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kalt
2009-02-12, 02:55 PM
Okay I could use a little help on a 7th level cleric build. I typically go the battle cleric route, but the player(not myself I'm rockin an Egoist) for some odd reason wants to be a battery. I figure if we face undead it could have its uses and hell good healing is nice too. So I'm thinking what would be the best route to just build an ultimate healer? He likes radiant servant, which seems like a decent route for the free metamagics that radiant servant gets to healing. As a base class I dunno Cloistered cleric? Feats wise the only one that is banned is persistant spell. So can someone give me a little help. I'm at work so I can't check the optimization site otherwise that would have probably helped me. This character will be played from 7-21 or so. I appreciate the help in advance. All books are open no magazines are allowed. Paizo products are allowed as well.

Thanks,
Steve

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-12, 03:05 PM
No Persistant Spell. Dang. The best healing combo is Persisted Chained Lesser Vigor. Healing is poor, see if you can get the DM to allow Persist just for him, or houserule a Healer to get Spont Casting.

In-combat healing is rather weak, but metamagics can help(Chained, Split Ray, Maximize/Empower). Out-of-Combat, Eternal(or normal) Wands of Lesser Vigor can get everyone up and running in a few minutes while you walk. Scrolls of the morning-after spells(Remove Curse, Flesh to Stone) are also pretty nice for emergencies, and he can even memorize a few due to Spont Cure. Grab the Reserve Feat Touch of Healing to save on wands, and grab a few healing-boost feats(C.Champ and Divine, IIRC). It won't be great, but the party will like it.

Telonius
2009-02-12, 03:29 PM
Radiant Servant is on the money. But if he goes into Celestial Mystic (BoED), level 10 will give him an aura of Fast Healing. Personally I'd say that's gotta be up there for ultimate heal-bot.
Augment Healing from Complete Divine helps, as does Sacred Healing (CDiv).

sonofzeal
2009-02-12, 03:32 PM
I played a Healer in a recent campaign, and it worked pretty well with a few houserules - tied spellcasting to Charisma (to line up with class features), added spontaneous cures as cleric, and an appropriately expanded spell list using SC and a few other sources. The Healer class is really weak because, as written, it lacks options. However, with a bit of optimizing you can get reeeeally big numbers on your cure spells, enough to make in-combat healing far more effective than it could otherwise be.

As for optimizing - Cloudy Conjuration is great for some added utility (since most cure spells are Conjurations), Augment Healing is necessary, Vow of Peace is badass (but check with your party first, and check how legalistic your DM is; the vow isn't actually that restrictive as written, so RAW-adherence works in your favour here). Standard Diplomacy-boosting tricks work well (especially if you move casting to Cha), and Healers would get excellent social prestige and respect, so cash in on that in NPC interactions! Play the good guy - not the "smite evil rawrg" ways of a paladin, but the empathetic and understanding counselor. Really, the "counselor" archetype is the one I played up the most, and it worked. I was the one people generally turned to when they were confused or frightened IC. There were a couple characters who didn't get along with me (one was trigger-happy, other was singularly dedicated to evil), but generally speaking I think it's safe to say that my Healer was the "leader" of the party.

And, when you're party leader, are shaping combat with Calm Emotions and Diplomacy, are well-respected and liked by PCs and NPCs alike... it doesn't really matter so much that you can't lay out damage or disarm traps or warp the fabric of reality. There's other ways to play this game.

PrismaticPIA
2009-02-12, 04:54 PM
Radiant Servant is on the money. But if he goes into Celestial Mystic (BoED), level 10 will give him an aura of Fast Healing. Personally I'd say that's gotta be up there for ultimate heal-bot.
Augment Healing from Complete Divine helps, as does Sacred Healing (CDiv).

Celestial Mystic's aura is nice, but the Sacred Healing feat (CDiv) accomplishes the same thing for a turning charge.

Having play RSoP on several occasions, I can tell you it's really the way to go for healers. Domain Spontaneity turns any spell on your list into a domain healing spell.

Alternatively, if your dm allows it (and most won't) take the Saint template. That coupled with Sacred Healing means not only will you never have to cast a healing spell...ever, but you can play decoy and laugh at the big baddy's attempts to hit you, while your party wrecks him.

Third option is the Combat Medic from Heros of Battle has some nifty trinkets like Evasion and tacking Sanctuary onto a healing spell for free. Not quite as powerful as RSoP , but it has good flavor.

Assassin89
2009-02-12, 05:13 PM
If the cleric prefers using cure spells, augment healing from Complete Divine would be a suggested feat, as it gives +2 per spell level. meaning that cure light wounds heals a maximum of 1d8+7

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-12, 05:39 PM
My suggestion:

Go with a Cleric with the Healing and Sun domains. Grab the PhB II variant to Spontaneously cast from a domain instead of spontaneous cures. Choose the Healing domain. Trust me, it's much better, because it nets you spontaneous Heal spells.

Now go into Radiant Servant of Pelor. Since you are spontaneously casting your domain spells, ALL your spontaneously cast cure spells are affected by the empower/maximize.

We're not done yet... :smallbiggrin:

Okay, now we grab Chain Spell and Divine Metamagic (Chain Spell). Every time you blow four Turn attempts, you cast a spell as though it were Chained. So now you can spontaneously cast Chain Heal for 150 to all allies (because Chain Spell specifically states it halves DAMAGE on secondary targets, not healing :smallbiggrin:) As a 6th level slot, you effectively have Mass Heal whenever you want.

But wait! DMM Chain Spell can be used for SO MUCH MORE!

Now what you want to do is gather the whole group together for a morning 'prayer session'. DMM Chain Greater Magic Weapon. Now everyone's weapon hits a little harder, which means NO ONE has to have more than a +1 on their weapon, so they can get further enhancements.

If you take Reach Spell, you can do the same with DMM Chain Reach Magic Vestments to everyone's armor and shields.

And, with RSoP, you've got like TONS of turn attempts. First, you need Extra Turning anyways, then you have the extra pool of Greater Turning attempts on top of that you can use. Blow your regular turns first, of course, so in the event you DO run into undead, they'll be dusted first round.

You will also eventually be able to use the Reach/DMM Chain combo on things like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement for those situations when you've got a lot of those kinds of Save or Loose type effects heading your way, and you need to cover the party in one shot.

Paul H
2009-02-12, 07:51 PM
Hi

The problem with Divine Metamagic Chain Spell is the number of feats you need to take (Extend Spell, Chain Spell & DMM CHain Spell), and the four turning attempts needed per spell chained.

My choices would be:

1) RSoP with Augment Healing & Sacred Healing. Extra healing from bonus Empowered, Maximised & Augmented healing. Use your Turn attempts to create a 60' burst Fast Healing, based on your charisma.

2) Cleric/Eldritch Disciple. Again, use your Turn attempts to convert your Eldritch Blasts into Healing Blasts. Soon you can chain your blasts onto secondary targets. Later you can create cones of Eldritch Healing.

Don't forget you can take Point Blank Shot, Wpn Focus Eldritch Blast & Wpn Specialisation Eldritch Blast to increase chance hitting & damage/healing done.

Also, there's items from the Magic Item Compendium, such as Healing Belts. (750gp) They have 3 charges, renewing each day. One charge is 2D8 healing, 2 charges 3D8, 3 charges 4D8.

Cheers
Paul H

Kaihaku
2009-02-12, 08:41 PM
The Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle is probably the single most useful PRC for a healer and it's only 5 levels. The Healing Kicker abilities allows you to link benefits such as maximized aid, a high-dc sanctuary, or a bonus to reflex saves to your healing spells. It also nets you Evasion and some mobility.

Maximize your Heal check and take Healing Lorecall from CAdv. It boosts your casting level for healing spells but more importantly allows you to use any healing spell to remove certain status effects (which is extremely handy).

Take the Hierophant PRC in Epic levels. The loss of spell progression no longer matters, your caster level improves, and it makes touch spells reach, which is extremely useful.

I've found, personally, that spontaneous divine casting is preferable to prepared for a healer role. I used a Mystic (Dragonlance) which only allows one Domain but spells from that Domain can be cast as often as you have spell slots. Favored Soul is a better class than Mystic but without a Domain.

Divine Champion offers some cheesy abilities for healers that you might find useful.

Useful Spells for a Healer
The most useful are bolded.

Level 1.

Resurgence(CDiv p177)

Updraft (SC p228) [Any mobility spells are very useful for a healer]

Level 2.

Close Wounds (SC p48) [The first real lifesaver]

Elation(BoED p98)

Stabilize (SC p204) [Awesome in conjunction with Healing Kickers, not so great otherwise.]

Level 3.

Vigor, Mass Lesser(CDiv p186)

Resist Energy, Mass(CArc p120) [Versatile and useful.]

Level 4.

Status, Greater(BoED p100) [Great for when you split up]

[b]Delay Death(RoD p165) [Another real life saver]

Panacea (SC)

[b]Resurgence, Mass(CDiv p177) [Very handy]

Level 5.

Revivify [A life saver.]

Monstrous Regeneration(MoF p109)(MoFe)+ [Better than Delay Death, an awesome spell and life saver]

Level 6.

Vigorous Circle(CDiv p187) [Good for out of combat healing]

Word of Recall(PH p303) [Great for emergencies]


Okay, now we grab Chain Spell and Divine Metamagic (Chain Spell). Every time you blow four Turn attempts, you cast a spell as though it were Chained. So now you can spontaneously cast Chain Heal for 150 to all allies (because Chain Spell specifically states it halves DAMAGE on secondary targets, not healing :smallbiggrin:) As a 6th level slot, you effectively have Mass Heal whenever you want.

Have you ever actually tried said build? Because Chain Spell specifically states that it only affects "A spell with a single target whose range is greater than touch." Good idea otherwise.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-12, 09:11 PM
Ultimate healer, ignoring all else, at 7th, all WotC sources?

Let's see...
Class: Cleric (or Cloistered Cleric, Unearthed Arcana)
Human
Feats:
1: Extend Spell (core)
HB: Extra Turning (core)
3: Persistent Spell (Complete Divine)
6: Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) (Complete Divine)

Assuming a Charisma of 10, this gives you just enough to use DMM(Persistent Spell) once per day. The spell? Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium, Cleric-3). One creature per 2 levels gains Fast Healing 1 for the duration - which, thanks to Persistent Spell, is all day. At 7th, that's three characters (unless you can swing a boost to your caster level).

Nifty items:
Nightstick (Libris Mortis). Depending on reading, either gives you four extra turning attempts, or gives you four extra turning attempts per nightstick.

Variations:
Flaws (Unearthed Arcana): Take two flaws, use for more copies of Extra Turning. It takes seven turning attempts to power Divine Metamagic(Persistant Spell), and each copy of Extra Turning gives you four.
Domains: Undeath and Planning give you Extra Turning and Extend Spell as bonus feats as their domain powers (respectively). Extra Turning is used to the same effect as the flaws, Extend Spell replaces taking Extend Spell as a actual feat, freeing up another feat for Extra Turning. While Fast Healing all day is nice, it's also nifty to Persist such spells as Recitation (Spell Compendium), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium), Elation (Book of Exalted Deeds), or (later on) one of the alignment auras.

Note: Sources are from memory, and may be off in a few cases.

Deth Muncher
2009-02-12, 09:17 PM
Ultimate healer, ignoring all else, at 7th, all WotC sources?

Let's see...
Class: Cleric (or Cloistered Cleric, Unearthed Arcana)
Human
Feats:
1: Extend Spell (core)
HB: Extra Turning (core)
3: Persistent Spell (Complete Divine)
6: Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) (Complete Divine)

Assuming a Charisma of 10, this gives you just enough to use DMM(Persistent Spell) once per day. The spell? Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium, Cleric-3). One creature per 2 levels gains Fast Healing 1 for the duration - which, thanks to Persistent Spell, is all day. At 7th, that's three characters (unless you can swing a boost to your caster level).

Nifty items:
Nightstick (Libris Mortis). Depending on reading, either gives you four extra turning attempts, or gives you four extra turning attempts per nightstick.

Variations:
Flaws (Unearthed Arcana): Take two flaws, use for more copies of Extra Turning. It takes seven turning attempts to power Divine Metamagic(Persistant Spell), and each copy of Extra Turning gives you four.
Domains: Undeath and Planning give you Extra Turning and Extend Spell as bonus feats as their domain powers (respectively). Extra Turning is used to the same effect as the flaws, Extend Spell replaces taking Extend Spell as a actual feat, freeing up another feat for Extra Turning. While Fast Healing all day is nice, it's also nifty to Persist such spells as Recitation (Spell Compendium), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium), Elation (Book of Exalted Deeds), or (later on) one of the alignment auras.

Note: Sources are from memory, and may be off in a few cases.


Okay I could use a little help on a 7th level cleric build. I typically go the battle cleric route, but the player(not myself I'm rockin an Egoist) for some odd reason wants to be a battery. I figure if we face undead it could have its uses and hell good healing is nice too. So I'm thinking what would be the best route to just build an ultimate healer? He likes radiant servant, which seems like a decent route for the free metamagics that radiant servant gets to healing. As a base class I dunno Cloistered cleric? Feats wise the only one that is banned is persistant spell. So can someone give me a little help. I'm at work so I can't check the optimization site otherwise that would have probably helped me. This character will be played from 7-21 or so. I appreciate the help in advance. All books are open no magazines are allowed. Paizo products are allowed as well.

Thanks,
Steve

Emphasis mine.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-12, 09:42 PM
Emphasis mine.
Ah, drat. Oh well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-12, 09:48 PM
Hi

The problem with Divine Metamagic Chain Spell is the number of feats you need to take (Extend Spell, Chain Spell & DMM CHain Spell), and the four turning attempts needed per spell chained. Incorrect. Prerequsite for Chain Spell is ANY Metamagic Spell. You don't have to take Extend Spell. In fact, please don't, it's a gimmick. By the time you can afford the higher spell level, you no longer need it. GMW and MV both have hours/level durations.

Besides, Feats are there to be taken. With a human, you can easily grab DMM Chain by 6th level, if you REALLY wanted to. However, by that same token, you can't get into Eldritch Disciple without possible multiclass penalties (unless you're taking Human as your race) and even then, you won't be able to pull off said combos for many levels yet.

And every single one of the options you presented also blow turn attempts. As a RSoP, he's got ANOTHER pool of Greater Turn Attempts, plus Extra Turning feat required by the class, so it's not like he's going to be hurting for turn attempts.

Furthermore, the build I propose scales MUCH better as you level, eventually becoming BuffZilla which makes the entire party immune to YES via Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, and (if he takes the Protection domain as his bonus domain) Mind Blank sent to the whole party via DMM Chain Spell.

Kaihaku
2009-02-12, 10:24 PM
Furthermore, the build I propose scales MUCH better as you level, eventually becoming BuffZilla which makes the entire party immune to YES via Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, and (if he takes the Protection domain as his bonus domain) Mind Blank sent to the whole party via DMM Chain Spell.

Only Mind Blank, the other two are Touch spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-12, 10:24 PM
Only Mind Blank, the other two are Touch spells.

Hence the Reach Spell that I mentioned... and can be the prerequsite for Chain Spell :smallwink:

Kaihaku
2009-02-12, 10:26 PM
Hence the Reach Spell that I mentioned... and can be the prerequsite for Chain Spell :smallwink:

Cheesy, but if the DM will allow it why not.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-12, 11:16 PM
Cheesy, but if the DM will allow it why not.

Reach gives a range greater than Touch, which is all that is required for Chain Spell... it works by RAW, anyways :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2009-02-12, 11:32 PM
The Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle is probably the single most useful PRC for a healer and it's only 5 levels. The Healing Kicker abilities allows you to link benefits such as maximized aid, a high-dc sanctuary, or a bonus to reflex saves to your healing spells. It also nets you Evasion and some mobility.

Agreed. I had a Favored Soul/Combat Medic who used the PHB-II's Favored Soul alt class feature who was a buffing/healing machine.

jeek
2009-02-13, 05:16 AM
Five levels of Binder plus the Improved Binding feat (which you can use the Binder's fourth level bonus feat to acquire) gets you access to Buer, which will let you heal 1d8+7 every five rounds, in additional to delaying disease in all allies within 30 ft, and being immune to disease.

You just have to spend 2-3 minutes outdoors summoning her each morning, lead off with a nonlethal attack every time you start in on a new opponent, and never coup de grace.... but only if you **** up the DC 20 Charisma check (which you get +7 on, if I understand the rules correctly)

The character has quite a few other options available to it if you decide not to be a healer for a day, as well.

jcsw
2009-02-13, 05:39 AM
Fast Healing 3:
Bind Tenebrous for 1 free turning attempt every five rounds, combine with Divine Healing in Complete Divine.

jeek
2009-02-13, 06:49 AM
Fast Healing 3:
Bind Tenebrous for 1 free turning attempt every five rounds, combine with Divine Healing in Complete Divine.

Binding Buer also gives you Fast Healing 1. If you advance the Binder class up to level 10, it becomes Fast Healing 2. 3 @ 13, 4 @ 16, 5 @ 19

At level 8, you also gain the ability to have two vestiges at once, increasing your flexibility dramatically.

kalt
2009-02-13, 09:08 AM
Okay I'm really liking the feedback guys. To be a little different I think we will go Cloistered cleric. What level can you get into the Combat Medic(prereqs)? Sadly I'm on the road until later this evening so I'm AFB. So how does something like Cloistered Cleric X/RSOP X/Combat Medic X?

Sorry for not stating that Flaws aren't allowed. DMM is damn nice, but was just hoping we could move away from it a little bit since it is just so commonly used.


Feats
1 Extend Spell (heck I figure if the guy isn't healing there are still tons of nice spells one can extend)
1 H - Extra Turning
3 Augment Healing
6 Sacred Healing
9 Reach Spell
12 Quicken Spell
15 Free
18 Free

What level can one get into RSoP?

Thanks

Assassin89
2009-02-13, 11:42 AM
A cleric that reaches 6th level has the necessary base will save of +5, and can obtain the 9 ranks in in knowledge(religion).

This means that the minimum level for RSoP is 6th level.

Andrew

jcsw
2009-02-13, 12:02 PM
Binding Buer also gives you Fast Healing 1. If you advance the Binder class up to level 10, it becomes Fast Healing 2. 3 @ 13, 4 @ 16, 5 @ 19

At level 8, you also gain the ability to have two vestiges at once, increasing your flexibility dramatically.

The feat gives AoE fast healing and is doable way before 13th level.

Kantolin
2009-02-13, 04:45 PM
The PHB2 has a feat which is called 'Sacred Healing' (And is different from the identically named 'Sacred Healing' feat from the complete divine). This feat is almost strictly worse than Augment healing.

(The healing bonus is '+2 bonus per die', which for most healing spells is the same as '+2 bonus per spell level', except Sacred Healing doesn't work on the spell 'heal' as there are no die involved, it sucks for a few non-typical spells that have fewer die than their level, and it takes a turn attempt every time).

Buut, it does stack with Augment healing, and using both simultaneously results in quite more healing when you absolutely need it in a pinch, so hey. Just for the option. :P

It also leads to sacred purification, which heals everyone within 60ft (ally and enemy) for 1d8 + charisma bonus, which strikes me as a poor idea sans stabalization, so nevermind that.

Telonius
2009-02-13, 04:49 PM
Though it is nice if you're fighting the undead hordes.

jeek
2009-02-14, 07:23 AM
The feat gives AoE fast healing and is doable way before 13th level.

That does seem pretty good, just be wary of DMs that won't let you use a temporarily-gained ability (Tenebrous's Turning) to qualify for a feat. You may have to bite the bullet and take a level of a class that actually has turning.

Thurbane
2009-02-14, 06:49 PM
Would a Favored Soul, loaded up with healing spells and feats, be a better healer, or does DMM give Clerics the edge?

Eldariel
2009-02-14, 06:58 PM
Cleric is a prepared caster and thus casts one level earlier; with Spontaneous Domain: Healing, Cleric casts all Healing-spells spontaneously including Heal and has other stuff like turning, a second domain, better PrC access (RSoP, Contemplative, etc.) and such going on for him. Cleric takes the cake, easily even.

Kaihaku
2009-02-14, 07:11 PM
Cleric is a prepared caster and thus casts one level earlier; with Spontaneous Domain: Healing, Cleric casts all Healing-spells spontaneously including Heal and has other stuff like turning, a second domain, better PrC access (RSoP, Contemplative, etc.) and such going on for him. Cleric takes the cake, easily even.

Not all Healing-spells, just the core Healing spells - most of which are fairly crappy. The Cure chain is particularly unspectacular. Clerics can spontaneously cast Cure spells anyway so Spontaneous Domain(Healing) only nets you three-four spells. Not that wonderful.

What hurts the Favored Soul is the lack of Turning. Turning can give you more actions a turn which is what a healer really needs, the ability to drop a Quickened spell in an emergency. That's the advantage of taking a prepared casting class. I forgot as I had been playing a spontaneous caster but the other advantage of Combat Medic for a prepared caster is being able to spontaneously cast Heal, even using spell slots from different levels.

The lose of Domains hurts spell versatility but if you're going primarily a healer you already have access to all the spells you need. Vigor, Monstrous Regeneration, Close Wounds, Pancea, Healing Lorecall, etc.

FinalJustice
2009-02-14, 07:30 PM
[Not exactly related]
What if one could pull off a Hellfire Warlock/Eldritch Disciple? Could he use the power of the Fires of Hell™ to heal people better?
[/Not exactly related]

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-14, 10:53 PM
[Not exactly related]
What if one could pull off a Hellfire Warlock/Eldritch Disciple? Could he use the power of the Fires of Hell™ to heal people better?
[/Not exactly related]

NO, but you can use the Warlock with the gimped 'I'm a good guy' PrC to provide infinite healing when combined with Leadership for a Warlock Cohort...

Kaihaku
2009-02-14, 11:05 PM
A nice option for a Healer, which I've done, is to take the Time domain and link free-action Contingencies to healing spells. You could also, as I've done, take the Craft Contingent Spell feat for a more costly but permanent effect along those lines.

FinalJustice
2009-02-15, 12:48 PM
NO, but you can use the Warlock with the gimped 'I'm a good guy' PrC to provide infinite healing when combined with Leadership for a Warlock Cohort...

Why? The Hellfire Blast enhances the Eldritch Blast damage and the Eldritch Theurge converts that damage into healing? Any wording or hidden box I ignored?