tip-off in Qarr's phrasing about a spell in 630?

[Spoomeister]

There's a possible option V has, given how specifically Qarr phrased something in OOTS 630.

Qarr, Panel 5: "I'm only capable of transporting myself and 50 pounds of unliving material!"

Well... Xykon's bones, cape and crown can't weigh more than 50 pounds, can they...? :smallsmile:

[SteveMB]

The problem with that implied solution is

becoming a lich would take far too long, even if we assume that Qarr could do it at all.

[Optimystik]

SoD spoiler
It took Redcloak 4 months to turn Xykon into a lich, and that was with all the plants and chemicals he had available to work with in Lirian's druidic prison.
V doesn't have that kind of time OR the materials available.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm starting to see this theory a lot, but I don't buy it for a minute. Xykon cares about nothing but his own evil plan. Why would he rush to the rescue of some random elves who just happen to be related to an adventurer he once saw but almost certainly has no memory of?

I think the "non-living matter" thing was thrown in to demonstrate that Qarr can't just teleport in, grab the kids, and disappear again.

EDIT @ Optimystik & SteveMB: I don't think the OP's talking about Vaarsuvius becoming a lich, since he mentioned Qarr transporting the crown (which we know isn't related to lichdom in any way). A few people in the official discussion thread seem to think the solution is to go get help from Xykon.

[MickJay]

Interesting idea, but that would either mean getting Xykon to help V (what motivation would he have?) or V turning himself into a lich in a minute or two.

That Qarr can teleport 50 pounds will probably be significant - somehow - in the future, maybe even now, but I seriously doubt it will involve Xykon. Roy's bone golem would be more likely, even.

[Zherog]

I think the "non-living matter" thing was thrown in to demonstrate that Qarr can't just teleport in, grab the kids, and disappear again.

Or, it could've been "thrown in" because that's what the rules actually have in them.

I know Rich often tweaks the rules in favor of the story, but this is one instance (in my opinion, of course) where the rule favors the story. So it's worth mentioning it so everybody understands the circumstances, and it can build the tension of the situation higher.

[Optimystik]

EDIT @ Optimystik & SteveMB: I don't think the OP's talking about Vaarsuvius becoming a lich, since he mentioned Qarr transporting the crown (which we know isn't related to lichdom in any way). A few people in the official discussion thread seem to think the solution is to go get help from Xykon.

I can't speak for Steve, but I thought it was a (poor) attempt at reviving the "V becomes a lich" theory.

Anyway, Why CAN'T Qarr take him? You're allowed to carry one medium creature per 3 caster levels, and if Qarr had less than that he wouldn't be able to cast Charm Monster.

[Nimrod's Son]

I can't speak for Steve, but I thought it was a (poor) attempt at reviving the "V becomes a lich" theory.

Anyway, Why CAN'T Qarr take him? You're allowed to carry one medium creature per 3 caster levels, and if Qarr had less than that he wouldn't be able to cast Charm Monster.
Why can't Qarr take Xykon, you mean? For no other reason than Xykon wouldn't want to go. I doubt Qarr's powerful enough to forcibly abduct Xykon and then get him to do his bidding once they reach their destination - and as I said in my first post, why would Xykon volunteer to protect some elves he's never even heard of? Xykon only cares about world domination.

In fact, even if there were some reason why saving V's family would actively benefit him, Xykon is entirely likely to just sit back and watch, because dragons eating little kids is "funny".

[Zevox]

I can't speak for Steve, but I thought it was a (poor) attempt at reviving the "V becomes a lich" theory.

Anyway, Why CAN'T Qarr take him? You're allowed to carry one medium creature per 3 caster levels, and if Qarr had less than that he wouldn't be able to cast Charm Monster.
Because Quarr's not casting a spell, but using a racial ability. Most devils and demons have the ability to use Greater Teleport at will, but can only transport themselves and 50 pounds of objects with it (the Giant just rephrased "objects" to "nonliving material" - perhaps for some specific reason, perhaps simply because he remember the exact phrasing wrong). It is a bit odd, because Imps normally don't possess this ability, but apparently the Giant gave it to him anyway. House-rule I suppose.

Zevox

[Myou]

Gah, so many stupid lich suggestions. Does no-one know the rules for becoming a lich? Or even bother to look it up in the SRD?

Just crafting the phylactery alone makes it imposible. To make it you need a powerful spellcaster (level 11+), which Quarr is not, 120,000 gp, and nearly 5000 XP. This is before you even start the ritual.

Not the mention that becoming a lich is useless against the black dragon, because it's favourite tactic is to cast antimagic field and nullify the significant powers that lichdom brings.

And becoming a lich doen't magically restore spent spell slots either.

Or give you the ability to punch out a dragon.

[theMycon]

My first thoughts were "Kill the kids, really really fast, and transport there bodies back before the dragon can eat and/or soulbind them."

It'll at least keep them out of the dragon's hands long enough that they can't be bound to the gems, and thus they could be ressurected.

[Optimystik]

Why can't Qarr take Xykon, you mean?

What? Of course not. The post you quoted didn't even mention Xykon. I meant V, obviously. :smallsigh:


Because Quarr's not casting a spell, but using a racial ability. Most devils and demons have the ability to use Greater Teleport at will, but can only transport themselves and 50 pounds of objects with it (the Giant just rephrased "objects" to "nonliving material" - perhaps for some specific reason, perhaps simply because he remember the exact phrasing wrong). It is a bit odd, because Imps normally don't possess this ability, but apparently the Giant gave it to him anyway. House-rule I suppose.

Zevox

That's one hell of a houserule. Imp SLAs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) don't mention Teleport OR Charm Monster.

(Interesting fact: the post spell-check doesn't think "teleport" is a real word.)

[Nimrod's Son]

What? Of course not. The post you quoted didn't even mention Xykon.
No, but you only said "him", without any reference to who you meant. Since you were replying to my post where I did mention Xykon, I considered it a possibility that's who you were referring to. That's why I asked for clarification. Especially since...


Well... Xykon's bones, cape and crown can't weigh more than 50 pounds, can they...?
...seems to imply that the OP was suggesting Qarr bringing Xykon into the battle, doesn't it? If they actually meant that Vaarsuvius was going to become a lich, what does a crown have to do with anything?


I meant V, obviously. :smallsigh:
Well in that case, your answer is very definitely spelled out in the strip in question. Whether it's a house-rule or not, I have no way of knowing. I don't play D&D, see.

[Zevox]

That's one hell of a houserule. Imp SLAs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) don't mention Teleport OR Charm Monster.
Oh, Charm Monster was undoubtedly an actual spell. It's just teleport that the Giant gave him as a racial ability. That's the only time it comes with the "self + 50 lbs of objects" restriction he mentioned.


(Interesting fact: the post spell-check doesn't think "teleport" is a real word.)
Yeah, it seems that way with most forum spell-checks. You'd think it has made its way into the language well enough by now to be programmed into these things, but I guess not.

Zevox

[Revlid]

My first thoughts were "Kill the kids, really really fast, and transport there bodies back before the dragon can eat and/or soulbind them."

It'll at least keep them out of the dragon's hands long enough that they can't be bound to the gems, and thus they could be ressurected.

Oh, god.

That's horrifically plausible, the mental state V's in.

[Doug Lampert]

What? Of course not. The post you quoted didn't even mention Xykon. I meant V, obviously. :smallsigh:



That's one hell of a houserule. Imp SLAs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) don't mention Teleport OR Charm Monster.

(Interesting fact: the post spell-check doesn't think "teleport" is a real word.)

But both are common SLAs for fiends (and the 50lb restriction is standard for such fiends). And various shapechanging magics are also pretty common for fiends.

If Qarr is a houseruled creature then he's obviously higher CR than a standard imp, and both of the listed abilities are fairly common SLAs of higher CR fiends. It's not at all unlikely for a houseruled fiend to have both.

Qarr's behavior and power don't really match with that expected of an imp with enough sorcerer levels to cast Charm Monster and Teleport, such a creature is a non-negligable threat to characters of the order's general level, but Qarr acts like he's weak, which means houseruled fiend or shapeshifted more powerful (but still far weaker than the order) fiend is more likely.

[Optimystik]

No, but you only said "him", without any reference to who you meant.

"V becomes a lich" IS a reference.


Oh, Charm Monster was undoubtedly an actual spell. It's just teleport that the Giant gave him as a racial ability. That's the only time it comes with the "self + 50 lbs of objects" restriction he mentioned.

But if he can cast that, then he has arcane caster levels (sorcerer is most likely.) And once we accept that, casting teleport only requires 2 more than charm monster does.

If Teleport was an SLA for Qarr, why would he need to say "Teleport!" before activating it? From the SRD:


A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.

Therefore it seems to be a spell, in which case Qarr is lying to V. He may be LE, but I wouldn't put it past him to lie if it suited his purposes.

[MickJay]

My first thoughts were "Kill the kids, really really fast, and transport there bodies back before the dragon can eat and/or soulbind them."

It'll at least keep them out of the dragon's hands long enough that they can't be bound to the gems, and thus they could be ressurected.

Nasty, but very doable. Qarr could just kill one, bring it to V (or to a safe place) and return for the other one...

[King of Nowhere]

I see an easy solution: V can enter in a bag of holding to be teleported. You suffocate in such a bag, but it is explicitly written (in 3.0 at least) that you have air for 10 minutes. And at V's level, it is unlikely he's got no bags of holding, especially considering V has a STR penalty and must carry around some tons of books

[Spoomeister]

Er, guys, I meant bring X to V. And then V promises to help X with gate finding and gate knowledge.

Not turn V into an X and somehow beat the dragon to the house.

The pre-emptive strike theory on the kids is fantastically evil, and something I hadn't considered. Though, all that means is that the dragon goes back, figures out the kids aren't there or got tipped off, goes back to V, finds bodies and figures out something else to do. It's a hell of a wicked stalling tactic, and brutal, but the dragon would time their next return to catch V at a similar low point in prepped spells as to what V has now.

[TheSummoner]

I'm really favoring the "Kill the children and stash the bodies for resurection later" theory, but what about V's mate?

I know elves likely weigh much less than humans, but does a full grown elf (male or female) weigh 50 lbs or less? That plan might save V's children (kinda...) but there'd be nothing to stop the dragon from eating and soulbinding V's mate (unless elves really ARE that light...)

[Mauve Shirt]

No, if Qarr killed V's children and teleported them away to be resurrected, he'd undoubtedly hold them for ransom. V wouldn't do that.

[TheSummoner]

In V's desperation, I don't think he would consider Qarr holding the bodies ransom... assuming he thought of the kill and stash in the first place.

[Zevox]

But if he can cast that, then he has arcane caster levels (sorcerer is most likely.) And once we accept that, casting teleport only requires 2 more than charm monster does.

If Teleport was an SLA for Qarr, why would he need to say "Teleport!" before activating it? From the SRD:

Therefore it seems to be a spell, in which case Qarr is lying to V. He may be LE, but I wouldn't put it past him to lie if it suited his purposes.
Come on now Optimystik, why would he lie in this situation? He needs to help V to get her indebted to him, that much is clear. If he could teleport her the way she wants, he would, because that suits his purposes at the moment. And the reference to teleporting only himself and 50 lbs of objects is equally very clearly a reference to the common racial ability among demons and devils. The implications there are quite clear.

And all the explanation him saying "teleport" requires is that the Giant has his characters say the names of those abilities even when they're racial abilities, so we know what they're doing. You know full well that the Giant only cares about the specifics of the rules when its convenient for the story or jokes, so why is this at all hard to believe?

Zevox

[Corwin Weber]

Ok..... so here's a possible solution to V's problem.....



Quarr teleports to what's left of Azure City. Teleports himself and Xykon to V's house. (Nothing is said about a teleport subject having to consent to being teleported.)

Best case scenario, MamaDragon does something that annoys Xykon enough that she gets obliterated, and he ignores the kids and mate. They're no threat, and probably not annoying him. After MamaDragon is dead, Quarr immediately teleports back to Azure City with Xykon before he notices/does something nasty to the kids and mate. Quarr then pops back to V.

Worst case scenario, Xykon destroys everything including kids and mate.... or as someone else suggested sits back and watches because he finds it funny.... but V might feel it was worth the risk.

I mean, assuming it works, what's gonna happen? He's going to piss off Xykon?

[Optimystik]

Come on now Optimystik,

You know, I always imagine the most patronizing voice possible when I read opening phrases like that. It doesn't make your arguments any more convincing.


why would he lie in this situation? He needs to help V to get her indebted to him, that much is clear. If he could teleport her the way she wants, he would, because that suits his purposes at the moment. And the reference to teleporting only himself and 50 lbs of objects is equally very clearly a reference to the common racial ability among demons and devils. The implications there are quite clear.

Ah, but once he teleports him to Aarindarius, why would he need the imp's help anymore? (Unless they both banned Conjuration, in which case they're both too dumb to live.) Qarr is savvy enough to realize that.

I'm not saying you're wrong - teleport being an SLA IS the most likely answer - I'm merely pointing out that I don't trust Qarr for a second, and neither should V (even if he's forced to work with the imp.)


And all the explanation him saying "teleport" requires is that the Giant has his characters say the names of those abilities even when they're racial abilities, so we know what they're doing. You know full well that the Giant only cares about the specifics of the rules when its convenient for the story or jokes, so why is this at all hard to believe?

Zevox

Of course that's likely the answer, but it doesn't mean my theory is incorrect. Far less plausible trees have sprouted in the fertile grounds of these boards.

And we both know what makes soil fertile... :smallwink:

[The Neoclassic]

If Teleport was an SLA for Qarr, why would he need to say "Teleport!" before activating it?


And all the explanation him saying "teleport" requires is that the Giant has his characters say the names of those abilities even when they're racial abilities, so we know what they're doing.

Seems less ridiculous than rogues yelling "Sneak attack!" which they tend to be fond of doing. :smallwink: Of course, actually needing to say it is a different matter, but you get my point.

[kusje]

No, if Qarr killed V's children and teleported them away to be resurrected, he'd undoubtedly hold them for ransom. V wouldn't do that.

True resurrection.

[Optimystik]

Ok..... so here's a possible solution to V's problem.....



Quarr teleports to what's left of Azure City. Teleports himself and Xykon to V's house. (Nothing is said about a teleport subject having to consent to being teleported.)

Best case scenario, MamaDragon does something that annoys Xykon enough that she gets obliterated, and he ignores the kids and mate. They're no threat, and probably not annoying him. After MamaDragon is dead, Quarr immediately teleports back to Azure City with Xykon before he notices/does something nasty to the kids and mate. Quarr then pops back to V.

Worst case scenario, Xykon destroys everything including kids and mate.... or as someone else suggested sits back and watches because he finds it funny.... but V might feel it was worth the risk.

I mean, assuming it works, what's gonna happen? He's going to piss off Xykon?


Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Teleport.htm) specifies that creatures must be willing, and attended objects receive a saving throw. Since undead are creatures, there's a fatal flaw in your plan.

EDIT: Did I really ding Bugbear on this drivel? :smallannoyed:

[Zevox]

You know, I always imagine the most patronizing voice possible when I read opening phrases like that. It doesn't make your arguments any more convincing.
You do? Odd. I meant it to sound friendly. Guess we just have different impressions of the phrase.


Ah, but once he teleports him to Aarindarius, why would he need the imp's help anymore? (Unless they both banned Conjuration, in which case they're both too dumb to live.) Qarr is savvy enough to realize that.
Perhaps, perhaps not. The most recent strip doesn't exactly give me a high impression of Quarr's intellect. He needed V to explain to him in detail why the fleet couldn't intercept the Dragon, and didn't catch the sarcasm on the Hobbit reference joke even though it involved attacking the dragon with a pastry.

In any event, that problem is going to be an issue almost no matter what Quarr does - he has to depend on V being willing to pay him back for his aid. Unless he gets really lucky and winds up with a hostage situation the way some posters have suggested, and personally I doubt that.


I'm not saying you're wrong - teleport being an SLA IS the most likely answer - I'm merely pointing out that I don't trust Qarr for a second, and neither should V (even if he's forced to work with the imp.)
Of course she shouldn't. But she doesn't exactly have much choice at the moment.


Of course that's likely the answer, but it doesn't mean my theory is incorrect. Far less plausible trees have sprouted in the fertile grounds of these boards.

And we both know what makes soil fertile... :smallwink:
Sadly, yes. But of course, when have those less plausible epileptic trees ever turned out to be correct?

Zevox

[TheSummoner]

I don't trust Qarr for a second, and neither should V (even if he's forced to work with the imp.)

While I agree 100% that no one should trust Qarr, given the choice between having your children and likely mate as well killed with 0 chance of getting them back even in a world where resurection makes death undoable, or associating with a shady character for a chance to save them, the choice is pretty clear.

[Corwin Weber]

Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Teleport.htm) specifies that creatures must be willing, and attended objects receive a saving throw. Since undead are creatures, there's a fatal flaw in your plan.

EDIT: Did I really ding Bugbear on this drivel? :smallannoyed:

I don't have an online cite, (I'm pretty sure even if I could find one it would probably be copyright infringement) but....

...targets didn't have to be willing in second edition.

[Myou]

I see an easy solution: V can enter in a bag of holding to be teleported. You suffocate in such a bag, but it is explicitly written (in 3.0 at least) that you have air for 10 minutes. And at V's level, it is unlikely he's got no bags of holding, especially considering V has a STR penalty and must carry around some tons of books

Haley had all the bags of holding.

And V would still be alive inside the bag, meaning Quarr couldn't take him as Quarr can't take living matter at all.


I don't have an online cite, (I'm pretty sure even if I could find one it would probably be copyright infringement) but....

...targets didn't have to be willing in second edition.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:System_Reference_Document

[lord_khaine]

True resurrection.

the problem here is that we have neither seen nor heard of anyone able to cast 9th lv cleric spells yet.

[Porthos]

True resurrection.

What an excellent suggestion. V should just pop down to his local Rez-Ur-Buddy franchise outlet and....

... Oh wait. You mean V can't pop down to the corner store and order True Resurrections like they were so much candy?

Huh.

Never would have known that judging by some of the comments on this board.

Good thing V (and the rest of the PCs) can always get a Wish spell or five whenever he wants, eh? :smallamused:

Small bit of commentary::::
Having the PCs get regular access to Ninth level spells is just a wee bit harder in this campagin than it apparently is in others.

Just a wee bit, that is. :smalltongue:

EDIT:: I see I was ninja'd. That's fine. My comment was funnier. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

And V would still be alive inside the bag, meaning Quarr couldn't take him as Quarr can't take living matter at all.


The interior of a Bag of Holding is an extraplanar space--the bag itself is essentially just a portal between the Prime Material and that extraplanar space, which is why it can hold much more than it should and why the contents don't affect the weight of the bag. Thus, Qarr would be teleporting a nonliving object (the bag) from one place to another, perfectly possible within the rules.

[awibs]

The interior of a Bag of Holding is an extraplanar space--the bag itself is essentially just a portal between the Prime Material and that extraplanar space, which is why it can hold much more than it should and why the contents don't affect the weight of the bag. Thus, Qarr would be teleporting a nonliving object (the bag) from one place to another, perfectly possible within the rules.

Makes total sense. The bag is more of a "door" than a "bag," really. Nothing is inside it for the sake of carrying it any more than you can be "inside" a door itself - only inside the room the door leads to. So it's more like taking an enchanted surreleast door off it's posts and setting it up someplace else.

if you've never seen surrealist works with random doors situated in the middle of nowhere that lead to alternate-plane type things:

http://dayya.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/untitledsalvador-dali.jpg
http://www.leninimports.com/f927-magritte.jpg
http://www.space-art.co.uk/images/artwork/surrealism/Beyond-Magrittes-Door.jpg
http://arcadauniao.org/img/edicoes/Image/2007/09/MagritteDoor.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/101219669_6872995f50.jpg?v=0

[King of Nowhere]

Haley had all the bags of holding.
Haley has about 8 bags of holding, but it was never stated that V doesn't have one. I suppose all hir books weight enough to need one to carry, especially considering V's STR penalty.
But in the end this will be dictated by plot necessity

[Totally Guy]

Maybe Qaar knows Grubwiggler and he could buy a golem for their cause. He could teleport that.

But a flesh golem might be too heavy. So make it a bone golem.:smalltongue:

Then maybe it could dress up as Xykon. :smalltongue:

[Droopy]

50 pounds of items inscribed with explosive runes and a cunning ruse to make the dragon read them. You just know Other Parent has enough prepared. :smalltongue:

That's just how V rolls.

[Optimystik]

I don't have an online cite, (I'm pretty sure even if I could find one it would probably be copyright infringement) but....

...targets didn't have to be willing in second edition.

The comic is under 3.5 edition rules, numerous characters have stated this.


50 pounds of items inscribed with explosive runes and a cunning ruse to make the dragon read them. You just know Other Parent has enough prepared. :smalltongue:

That's just how V rolls.

Somehow I don't think the citizens of Ivyleaf would appreciate the runic equivalent of C4 being teleported into their town... especially with just one family in danger from the dragon. :smalltongue:

[Corwin Weber]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corwin Weber View Post
I don't have an online cite, (I'm pretty sure even if I could find one it would probably be copyright infringement) but....

...targets didn't have to be willing in second edition.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sys...rence_Document


That link is specifically for 3.5. Already looked for a Second Edition SRD, there isn't one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Corwin Weber View Post
I don't have an online cite, (I'm pretty sure even if I could find one it would probably be copyright infringement) but....

...targets didn't have to be willing in second edition.
The comic is under 3.5 edition rules, numerous characters have stated this.


You might want to mention that to Zz'Dtri (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html). For that matter you might want to mention it to Haley's father or the Dirt Farmer. Or Durkon.

The comic is editions 1-4 inclusive, as Giant sees fit. There have been elements of all four editions in the comic, although the primary setup is 3.5, yes. For Quarr to have a houseruled second edition spell or special ability would hardly be impossible, especially given how much latitude we've seen with fiendish abilities in particular. (Look at how much trouble people have had actually identifying Sabine's species.... sure, I'll agree she's most likely an Eryine, but she's got abilities they don't.)

[Flickerdart]

And how exactly do you plan to have Qarr teleport to a place he's never seen? The dragon has scried there several times and has Greater Teleport. V lived there for a long time. Qarr has neither thing and only normal Teleport.

[Corwin Weber]

And how exactly do you plan to have Qarr teleport to a place he's never seen? The dragon has scried there several times and has Greater Teleport. V lived there for a long time. Qarr has neither thing and only normal Teleport.

He only actually needs a description. Not having actually been there before, or at least scried the place does cut his chance of success a bit, but it's still possible.

However, I suspect the entire discussion just got rendered moot.

[Optimystik]

The comic is editions 1-4 inclusive, as Giant sees fit. There have been elements of all four editions in the comic, although the primary setup is 3.5, yes. For Quarr to have a houseruled second edition spell or special ability would hardly be impossible, especially given how much latitude we've seen with fiendish abilities in particular. (Look at how much trouble people have had actually identifying Sabine's species.... sure, I'll agree she's most likely an Eryine, but she's got abilities they don't.)

The majority of the universe is 3.5, so any logical predictions tend to follow those lines. You can open up 4 editions worth of rules to every theory if you like, I'll stick with Occam's Razor.