Not The Vaarsuvius's Gender Thread Of Your Parent And Other Parent!

[Flame of Anor]

Alright, everyone, we can all agree that the Vaarsuvius's Gender Thread has been rehashed far too many times. What are we on now, Night of the Revenge of the Son of the Bride of the Grand-Nephew of the Thread of the Attack of the Mutation of the Unspeakable Abomination that lived in the walls of the house that Jack built (Jack being the OP of the first V's Gender Thread)?

So this thread is different. There will be no discussion of the following:

* What gender Vaarsuvius is
* What sexual orientation Vaarsuvius is
* The above but about Vaarsuvius's mate

These may only be discussed if you have a shockingly new take on the idea. A shockingly new analysis of eyebrow positionings throughout the comic on males and females does NOT count.

What there will be discussion of is, basically, anything you can think of that is vaguely related to such, but not including it. It must be new and inventive! Banter is encouraged! Clever innuendo, within the rules, will be tolerated! Aye! Deviations from the subject matter will likewise be tolerated! Aye! Old-sock stew will not! Aye! Remember the captain's personal motto! Aye! Let the think-tank (or should I say the think-septic-tank?) begin!*


I'll start off. V and his/her mate seem fairly androgynous. Lirian, on the other hand, does not. Does this imply different subraces or a pan-elven mutation?
*When I started typing, I did not realize I was channeling Captain Widdershins. The ayes and the motto came after that. If you don't know what I'm talking about, forget it.

[Raging Gene Ray]

V and his/her mate seem fairly androgynous. Lirian, on the other hand, does not. Does this imply different subraces or a pan-elven mutation?

Lirian comes up sometimes when anyone brings up the "all elves are androgynous," kind of like how Sangwaan comes up whenever somebody says "all robe-wearing casters are androgynous."

I think Lirian's just a skinny blonde girl, a ho-tie by human standards, and not a different subrace.

Not all elves are androgynous.
Not all robe-wearing casters are androgynous.
But that doesn't rule out all elves who are also robe-wearing casters being androgynous.

[TheSummoner]

Plot device, Mr. Frodo, Plot device.

Lirian is clearly female because as a plot point, she was in a relationship with Dorukon. Dorukon, a straight male human, would not be attracted to Lirian if he didn't know she was female and if she didn't look female, but had told their group that she was, he likely would still not feel attracted physically.

[Studoku]

What are we on now, Night of the Revenge of the Son of the Bride of the Grand-Nephew of the Thread of the Attack of the Mutation of the Unspeakable Abomination that lived in the walls of the house that Jack built (Jack being the OP of the first V's Gender Thread)?
I think it's The return of the Night of the Revenge of the Son of the Bride of the Grand-Nephew of the Thread of the Attack of the Mutation of the Unspeakable Abomination that lived in the walls of the house that Jack built on a frog on the log in the hole at the bottom of the sea returns II

[Trizap]

umm.......well maybe simply, the elves androgynous looks are a dominant gene in their race on that setting, Lirian just happened to inherit recessive genes that didn't make her look androgynous, simple.

[Optimystik]

Not all elves are androgynous.
Not all robe-wearing casters are androgynous.
But that doesn't rule out all elves who are also robe-wearing casters being androgynous.

This, this, and more this.

[Gamiress]

As I said in another thread, I refuse to believe that V has never sent a letter or something to the family. Five minutes later, I wondered if V and V's Mate ever used communication spells for more... Intimate purposes?

[Wraithfighter]

V's kids are both lesbians. :)

*ducks*

I have to admit, though, V and an apprentice baker? This seems a bit... strange.

I mean, I guess it could be the whole two people completing each other thing, but it still feels odd. Like "Apprentice Baker" was thrown in to make V's Mate seems like an ordinary joe, a might-be-a-damsel-but-certainly-in-distress.

Librarian might make more sense, if only to explain how the two met :).

[TheSummoner]

Perhaps V has a fondness for blueberry muffins?

[Flickerdart]

Perhaps V has a fondness for blueberry muffins?
V obviously met his mate when he stole a doily from under the baked goods to study its eldritch secrets.

[enarch3t]

I think V was robbing the cradle when she married the baker from blue-berry lane's son.

Or daughter. Whatever floats your boat.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Just a random thought on the shape of V's mate ....

What does a pregnant elf look like, body-wise? :smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

Just a random thought on the shape of V's mate ....

What does a pregnant elf look like, body-wise? :smallwink:
They go concave.

[pnewman]

Plot device, Mr. Frodo, Plot device.

Lirian is clearly female because as a plot point, she was in a relationship with Dorukon. Dorukon, a straight male human, would not be attracted to Lirian if he didn't know she was female and if she didn't look female, but had told their group that she was, he likely would still not feel attracted physically.

That seems a bit like heteronormative circular reasoning. Is there any text evidence that Dorukon is straight? The only text evidence that we have is of his attraction to Lirian. Thus it would be just as accurate to say that 'Dorukon is druidosexual, because he is sexually attracted to druids of any gender.'

[Flame of Anor]

As I said in another thread, I refuse to believe that V has never sent a letter or something to the family. Five minutes later, I wondered if V and V's Mate ever used communication spells for more... Intimate purposes?

"Ooh, baby, talk dirty to me...in twenty-five words or less. Unless you have another one prepared, of course. Where were we? Oh, right, we--"

I don't get what you're talking about.


Oh, and Pnewman, you just made me think of Durokan hitting on Leeky. Bad pnewman! No cookie! :smalleek:

[Kaytara]

Not all elves are androgynous.
Not all robe-wearing casters are androgynous.
But that doesn't rule out all elves who are also robe-wearing casters being androgynous.

Thirded!

Really, I don't understand the need to come up with subraces and such. We've seen elves who are androgynous, we've seen elves who aren't. Therefore, some elves are androgynous and some aren't. Just the way a human can have more pronounced or less pronounced secondary sexual characteristics. Why can't it be as simple as that? XD

[Gamiress]

"Ooh, baby, talk dirty to me...in twenty-five words or less. Unless you have another one prepared, of course. Where were we? Oh, right, we--"

I don't get what you're talking about.


Oh, and Pnewman, you just made me think of Durokan hitting on Leeky. Bad pnewman! No cookie! :smalleek:

There's more out there than just Sending, y'know.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

That seems a bit like heteronormative circular reasoning. Is there any text evidence that Dorukon is straight? The only text evidence that we have is of his attraction to Lirian. Thus it would be just as accurate to say that 'Dorukon is druidosexual, because he is sexually attracted to druids of any gender.'


Well, you can basically discount any evidence by that type of reasoning. I mean, I have no evidence that my parents, for example, are straight other than that they have been married for 42 years and have never visibly shown any attraction to the same sex.

Still, by the logic in your post, this alone is no proof of their being heterosexual. After all, for all I know, there might be some situation wherein they are homosexual, since the absence of proof is apparently to be considered as being as valid as the presence of proof.

Given that the majority of people are heterosexual, it doesn't seem like an invalid assumption to make that when you see someone exhibiting heterosexual tendencies that they are, in fact, heterosexual, until and unless actual proof of homosexuality is observed. So saying that Dorukan is straight because he's attracted to Lirian is pretty logical in my book -- at least until we actually see him putting the moves on another guy.

[TheSummoner]

Which... considering his current state, is next to impossible without a particularly pointless and somewhat disturbing flashback...

[Z-dan]

My personal take on Lirian is simply that she has a high charisma... I know from pretty much every game I've played that 'charisma' is always taken to mean an increase in size of... certain body parts... (which leads to arguments over how 'intimidate' works off of charisma, etc >.>)
So yeah- it's probably just a case of 90% of elves taking charisma as a dump stat, and Lirian being a druid doesn't need the 'physical' stats because of wild shape, and therefore put loads of ranks in charisma :smallbiggrin:

[DimJim]

I found another non-androgynous elf in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/u3K7EzLeGI9oSEybCUP.gif) comic. Don't know if this is important, but I don't think anyone else has found it.

[Scarlet Knight]

V obviously met his mate when he stole a doily from under the baked goods to study its eldritch secrets.

:vaarsuvius: is then obviously a man. It is man (melf... you know what I mean...) who will do anything for baked goods , and men who will break a young baker's heart when they learn they have been used for their doilies...
:smallfrown:

[TheSummoner]

I found another non-androgynous elf in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/u3K7EzLeGI9oSEybCUP.gif) comic. Don't know if this is important, but I don't think anyone else has found it.

Another plot device, Mr. Frodo, another plot device.

Same as Dorukon/Lirian, that person (who is probably an elf, but might be something else with pointy ears) is clearly female because of the function of the tavern of infinate one night stands and Roy being a straight male. Although I'm glad Roy hasn't (as far as we've seen anyways) gone to the tavern, he wouldn't be the least bit interested in someone who wasn't clearly female.

[pnewman]

Given that the majority of people are heterosexual, it doesn't seem like an invalid assumption to make that when you see someone exhibiting heterosexual tendencies that they are, in fact, heterosexual, until and unless actual proof of homosexuality is observed. So saying that Dorukan is straight because he's attracted to Lirian is pretty logical in my book -- at least until we actually see him putting the moves on another guy.

Yes, the majority of humans in our culture act in a primarily heterosexual way.
Given that 1) Dorukan is not from our culture 2) His attraction to a sapient non-human is not something our culture has any real comparison to and thus we can't properly compare him to individuals from our culture, and 3) Even in our culture attraction to Lirian shows nothing to disporve the possibility of bisexuality.

It's not an either/or choice, it's a scale of actual behavior and preferred behavior.

[DBear]

My personal take on Lirian is simply that she has a high charisma... I know from pretty much every game I've played that 'charisma' is always taken to mean an increase in size of... certain body parts... (which leads to arguments over how 'intimidate' works off of charisma, etc >.>)
So yeah- it's probably just a case of 90% of elves taking charisma as a dump stat, and Lirian being a druid doesn't need the 'physical' stats because of wild shape, and therefore put loads of ranks in charisma :smallbiggrin:

That is actually the best idea I've heard on this. :smallsmile:

[TheSummoner]

Yes, the majority of humans in our culture act in a primarily heterosexual way.
Given that 1) Dorukan is not from our culture 2) His attraction to a sapient non-human is not something our culture has any real comparison to and thus we can't properly compare him to individuals from our culture, and 3) Even in our culture attraction to Lirian shows nothing to disporve the possibility of bisexuality.

It's not an either/or choice, it's a scale of actual behavior and preferred behavior.

However, Dorukon IS from a culture which was designed by our culture and based around our culture and it's interpretation of other cultures. The closest thing we can compare his attraction to a sapient non-human is a real world interracial relationship, which happens all the time. Afterall, aside from the ears and culture, theres really very little difference between an elf (with a clearly defined gender) and a human. The two are able to produce offspring, which may or may not be able to reproduce. Based on the fact more people are straight than homosexual or bisexual, until evidence is shown otherwise, its a safe assumption to say Dorukon is straight.

[Forias]

However, Dorukon IS from a culture which was designed by our culture and based around our culture and it's interpretation of other cultures.
Originally, the issues was not about culture.

You made two points:

1) Lirian is shown as clearly female so that a relationship with Dorukan, who is clearly straight, will make sense.

2) Dorukan is clearly straight because we see him in a relationship with Lirian, who is clearly female.

This is a circular argument.

At the core of it is the assumption that everyone we see will be straight and therefore we can base off that. Straight until proven otherwise, I guess. Which makes sense statisically, but isn't something I'd ever want to follow in real life.

Of course, I think that practically speaking, you're right about the comic. The Lirian/Dorukan joke probably wouldn't have been funny if Lirian had been androgynous, because it was playing on all the "player" imagery of Dorukan getting booty calls. And of course, we all know that booty has to be totally feminine, with blonde hair and noticeable breasts (pointy ears optional).

I guess I find that somewhat sad, but it's the way the world is, I suppose.

[Tingel]

Another plot device, Mr. Frodo, another plot device.

Same as Dorukon/Lirian, that person (who is probably an elf, but might be something else with pointy ears) is clearly female because of the function of the tavern of infinate one night stands and Roy being a straight male. Although I'm glad Roy hasn't (as far as we've seen anyways) gone to the tavern, he wouldn't be the least bit interested in someone who wasn't clearly female.

Your plot device theory doesn't work at all, TheSummoner. On page 51 of Start of Darkness we see a small warband of elves, and several of the archers are unmistakenly female. They have no plot relevance whatsoever, so their clearly discernable gender does not serve any specific purpose. They are simply women with womanly parts.

Your theory has thus been disproven.




We've seen elves who are androgynous, we've seen elves who aren't.
I have seen no androgynous elf so far. People tell me that Vaarsuvius is, but I don't see it. I consider it hasty to call every elf without breasts "androgynous".

[TheSummoner]

Originally, the issues was not about culture.

You made two points:

1) Lirian is shown as clearly female so that a relationship with Dorukan, who is clearly straight, will make sense.

2) Dorukan is clearly straight because we see him in a relationship with Lirian, who is clearly female.

This is a circular argument.

At the core of it is the assumption that everyone we see will be straight and therefore we can base off that. Straight until proven otherwise, I guess. Which makes sense statisically, but isn't something I'd ever want to follow in real life.

Of course, I think that practically speaking, you're right about the comic. The Lirian/Dorukan joke probably wouldn't have been funny if Lirian had been androgynous, because it was playing on all the "player" imagery of Dorukan getting booty calls. And of course, we all know that booty has to be totally feminine, with blonde hair and noticeable breasts (pointy ears optional).

I guess I find that somewhat sad, but it's the way the world is, I suppose.

In that case, do you mind if I ask what you would follow in real life? Do you subconsiously assume everyone is gay or bisexual until proven otherwise? Do you assume a man who is clearly in a relationship with a woman is bisexual until proven otherwise?

Generally, I go with the simplest assumption unless I have evidence that contradicts it, but because of your comment, I'm quite curious what you do.


Your plot device theory doesn't work at all, TheSummoner. On page 51 of Start of Darkness we see a small warband of elves, and several of the archers are unmistakingly female. They have no plot relevance whatsoever, so their clearly discernable gender does not serve any specific purpose. They are simply women with womanly parts.

Your theory has thus been disproven.

I have seen no androgynous elf so far. People tell me that Vaarsuvius is, but I don't see it. I consider it hasty to call every elf without breasts "androgynous".

Sadly its the price I pay for not owning the books... Without reading them, I have no comments to make about those elves.

Perhaps its only V and anyone who could somehow be used to determine V's gender whose androgynes.

I really ought to read those books...


Anyways... I never said the ONLY possible reason for an elf to have a a clearly defined gender is so a joke or relationship will make sence. However, in the case of Lirian and the woman outside the Tavern of Infinate One Night Stands, its a fitting explanation.

[Optimystik]

I have seen no androgynous elf so far. People tell me that Vaarsuvius is, but I don't see it. I consider it hasty to call every elf without breasts "androgynous".

Well, we have proof that V is androgynous, because the other characters in the strip have as much trouble with his gender as we do. If he looked distinctly masculine then characters like Durkon and Sabine would have mentioned it. They certainly have no trouble with Elan's gender.

[Tingel]

Well, we have proof that V is androgynous, because the other characters in the strip have as much trouble with his gender as we do. If he looked distinctly masculine then characters like Durkon and Sabine would have mentioned it. They certainly have no trouble with Elan's gender.
I am aware of that. Yet, I still don't see any shred of androgyny in the way Vaarsuvius is drawn, or any other elf for that matter. My explanation for the countless conflicting perceptions about the gender of Vaarsuvius by different characters in the comic and Belkar's inability to make out the wizard's gender at all is simply that it is a running gag; a running gag with no discernible basis in the artwork.

[Kaytara]

I have seen no androgynous elf so far. People tell me that Vaarsuvius is, but I don't see it. I consider it hasty to call every elf without breasts "androgynous".

I thought most of the elves in SoD were pretty androgynous.
I mean, just look at them. Yes, there are several who are clearly female, but at least one that is apparently also female yet completely flat-chested, so imagine what she'd look like in a robe? And the female elves still aren't as curvy as human females.
Those were the archers. If we assume the archers are women and the front-liners are men... Those men still don't look very masculine. They're slim, with vaguely rectangular bodies but very rounded edges.
Given that male elves generally look rather feminine and the females are not all that curvy, and that one gender can easily look like the other in clothing that is not body-tight, I think you can consider them to be a fairly androgynous race.

[Rotipher]

Lirian comes up sometimes when anyone brings up the "all elves are androgynous," kind of like how Sangwaan comes up whenever somebody says "all robe-wearing casters are androgynous."


Er, has anyone brought up the possibility that Lirian might just be using her Thousand Faces class ability to look more feminine? If Dorukan wasn't the first human male she'd developed an attraction to, then she might have gotten into the habit of mimicking the curvier physique of female humans.

[Optimystik]

Er, has anyone brought up the possibility that Lirian might just be using her Thousand Faces class ability to look more feminine? If Dorukan wasn't the first human male she'd developed an attraction to, then she might have gotten into the habit of mimicking the curvier physique of female humans.

That doesn't explain the two drow... and is a rather vain (read: Chaotic) thing for a druid to be doing in any case.

[TheSummoner]

I don't recall a single androgynes (or male for that matter) drow... its possible they're just the exception to the rule...

[Gamiress]

Originally, the issues was not about culture.

You made two points:

1) Lirian is shown as clearly female so that a relationship with Dorukan, who is clearly straight, will make sense.

2) Dorukan is clearly straight because we see him in a relationship with Lirian, who is clearly female.

This is a circular argument.

At the core of it is the assumption that everyone we see will be straight and therefore we can base off that. Straight until proven otherwise, I guess. Which makes sense statisically, but isn't something I'd ever want to follow in real life.

Of course, I think that practically speaking, you're right about the comic. The Lirian/Dorukan joke probably wouldn't have been funny if Lirian had been androgynous, because it was playing on all the "player" imagery of Dorukan getting booty calls. And of course, we all know that booty has to be totally feminine, with blonde hair and noticeable breasts (pointy ears optional).

I guess I find that somewhat sad, but it's the way the world is, I suppose.

Oh, come off it, I'm gay and even I think you're full of crud and creampuffs.

[TheSummoner]

In that case, may I be the first one to say...

High five?

[Gamiress]

In that case, may I be the first one to say...

High five?

You may.

I find the habit some people have of insisting that everyone assume that every character has Schrodinger's Sexuality, especially positions like "it makes me sad that people assume Dorukan is straight" (when we have in fact seen solid evidence of this) to be frankly insulting. It reinforces the idea of homosexuality as an "other".

In regards to Charisma stats... That's actually a really good idea. We have word from The Giant that V's charisma is middling at best, that is, beaking off about your arcane might isn't the best way to win friends and influence people. Lirian, Pink Haired Heaven Harlot, and other clearly female elves could just have higher than average charisma scores.

[Silverraptor]

Lirian comes up sometimes when anyone brings up the "all elves are androgynous," kind of like how Sangwaan comes up whenever somebody says "all robe-wearing casters are androgynous."

I think Lirian's just a skinny blonde girl, a ho-tie by human standards, and not a different subrace.

Not all elves are androgynous.
Not all robe-wearing casters are androgynous.
But that doesn't rule out all elves who are also robe-wearing casters being androgynous.

FORTH!!! Oh, I called it!

And do we really need another elf sub-race? I mean we already have dark elfs. I agree with Rich. If dark elfs are supposed to be stronger, then why don't they always win? Meh.

[Spiky]

I am aware of that. Yet, I still don't see any shred of androgyny in the way Vaarsuvius is drawn, or any other elf for that matter. My explanation for the countless conflicting perceptions about the gender of Vaarsuvius by different characters in the comic and Belkar's inability to make out the wizard's gender at all is simply that it is a running gag; a running gag with no discernible basis in the artwork.
Perhaps you are not understanding the word?


an⋅drog⋅y⋅nous
   /ænˈdrɒdʒənəs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-droj-uh-nuhs] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. being both male and female; hermaphroditic.
2. having both masculine and feminine characteristics.
3. having an ambiguous sexual identity.
4. neither clearly masculine nor clearly feminine in appearance: the androgynous look of many rock stars.

Androgyny for V has been repeatedly defined as #4, occasionally 2 or 3. This definition has come both from the forum and from within the comic itself. Are you seriously saying that you clearly can tell what gender/sex V is simply from the way V is drawn? Because you'd be the first.