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amanamana
2009-02-13, 02:35 AM
How is the better way to get big saves against magic (focus on fortitude and will if necessary), along with the highest BAB possible (trying to keep full or almost), starting from 1st level (so, no LA+X races, if X is not 0)?
No specific setting material.
It would be good to have Mettle to... and anything in that spirit.

thank you all.

Eloel
2009-02-13, 02:37 AM
Monk has all saves full, but not full BAB. Does that work with you?

BobVosh
2009-02-13, 02:46 AM
Hmm. Paladin, Templar, and deepwarden sounds about right. Great fort, pretty good will, mettle, and add charisma to saves. Thats PHB, CW, and Races of Stone. If you can swing it, you can go Hexblade, Paladin of Tyranny, Deepwarden, and mage slayer. Gets you charima to saves, charisma to saves vs magic, mettle, con to saves, full BAB, and mind blank with good will on most of them.

*edited* Took out Templar to get rid of redundancy on mettle

Seffbasilisk
2009-02-13, 02:47 AM
Monk/Hexblade would give you decent saves, decent BaB, evasion and mettle.

Frog Dragon
2009-02-13, 02:56 AM
Monk as a class is horrible though unless you have something like Fax's Monk (which I use)
Monk/Dragon Shaman? There's a leader/defender kind of guy. Focus on Con for the Fort Saves. Only two levels of Monk. You will have good HP and you can really help the others do their thing with Auras. Dragon Shamans have good Fort and Will saves and focusing on Con. you could throw Knight in there for even more emphasis on helping the others do their thing. Unfortunately the Knight doesn't have good Fort. But if you want a little boost to you BaB and HP. plus the ability to force enemies to leave your friends alone. Take around 4-5 levels of Knight (though Knight levels net you their code and you can't take flanking bonuses without losing abilities for a day. Sneaky tactics are also frowned upon by the class.) as this brings your BaB up to scale. Then back to Dragon Shaman. High con will cover for your Fort loss. As a side effect your will should also be out the wazoo. Especially with decent wisdom though that is not needed. Your reflex save will suck though. Feel free to go around in full plate. Pay no heed to monk restrictions. The levels are only there for a +3 to all saves.

This build would need Con, Cha and Str. Priority on Con.

Ninja'd: Mine wont give you mettle though. Though I am not sure. I though knight had mettle?...

BobVosh
2009-02-13, 03:08 AM
You thought wrong, no mettle on monks.

Also I have been thinking...doesn't deepwarden add con to ac instead of saves? If so...well mine works well without that. If I wasn't at work I would look at the books. :smalleek:

Zaq
2009-02-13, 03:39 AM
If you don't use the fractional save rules from Unearthed Arcana, hopping around from class to class will bump up your saves faster than anything else. You'll want to stick to full BAB classes, or your BAB will never go up via this method, but there are enough full BAB classes out there to fill all of your saves. Reflex will be the most difficult, but Ranger and some prestige classes will fit the bill, and that's just off the top of my head. Will can be covered by the likes of Knight, Hexblade, and if I'm not mistaken Crusader (might be wrong about Crusader though). Now, of course, you'll be shafting yourself when it comes to actual class features, and I'd LOVE to see your roleplaying justification for class-hopping like that, but if all you really care about is saves, class-hopping is the way to go. ToB classes will be your friends; take them at the highest level you can stand to delay them until, because you can qualify for some of the higher-level maneuvers and pick up a bunch at once with their starting batch.

I doubt you'll actually want to go down this road, of course, but if ALL you care about is your saving throws, well...

amanamana
2009-02-13, 03:48 AM
I would like high saves against magic, but not that much... /\
The other builds, pretty much the options I'd already thought off. And dwarves and halflings are the ones with the best saves against magic, aren't they?
If anyone have other ideas...

thanks for the attention.:smallsmile:

Rei_Jin
2009-02-13, 03:48 AM
It depends on the level you'll be playing at, and what you want the character to be able to do.

I'd recommend a Monk2/Hexblade3/Duskblade5/Whatever-else-you-like10

Then you take the Ascetic Mage feat.

This combination gives you Charisma Modifier to AC and Saves against Spells, Mettle and Evasion

Base Saves: Fort +8, Reflex +5, Will +10 at level 10

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-13, 03:52 AM
This would start off weak, and it wouldn't quite be full BAB, but Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/PrC which makes casting in armour easier 1 or 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight X would have strong Fort and Will saves in addition to a lot of magic. (I have a friend who used this build for a character.) Reflex saves would be a bit lacking, though. Taking Battle Sorcerer levels would give you more HPs, but it gets magic slower (admittedly, all Sorcerers in my games are Battle Sorcerers with normal Sorcerer spellcasting, so you'd be better using this build if I was DMing).

Zaq
2009-02-13, 03:54 AM
A dwarf Hexblade can have some pretty nasty saves against magic. The Hexblade gets CHA to saves and Mettle, as you know. The dwarven penalty to CHA hurts, but the +2 to saves against magic puts it on par with the halfling's +1 to all saves, and since Fort is more important than Reflex, the dwarf's bonus to CON helps more than the halfling's bonus to DEX. Going defensively, I'd have CON and CHA your best stats, followed by WIS. That gives good HP (d10 and high CON), the dwarven bonus against magic, CHA to saves, mettle, and a strong Will save to begin with. Your Reflex will suck, but that's hard to fix on most full BAB classes.

A paladin also can have some pretty nice saves, but Mettle is hard to come by and really quite effective.

Frog Dragon
2009-02-13, 03:59 AM
You thought wrong, no mettle on monks.

I said I though Knight had it. I did not say monks

AslanCross
2009-02-13, 06:49 AM
Divine Grace or Unholy Grace are among the best save boosters in the game, nevermind that they come from generally subpar classes. Take one of the homebrew Paladins (either Fax's or OneWingedAngel's), multiclass with Monk, take the Ascetic Knight feat for level stackage.

Taking Warblade or Swordsage levels (or even Martial Study) allows access to the really nifty Concentration save Diamond Mind counters (Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body). I always always take them whenever I build a Warblade.

Darrin
2009-02-13, 09:17 AM
How is the better way to get big saves against magic (focus on fortitude and will if necessary), along with the highest BAB possible (trying to keep full or almost), starting from 1st level (so, no LA+X races, if X is not 0)?
No specific setting material.
It would be good to have Mettle to... and anything in that spirit.


Crusader (add Cha to Will saves) or Warblade (Diamond Mind maneuvers to replace saves with Concentration checks) can be pretty feisty. Dwarves have the +2 bonus on spells, or halflings have +1 on all saves.

Something else you might want to look at are the Cumbrous feats from Savage Species, in particular Cumbrous Will. Whenever you make a Will save, you can decide to add +6 to your roll, but are shaken afterwards. However, if you are immune to fear, such as Paladin 3, Dream domain, or Blooded/Bullheaded/Fearless regional feats, then you can ignore the shaken effect.

It also combines nicely with Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. If you're dazed/stunned, make a Will save as a move action to recover, which leaves you a standard action. Then you can use Iron Heart Surge to get rid of any adverse conditions.

The downside of Cumbrous Fortitude or Cumbrous Reflexes are more difficult to ignore.

You can also pick up Iron Will without spending a feat on it... look up Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel's Legendary Sites, see if your DM would be willing to work it in for your character.

Other than that... Mettle (Hexblade 3) + Evasion is the best way to go. You can pick up Evasion via a ring or dip into Incarnate for the Impulse Boots soulmeld, and spend your 6th level feat on Open Least Chakra.

Person_Man
2009-02-13, 10:39 AM
Hexblade 3/Warblade 3/Blackguard 2

Ring of Evasion: SRD
Cloak of Resistance +5: SRD
Tabard of Valor: When reduced to 50% hit points or less, you gain Mettle. If you already have Mettle, you gain Improved Mettle. Complete Champion pg 142.

Hexblade grants Cha to Saves vs. Spell and Mettle

Warblade grants three important Diamond Mind manuevers, Moment of Perfect Mind, Mind over Body, and Action before Thought. Each replaces a Save with a Concentration Check, which is ridiculously easy to boost. The down side is that it's an Immediate Action, and as Maneuvers they can only be used once per encounter (unless you recover them).

Blackguard grants you Saves vs Spells.

Remember, unnamed bonuses from different sources stack unless it explicitly says otherwise.

If you don't like being Evil, you can be a Corrupt Avenger (must be Neutral, Heroes of Horror) or Witch Slayer (I forget the alignment restrictions, Oriental Adventures). There are a bunch of different abilities like this (forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D320889). I'm sure we could easily push it into the +40 range without much effort.

amanamana
2009-02-13, 01:37 PM
Well, thank you all for the suggestions.