What's with the Wizard/X gishes

[Darth Stabber]

It seems like there is a class that mixes every thing with Arcane Casting
Cleric - Mystic Theurge among others
Rogue - Arcane Trickster
Fighter - Eldritch Knight
Druid - I don't remember the name but I know it exists
Psion - Cerebramancer
Shadow magic - nocturnomancer
Binder - I don't remember the name but I know it exists
TrueNamer - I don't remember the name but I know it exists
Incarnum - Soulcaster

and for the really weird one you can mix you arcane casting with your arcane casting and be an ultimate magus.

What is the deal with this?

Bonus points* to whoever can name the classes I couldn't think of





*bonus points are like 3 of the 5 jacksons, they don't matter, they aren't even worth anything, but hey you have 'em

[Arcane_Snowman]

First off, it's not Gishes it's dual progression classes, Gish is a term reserved for Arcane builds that focus of melee combat.

Second off: the ones you're missing are: Arcane Heirophant (Druid/Arcane), Anima Mage (Binder/Arcane) and Fiendbinder (Truespeaker/Arcane) and one you haven't thought off: Enlightened Fist (Monk/Arcane)

Thirdly: they are there to offer versatility and give people a chance to build an "interesting" combination of classes. But no, it's not just for Arcane, there are also several for Divine.

[Dogmantra]

You can always go Mystic Theurge with Druid instead of Cleric, you could even go Ranger/Bard...

But yeah, it's there so that you could have the fluff (I dunno, a spell-hoarding person?) without sucking.

[mikeejimbo]

You can always go Mystic Theurge with Druid instead of Cleric, you could even go Ranger/Bard...

But yeah, it's there so that you could have the fluff (I dunno, a spell-hoarding person?) without sucking.

I disagree. They still suck.

[ChaosDefender24]

No!!!! You really have to love the enema mage, you get binder stuff AND a baby Incantatrix

I don't have much good to say about most of the other things mentioned. Eldritch Knight is OK, but there are better options out there.

[Temp.]

What is the deal with this? If a quarter of a system's mechanics are dedicated to one class, that class is damned well going to see some use. If that means crossing archetypes, so be it.

[Eldariel]

Those classes are a bandaid fix to the problems in 3.X multiclassing causes for spellcasters. Basically, you need arcane/X prestige class for multiclassing to be able to playing an arcane/X character without being comparable to about 4-5 levels lower character in power in the end.

Similar lists exist for divine casting, psionics, you name it.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Mikeejimbo is partially right, if one were to utilize the dual progression classes without resorting to speed qualifying (such as Improved Binding or whatever it's name is for Binder) or fast progression classes (Ur-Priest, Beholder Mage etc.) the resultant character usually ends up a lot worse than the components of the same level, I.e. Wizard 3/ Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 1 against Wizard or Cleric 7. That being said, if one does utilize the aforementioned tricks, it becomes an entirely different ballgame.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I.e. Wizard 3/ Cleric 3/ Mystic Theurge 1 against Wizard or Cleric 7.Compare, though, a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10 to a Wizard 16. The pure Wizard is more powerful, but durability, versatility, and stamina have to be worth something. They're not great, but they aren't terrible either.

[Eldariel]

Meh, level 16 Wizard has so much magic that it takes an extraordinary maraton war to drain most of it, so at that point it's no longer a real advantage.

[Keld Denar]

They're not great, but they aren't terrible either.

You also have to suffer through a saggy middle ground (the meat and potatoes of most D&D) from about level 4 to level 8 before you really get enough spell power to make up the difference between them and a straight class caster. Plus there is the fact that MT is only a 10 level PrC, not a 14ish level PrC, which would be a more practical even for the unoptimized wis3/cleric3 entry.

Really though, I think the most powerful duel caster would be something like:
Savage Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard2/Ur-Priest2/SublimeChord2/MysticTheurge8.

I'm pretty sure thats a legal build, what with UP and SC entry.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Things you missed (off the top of my head):
Eldritch Disciple: Warlock/Cleric
Eldritch Theurge: Warlock/Wizard
Ultimate Magus (my favorite :smallsmile:): Preparing/Spontaneous

Those two are kind of it...

Some Feats also do this:
Master Spell thief
...
Im feeling stupid for not remebering these now.

[Limos]

It's because Wizard is the best class in the game and everyone secretly wants to be one.

Oh sure, they'll say they don't like Wizard. But really, they do. They all want to be a Batman wizard.

[Aquillion]

There are several reasons.

First, spellcasters in general require dual-progression classes because it is almost flat-out impossible to mix them with other classes via traditional multiclassing. Barb 5 / Ranger 5 is not amazing, but is certainly playable. Wizard 5 / Cleric 5, meanwhile, is nearly unplayable.

Second, there's tradition. All the way back in the first edition, it was easy to make a fighter-mage class -- all you had to do was select 'elf' for your class. In effect, they had fighter-mages right out of the box. Since (up until 4e, when they finally decided to get rid of the frankensteins-monster that all these legacy things had become) there was an effort to avoid eliminating anything you could do in earlier editions completely, this led to many classes at various points trying to emulate that. In 2e it wasn't so necessary (you could just be a fighter/mage), but as I recall there were still a few things out there to support fighter/mages specifically.

Third, cleric/fighters, the most obvious cleric gish, are already covered by Paladins. Both druid/fighters and druid/rogues are covered by Rangers. Fighter/rogues are covered by both Paladins and, to a lesser extent, Barbarians. Any really useless class combination that would give you totally contradictory abilities is covered by Monk. Clerics can furthermore already take much of the 'flavor' of another class via domains. But the only existing class outside of the 'big four' of Cleric, Rogue, Fighter, Mage that really combines a mage with anything else is the Bard, and casting is generally pretty peripheral for them -- they get none of the mage's flavor (unlike, say, the ranger, which has flavor from all of the druid, rogue, and fighter in there, or the Paladin, which really does have the cleric and fighter's flavor combined.)

But the authors knew (especially since fighter/mage-types were one of the basic character options in the original D&D) that there were going to be lots of people interested in going after it. Hence, we get a lot of fighter/mage classes (aside from all the caster X/ Caster Y classes, which are more for the reason I mentioned.)

While there's a druid/cleric class out there, there isn't a huge demand for them the way there is for fighter-mages -- you can already just play a nature-priest or a druid with priestly flavor, you don't really need a special class for that. You can't pretend to be a mage with most other classes, though, or pretend to be a fighter very well when you're a mage (absent a few spells, maybe, but it's not the same.)

Hence, lots of classes to combine with mage.


and for the really weird one you can mix you arcane casting with your arcane casting and be an ultimate magus.Yo dawg, i herd you like mages, so we put a mage in yo mage so you can cast while u cast.

[Tsotha-lanti]

enema mage

:smalleek:

[Arcane_Snowman]

:smalleek: I was waiting to see how long it would take before someone cought onto it :smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

I was waiting to see how long it would take before someone cought onto it :smalltongue:

Noticed it immediatly. Decided that it was accurate description :D

Also I would argue the better rogue/wizard mix is beguiler :D

[Arcane_Snowman]

Noticed it immediatly. Decided that it was accurate description :D

Also I would argue the better rogue/wizard mix is beguiler :D It is a better overall mesh between the characters: the Arcane Trickster is supposed to be focused towards Lockpicking, Pickpocketing etc. (evident by Ranged Ledgerdermain) whereas Unseen Seer is supposedly focused towards Divination. In flavor at least.

[Fishy]

Beguiler != Unseen Seer.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Beguiler != Unseen Seer.
I never stated anything like that. I said that Beguiler is an overall more generalized mesh between Rogue and Wizard, whereas Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer are both more focused combinations of the Wizard and Rogue (using thievery and trickery from afar and espionage respectively, supposedly)

[wadledo]

Undead Dread Necro/Cloistered Cleric/True Necro can be pretty powerful if you do it properly, even if True Necro sucks so much.

[Ascension]

There are also the Daggerspell classes (Rogue/Wiz and Rogue/Druid respectively, focused on TWF). And Jade Phoenix Mage (Arcane Caster/Martial Adept). And there are actually a pretty good number of divine/other classes, too, the Shadowbane classes being the first to pop to mind. There's even a Bard/Druid in the Fochlucan Lyrist, ruined primarily by the Evasion Prereq pretty much demanding a completely stupid Rogue dip to get into the class.

I'm quite fond of dual progression, actually. It's generally suboptimal, but it generates an interesting mix of abilities that can lead to some very interesting roleplaying as you try to explain how your character acquired such unusual skills.