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overduegalaxy
2009-02-13, 05:35 AM
Our DM has decided to have our group pull our first characters out of retirement for one final hurrah, with a bit of a level boost and rebuilding. Since it was the first time to play DnD (or at least 3.5) for a lot of us, we often made some very poor choices (our group's Bard had maxed out Forgery).

So, I've been given the chance to rebuild my most beloved character from scratch. However, since when we last left him he was level 8, plus the fact that I've got very little experience with high-powered characters, means I'm going to turn to the Playground for help.

Basically, I want a TWF Ranger who will shred anything and everything placed before him. Our group's Rogue has dabbled in TWF to get more Sneak Attacks/Round, but I want to show him how it's really done. Practically all 3.0 and 3.5 books are allowed (Besides Tome of Battle/Magic, and a few others that probably won't come up). I need your help making me the most effective I can be. I don't object to Prestiging or multi-classing (No XP penalty for either, as per house rules), but I want to keep, when it comes down to it, as much of a Ranger feel as possible.

I'm sure I've left out information, so I'll try to answer any questions that may come up. I don't want anyone here to make a build (although you're certainly free to, I'll probably only grab bits and pieces), just advice on feats, classes, PrCs, alternate class features, and so on.

AslanCross
2009-02-13, 06:10 AM
Two-Weapon Fighting is sadly the single most difficult weapon style to excel in due to its feat-intensive nature and its lack of synergy with the supposed mobility that TWF agile combatants are supposed to have. (Since you have to stay put and do a full attack).

Unfortunately, the easiest way to excel at TWF (Tome of Battle) is not allowed, so yeah. That's tragic.

The only thing I can recommend now is the Tempest from Complete Adventurer, which reduces the penalties on TWF and allows you to pounce, mitigating the problematic full-attack only use of TWF. Also take some levels of Scout (CAdv), so you can get damage boosts via skirmish, and take the Swift Hunter feat, which allows you to stack Ranger and Scout levels for the purpose of Favored Enemy and Skirmish progression.

PHB2 also has a number of feats that might help. (I believe it has Slashing Flurry and Two-Weapon Rend)

There are also a few others to consider:
-Lion Totem Divine Barbarian (CChampion) allows you to gain pounce. So does the Wildrunner PrC (Races of the Wild)
-I think there's a psychic warrior power that allows you to do a full attack on a charge too.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-13, 06:19 AM
TWF Rangers generally aren't very good. The only thing that makes TWF better than using a weapon two-handed is bonus damage effects, such as Sneak Attack. Rangers only get the Favored Enemy bonus, which is situational and negligible. What you're asking for can't really be done unless you play something other than a Ranger that just looks and feels like a Ranger. I'd suggest the following:

Any small size race, Ranger 2/ Wilder 3/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 10, than take more Wilder levels afterward. Take the feat Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to get something you can use as a mount. Get Spirited Charge, Improved/Greater TWF, and wield a double weapon, either a Quarterstaff or a two-bladed sword or even a Gnome Hook Hammer if you have a racial proficiency. Take Expanded Knowledge for Psionic Lion's Charge, manifest it fully augmented before you charge in on your mount, and deal double damage on your full-attack thanks to Spirited Charge.

Tehnar
2009-02-13, 06:54 AM
There are some very good feats in the PHB 2 that are of use to a 2 weapon wielder.

Also there are feats that allow you to wield medium sized weapons in your off ahnd and treat them as light.

Consider a double weapon, if you have a high strenght, they have a marginal advantage as you can get more damage from standard action attacks.

Exotic weapon master prestige class might be a good choice depending on your weapons.

I am away from books, but you could multiclass into a fighter, to see if you can pick up melee weapon mastery (not sure you can though, forgot the requirements).

Two weapon fighting is starved for feats, a fighter dip might be useful anyway.

There are some spells that give a bonus to melee damage. Righteous wrath of the faithfull is nice one (SC, cleric only). Not very familiar with Higher level ranger spells, might be some good ones.

Choosing magic items is a part of creating a high level character, weapon crystals from MAgic Item Compendium are usually a good choice.

If you post more details on your abilities, race, etc, that would give us something to work with, as these are just general suggestions.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-13, 07:39 AM
Ranger 9/Scout 3(I think)/Barbarian 2(Whirling Frenzy Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) + Lion Totem Barbarian).

Talk to your DM about dropping off your Ranger spellcasting for full animal companion, or use the martial ranger variant from Complete Warrior(or PHBII, I forget). Add in the Lighting Mace tactical feat(complete warrior, I believe) and dual-wield light maces. Take the Swift Hunter feat and your Ranger/Scout levels stack for Skirmish benefits.

Should be getting fairly good Skirmish damage(+4d6, I think), Pounce on a Charge, +4 Strength and extra attack when raging. Assuming a Strength of 16, raging, and a +3 weapon, you're looking at +19/19/19/14/14 on a charge.

Dragannia
2009-02-13, 07:44 AM
The best way for damage is to stack damage enhancers. One way which synergises with Ranger is to somehow acquire Dex to your damage. Shadow Blade can but that's a Tome of Battle feat. Champion of Correllan from Races of the Wild also does it, as does the Corsair prestige class from Dragon.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-13, 07:56 AM
I'd also like to be the devil's advocate and suggest switching to a bow. Because honestly, the rogue is going to beat you in terms of damage if he's using TWF + Daring Outlaw. Conversely, you can have a +1 Flaming Shock Frost Thundering Vicious Longbow deals 1d8+5d6(1d6 to you). With just straight Ranger 12/Scout 3 you're getting 1d8+9d6 per shot and three shots with Greater Manyshot(for a total of 3d8+27d6 damage if you hit all three times).

That's a mere 72,308 gold for your +6 Bow compared to 144,316 for the rogue's two +6 weapons(assuming he even gets +6 weapons). Being a shooter can get you the same kind of damage at a lot lower cost and a lot less pain in the long run.

FinalJustice
2009-02-13, 08:30 AM
I agree. Plus, you can use the right ranger spells to make yourself even more deadly. The Swift Hunter Bow Ranger is really solid.

kalt
2009-02-13, 09:55 AM
One thing to watch for if you are playing a Archer is the spell Wind Wall really sucks hard... Now that just means you are going to have to be highly mobile so you can move around the wall, but one would hope your DM would be devious enough to use this spell since it is just a mere 3rd level shutdown spell.

Person_Man
2009-02-13, 11:27 AM
Ranger 15

Read this (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=892470).

Sword of the Arcane Order feat allows Rangers to memorize Wizard spells (Champions of Valor) Alter Self (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246) and Polymorph can easily be used or abused (as can Greater Invisibility, Protection From Evil, Wraithstrike, and numerous other buff spells), especially since you can Share Spells with your Animal Companion. Even without Sword of the Arcane Order, the various splat books are filled with useful Ranger spells. Just focus on buff effects. And remember, you can use any spell trigger item for a spell on your spell list, even if you don't currently have access to that spell. Or you can just invest in UMD cross class.

Complete Mage has a Favored Enemy (Arcanist), which is a great option. You can also pick up Favored Enemy (Evil) by picking up 2 levels of Stalker of Kharash (Book of Exalted Deeds) or Harper Paragon (Player's Guide to Faerun). Combine with Oversized TWF + Favored Power Attack (Complete Warrior) and Nemesis (Book of Exalted Deeds).

Choose a way to get Pounce or something similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). Rangers get a spell that can do this. But if you find that's not enough for you, there are a ton of other ways. I would avoid ways that involve a level dip into something else like Barbarian, as that would nerf your Ranger spell and Animal Companion progression. Buy a Psicrown of the Evader, for example.

When choosing your weapon enhancements, look for stacking debuff effects. Ability damage, negative levels, etc. With lousy reach and no area of effect abilities, you're going to suck at killing multiple enemies per round. So focus on killing the boss.

Other good feat selections for you will be Power Attack, Leap Attack, Minor Shapeshift (Comp Mage), Combat Reflexes, and Robilar's Gambit (PHBII), and maybe even Anvil of Thunder (Comp Warrior, potentially Dazes enemy, but requires 2 useless Weapon Focus feats as a prereq).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-13, 11:45 AM
Scout 4/Ranger 11 with Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Extend Spell, and the TWF feats. Grab a Wand Chamber filled with a Wand of Lion's Charge and a belt of Battle. Go crazy.

AslanCross
2009-02-13, 07:24 PM
Agreed on the belt of battle. That thing is nuts.

Eldariel
2009-02-13, 07:32 PM
I agree with Sstoopid's build, except I suggest one level of Cleric in there for Travel Devotion, Extra Turnings (to burn for extra uses of Travel Devotion) and Knowledge Devotion. That allows you to move and full attack, keeping skirmish active even when charging is not an option.

The other option is a Dervish, but Travel Devotion is infinitely cheaper featwise (and god knows, you'll be featstarved) and only costs you one class level. Spell Compendium adds a bunch of wonderful spells to your spell list; definitely suggest acquiring it. Also, DC 40 Tumble-check allows moving 10' as a free action [Oriental Adventures], which is also something to keep in mind as it increases your versatility when you want to use your swift actions for something other than moving.


That's really the best way; if you TWF, you need extra damage and skirmish is by far the most efficient source for a Ranger. You'll probably still be behind the Rogue, but not by as much as you'd be otherwise. With Tome of Battle, you could match or bypass him, but otherwise you'll be stuck with slightly less damage, but easier time dealing it and superior AC. As a bonus, you can deal Skirmish-damage to your favored enemies even if they're normally Crit-immune. Pick your FEs with this in mind.

Sources involved:
Complete Adventurer: Scout
Complete Scoundrel: Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish
Complete Champion: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/): Ranger, Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)
Optionally Oriental Adventures for the DC 40 Tumble to move 10'.

Flickerdart
2009-02-13, 08:27 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm

Scroll down to the Prestige Ranger. This lets you take off with a different class for a few levels, could help.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-13, 08:28 PM
I agree with Sstoopid's build, except I suggest one level of Cleric in there for Travel Devotion, Extra Turnings (to burn for extra uses of Travel Devotion) and Knowledge Devotion. That allows you to move and full attack, keeping skirmish active even when charging is not an option.Hence the Belt of Battle. Heck, level 15, I'd buy 2. It's cheaper than spending levels and feats, especially if you have to go TWF, which is feat-intensive. Battle is only a couple of rounds anyways at level 15, so 3 or 6 extra move actions should last all day.

Iku Rex
2009-02-13, 09:38 PM
Race?

(I'm assuming that can't be rebuilt.)

overduegalaxy
2009-02-13, 11:22 PM
Race?

(I'm assuming that can't be rebuilt.)

Half-Elf, but with +2 Dex/-2 Int, as per a house rule.

Right now I'm leaning towards Ranger/Scout/Lion Totem Barbarian, but if the Barbarian's pounce doesn't count for the Scout's skirmish requirement, I might have to try something else.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-13, 11:25 PM
Half-Elf, but with +2 Dex/-2 Int, as per a house rule.

Right now I'm leaning towards Ranger/Scout/Lion Totem Barbarian, but if the Barbarian's pounce doesn't count for the Scout's skirmish requirement, I might have to try something else.It does. The only objection is that a lot of DMs ban Spirit Lion Totem because of how good it is.

Eldariel
2009-02-14, 02:50 AM
Hence the Belt of Battle. Heck, level 15, I'd buy 2. It's cheaper than spending levels and feats, especially if you have to go TWF, which is feat-intensive. Battle is only a couple of rounds anyways at level 15, so 3 or 6 extra move actions should last all day.

Meeh, I never liked equipment dependancy. Utility equipment, fine, but you're talking about a character who literally cannot get up in the morning without a bunch of Belts. Also, if a fight happens to last over 3 rounds, he'd need to start switching Belt...no, I don't think it's doable without class levels.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-14, 03:06 PM
Meeh, I never liked equipment dependancy. Utility equipment, fine, but you're talking about a character who literally cannot get up in the morning without a bunch of Belts. Also, if a fight happens to last over 3 rounds, he'd need to start switching Belt...no, I don't think it's doable without class levels.Yes and no. I built a Charger with Pounce as well as the belts. They're backup for situations where he can't charge, not the primary focus of the build. Without them, he's much easier to nerf, but still able to work under normal circumstances.

Eldariel
2009-02-14, 03:11 PM
Yes and no. I built a Charger with Pounce as well as the belts. They're backup for situations where he can't charge, not the primary focus of the build. Without them, he's much easier to nerf, but still able to work under normal circumstances.

Well, charges are notoriously unreliable; so many things in the terrain can stop them that they can be entirely AWOL in many encounters. I mean, that's the principal reason there's nothing broken about your average Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Barbarian compared to other melee types; he's got one impressive trick, but that trick isn't applicable often enough to break anything.

That's why I'd rather have the Cleric-level; that gives him a reliable source of Skirmish for 4-5 10 round-long encounters per day in addition to the Charge- and Belt of Battle-options. I think one class level is a small price to pay for ensured functionality of the character, especially when the character is as focused as your average melee Skirmisher.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-15, 02:26 AM
Cause it is so hard to get a fly speed?

Mobey_Wee
2009-02-15, 03:11 AM
I played with a wood elf ranger/barbarian/tempest using 2 keen scimitars and he never had a problem keeping up with any of us. I couldn't tell you his exact levels, but I believe we were 15 when retired. I couldn't recall exactly what else he was using, but there are a few options. Improved crit, but I wouldn't waste the feat. You can buy keen oil, if you can't get your weapons enchanted. Combine that with shocking burst and it usually works out.

PHB2, Complete Scoundrel should have some really nice multi-class options for you, as well as Complete Adventurer and Complete Fighter.
I don't have my 3.5 books out now and it's too late to dig them out, but 2 weapon pounce was a good one, I believe from PHB2, a charge attack with both weapons. Complete warrior had some really fun feats for 2 weapon fighting, but wasn't always so useful; tripping and disarming stuff, most of it.

edit: i can't spell tonight

also, offering to pay for scrolls of keen weapon for your wizard is an option.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-15, 05:18 AM
Sword of the Arcane Order feat allows Rangers to memorize Wizard spells (Champions of Valor)
That's pretty nice. With this I'd say just go for a ranger 15 ... with OTWF and Favored Power Attack and wraithstrike you get plenty of bonus damage to make TWF worth it (Favored Power Attack actually works better with TWF than with two handers).

Any psions in the party? While Favored Enemy Evil is powerful I personally wouldn't want to be Exalted, with a Psion around all you need is 10 minutes (and a small amount of XP) to get a new Favored Enemy.

overduegalaxy
2009-02-15, 03:03 PM
Any psions in the party? While Favored Enemy Evil is powerful I personally wouldn't want to be Exalted, with a Psion around all you need is 10 minutes (and a small amount of XP) to get a new Favored Enemy.

No such luck. A Sorcerer/Malconvoker, the aforementioned Rogue/Assassin, a Cleric, and a Savage Bard/Barbarian.