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Seatbelt
2009-02-12, 03:28 PM
On spells like Weapon of Energy.. or Energize Weapon (I forget. 3rd level spell, grants the burst property to a weapon), essentially any spell that adds additional damage to a weapon, can you empower those spells? For further cheese, could I metamagic such spells with Fell Drain, and have each melee attack impose a negative level?

And on a related note. I rolled up a gish and took the focused specialist ability, and banned Illusion, Enchantment, and Evocation. But then I noticed Herosim/Greater Heroism and thought it would be an amazing spell to be able to cast. But none of the rest of the enchantment spells really did it for me. Would it be worth it to ban conjuration or necromancy instead of Enchantment only for those two spells?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-12, 03:35 PM
Would it be worth it to ban conjuration abjuration or necromancy instead of Enchantment only for those two spells?Necromancy has some of the best debuffs in the game. It's bannable, but iffy. Abjuration is much better to lose, especially if you have a Cleric in the party. Most of the good Abj spells are Divine. Conj is universally considered unbannable. It's got too many good effects.

Why'd you lose Illusion? It replaces your AC at fairly early levels, and continues to be your best defense until scrying takes it's place.

Nohwl
2009-02-12, 03:35 PM
its only 2 spells, and conjuration has more useful spells. you can do it if you want, but i wouldnt.

Eldariel
2009-02-12, 03:55 PM
The reasons you should never ban Conjuration:
-Teleportation
-Best area-of-effect debuffs & area control spells (think Grease, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Stone, etc.)
-Planar Binding-line (some of the most powerful spells in D&D)
-Some great mobility (think Phantom Steed)
-Maze
-The most reliable single target damage spells (Orbs; especially Orb of Force is very worthwhile vs. e.g. Dragons)


Specialize in it, don't ban it. It's easily the strongest school alongside Transmutation with a crapton of irreplaceable stuff and some of the most powerful non-broken spells in Wizard's repertoire (Transmutation has Polymorphs; banning that line weakens the school quite a bit - that said, it's still great even after those bannings).

valadil
2009-02-12, 04:30 PM
I see no reason why you couldn't empower your burst effect. I'd even argue that a character with energize weapon, empower spell, and item crafting feats could create a permanently empowered bursting weaopn.

Regarding your gish, what is his role in the party? Is he a tank that self buffs to make up for missing fighter levels or a caster that just happens to be pretty durable? What else is in your party? If you're not expected to be the primary arcane caster, you can probably get away with less optimal school selection.

Gishes usually have a lower save DC than full casters. As such, using spells that require saves doesn't work as well. Consider how save heavy the spells you're looking at from each school are.

Ent
2009-02-12, 04:46 PM
The arguement against it is that the spell is giving damage to a weapon attack, it's not a damaging spell itself.


I see no reason why you couldn't empower your burst effect. I'd even argue that a character with energize weapon, empower spell, and item crafting feats could create a permanently empowered bursting weaopn.

Regarding your gish, what is his role in the party? Is he a tank that self buffs to make up for missing fighter levels or a caster that just happens to be pretty durable? What else is in your party? If you're not expected to be the primary arcane caster, you can probably get away with less optimal school selection.

Gishes usually have a lower save DC than full casters. As such, using spells that require saves doesn't work as well. Consider how save heavy the spells you're looking at from each school are.

Seatbelt
2009-02-12, 05:29 PM
My role in the party is the meat shield. We have a Cleric of Farlaghn/Healbot, Spellwarped Sniper Sorcerer (who actually killed my last character, he puts out a lot of damage), a complicated Fighter-Archer/OoBI/Scout build, and a drow Abjurer/Master Specialist/Dispell-monkey who will probably end up betraying us all (and led to my last character's death).

The Archer puts out some good damage, the sorc puts out incredible hurt, and the cleric almost exclusively heals/buffs (and twice a day he dimension doors onto something big and casts Harm, and yes I know dimdoor doesn't work that way). But any number of things make their particular modes of offense useless. The Drow may as well not exist because his optimization-foo and understanding of Wizards is nowhere near where it needs to be for our party's power level. Nobody is a reliable high-damage/high AC/HP character. My job in the party is to be that guy.

Temp.
2009-02-13, 12:16 AM
I would allow Metamagic to work that way. (The burst property is a variable numeric effect of the spell 'n all... and your burst effect is going to be damaging the baddies.) 'Not sure if that's proper, but it makes sense to me.

Course, I don't know why you're asking us--this is something to bring up with your DM. What the rules say if you read over them with a fine-toothed comb and what actually happens in-game are two entirely different things.


As far as banning schools for a Gish, I would never touch Abjuration; its metamagic spells and Abjurant Champion are going to let buff without needing a couple minutes' notice. That's the problem Clerics and gish builds tend to have in my experience. Even if it has largely uninteresting spells, AC's swift cast and the Spell Matrix line makes this school vital to most of my gishes.
I wouldn't hold Conjuration in its spotlight as an unbannable school for a Gish; the only thing you're going to be getting out of it with three [near-]full casters in the party is teleportation. Teleports are good, but they aren't always necessary. Solid buff spells are (but now that I say that, you're sure to be locked behind a Wall of Stone or something every encounter). Summoning Mounts can be beyond cool, though.
I don't like Enchantment. Heroism is okay, Greater Heroism is rarely worth the action it takes to cast. Nothing here seems remotely interesting to me. I would drop it without a second thought.
Evocation I don't like either. It has some alright +damage buffs, but nothing you'll miss. And Contingency, but if you grab Craft Contingent Spell, you won't need it.
Illusion I like, but wouldn't hold onto too tightly with a caster-heavy party: Greater/Superior Invisibility and the Mirror Images tend to be the only important spells from this school I use. Mirror Image varies by DM (once you hit something, it can be pretty clear which the real you is). Invisibility is a pretty damned good effect though. Not enough for me to take it over Abjuration or Transmutation, but a solid effect.
Necromancy I don't like. It has some okay buff spells, but you have Transmutation which tends to do the same things more effectively.
And Transmutation is your best friend. Focused Specialist here is too good to pass up.


Your original plan seems like the best route to me. And I don' think either of the alternatives you asked about woul be too bad.

Seatbelt
2009-02-13, 01:46 AM
Thanks. I appreciate the insight. :)