OOTS #631 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[BDEYE]

Hilarious and creepy at the same time. Very nice.

[Prak]

and the kids are adopted

[chiasaur11]

Adopted, huh?

Well, that explains a lot.

[picklepenguin]

Ahhh, the bonuses of checking OOTS at 10 at night. And V adopted kids! NOW WE KNOW!

[enarch3t]

Well played mr Giant. Well played indeed.

"You've been PRE-APPROVED!" Great, the funniest comic involving selling of souls and eating of children, ever.

[Prak]

I gotta say, I'm surprised that the adoption reveal wasn't more dramatic...

[Leonidus]

Huh. I wonder what the interest rate on that kind of pre-approved Faustian deal is?

Edit: Wait, crap, I'm dumb and can't read. (See avatar at left. And he's blond!)

[Limos]

You've been pre-approved!

Vaarsuvius
Tiny Island, Ocean

I love the label, it's so great.

[BisectedBrioche]

I knew those damn junk mailers were after my soul :smallbiggrin:

[bluedolphin359]

Wow, I was online! Awesome comic, great use of the mail. And V's kids are adopted! I never really supported that theory, but I guess it's the truth…

[Cúchulainn]

I knew those damn junk mailers were after my soul :smallbiggrin:

That should be in the comic, pure gold.

Anyway this should be good. V taking some levels in warlock? I like, I like.

[Aethir]

Quality service with a smile. Love it.

This is getting good.

[MammonAzrael]

Hmmm...But what level of credit has he been approved for?

Can't wait to see where this is going!:smallsmile:

[RedScholarGypsy]

no duh V, a 14+ lvl wizard, is preapproved. Hell, dming once I pre-approved a 9th lvl sorc. piece of advice: don't try word-for-word contracts when the player is pre-law.

Great comic! Let's have those four magic words: I accept your offer!

[liuzg150181]

I gotta say, I'm surprised that the adoption reveal wasn't more dramatic...

What's next, that V is homosexual as well?:smallconfused:
Though what we can expect is that V is turning to the dark side........:smalleek:

[AlterForm]

Adopted, huh?

Well, that explains a lot.

Indeed.

I like where this is going now. Maybe V'll get off this boring rock?

[aorta]

Yes! This is so much better than anyone's predictions on the site :smallbiggrin:! Way to go Rich!

[liuzg150181]

Hmmm...But what level of credit has he been approved for?

Can't wait to see where this is going!:smallsmile:
I wonder if the "pre-approval" thing is an allusion to sub-prime loan........:smallconfused:

[Lycar]

Pre-Approved? :smalleek:

Now that is creepy... like they were just waiting for a chance like this all the time.

Aw man, we so were expecting Varsuvius to go for the chance for ultimate power. We just never guessed the way it would go down.

But yes, what better to sell away your soul for then to save your loved ones? There are enough tales about tragic heroes who do just that after all (both litreally and figurativly).

EDIT: Also: Knights quest for the Holy Grail.
Imps quest for the Unholy (Evil) Chalice. :smalltongue:

Lycar

[Assassin89]

Apparently V has more potential than Kubota. We also know what Qarr wanted from V before the dragon attacked.

[prongs43]

Stupendous comic, as always.


Great comic! Let's have those four magic words: I accept your offer!


I dunno. "I cannot fail again!" sort of stuck out at me.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, V is screwed. Someone needs to let it be heard that there are new openings for the Order because they're dropping like flies.

[Warren Dew]

I have to say, I'm getting to like Qarr more and more, poor guy.

Shouldn't the zip code on the return address be 00666?

[KuH]

No fine print!

Now there's something you don't see on every offer ... or any offer, for that matter ...

[Hann]

I smell trouble brewing...

Great Strip, Giant!

[Woodsman]

The zipcode suggest that the pre-approval comes from the deepest layer of Baator, suggesting that these devils have had they're eye on V for a while.

Or they know he's got potential.

[TheSummoner]

Well, the adopted child thing only gives support to my theory of elven spore reproduction in which the children seek out the nearest two adult elves and claim them as parents!

[Rogue 7]

Houston, we have a problem. :smalleek:

[DreadArchon]

Hilarious.

I guess PC soul pacts are in high demand.

[Forealms]

Oooh, a Faustian Bargain. This won't end well.

Ah, well. I expected V to do the face-heel turn (or heel-face?) a while back, so it's due.

[ianneiriksson]

Well my theory was blown out of the water but i was right about the imp being part of the solution.... just not in the EXACT way i described.

oh well half right is better than completely wrong :smallbiggrin:

[Trog]

Rich -totally- gets old school geek cred for V's dark stained robes at the bottom à la Raistlin Majere on the original cover for Dragons of Spring Dawning. this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fc/DragonsofSpringDawning_original.jpg) :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

They aren't progeny if they're adopted...although I love that it's V's idea to sell his soul, and not the imp's, and how quickly he got a reply.

[Hectonkhyres]

Oh, hoh. V is in for the good stuff.
Of course the imp's last host was rejected. Why would hell barter for one more bum with a few levels of aristocrat that was irredeemably damned anyway? But V... V is a wizard of quite considerable power and potential and he is in the middle of an event that will reshape the world for good or ill. Of course they are going to be willing to pay out their noses.

Glorious. I can't imagine what they are going to pay for his devoting himself to their eternal and most unholy crusade.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Stupendous comic, as always.




I dunno. "I cannot fail again!" sort of stuck out at me.

I just realized how brilliant V's oracle prediction was on a meta level. Given how Verbose V is, a reader naturally tends to skim. But if you tease that there will eventually be a clue in the character's text, you pay attention to every word, and thus also appreciate the hard word the Giant puts into the dialogue, which, for V, probably includes having a thesaurus bookmarked.

I feel somewhat foolish for just now realizing it.

[ianneiriksson]

Oh and HAH! i KNEW it was a guy

Mr. elf Sir

perfectly obvious

[Moonshadow]

Stupendous comic, as always.




I dunno. "I cannot fail again!" sort of stuck out at me.


I was thinking the same thing.


SPOOOOOOOKY FORESHADOWING

[Squark]

No fine print on a sell your soul offer?


You'd think it'd be nothing but fine print.

[Phexar]

Ah, so now we know what Qarr was after. :smallbiggrin: He was just intending to give tips to V about some handy evil spell components in exchange for V just helping him find some evil chalice... not to trade ultimate arcane power for his soul.

Of course, now that may happen here, thanks to the evil pre-approved junk mail. :smalltongue:

[Kodi]

No fine print!

Now there's something you don't see on every offer ... or any offer, for that matter ...

And, under that text, in a very fine print written with invisible ink in abyssal is sure to be a denouncement of that. :P

Excellent comic. I couldn't help but think to myself, "this should be interesting".

[Jezebel Smith]

Whoa. Awesome comic today.

I'm wondering, though...it looks like the prophecy's on its way to being fulfilled, with V gaining ultimate arcane power. But the prophecy mentioned "for all the wrong reasons." Can anything s/he says right now, while trying to save h** family, adopted or otherwise, really be "for all the wrong reasons"?

Unless V makes a dramatic turn for the dark, but given how worried s/he is, s/he's got their best interests at heart, and that has to count for something. The only way I can see the prophecy coming out here is if V makes it irrevocably clear that s/he's doing it for personal pride rather than h** family's safety.

I really hope that's not the case.

[XtheYeti]

V's 4 words. "i take the deal." the right person the imp. the right time, "now" all the wrong reasons. well just think about it

[Prak]

Whoa. Awesome comic today.

I'm wondering, though...it looks like the prophecy's on its way to being fulfilled, with V gaining ultimate arcane power. But the prophecy mentioned "for all the wrong reasons." Can anything s/he says right now, while trying to save h** family, adopted or otherwise, really be "for all the wrong reasons"?

Unless V makes a dramatic turn for the dark, but given how worried s/he is, s/he's got their best interests at heart, and that has to count for something. The only way I can see the prophecy coming out here is if V makes it irrevocably clear that s/he's doing it for personal pride rather than h** family's safety.

I really hope that's not the case.
The problem is if starts to focus on revenge rather than saving hir family.

[Kaiser Omnik]

"I cannot fail again!" would be the perfect four words.

Great comic as always!

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

Well... I didn't expect that.

[The Berkeleian]

I feel like I'm on top of the first hill of a roller coaster, and all I can think about is the huge drop that's about to come.

Here we go...

[MReav]

Come on... more updates! Please!

[Stroth]

You know, the oracle never said that the four words were in the same sentence. Only that they are all said at the same time. and while "I cannot fail again" is certainly kind of scary, it's my experience that the single most dangerous sentence that a high level wizard can say that isn't a string of powerword spells is some variation of "I require power. NOW!".

[Lamech]

Of course there's no fine print

Contract:
1) You get power, need to save your family.
2) You become lawful evil
3) We get your soul.

Everyone wins!

[Grunthos]

I'm just impressed that Qarr, who is only moments removed from a near-death experience, has the composure to mould the conversation so smoothly and land V like a starving fish. "They only approve one or two of these things a century." HA! You lie like an oriental rug!

Yeah, I know, it's his natural profession. It's still a good piece of work.

[Trazoi]

The problem is if starts to focus on revenge rather than saving hir family.
That's my take too, although for a slightly different reason. Saving your family is a good reason, but "I cannot fail again" is more along the lines of personal insecurity. However, I'm in doubt those are the four words; it's not quite dramatic enough yet, and V's reasons seem more about V's family rather than more selfish reasons.

I'm not sure I'm looking forward to a post-Faustian deal V. If V does turn fully evil (and Qarr's evil masters obviously think V will) then I foresee a tragic end somewhere along the line for at least one main character.

[FoE]

Bwa.

Ha.

Ha. :smallamused:

[Bitzeralisis]

:smalleek:

[Enlong]

That's my take too, although for a slightly different reason. Saving your family is a good reason, but "I cannot fail again" is more along the lines of personal insecurity. However, I'm in doubt those are the four words; it's not quite dramatic enough yet, and V's reasons seem more about V's family rather than more selfish reasons.

I'm not sure I'm looking forward to a post-Faustian deal V. If V does turn fully evil (and Qarr's evil masters obviously think V will) then I foresee a tragic end somewhere along the line for at least one main character.

I don't really forsee V as turning completely Evil, but I can see Hir new lower-plane masters using the contract to get Hir to accomplish their goals on the Material Plane. And that could turn out badly for the order as well. Remember, they know about the Gates, thanks to Sabine.

So, not Evil, but doing Evil because of the contract on hir soul.


Also: a thousand curses upon Flickerdart! I wanted to say that about progeny!

[Pronounceable]

Invisible print more like...

[Porthos]

Pre-Approved? :smalleek:

Now that is creepy... like they were just waiting for a chance like this all the time.

Yes... I suspect they were. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) :smallcool:

[Axl_Rose]

Well, there's our Deus Ex Machina, as predicted.

Oh well, at least it'll be entertaining.

[Porthos]

Well, there's our Deus Ex Machina, as predicted.

Errr. I don't think that phase means what you think it means. :smallwink:

Per my last post, this has been foreshadowed.


Oh well, at least it'll be entertaining.

But on this, I am in complete agreement. :smalltongue:

[Anias]

First of all: One of the best comics I've ever seen. Next: It seems like "I can't fail again!" might be V's four words; either that or "I require power, NOW!." Right person: Qarr, Right Time: In time (or not) to save his family, Wrong Reasons: His concern is not purely for his family, but rather for himself - he's more concerned about his failings than the consequences for his family. In any case, we'll see.

[dragongirl13]

I SENSE FOUR WORDS MAY BE COMING UP...

Awesome comic, Giant. Please put up the next one fast, I'm getting really excited!

[Aristeidis]

Faustian Bargain? what is that?! First time I hear about this.

Someone asked earlier why the letter says 000999 and not 000666.

Well, apart from the obvious non-christian world, the layers of hell in the DnD cosmos are 9. The 9th and deepest is the worst.

So V is bargaining with the worst kind of evil in DnD! I think Asmodeus is the ruler there...

[Porthos]

Faustian Bargain? what is that?! First time I hear about this.

When in doubt, consult Wikipedia or Google. :smallwink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustian_bargain

[Trazoi]

I don't really forsee V as turning completely Evil, but I can see Hir new lower-plane masters using the contract to get Hir to accomplish their goals on the Material Plane. And that could turn out badly for the order as well. Remember, they know about the Gates, thanks to Sabine.

So, not Evil, but doing Evil because of the contract on hir soul.
I guess it depends on what selling your soul means in the OotS world. The stories I've read or seen take it in a number of different directions. The way I'm thinking it's going to go is that the soul seller's personality is going to end up warped towards Evil with a capital E no matter what.

[LordSintax]

Faustian Bargain? what is that?! First time I hear about this.


Faust was the prototypical (and original, I think.) "sell your soul to the devil for power and money" kind of thing.

Wow... not what I was expecting. V agreed so easily. I guess evil comes easier after you've been falling for a while, huh? strike that. not falling so much as sauntering vaguely downwards.

and incoming! Four Words alert!

[link55557]

I SENSE FOUR WORDS MAY BE COMING UP...

Awesome comic, Giant. Please put up the next one fast, I'm getting really excited!

"I cannot fail again"?
Sounds like 4 words to me :smalleek:

[mec]

I see them! I SEE THE FOUR WORDS.

The words that cause blood to spill and souls to be sold. The words that tip the balance of the world. The words any of us would kill for ...


"New comic is up."

[Porthos]

not falling so much as sauntering vaguely downwards.

I know it's early. But, you sir, win this thread. :smallcool:

After all, it's always a good time to quote Good Omens.

[Talith]

"I cannot fail again" + "adopted progeny" = ????

[Lerky]

well that's werid...wonder who got that pre-approved.

[Fjolnir]

while it is foreshadowed, that doesn't mean that A LETTER APPEARING FROM DARK GODS OF EVIL is not a DEM, it most certainly is, by the most general of definitions, though not in a negative sense

[Sequinox]

Sweet.
Stupid 10 letters...

[Mauve Shirt]

ADOPTED progeny? That must come into play somehow.

[alethiophile]

I hope V doesn't go all evil. We've got enough evil spellcasters in this comic.

Great comic as usual. 'Vaarsuvius--Tiny Island, Ocean'--ha.

[Solara]

no duh V, a 14+ lvl wizard, is preapproved.

Actually I'm thinking his preapproval had more to do with his knowledge of the gates and the Snarl...probably any of the OotS would have received the same speedy response if they'd asked for it.

...and chances are this point was brought up already but I'm too tired to read anything past the first page.

[Alysar]

You know why there's no fine print, right? All the 'gotcha' clauses are right there in the regular print.

Quar's masters know that V doesn't have enough time to read it before accepting the deal. Even if (s)he did, she would still accept it no matter what.

[Porthos]

while it is foreshadowed, that doesn't mean that A LETTER APPEARING FROM DARK GODS OF EVIL is not a DEM, it most certainly is, by the most general of definitions, though not in a negative sense

This is a pet peeve of mine, so apologies in advance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina


A deus ex machina (IPA: [ˈdeɪʌs ɛks ˈmakʰɪna], literally "god from the machine") is a plot device in which a surprising or unexpected event occurs in a story's plot, often to resolve flaws or tie up loose ends in the narrative.[1] Neoclassical literary criticism, from Corneille and John Dennis on, took it as a given that one mark of a bad play was the sudden invocation of extraordinary circumstance. Thus, the term "deus ex machina" has come to mean any inferior plot device that expeditiously solves the conflict of a narrative.

Modern uses

In fiction writing, the phrase has been extended to refer to a sudden and unexpected resolution to a seemingly intractable problem in a plot-line, or what might be called an "Oh, by the way..." ending.[1] Some critics think that a deus ex machina is generally undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of skill on the part of the author because it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though more palatable, ending.[15] A well-known modern example of deus ex machina occurs in the Michael Crichton book The Andromeda Strain: the pathogen referred to in the title is suddenly rendered non-lethal by a random mutation which apparently affects every existing virus particle instantaneously.

Sometimes the unlikeliness of the deus ex machina plot device is employed deliberately. An example is in Bertolt Brecht's epic musical The Threepenny Opera (1928), in which a "riding messenger of the king" appears in the last moment, stops the execution of the story's criminal anti-hero Mack the Knife and bestows an inheritable title of nobility on him. The very absurdity of this serves to underwrite the great lack of generosity and selflessness in the capitalist reality that the story dramatises. Another example is in the film Adaptation. (2002), in which a character comments on the cheapness and laziness of a deus ex machina ending, only to have one occur ironically during the climax of the film. In an episode (Episode 19, Season 16) of the animated television series The Simpsons, in which Homer is the only human being to ascend to Heaven after the Apocalypse, he begs God to undo what he did, and in doing so, God exclaims "Deus ex machina!" as a magical incantation and literally reverses the end of the world. The Simpsons has been known to end many of its episodes with a deus ex machina.

Other deus ex machina of note include plot reversals ascribed to dreams - so called dream seasons, or, in at least one case, an entire dream series. One notable example was the series Newhart (October 25, 1982 - May 25, 1990), which was Bob Newhart's follow-on to his original series The Bob Newhart Show (September 16, 1972 - April 1, 1978). The final episode of Newhart reveals that the entire follow-on series was a dream of Newhart's character Dr. Robert Hartley, completely contained in the orginal series. Another well-known example was the return of Bobby Ewing in Dallas, where he died at the end of season seven, but nonchalantly said "Good morning!" to Pamela Ewing in the last episode of season eight, following her long nightmare.

Im sorry, but anything that is foreshadowed in a work of art is by definition not a DEM.

They're like, opposite concepts. :smallsmile:

Now you can be picky and say that in DnD Gods can come down and assist mortals. Yep. But it isn't resolving the plot. In fact, it's probably going to horribly complicate matters. Moreover, because it was forshadowed, it can't be "a surprising or unexpected event".

I mean, just how many people predicted that V would try to sell his soul? Many many posters, I would think. :smallsmile:
.
.
.
.
Thus enduth my indulgence of my peeve. :smallbiggrin:

[dspeyer]

I think the adoption is mainly a way of keeping the gender vague. This way if V's mate is revealed as either male or female, we still won't know about V. Biological children would imply a heterosexual couple (or magic significantly greater than what V had when departing home).

[Trizap]

has it occurred to anyone that the words might not even have to be together?
or that they could be any of the words V says? heck, V might have even already said them.

or maybe ALL of the V's words are the four right words.....

[Trazoi]

while it is foreshadowed, that doesn't mean that A LETTER APPEARING FROM DARK GODS OF EVIL is not a DEM, it most certainly is, by the most general of definitions, though not in a negative sense
No, the letter isn't a Deus Ex Machina, not unless you're going by the most strictly literal definition (having a god from the machine infernal postal service.)

Firstly, Deus Ex Machina usually is used to describe when a high power springs the hero out of a sticky situation without any warning. The whole deal was foreshadowed for ages, ever since V got the prophecy of achieving ultimate arcane power, and again when Qarr took off after V. I think many people on this board were discussing whether a Deal with the Devil was on the table here.

Secondly, this deal is assuredly not going to neatly tie up all the loose ends. It will have a cost, which is going to cause more problems for V.

Thirdly, and the main reason I don't consider this a Deus Ex Machina, is the Deal with the Devil is almost certainly the whole point of this story arc. The whole introduction of Qarr's pursuit of V, the dragon and V's family was just the setup so that V would be in the situation for V to be in the situation toe make the deal. That means the letter is not the sudden inexplicable solution to the plot, it is the plot.

[Porthos]

Actually I'm thinking his preapproval had more to do with his knowledge of the gates and the Snarl...probably any of the OotS would have received the same speedy response if they'd asked for it.

...and chances are this point was brought up already but I'm too tired to read anything past the first page.

Yep. As I noted a few posts back, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it has something to do with the fact that Sabine went down to the Lower Planes to give her superiors a Heads Up about the situation on OotS World. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)

[Throknor]

I'd say 'all the wrong reasons' lays more at the idea that V. is more concerned that his powers are proving useless again (as they were in the battle and locating Haley), but also directly led to his family's peril. The right reason would be simply to save his family, not to stop from admitting he's ever been wrong about acquiring power.

So the time is pretty much Now, but I don't think Qarr is the right being since he can't directly grant any powers. I think it will be whatever one appears to accept his application. "I accept your terms" then has a good shot at being the four words, but are a tad obvious.

[Shadowbane]

I feel that V has said the four words.

"I cannot fail again."

Right time? Easily. Right being? Again, could definitely work. All the wrong reasons? Could easily be for his ego, not to save his kids. Hard to tell.

Thoughts?

[FatJose]

"Mr. Elf, Sir"

Speaking of the Snarl, its possible they will give V great power without trying to control him "too" much. At least not until the Snarl is stopped. V may be slowly turned evil but I don't think the forces of evil would sabotage a high level spellcaster and make him stray from the goal of stopping something the demons, devils and everything in existence can agree needs to be stopped.

[Poit-Narf]

I wonder what IFCC stands for...

[Galliun]

And now, since we entered the "there's no way to be sure other than to wait it out" realm, the forums will be filled with theory. Several will fit, because we have no way of getting the hard facts before they are disclosed. So... Yeah. Theories ahoy!

Edit - Above poster: Institution For Devils and Demons? :smallsmile:

[PlainSimplePhil]

Someone asked earlier why the letter says 000999 and not 000666.

Well, apart from the obvious non-christian world, the layers of hell in the DnD cosmos are 9. The 9th and deepest is the worst.


Don't forget that even in the Christian view of things, Dante's Hell had 9 circles as well--with the Ninth Circle being home to Satan himself, chilling out (literally) and devouring Judas, Cassius, and Brutus.

(Not that OOtS or DnD use Dante's Hell, mind you...)

[Gamiress]

I guess we know now what the dear price to be paid is. I wonder if V's mate will forgive the whole Faustian Deal thing?

[Artevoi]

"Mr. Elf, sir"

Either Quarr didn't want Vaarsuvius's lack of gender get in the way of his sarcastic rant, or the answer to that question is just obvious from his end.


Also, while "I require power NOW!" and "I cannot fail again!" may/may not be the infamous "four words," this is the closest it's gotten to fulfilling the oracle's prophecy.

No good can come of this.

[Lunaya]

Adopted, huh? So does that give more credence to the possibility that V and hir mate are the same sex? Meh..probably not. Several of my relatives were adopted.

[Shadowbane]

I am really worried about V. There's no way he'll get out of this ok.

Good luck V.

[Porthos]

"Mr. Elf, sir"

Either Quarr didn't want Vaarsuvius's lack of gender get in the way of his sarcastic rant, or the answer to that question is just obvious from his end.

Many characters have called V a "he" or a "she", so don't take this comic as gospel regarding V's gender. All it means is that the imp thinks/presumes that V is male.

[Trazoi]

Adopted, huh? So does that give more credence to the possibility that V and hir mate are the same sex?
I can foresee speculations about V's love life are going to lead to some pretty bizarre fan fiction. :smallwink:

[Wandiya]

Hmmm Dark side, baker, i know this is how we got "come to the dark side we have cookies:smallbiggrin:" or is this just my sick mind?:smalltongue:

[TheSummoner]

Adopted, huh? So does that give more credence to the possibility that V and hir mate are the same sex? Meh..probably not. Several of my relatives were adopted.

Theres still no evidence to suggest it. With no evidence pointing either way, I usually go with the simplest solution...

Ex: V's children look like neither V or V's mate. Solution: Their appearance comes from an unseen grandparent.

That example was disproven, but until 631 was posted, thats what I went with.

[Wolfram]

I have to say, I'm getting to like Qarr more and more, poor guy.

Shouldn't the zip code on the return address be 00666?

Heh. Personally, I loved the Hell's Plaza. I want to know if it was a hat tip to the Dubious Achievment Awards from Esquire Magazine?

[Scarik]

Am I the only one who thinks its really lame that V's kids are adopted?

I know its to prolong the 'what sex is V?' thing but that's so played out that it's just worse and worse seeing it keep coming up.

YMMV

[Leper Master]

Yes!!!

Path to EVIL!! 1
Path to boring story plot -1

[Prak]

Errr. I don't think that phase means what you think it means. :smallwink:
It doesn't.

A Deus Ex Machina is a plot device in which some supporting or other wise
non-main character swoops in and saves the day, completeky deprotagonizing the protagonist. Han flying in and blasting Vader's Ship in New Hope was slighty DEM.

A better explanation and more solid examples are here. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina)


Wow... not what I was expecting. V agreed so easily. I guess evil comes easier after you've been falling for a while, huh? strike that. not falling so much as sauntering vaguely downwards.
Why is it so unexpected? It's a completely logical thing to do, and V is nothing if not Completely Logical.


"I cannot fail again" + "adopted progeny" = ????
Impotent V would not surprise me. Though it's also possible that the kids are adopted after V failed to save their parents... though this is just completely baseless readin in of things which aren't even vaguely hinted at...


while it is foreshadowed, that doesn't mean that A LETTER APPEARING FROM DARK GODS OF EVIL is not a DEM, it most certainly is, by the most general of definitions, though not in a negative sense
this isn't a DEM, because it did not come out of left field... V told Qarr he was ready to sign a bargain, Qarr sent out a letter to the home office (groan and roll eyes) and he instantly got a reply.

[Charmy]

Am I the only one who thinks its really lame that V's kids are adopted?

I know its to prolong the 'what sex is V?' thing but that's so played out that it's just worse and worse seeing it keep coming up.

YMMV

I don't think its lame at all. It further opens up and entertains the possibility that V is either gay or a lesbian, which would be really great, in my opinion. Its not often you see a homosexual protagonist in fantasy (I can only think of three or four authors total, in fact) - especially one whose sexuality is not a focus of the story or enforces a stereotype, and is just one part of who they are.

I'm not certain if we'll ever know for sure... but I remain hopeful :smallbiggrin:

[Connington]

I agree with an earlier poster in that I think people are placing to much weight on the imp's tales of how hard it is to get an application. That's definitely the kind of salesmanship you'd expect a devil to practice. Basically, nothing the imp says can be trusted.

[pearl jam]

Don't forget that even in the Christian view of things, Dante's Hell had 9 circles as well--with the Ninth Circle being home to Satan himself, chilling out (literally) and devouring Judas, Cassius, and Brutus.

(Not that OOtS or DnD use Dante's Hell, mind you...)

Dante's Inferno should not, I think, be taken as literally representing the Christian view of Hell.

It is almost certainly the reason Hell in DnD has 9 levels, however, and the source of various other references.

[thubby]

classic :smallamused:

[Morgan Wick]

I'm wondering, though...it looks like the prophecy's on its way to being fulfilled, with V gaining ultimate arcane power. But the prophecy mentioned "for all the wrong reasons." Can anything s/he says right now, while trying to save h** family, adopted or otherwise, really be "for all the wrong reasons"?

People have mentioned the revenge angle, and another thread suggested "from the kobold's perspective", and you could argue "it's really referring to the means" (I'd be more concerned about "right being" in that case), but in a sense, V's family is a weakness in his/her psyche. Right now ultimate arcane power, and whatever reason he/she had for wanting it, is a side motivation, or side benefit, at the moment. For someone who has always been very logical, s/he's really thinking with his/her emotions right now. (Which we might not have known he/she had. Until this book V has always been the closest thing the OOTS had to Spock.)

This is going to sound totally crass (and off-topic), but I find the idea that the family is so sacrosanct that it's okay to preserve it by any means necessary rather fascinating. When you think about it, the reverence for the family we still have, in spite of the decline of reverence in everything else, is at the root of a lot of conflicts in modern US politics rooted in "think of the children!" That the reverence of the family would hold up even in a day when we're almost taught to ignore the feelings of everyone else but yourself is very fascinating.

[Theodoriph]

Haha...Qarr is on a quest to find the unholy grail.

[awibs]

You know, the oracle never said that the four words were in the same sentence. Only that they are all said at the same time. and while "I cannot fail again" is certainly kind of scary, it's my experience that the single most dangerous sentence that a high level wizard can say that isn't a string of powerword spells is some variation of "I require power. NOW!".

Yeah, these were the four words that I picked out immediately. Especially given that V asked the oracle about attaining, not just "more" but "ultimate" arcane power, and the imp immediately made a "you mean, like Faust?" reference.

[multilis]

Am I the only one who thinks its really lame that V's kids are adopted?

I know its to prolong the 'what sex is V?' thing but that's so played out that it's just worse and worse seeing it keep coming up.

YMMV
"I cannot fail again!" - Possible that V failed before, V's real kids were killed, V adopted another set.

On 00999... flipped upside down is 666. On internet, some people tag 777 behind their user ids to claim they are "Christians", "born again", etc, and some user ids have either 666 or 999 tagged to end to claim evil, with 999 being more hidden means. (I think theory is 7 is "complete/perfect", eg 7 days to week, 6 is shy of complete, 666 is 3x witnessed shy of complete/imperfect, and 999 is hidden way of having 666)

So likely a play both on 9 and 666.

[Tobimaro]

They say that the road to He*# is paved with good intentions. Looks like V is going to be on that road soon enough, especially after taking all of that time to fill out that form.

[Often Normal]

I know it's not probable, but perhaps the dragon is just conducting psychological torture, being foretold by the Oracle what will happen. V sells h** soul (and whatever extra costs) and rocks up home...

To find his family fine. Perhaps the Big Boss Devils have made a bargain with the Dragon to return her son in return for playing V into the hole where we are right now. Tiamat lives in the 9 Hells, right?

Still leaves the door open for a V vs Dragon showdown. Perhaps V goes and kills the newly returned son for an added slice of evil?

And "Sir" CAN be used to refer to a woman I believe in situations like the military or a female judge. So I don't think it is a definite reveal, but it is some nice evidence for the "V is male" camp.

EDIT: Actually the "Mr Elf, Sir" thing could be just a flippant remark with no more meaning than "V-Man", but then again, perhaps the obvious path is the correct one?

[Prak]

On 00999... flipped upside down is 666. On internet, some people tag 777 behind their user ids to claim they are "Christians", "born again", etc, and some user ids have either 666 or 999 tagged to end to claim evil, with 999 being more hidden means. (I think theory is 7 is "complete/perfect", eg 7 days to week, 6 is shy of complete, 666 is 3x witnessed shy of complete/imperfect, and 999 is hidden way of having 666)

There are volumes of books that cannot even begin to contain the vitriol backing up my mind's voice box right now...

The number 666 is "evil" because it is the "number of the beast". In the Book of Revelations, "The Beast", or Satan, is assigned this as his number. The number isn't arbitrary, either, it is the numeralogical value of Emperor Nero's name (them Jews are damned good at political satire).

The number 777 is also biblical, but I cannot provide a source, but it is "The Number of Heaven".

[Blackdog]

So does this make Qarr the mailer daemon?... er, mailer devil. Daevil?

[Myou]

Oooh, I like how V reacted in this comic.

And it's lovely to see that the kids are adopted, it makes me hopeful that V and his mate a a gay couple. :3

Not that I hadn't always thought of V as a gay guy, the "I always suspected." comment from Belkar heavily implied it, to me at least.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

V... :smalleek:

Wow, Giant, amazing comic. I came out of inactivity to post this.



:smalleek:

[RMS Oceanic]

This isn't Deus ex Machina. It's a literal example of Diabolous ex Machina, the plot device of the Devil! :smallbiggrin:

Anywho, my "Oh crap" meter just cubed, as I sense that the high cost for reuniting the order is fast approaching.

[Aquillion]

Oh and HAH! i KNEW it was a guy

Mr. elf Sir

perfectly obviousNo. As always, the statements of characters in the comic only reveals their perception of V's gender, not V's actual gender (others have referred to V as female.) Qarr has no way to know V's actual gender, so his opinion carries no special weight.

[motub]

Whoa. Awesome comic today.

I'm wondering, though...it looks like the prophecy's on its way to being fulfilled, with V gaining ultimate arcane power. But the prophecy mentioned "for all the wrong reasons." Can anything s/he says right now, while trying to save h** family, adopted or otherwise, really be "for all the wrong reasons"?

Unless V makes a dramatic turn for the dark, but given how worried s/he is, s/he's got their best interests at heart, and that has to count for something. The only way I can see the prophecy coming out here is if V makes it irrevocably clear that s/he's doing it for personal pride rather than h** family's safety.
Hasn't s/he already done so? S/he didn't say "I must save them!" indicating that hir primary concern is their lives/souls, but "I cannot fail again!" indicating that hir primary concern is hir personal scorebook.

The fact that "failure" specifically results in the death of hir family is just as irrelevant as the fact that previous failure has meant that V's friend and V's party leader and friend remain in danger (or dead in Roy's case).

The point is that V set out to do something and has not succeeded. And this time it's a high-stakes game, but V doesn't care about the prize as such. S/he cares about "winning" for its own sake.

And that's the wrong reason. Confirmed by the pre-approval-- does anybody ever sell their soul for the right reason? It's practically a pre-condition (certainly of pre-approval), isn't it (that there is no "right reason" to ever sell your soul in the first place, and since the bargain is always a "trick" in the second place-- it's not a "fair deal" where you get equal value for value exchanged-- any reason you might be doing it for is automatically wrong anyway)?

But (I haven't got to pages 2-4 of the thread yet), does anybody get what "IFCC" stands for (beyond "Infernal" something)?

[Bernemer]

I SENSE FOUR WORDS MAY BE COMING UP...

Actually I was wondering if the four words might be "I cannot believe this.", as some sort of trigger for the "Pre-Approved"-SPAM-mail.

Because: "Our prices are unbelievable!", or something like that...

[Taelas]

V is about to sell his soul.

For ultimate arcane power.

Selling your soul, even to protect innocents, is not the right thing to do. 'For all the wrong reasons', indeed!

[DougTheHead]

I thought the four words were "I cannot fail again!" because it shows V, against all odds, managing to focus on the exact wrong thing. S/he doesn't say "I must save my family!" Or "I must stop that dragon!" but "I cannot FAIL." Which makes me think that V's still maybe a bit too dedicated to winning. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0508.html)

But I suppose that if these were the four words, they would have been emphasized more. Time to wait some more, unless they were "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." Those are the only four words I've seen by V that have been given their own panels.

[kusje]

Why does everyone assume that V will achieve complete and total arcane power?

He asked the Oracle how he would achieve it and the Oracle told him how (right being blah blah). Where is the guarantee that he will actually say those words to the right being for all the wrong reasons?

I could ask the Oracle how I can become a billionaire and he would reply that I can achieve that by buying the right numbers on a lottery ticket but there's no guarantee that I will do so.

[Prak]

V is about to sell his soul.

For ultimate arcane power.

Selling your soul, even to protect innocents, is not the right thing to do. 'For all the wrong reasons', indeed!

It really depends. Selling your soul is only wrong in christianity. In D&D, it's actually just as valid a choice as keeping oneself pure and good, that is fully supported by about half the gods.

[Aquillion]

It really depends. Selling your soul is only wrong in christianity. In D&D, it's actually just as valid a choice as keeping oneself pure and good, that is fully supported by about half the gods.Are there even rules for selling your soul? Not in core, I know, but where else? Even Pazazu just changes your alignment.

Otherwise, V's potential soul-selling must be purely homebrew, so we can't really say anything about it...

[TheNovak]

I actually have seen rules for soul-selling. I believe a decently powerful soul's worth about one Wish spell.

Also, selling one's soul in D&D usually means you end up being tormented for all eternity in one of the nastier levels of Hell. So yeah. Not such a good idea, long-term.

Also also, "I cannot fail again" gets my vote for the Four Words.

[Selene]

I can't find the post, or remember who posted it, but thank you to the person who posted the link to the picture of Rasitlin. I completely missed that. V's gonna get black robes... :smalleek:

Now that we have confirmation the kids are adopted, I'm definitely going with V & his mate being a gay couple. But I don't think it will be a major storyline focus. Regardless of gender/orientation issues, I can't wait to see how his mate reacts to his Deal. Maybe by throwing a pan of muffins at him?

[Silencer]

You've been pre-approved!

Vaarsuvius
Tiny Island, Ocean

I love the label, it's so great.

No "Dear Mr or Ms" on that envelope? Rich is evil. :smallamused:

[Z-dan]

Hmmm Dark side, baker, i know this is how we got "come to the dark side we have cookies:smallbiggrin:" or is this just my sick mind?:smalltongue:

Win.


I don't think its lame at all. It further opens up and entertains the possibility that V is either gay or a lesbian, which would be really great, in my opinion. Its not often you see a homosexual protagonist in fantasy (I can only think of three or four authors total, in fact) - especially one whose sexuality is not a focus of the story or enforces a stereotype, and is just one part of who they are.

Double win- and you can add another author to that list once I've finished my novel :smallwink:


EDIT: I completely forgot my 2cp...
other than that it certainly appears the 4 words are either about to be said or have been already- and the wrong reasons are because he's afraid of failure more than saving his family. He knows there are other ways to get round this, like the res stuff and retrieving the souls later on, but if he waits that means he's failed right now- and he's so... 'arrogant' for want of a better word, that he believes he can make a deal with the devil and come through unscathed. We're definitely going to witness a gradual descent into evil, and its not going to be comfortable for V... more a case of someone pointing out the convoluted way he's contributed to evil plans (similar to Belkar's killings) which will torment V, Doctor Who style...

[motub]

Why does everyone assume that V will achieve complete and total arcane power?

He asked the Oracle how he would achieve it and the Oracle told him how (right being blah blah). Where is the guarantee that he will actually say those words to the right being for all the wrong reasons?

I could ask the Oracle how I can become a billionaire and he would reply that I can achieve that by buying the right numbers on a lottery ticket but there's no guarantee that I will do so.
But at least two of the Oracle's "prophecies" have indeed come true (Haley's and Belkar's). Two others are not yet proven either way (Durkon's and Roy's-- since we don't know which Gate Xykon will go to next, but I'd bet it will be Girard's, as prophecied, in which case the Oracle will be 3 for 5).

Also, the question V asked was very specific-- not how can I attain ultimate arcane power (which implies a possibility that one might not attain it), but how will I attain ultimate arcane power (which assumes that one will, definitely attain said power at some point in the future).

Rich is very careful with his words (and naturally V as a character is self-assured to the extent of arrogance), so of course "will" is used rather than "can", most likely precisely for this reason (the automatic assumption that V shall indeed accomplish the task at some point in the future, rather than asking how specifically to possibly do so).

"Can" I do something is an admission that doing the thing is possible, but there may be limitations that prevent me (such as permission, as in "Can I go to the movies on a school night?" or physical limitation, as in "Can I climb Mount Everest when I've just lost a leg?"). Will, on the other hand, assumes that the objective is assured as long as you agree (as in "Will you marry me?" or "What will I wear to the charity gala?"), which we know V has done (agreed to accept ultimate arcane power when presented). In fact, it was kinda a waste of a question, but I guess what s/he really wanted to know was "How long will I have to wait for my goal to be accomplished?", which s/he really didn't get a good answer to either, since s/he couldn't know when, where, or how the stated circumstances would present themselves. However, when those circumstances did/do present themselves, the objective (the achievement of ultimate arcane power) is on its way (shipped), presumably shortly thereafter.

[notanel02]

How convenient,Pre-approved(I bet they didn't even LOOK at the application!)

Keep surprising us Giant, Love your work.

[hamishspence]

Fiendish Codex 2: best source on devils, Always Evil acts, Pacts (the Pact Certain and the Pact Insidious) imps as temptors, and, just for luck, acts that are Obesiant (always Lawful) as well.

666 gets a reference in Manual of the Planes, with the legends that the Abyss has 666 layers.

[Nevitan]

This is going to end very badly for V as a hero :smallfrown:.

[wzeller]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that saving V's family is, at the moment, very much the wrong reason to seek ultimate arcane power.

Has everybody forgotten that the entire world is in danger of ceasing to exist?

If a path to ultimate arcane power is available, taking it in order to save the entire world is a pretty good reason. By comparison, taking it just because you want to save your family is downright selfish.

Taking a Faustian deal for selfish reasons (even if they are only selfish when compared to saving the world) is never a good idea. On the other hand, sacrificing your soul in a completely non-selfish way may be the loophole that gets you out of the deal after you've gotten what you wanted. (See the movie Constantine, for example.)

If V says "I accept your offer" (or whatever) and her only motivation is the short sighted saving of her family, I'd have to say that she'd then become an NPC and it's time for a new wizard to join OOTS. 'Cuz that's all the wrong reasons.

w

[Guran]

Quality service with a smile. Love it.

This is getting good.
Actually, its getting evil:smallcool:

[Galeheart]

Oh, joy... And I thought that the dragon was bad news. This has "Break the Haughty" written all over it. I still worry about V, though. I mean, whatever he's about to get is sure to come at a price that wasn't too clearly stated in the contract... :smalleek:

Oh, and first post for me. *dances*

[Prak]

Also, selling one's soul in D&D usually means you end up being tormented for all eternity in one of the nastier levels of Hell. So yeah. Not such a good idea, long-term.
No, it doesn't. There is no "usually" in this. If you devoutly worship Erythnul, do you know what you do for your afterlife? You get to sacrifice and slaughter and kill, and likely do all other kinds of nasty vile things, for eternity, all in the name of your god.

Wanna know what happens when a devout worshipper of Wee Jas dies? They get to research arcane secrets of death all for their Mistress' glory for all of eternity.

Vecna? Devout followers of Vecna don't die, they become Liches.

In D&D you usually get an afterlife equivalent to "We're going to DISNEYLAND!!!!" regardless of alignment. The only way you get tormented is if you royally p!$$ off your higher ups.


Now that we have confirmation the kids are adopted, I'm definitely going with V & his mate being a gay couple. But I don't think it will be a major storyline focus.
I doubt it would be. Rich does not seem the type that has the stones to even make it more than a possibility. I'll be surprised if there's even a confirmation.

[Galeheart]

In D&D you usually get an afterlife equivalent to "We're going to DISNEYLAND!!!!" regardless of alignment. The only way you get tormented is if you royally p!$$ off your higher ups.

Or, alternatively, if you don't believe in said higher-ups. What with the wall of souls and all. Or am I getting my lore mixed up again?

[hamishspence]

actually, going by Manual of the Planes, Erythnul does that to his worshippers.

Gehenna, the Abyss, Tartarus, Hades, Nine Hells, all of these are very unpleasant for their inhabitants.

Even Acheron isn't exactly Going to Disneyland- Wee Jas is famous for abducting spellcasters from all over the planes, putting them to tests they never pass, and so killing them. Or, for more soldierly types, its endless war- a bit like Ysgard, but nastier.

And Pandemonium- howling plane of madness.

so, unless evil being is very very powerful when it dies, its afterlife will be pretty horrible, unless it was very very devout and deity is very generous (for an evil deity)

Some deities are exceptions to the general rule for the plane (followers of Kurtalmak or Sekolah become fiendish kobolds or sahaugin) but their deities can still be pretty ruthless to the souls- Sekolah, for example, is surrounded by sahaugin moving in formation, as he swims, and he snaps up any who move a little out of place.

in the case of several planes (Hell, the Abyss, Hades, its more like torture and/or eradication of original personality.

[Prak]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that saving V's family is, at the moment, very much the wrong reason to seek ultimate arcane power.

Has everybody forgotten that the entire world is in danger of ceasing to exist?

If a path to ultimate arcane power is available, taking it in order to save the entire world is a pretty good reason. By comparison, taking it just because you want to save your family is downright selfish.

Taking a Faustian deal for selfish reasons (even if they are only selfish when compared to saving the world) is never a good idea. On the other hand, sacrificing your soul in a completely non-selfish way may be the loophole that gets you out of the deal after you've gotten what you wanted. (See the movie Constantine, for example.)

If V says "I accept your offer" (or whatever) and her only motivation is the short sighted saving of her family, I'd have to say that she'd then become an NPC and it's time for a new wizard to join OOTS. 'Cuz that's all the wrong reasons.

w

aw crap it's going to be a matrix reloaded moment...

"I saved my mate!"
"Um... what about the rest of the world? You were supposed to be finding a way to get in contact with Hailey, so we could get the group back together, get to the next gate, and make sure the snarl doesn't get released..."
"Oh.... um... ....Well.... we can still do that!!"
"Really... well, in case you haven't noticed, that's the snarl's FOOT coming down over there..."
"We can still do that!!"
"Dammit NeoV, you're an idiot..."


Or, alternatively, if you don't believe in said higher-ups. What with the wall of souls and all. Or am I getting my lore mixed up again?
I think that's a specific setting, but sounds about right.


actually, going by Manual of the Planes, Erythnul does that to his worshippers.

Gehenna, the Abyss, Tartarus, Hades, Nine Hells, all of these are very unpleasant for their inhabitants.

Even Acheron isn't exactly Going to Disneyland- Wee Jas is famous for abducting spellcasters from all over the planes, putting them to tests they never pass, and so killing them. Or, for more soldierly types, its endless war- a bit like Ysgard, but nastier.

And Pandemonium- howling plane of madness.

so, unless evil being is very very powerful when it dies, its afterlife will be pretty horrible, unless it was very very devout and deity is very generous (for an evil deity)

in the case of several planes (Hell, the Abyss, Hades, its more like torture and/or eradication of original personality.
Dammit, and the manual is so integral as to almost be core...

all I can say is "Not in my campaigns" and just put up with it else where...

[hamishspence]

also, since its an LE imp and his bosses making the offer, that means Nine hells, which means transformation into lemure when V dies- the aforementioned eradication of personality by torture, "death" and reincarnation as a mindless, shivering lemure.

[Prak]

also, since its an LE imp and his bosses making the offer, that means Nine hells, which means transformation into lemure when V dies- the aforementioned eradication of personality by torture, "death" and reincarnation as a mindless, shivering lemure.

There's a lot more to it than just that if you go by FC2...

However, V's powerful enough he might get a better deal...

[hamishspence]

true, it did suggest possibly, once in a long while, of bringing back villain as a high level devil, who has skipped the memory erasure.

Its also one of the things devils bargain with when trying to tempt souls on the Fugue plane in Faerun "Souls can bargian for early promotion past lemure" "exceptionally powerful souls can bargain for automatic promotion to a type of devil other than lemure"

[AngelKiller777]

I would say V's motivations are purely to save his family and not to salvage his pride. When he says "i cannot fail again" it's because failure directly results in his family dieing a horrible death, and "I need power. NOW!" is because he's a wizard and arcane power is all he's got; kind of suffering from the "to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail" syndrome for a while now.

I also seriously doubt that he expects to come out on top with this bargain either. In Comic 626 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0626.html) he clearly shows that he knows the folly of selling ones soul.

On a side note real life IFCC = International Federation of Christian Churches, epic irony.

[RedMike512]

I'll be sad to see V sell his soul, but I'll be excited to see how powerful he becomes afterward, and to see if he gets to whoop that dragon.

One more thought- has anyone suggested this might be an evil ploy between the imp, the dragon, and maybe the imp's boss to drive V off the deep end and into this bargain? Maybe the dragon doesn't really plan on doing anything to the family, he just wants to trick V. It would still be good revenge.

[Prak]

On a side note real life IFCC = International Federation of Christian Churches, epic irony.

It's not irony, so much as art imitating life...

[Ubi Dubium]

IFCC = Infernal Faustian Contract Corporation?

[noncaloric]

Selling your soul to fiends to save your family strikes me more as saying the wrong thing to the wrong being for all the right reasons.

[DanReiv]

I like that, V could very well be tricked.

The kid's sould binding always bothered me anyways. She can't get a true res, miracle or wish (it would work accordind to srd - one wish to get the body, another to res him) But 2 scrolls of soul bind no problem ?

If she really wanted her son back, she would have taken 2 wish scrolls.

I wonder what failure V is refering to, not sure he was talking about his fight with the dragon...

[RebelRogue]

Dun dun duuuuuuun!!!

[docstrange]

Actually this might not be so bad - V should be able to get his soul back as long as he's disciplined enough to pay more than the monthly minimum, avoids late fees, etc. He must have seen the ads, you know, the ones with the barbarian hordes: "Infernal One! What's in your bag of holding?"

[HOLEkevin]

Vaarsuvius Majere! I loved the pre-approval form… especially the address! Of course being evil shouldn't make V any less committed to Roy and co., though it may untie his/her hands on how to deal with a few situations.

I am really curious to see exactly what V gets out of the deal.

[Marduk Prophet]

"Mr. Elf, Sir"

Speaking of the Snarl, its possible they will give V great power without trying to control him "too" much. At least not until the Snarl is stopped. V may be slowly turned evil but I don't think the forces of evil would sabotage a high level spellcaster and make him stray from the goal of stopping something the demons, devils and everything in existence can agree needs to be stopped.


"You got it, sister" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)

[Niley]

Dun Dun Dun DUNNNNN! :smallbiggrin:
Let's buy V a shiny new Book of Vile Darkness for birthday. (S)He's going to need it!

[hamishspence]

Would you say V's "pre approval" suggests that V is both A: Not Evil Now, and B: Has done evil enough to attract the attention of the Nine Hells?

Or would you say its more a case of All 15th+ level wizards are important enough to be pre-approved, and they haven't been paying attention to what V's been up to?

[Vitriolic Tonic]

Well, that settles it. I don't think there's any way the dragon wouldn't have forseen this, and given how determined and careful it's been so far, chances are V's going to arrive too late and have struck the deal for nothing.

And then we'll probably have our Anakin moment.

Actually, given the penchant of old, evil dragons for elaborate and brutal revenge schemes, I wouldn't be surprised if it had actually planned all this from the beginning and bargained with devils itself to set V up for a fall into darkness.

[Lokasenna]

Wow. Adopted, huh? That would explain why they're both 26. Well, a more reasonable explanation at least.

[Marduk Prophet]

Or would you say its more a case of All 15th+ level wizards are important enough to be pre-approved, and they haven't been paying attention to what V's been up to?

With a high enough 'credit score', you can get pre-approved for just about anything.

I have every belief that V has been under a watchful eye for some time, however.

[motub]

I would say V's motivations are purely to save his family and not to salvage his pride. When he says "i cannot fail again" it's because failure directly results in his family dieing a horrible death, and "I need power. NOW!" is because he's a wizard and arcane power is all he's got;
Ah, see, you've missed the subtlety of this whole thing.

It's all about the "I, I, I".

V's assumption is not that "my family must be saved", but that "I must save my family". If V does not save hir family, then V has failed. V needs power so that V can do the saving.

It would never occur to V to say "Here's my soul; save my family, whole, sane, and free of soul, by any means necessary, even if those means do not involve me acting in any way whatsoever." No, no-- V is going to say something along the lines of "Here's my soul; give me ultimate arcane power, so that I and I alone can successfully be the agent (note the second assumption here-- that if invested with ultimate arcane power, of course V can and will succeed, which is actually not a "given", even if V does possess such immense magical power) of my family's salvation."

Yeah, V's got hir eyes on the prize, alright, but the prize is not the rescue of hir family-- the prize is V "finally" being "good/competent enough" to accomplish whatever goal shi deems worthy.

V isn't selling hir soul to pay for a major intervention by someone else, oh no-- even if that was the surest manner to achieve the stated goal (save the family).

[Kaytara]

Wow. Qarr is certainly an experienced conman, isn't he? He deliberately draws out their search for a solution, forcing V to spell out the problems and waste time, becoming more desperate. He specifically does NOT suggest the most profitable solution, instead waiting for V to suggest it. When V does, Qarr shows just the right amount of reluctance and explains that it likely won't be accepted or will take too long to help, anyway, so that when it IS accepted, IMMEDIATELY, Vaarsuvius is outright relieved and has to jump at this chance rather than waste more time wondering if this really is such a good idea.
That's some hardcore psychology there.

My interpretation, at least. The speed of the reply certainly implies that the higher-ups have had their eye on V for a while now. And Qarr's uncertainty of whether V would warrant a Faustian Bargain contradicts his earlier statement that V as a high-level wizard has a lot of personal power.

However, I think that even if the devils ARE in league with the dragon, Qarr isn't aware of that part, since he was perfectly willing to completely shed his pretence at humble politeness the moment he thought Vaarsuvius was a goner. And then he switched right back to wanting to "help" V after the dragon had gone. Opportunism of the purest kind.

I also think Qarr has been deliberately playing dumb in order to drive V into a false sense of security due to his intelligence. Qarr has, after all, been nothing but wily and cynical in all of his appearances with Therkla earlier.

EDIT: As for Vaarsuvius' motivations, the fact that he obviously considers himself to have certain responsibilities and thinks that he should be capable of carrying them out does not mean that he DOESN'T care about his family. The two go hand-in-hand. He's perfectly concerned for his family as individuals but also feels to need to prove it to himself (now more than ever, after his failures) that he is capable of accomplishing his goals.
I would even venture a guess that Vaarsuvius' motivation for leaving home to study magic was in order to become powerful enough to protect his family and his mate, a mere baker. It is possible an earlier traumatic failure played a role, too.

[talkamancer]

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: Now strike me down and your journey to the dark side will be complete. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Vaarsuvius4181]

i was thinking "I ACCEPT YOUR OFFER" or "I REQUIRE POWER, NOW!"

[Nymyrra]

I don't think its lame at all. It further opens up and entertains the possibility that V is either gay or a lesbian, which would be really great, in my opinion. Its not often you see a homosexual protagonist in fantasy (I can only think of three or four authors total, in fact) - especially one whose sexuality is not a focus of the story or enforces a stereotype, and is just one part of who they are.

I'm not certain if we'll ever know for sure... but I remain hopeful :smallbiggrin:

I agree with you! Absolutely; society puts such great emphasis on sexuality that a character's homosexuality or bisexuality tends to become a focus point of his or her character; very few writers have these expressions of sexuality as nonchalantly present as heterosexuality is in other characters. Can you tell me the names of the three/four authors you are thinking of?

[SkredlitheOgre]

That was just awesome. V actually needing help from someone and being wholly frustrated by it? Can't see THAT too many times!

[hamishspence]

Mercedes Lackey's Vanyel Ashkevron- she also did a few secondary characters, in the same setting.

[motub]

I would even venture a guess that Vaarsuvius' motivation for leaving home to study magic was in order to become powerful enough to protect his family and his mate, a mere baker.
Protect them from... what, exactly? Some overarching threat that even V's Master was not only not aware of, but had no capacity to protect the village from?

And V hasn't said a word about it to anyone, but the only solution is for V (not the Master, not anybody else, just V) to hare off and get "ultimate arcane power" to defeat this threat to the happy family, blissfully making macaroni pictures and baking banana nut muffins?

OK, I'm buying it :smallsmile:. Not.

[Freelance Henchman]

Jokes about ridiculously bureaucratic evil always make me laugh for some reason :smallsmile: And I'm really enjoying the imp, very funny character.

[HandofShadows]

Excellent. This story is keeping everyone wondering whats going to happen nest.

[The Minx]

I wonder about the fiendish overlord intentions...

Are the fiends thinking of some specific return on their investment? Their overlords know about the gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), thanks to Sabine. I wonder whether they are hoping for V to be their agent in capturing the gates for them.

Of course, these are devils, and Sabine's bosses may be demons, but once word about big stuff like this gets out, it may very well spread.

[Sunday]

Can you tell me the names of the three/four authors you are thinking of?

in YAFGC (http://yafgc.shipsinker.com/) there is a big thing going between Lucas and Cadugan. They're not hooked up or anything, but the entire fanbase is rooting for it after they kissed, and the Lucas rejected Cadugan for having an elf faerie forresty moment. course it's like 100 comics on from that now, and Cadugan and Lucas are having some good hostile air around them. Everyone went whoop when Cadugan slept with wolf (a male drow hottie) when he was polymorphed to a woman. With everyone being hopefuly that wolf will be slightly scandelised when he figures out he slept with a man :smallbiggrin:


anyways... with all this emphisis on V and his own selfish need to be the one with all the power and the capability. I still think that perhaps this whole selling of the soul might be for waste if V. sells it and he gets there and the dragon is already slain. It would go with Rich's general theme that not everyone but the PC's are hopeless. that bad can win, and that the impossible is not impossible but rarely thought of. It would just be a whole lot more tragic. Though I don't know if it'd be more tragic than V. getting there and finding he was too late anyway.

[Kaytara]

Protect them from... what, exactly? Some overarching threat that even V's Master was not only not aware of, but had no capacity to protect the village from?

And V hasn't said a word about it to anyone, but the only solution is for V (not the Master, not anybody else, just V) to hare off and get "ultimate arcane power" to defeat this threat to the happy family, blissfully making macaroni pictures and baking banana nut muffins?

OK, I'm buying it :smallsmile:. Not.

You don't have to be so snarky in your reply to something that was specifically stated to be a wild guess. :smallconfused:

V hasn't said a word to anyone about a great many things. Apart from Haley nobody in the Order seems to know anything about V at all.
And there doesn't need to be an overarching threat to make the head of the family want to be able to protect that family, especially in a DnD-based world. Obviously Vaarsuvius has been interested in magic long before he had started a family. But Vaarsuvius didn't seem to have a problem with taking his sweet time studying magic at Aarindarius' tower. According to the comic, he left his homeland in search for arcane power after starting a family, not before. That implies, for me at least, that there was some sort of trigger that made him realize that he couldn't afford to just sit around reading books in order to become more powerful and that he needed to actively pursue that power.

I'd like to submit the hypothesis that the adopted kids are the progeny of some close friend of V's who had died a premature death. After adopting them, V felt the need to make sure he would be powerful enough to prevent any threat to them in the future. Hopefully we'll see more of V's backstory in the next few comics.

[Milanius]

wait... no fine print??

Powers That Be must really want that elf :smalleek:

[bluedolphin359]

I think that the power V gets may be conditional. Like, some kind of bargain that states that the eviler V acts, the more power s/he gets. That would be a brilliant way of running V deeper into evil, and would also bring the possibility of Belkar's death into play (i.e. Vaarsuvius gets evil enough to kill and soul bind Belkar)

Edit: Does the addressing of this remind anyone else of the letters to Harry in the first Harry Potter book?

[The Minx]

wait... no fine print??

Powers That Be must really want that elf :smalleek:

Ya, I though that too. But there are possibilities. Some of the clauses may be in code, or in some obscure language like Ignan or something, using font types which look like decorative patterns. Or they might use doublespeak. Or they know V and/or the general situation better than s/he does, and are confident that s/he will do what they want, ultimately. Or they simply know that V will agree to anything at this point. There are plenty of ways they can fool a prospective contractee.

[hewhosaysfish]

I'll be sad to see V sell his soul, but I'll be excited to see how powerful he becomes afterward, and to see if he gets to whoop that dragon.

One more thought- has anyone suggested this might be an evil ploy between the imp, the dragon, and maybe the imp's boss to drive V off the deep end and into this bargain? Maybe the dragon doesn't really plan on doing anything to the family, he just wants to trick V. It would still be good revenge.

I don't think the dragon is in on it; I think the dragon's plan for revenge does genuinely involve slaughtering V's family. But who sent the dragon after V?

The Oracle. The Oracle of Tiamt, the Lawful Evil goddess of Evil dragons who resides in (one of) the Nine Hells.
Pre-approved? Someone was ready for this...

[Maribel]

"I cannot fail again" + "adopted progeny" = ????

My first reaction was "V is impotent".

[MattR]

Four little words! ''I cannot fail again!'' and suddenly the imp becomes all helpful! Seems like the perfect way to become evil for the wrong reason... to avoid failure.

[TheAmishPirate]

Ha! I'm horribly amused that, through all of the speculation and pondering, Quaar is just another little imp cog in the grand machine of the lower planes. Sure, he did good with nabbing V's attention and all, but I think that he was half-sincere about his reluctance. And all this time, what he had to trade were spell ingredients for getting some evil chalice that he only cared about because his boss was on his back.

Great comic. I can't wait to see where this goes...

[factotum]

Would you say V's "pre approval" suggests that V is both A: Not Evil Now, and B: Has done evil enough to attract the attention of the Nine Hells?

Or would you say its more a case of All 15th+ level wizards are important enough to be pre-approved, and they haven't been paying attention to what V's been up to?

I vote for D--None Of the Above. I suspect V has been under close scrutiny by the lower powers because of his association with the Order of the Stick and the Snarl quest. They can't get to the Snarl via Xykon (he doesn't work well with a boss over him--see Start of Darkness) or Redcloak (fanatically devoted to the Dark One), and they already have their agent in the Linear Guild's camp, so I suspect that pre-approved Faustian bargain has been on file for some time down in the depths of Hell!

[Aimbot]

V is having a pretty ****ty Valentines day...

Proof positive he's male.

[Tingel]

Ha! I'm horribly amused that, through all of the speculation and pondering, Quaar is just another little imp cog in the grand machine of the lower planes. Sure, he did good with nabbing V's attention and all, but I think that he was half-sincere about his reluctance. And all this time, what he had to trade were spell ingredients for getting some evil chalice that he only cared about because his boss was on his back.
I don't believe that. Qarr's demeanor on the island has been noticeably different from before. I think he is a very capable Mephistopheles and puts on an act. He wanted Vaarsuvius' corruption ever since he saw him leaving the fleet, or maybe even ever since the elf petrified the pit fiend. As a masterful manipulator and judge of character, he puts on a act on the island so that he may best corrupt the wizard. Vaarsuvius is excessively arrogant and suffers from megalomania, as we all know. That means he has to feel as if he is in control of the situation, at least partly. I think that's what Qarr is going for - manipulating the elf in such a way that he himself brings up the Faustian bargain. The vengeful black dragon was obviously a godsend (or rather hellsend) for Qarr, so luring Vaarsuvius to the Dark Side is not his achievement alone, but I'm still convinced that he is faking cluelessness and powerlessness to a certain degree, and that about half of what he says is a lie.


EDIT: I just noticed that Kaytara basically said the same thing a few posts ago.

[Palliard]

I dunno. "I cannot fail again!" sort of stuck out at me.

Me too. I don't think that's the fabled "four words", but that's what lies in V's heart at the moment. He will do whatever it takes, without fail, with complete disregard to his own well-being.

Admirable in a way, but he's not reckoning the costs that will be racked up in the future. V paying this debt off is going to get way ugly.

[Saint Nil]

:smallsigh: Spoiler in case I'm right, but I think you people are taking the 4 words too literally.

The four words were Distegrate. Gust of Wind because it set V on th epath for ultimate power. These words brought V here, whihc is just as important as the actual I agree part.

So, great work on making this fall both dramatic and funny at the same time giant.:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I bet the "no fine print" has fine print.:smalltongue:

[Myou]

V is having a pretty ****ty Valentines day...

Proof positive he's male.

I see him a male, but nothing in that comic proves it.

[Mr. Pin]

This is awful! I can see so many ways in which Vaarsuvius can be tricked, manipulated, and generally screwed over. That is the way in which most of these bargains turn out- anyone read the "Fiend of Temptation" prestige class in the Fiend Folio? This is bound to turn out with dead bakermate, dead little children, A fast-becoming-more-evil Vaarsuvius, and an Order that's more shattered than the Fellowship in the Two Towers.

[SoC175]

Shouldn't the zip code on the return address be 00666?
The 9th layer of hell is the deepest

[MickJay]

I don't think V is going to get the power he wants now (unless he sees it as power sufficient to protect his family? who knows?). If the power is supposed to come to him through the pact, it's more likely to be at the time of fulfilling the bargain (whatever that will be) on V's side (unless the devils are going to be satisfied merely with his soul).

[Amarsir]

society puts such great emphasis on sexuality that a character's homosexuality or bisexuality tends to become a focus point of his or her character; very few writers have these expressions of sexuality as nonchalantly present as heterosexuality is in other characters.
While there's some truth to that, we could assume that every character ever written who's love life is not explored is gay. But we don't. The default assumption is that they are not. And so it takes an explicit statement.

We don't generally see a man say "I'm going to go home and have heterosexual intercourse with my female wife." It's not even implied unless it's important to the plot. There just isn't the opportunity to express their sexuality unless it's important, and then by necessity it's a focus point.

I'm reminded of what I thought was a bit of awesomemenss on Law & Order. (Many disagree.) Creator Richard Wolf had been getting pressure from advocacy groups to make one of the main characters gay. His answer was basically "Look, this is a procedural crime show. We don't get into their home lives. For all you know, we already have gay characters." But they said they needed it to be explicitly mentioned.

So it came that Elisabeth Röhm, who played Serena Southerlyn, was leaving the show. It was written that the character would leave because she was fired. At the end of the last show, her boss Arthur Branch says "I don't think you are sufficiently objective to be a prosecutor. You're fired."

Southerlyn famously replies "Is this because I'm a lesbian?"

"No. Of course not."

"Good."

And that was the end of it.

Obviously the groups that were pressing for a gay character were annoyed. But I love it because it proved his point and demonstrates what I'm saying here - that because a homosexual character requires that affirmation, it's either plot central or comically trivial.

[Starwaster]

Oh and HAH! i KNEW it was a guy

Mr. elf Sir

perfectly obvious

Don't think for a second that the imp's addressing V as 'Mr' or 'Sir' is a clue as to V's gender.

Go back through the strips and you'll see that V is randomly referred to and addressed as both male and female depending on who is doing the addressing.

Sabine thinks that V is a woman and addresses her as 'sister' when talking to him/her/hir in the bar.

[Daedalus73]

Yikes. Please don't let V sell his soul. :smallfrown:

[Sotris]

You know, I remember Rich having used a very similar example with the situation we have here in one of his gaming articles: About a Good character forced to do evil to save his family from death.

Perhaps all is not lost yet, and V will simply be forced to do evil, not become evil. It will certainly provide more inner turmoil and perhaps work for character developement in the end- but then, I always was a hopeless optimist.

[SirEdward]

Whoa. Awesome comic today.

I'm wondering, though...it looks like the prophecy's on its way to being fulfilled, with V gaining ultimate arcane power. But the prophecy mentioned "for all the wrong reasons." Can anything s/he says right now, while trying to save h** family, adopted or otherwise, really be "for all the wrong reasons"?

Unless V makes a dramatic turn for the dark, but given how worried s/he is, s/he's got their best interests at heart, and that has to count for something. The only way I can see the prophecy coming out here is if V makes it irrevocably clear that s/he's doing it for personal pride rather than h** family's safety.

I really hope that's not the case.
It could be pride, but then again, it could be because he's saving a few smelly mammalians from a beautiful (single female), ancient black dragon. Consider who's point of view this is from, a kobold worshipping Tiamat, diety of chromatic dragons.

[Drakron]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

[Heritage]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the possible impact of adopted children on the traditional 'first born' clause :smallwink: And I agree it's cool that V and Other Parent could be in a same-sex relationship if we want them to be.

Also I just had a thought: what if Qarr is Sabine in disguise? That 10% is her's for sure!

[Faramir]

So now we know that hell invented both cold calling and junk mail. Suspected as much.

Adopted. So now we don't even know if V and V's mate are M/F, M/M or F/F.

This sums up my general reaction pretty well:


Well played mr Giant. Well played indeed.

"You've been PRE-APPROVED!" Great, the funniest comic involving selling of souls and eating of children, ever.

[Gez]

"I cannot fail again!" - Possible that V failed before, V's real kids were killed, V adopted another set.

On 00999... flipped upside down is 666. On internet, some people tag 777 behind their user ids to claim they are "Christians", "born again", etc, and some user ids have either 666 or 999 tagged to end to claim evil, with 999 being more hidden means. (I think theory is 7 is "complete/perfect", eg 7 days to week, 6 is shy of complete, 666 is 3x witnessed shy of complete/imperfect, and 999 is hidden way of having 666)

So likely a play both on 9 and 666.

777 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmod) means full read/write/execute access for every user. :smalltongue:


I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that saving V's family is, at the moment, very much the wrong reason to seek ultimate arcane power.

Has everybody forgotten that the entire world is in danger of ceasing to exist?

Plus, Vaarsuvius is the one who was always insisting that they stop going on side quests in order to concentrate on Xykon and the gates.

[Killed]

I think the four words were, "Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Disintegrate, Disintegrate." Four times V tried to disintegrate the imp and that was the point at which the Dragon appeared because V had used a sizable amount of his/her higher level spells at that point. As further evidence I'd point to Haley's prophecy of don't look a gift horse in the mouth, while going on a date with Nale didn't directly cause her to regain her speech it did start a series of events that led to it. Much like V trying to disintegrate the Imp.

Although by similar logic it could also be the disintegrate, gust of wind as mentioned earlier.

[Warlord JK]

Awesome comic. The reasons V might be doing this though is not so much for h** family, but because s/he feels s/he can't fail again. Of course, it's hard to tell right now, but if in the next comic V is talking more about h** failing rather than h** worry for h** family then we know the prophecy is about to come true.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I hope the Giant totally subverts the "V had to do evil to do good" trope. I mean, we only need one Anakin Skywalker killing a Temple of kids to save his wife and unborn babies...

:smallyuk:

[Nahal]

Warlord's got it. This isn't about saving V's family, it's about pride. If saving V's mate and children was theonly concern, then having a Pit Fiend gate in to kill the dragon would be a quicker option. While V is trying to pursue a noble end, it is for the wrong reasons. A big part of him craves more power, and ultimately that's what is calling the shots at the moment.

Anyone familiar with the Dresden Files series (or any number of books, I'm sure) will have seen something like this before. At the end of one of the books, Harry becomes infested with a fragment of a fallen Angel's consciousness because he clamps his hand over the coin it inhabits when it rolls near his best friend's infant son. He could have just moved the child out of the way, but his subconscious chose a route that would both accomplish the nobler objective (keeping a child from being warped by having a demon in his brain) and a much darker one (gaining himself access to the power said demon offers).

[Deatheater]

Edit: Does the addressing of this remind anyone else of the letters to Harry in the first Harry Potter book?

Yes! I wasn't the only one... ;)

EDIT: In fact there may be more people who noticed it...who are also having problems posting because of the server. Sigh...

[snafu]

On 00999... flipped upside down is 666. On internet, some people tag 777 behind their user ids to claim they are "Christians", "born again", etc, and some user ids have either 666 or 999 tagged to end to claim evil, with 999 being more hidden means. (I think theory is 7 is "complete/perfect", eg 7 days to week, 6 is shy of complete, 666 is 3x witnessed shy of complete/imperfect, and 999 is hidden way of having 666)

So likely a play both on 9 and 666.

Well, if Man is five, then the Devil is six. And if the Devil is six, then God is seven. This monkey's gone to heaven.

Anyway, 666 is read and write, but not execute, for all users.

[Drakron]

... having a Pit Fiend gate in to kill the dragon would be a quicker option.

Yes, its a good idea to let loose one of the most powerful devils types in the middle of a elven settlement since I am sure the elves being Chaotic Good really do not mind when a incarnation of Lawful Evil decides to show up.

... Serious ...

Missing the point of strip 630?

[Moff Chumley]

This comic was epic win of the highest order.

[silvadel]

I just notices something upon re-reading it. The imp actually has a surprised and worried look in the second to last panel where he examines the letter.

[multilis]

There are volumes of books that cannot even begin to contain the vitriol backing up my mind's voice box right now...

The number 666 is "evil" because it is the "number of the beast". In the Book of Revelations, "The Beast", or Satan, is assigned this as his number. The number isn't arbitrary, either, it is the numeralogical value of Emperor Nero's name (them Jews are damned good at political satire).

The number 777 is also biblical, but I cannot provide a source, but it is "The Number of Heaven".These are all *theories* the actual biblical does *not* describe 777 as holy or why 666.

Numeralogical can be used to "prove" many things, if you count the hits and ignore the misses.

Much of what people claim is "biblical" or "christian" comes from post biblical traditions or other sources including the "sell your soul" idea.

[Aimbot]

I see him a male, but nothing in that comic proves it.

Might want to get your sarcasm detector checked, I think the needle's stuck.

[Myou]

Might want to get your sarcasm detector checked, I think the needle's stuck.

You might want to practice being sarcastic.

[Nevrmore]

How long does a teleport take? This dragon should already have V's family in her lower intestines by now.

[Belphegor]

Anyway, I bet the "no fine print" has fine print.:smalltongue:

I bet "no fine print" has either invisible print or incomprehensible demon language runes for ALL YOUR SOUL BELONG TO US.

[Jural]

The way this is going, I still don't know what V's four words will be, but I have a pretty good guess as to...
when he will say them- i.e. strip 666!

A few other thoughts:

1) If V is homosexual or not doesn't ruin the character for me, but I really don't see how it becoming a focal point of the strip would be good for the strip. I don't think the author "lacks the courage to do it" as I have seen implied, but rather is intelligent enough to know what fits in his story and what doesn't.

2) I can't get a read on Qarr. I tend to take him at face value and think he had no plans to put V into a Faustian bargain. The only way that is plausible is if he was in league with the dragon, which I just haven't seen any indications of yet. But if he did have goals of the Faustian bargain... well I'd say he is the consumate salesman!

[KIDS]

Adopted progeny, interesting. That also opens the way for all kinds of homose....errrr, I mean homes.

I wonder what kind of power and debt V can gain now, it's certainly disturbing that the greater fiends who approve those have been watching all of that.

[Trazoi]

I bet "no fine print" has either invisible print or incomprehensible demon language runes for ALL YOUR SOUL BELONG TO US.
I've never quite understood why so many stories use the tricksy use of ultra-unreadable fine print, often encased in a microdot in one of the i's (maybe in "No fine print"). Contract law does not work that way! Contracts are only valid if both parties fully understand the terms of the agreement at point of signing, and sneaking anything in underhandedly invalidates the agreement.

[Underground]

Whow !

Rich does an Anakin ... at it WORKS ! :smallbiggrin:

Awesome !!!

Guess George Lucas should have asked Mr. Burlew's for help for doing the second Triology ...

[pnewman]

Are V's robes going to change from red to black once s/he takes the deal,
or is that too much of a Raistlin?

If color changes are good enough for fallen Paladins doesn't selling your soul deserve an art 'upgrade' too?

[stsasser]

IFCC = Infernal Faustian Contract Corporation?

Infernal Finance Credit Corporation?

[silvadel]

Opens the letter -- Hey this isnt a pre-approval... It just says I prepared explosive runes this morning.... Boom.

[pendell]

*Clap clap clap clap clap*

WELL told!

Of course it's an asininely stupid thing for V to do. But ze *deliberately requested* the deal. It's a wrong thing to do on many levels, but it's an accurate development of the character. So I applaud.

And the last panel was priceless. Very funny.

One small issue: Red-robed magic user makes deal with an evil being in exchange for achieving Ultimate Arcane Power? Where *have* we seen that before?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[lordhaw]

Junk mail can find you anywhere :smalltongue:

I actually missed the adoption thing completely in the text until I started looking at this thread....had to go back and reread it twice. Don't read OOTS after having a few :smallwink:

Can't wait to see what's going on, though I have my suspicions

[Lauren]

Edit: Does the addressing of this remind anyone else of the letters to Harry in the first Harry Potter book?

Yep. It was exactly what I was thought of, and I laughed. Then I felt guilty for laughing when V's in so much distress.

[stevekgoodwin]

Mr. elf Sir

perfectly obvious

I was at the pub last night and a man walks up to the bar, the bartender says "Yes, sir?" and the man tuns out to be a woman (we're not talking Sports Illustrated here).

Just sayin'.

(And pick up the pace please Mr Burlew!)

[Prak]

Vaarsuvius Majere! I loved the pre-approval form… especially the address! Of course being evil shouldn't make V any less committed to Roy and co., though it may untie his/her hands on how to deal with a few situations.

I am really curious to see exactly what V gets out of the deal.


Well they've already got one evil character, and since he's going to start pretending to have learned a lesson, they'll need a new overtly evil person.


note the second assumption here-- that if invested with ultimate arcane power, of course V can and will succeed, which is actually not a "given", even if V does possess such immense magical powe
Actually, no it is a given. Arcane power is the ability to remold reality to your whims and goals, if you can't use it to save your family, it's not ultimate.


Of course, these are devils, and Sabine's bosses may be demons, but once word about big stuff like this gets out, it may very well spread.
No, actually it's very likely that Sabine's bosses (various demon lords) didn't spread word of this around, especially to the devils. The Demons and Devils are opposite sides of the same evil coin and are on constant war footing with one another. However, it's entirely likely and probable that THE boss of Devils, Asmodeus, knows about the snarl, The only reason Asmodeus isn't a god is because, well, I honestly don't know why he isn't usually treated as an evil god, but I think it has something to do with him playing his plan very close to the chest and wanting to rule everything, and not bringing even evil gods in on it. But he probably knows about the snarl from before he was a devil, back when he was a warrior of Law under the thumb of the gods of Law.


Yikes. Please don't let V sell his soul.
why the frak not? Why is everyone so damned down on V selling his soul? Is it because some invisible bearded bastard in the sky says that the invisible goateed guy in the earth is evil? News for you, the guy who says selling your soul is wrong is responsible for more deaths than the guy buying it. In fact the guy buying your soul has gotten a raw damned deal from the bearded bastard at every turn.
Speaking as a satanist who has just as much chance to influence the plot as any white lighter reading this (which is to say none), LET V SELL HIR DAMNED SOUL!! LET THE DEVILS SHOW THAT THEY CAN DEAL FAIRLY!! LET EVIL BE BENEFICIAL FOR ONCE IN THE ENTIRE DAMNED HISTORY OF LITERATURE!! This is pissing me off, everyone thinks that selling your soul is bad, that being evil is bad, that's only true in an abrahamic world, D&D has not one damned touch of Abrahamic religion, being evil is supported by half the damned gods, and all good and evil is in D&D is a cosmic game of frakking Capture the damned Flag! Good and Evil, Law and Chaos are no more than ethnic hats in D&D. Would people be freakign out if V were to sell hir soul to the frogs of chaos? no. Would they freak out if V were to sell hir soul to the geometric shapes of Law? no. Would people be freaking out if V were to sell hir soul to the fluffy frakking bunnies of good? no. Evil is no damned different, except that it'd be more inclined to kill a weak excuse for a mind that got in it's way because it's not busy suppressing it's basic animal nature.

[/rant] before I say something that gets me banned...


These are all *theories* the actual biblical does *not* describe 777 as holy or why 666.
Did I say the bible did? No, I just said the numbers were in the bible, and why 666 was in the bible.


Numeralogical can be used to "prove" many things, if you count the hits and ignore the misses.
Or you can assign the logical values to letters and add them up....


Much of what people claim is "biblical" or "christian" comes from post biblical traditions or other sources including the "sell your soul" idea.
this is true, and for judaism as well.

[kyklopes]

To fight Zykon, the OotS needs a power boost. This infernal pact may be the way this is done, though it ends up costing V in the long run.

However, as a fan of V., I'm hoping he refuses the Faustian bargain. The four words are going to be something like, "I can't accept this" -- not because accepting the deal is wrong, but because the terms aren't good enough. That'll be the right thing to say, for the wrong reason. Seemingly losing everything, V. succeeds when we find out it's not just the Infernal Home Office that's been watching him.

And about how long till the Dragon succeeds in his threat -- there's nothing to say the Parent and Kids are home when the Dragon gets there. They could be on a Baker's Quest for weeks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

No! Don't do it, V!

[Gamiress]

/snip

It's important to remember that in D&D, even a world only based on D&D, Evil is not defined by the writings of Anton LaVey. In the alignment system, Evil is set down as "deliberately causing harm to others", Lawful Evil appends "for personal gain", and Chaotic Evil appends "for giggles". You're barking up the wrong species of plant entirely.

[Prak]

It's important to remember that in D&D, even a world only based on D&D, Evil is not defined by the writings of Anton LaVey. In the alignment system, Evil is set down as "deliberately causing harm to others", Lawful Evil appends "for personal gain", and Chaotic Evil appends "for giggles". You're barking up the wrong species of plant entirely.

D&D has evil gods, these evil gods have followers, this implies that evil people aren't getting a raw deal here.

And actually the writings of LaVey work with D&D rather well.

[alethiophile]

It's important to remember that in D&D, even a world only based on D&D, Evil is not defined by the writings of Anton LaVey. In the alignment system, Evil is set down as "deliberately causing harm to others", Lawful Evil appends "for personal gain", and Chaotic Evil appends "for giggles". You're barking up the wrong species of plant entirely.

AFAIK, 'Law' means that you try to follow some specific set of laws, even if they're just your own principles. 'Chaos' means you will do most things to achieve your goal. Likewise, 'Good' means that you shy away from hurting innocents, even in pursuit of a higher purpose; 'Evil' means you don't. They also imply some things about your goals; 'Good' tends to mean you work for purposes higher than your own self-interest, and 'Evil' means you work for your own interests. Moral judgements aren't really relevant--if you consider working mainly for your own interests to be morally objectionable, well, the people aligned Evil don't, so from their POV they aren't doing anything wrong.

[Prak]

AFAIK, 'Law' means that you try to follow some specific set of laws, even if they're just your own principles. 'Chaos' means you will do most things to achieve your goal. Likewise, 'Good' means that you shy away from hurting innocents, even in pursuit of a higher purpose; 'Evil' means you don't. They also imply some things about your goals; 'Good' tends to mean you work for purposes higher than your own self-interest, and 'Evil' means you work for your own interests. Moral judgements aren't really relevant--if you consider working mainly for your own interests to be morally objectionable, well, the people aligned Evil don't, so from their POV they aren't doing anything wrong.

law and chaos don't mean a damned thing in D&D. Read the descriptions in the PHB, they aren't even contradictory. Now look at classes that require a player to be chaotic or lawful, they don't mean anything.

[the_tick_rules]

We need some old school silliness back.

[alethiophile]

law and chaos don't mean a damned thing in D&D. Read the descriptions in the PHB, they aren't even contradictory. Now look at classes that require a player to be chaotic or lawful, they don't mean anything.

I think alignment is largely meant to be meta-information rather than actual game-mechanic stuff, except for a few exceptions such as classes that have alignment requirements. It's a description for people seeing the character of what they can basically be expected to do.

[kusje]

You might want to practice being sarcastic.

Actually I thought it was pretty obvious that he wasn't being serious.

[Prak]

I think alignment is largely meant to be meta-information rather than actual game-mechanic stuff, except for a few exceptions such as classes that have alignment requirements. It's a description for people seeing the character of what they can basically be expected to do.

they would still need to mean something, which they don't.

[Lunaya]

All I know is that in every piece of literature I've ever read, making a deal with devils only turns out well for the devils. This is because the devils do not care about the well being of mortals. The person selling his or her soul typically ends up far worse off. I don't expect Rich to break that trend.

[Rabidferret]

I appreciate what Rich has done with the character. See panel 5 here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) V reject's Qarr's suggestion of virgin's blood because it is "reprehensible, depraved, and most importantly, highly impractical given our current location." The way I read this quote, V still has a semblance of morality but it's losing the battle against the scope of his tasks - to find Haley through the Cloister spell (an impossibility) and now to stop the Ancient Black Dragon (a nigh-impossibility). To me it's clear that Rich wants us to view V's reluctance to commit evil acts as the defining paradox of his or her "fallen" state. It'll be interesting how the character development plays out. My thoughts:

I very much doubt that V's going to acquire his ultimate arcane power very soon. (S)He'll be buffed by his devil-pact no doubt, but by no means will he or she have ultimate arcane power. The completeness of the phrase, to me, indicates that the source of power has to be the Snarl itself.

The Snarl's a god-killing, pantheon-pwning monstrosity. Even an evil deity would have to stretch to meet that description, I'd think. My bet is that V will tap into the Snarl or reach an agreement with it (if it turns out to be sentient), resulting in his or her ultra-empowerment. The result will be an outgrowing his or her demonic handlers in terms of power, and all sorts of fun possibilities for the comic open up if that happens.

So bottom line: we see V buffed in the near future, but it's still a long way before we see the ultimate arcane power coming into play.

Also, I've seen quite a bit being made of the phrase "I cannot fail again!" including all sorts of conjecture about what the previous failures have been. I don't really see any reason to come up with conjectural failures (failed to save his adoptive kids' parents, failed to have kids himself, etc) when the visible plot provides plenty of explanation. V could be talking about his or her failure to save the Azurite soldiers, failure to contact Haley, or even failure to keep Roy from dying. Hell, given V's pronounced ego (s)he probably faults him(her)self for not turning the whole tide of battle at Azure City. So there's no reason to go inventing failures outside the scope of the comic when there are already plenty to pick from.

[Eraniverse]

why the frak not? Why is everyone so damned down on V selling his soul? Is it because some invisible bearded bastard in the sky says that the invisible goateed guy in the earth is evil? News for you, the guy who says selling your soul is wrong is responsible for more deaths than the guy buying it. In fact the guy buying your soul has gotten a raw damned deal from the bearded bastard at every turn.
Speaking as a satanist who has just as much chance to influence the plot as any white lighter reading this (which is to say none), LET V SELL HIR DAMNED SOUL!! LET THE DEVILS SHOW THAT THEY CAN DEAL FAIRLY!! LET EVIL BE BENEFICIAL FOR ONCE IN THE ENTIRE DAMNED HISTORY OF LITERATURE!! This is pissing me off, everyone thinks that selling your soul is bad, that being evil is bad, that's only true in an abrahamic world, D&D has not one damned touch of Abrahamic religion, being evil is supported by half the damned gods, and all good and evil is in D&D is a cosmic game of frakking Capture the damned Flag! Good and Evil, Law and Chaos are no more than ethnic hats in D&D. Would people be freakign out if V were to sell hir soul to the frogs of chaos? no. Would they freak out if V were to sell hir soul to the geometric shapes of Law? no. Would people be freaking out if V were to sell hir soul to the fluffy frakking bunnies of good? no. Evil is no damned different, except that it'd be more inclined to kill a weak excuse for a mind that got in it's way because it's not busy suppressing it's basic animal nature.

Evil beings dealing fairly? Why would they bother?

There's no downside to booping over anyone desperate enough to hand over that which is eternal for some temporary gain. The label evil implies a certain disregard for society's concepts of "fairness." Oh sure, more flies with honey than vinegar, but, as I said, anyone with the desperation needed to entrust their fate for eternity in exchange for a solution to something now isn't someone that will be scared away by a reputation for poor trades. So why should evil deal "fairly?" Why shouldn't they expend minimal effort for maximum reward without regard for the Faust in this situation? What possible line of reasoning would go through the heads of your idealized evil entities that justifies them going out of their way to see that this is resolved well for all parties?

[SirEdward]

Alright, the Bible has several special numbers, often with meanings that can be gleaned from other period writings, archeological evidence, oral traditions, etc. The situation doesn't improve, however, by the fact that the Apocalypse of John (aka Revelation) is written in apocalyptic code.

Yes, 7 does carry a meaning of "fullness", and 777 is recognized as the superlative of fullness, which would be attributed to God (I Am Who Am). As 6 falls short of 7, it is often used to describe man, yet the superlative (666) would describe Antichrist (not Lucifer). This doesn't mean that 666 was a sure thing only on numerological meanings.

I, however, believe that the number 666 is describing one of the names of Emperor Nero, who is historically responsible for starting the First Jewish-Roman War, blaming the Fire of Rome on the Christians and thus persecuting them, martyring both Peter and Paul, demanding to be worshiped as a god, etc. From a neutral perspective, he gets a bum rap for being mad from syphilis and lead (with a dash of mercury) poisoning, but it's from a Christian perspective, and John wanted to hammer home the point in apocalyptic fashion.

Does that mean 666 is special to Lucifer? Not likely, but if a devil wants an address, that's as good as any.

Why the number 9? Read Dante, all of it. Sure, it's not what Dante literally believed hell, purgatory, and heaven were, that wasn't the point. He wrote it as an artistic appeal to his appreciation of Thomistic philosophy and courtly love. Also, it's 3 squared. With that in mind, a letter from Cocytus would certainly look like a plastic usury application.

How many strips does take to get to the center of V's love life? The world will never know.

[SmartAlec]

Re: Four Words The four words were "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." because it set V on the path for ultimate power. These words brought V here, which is just as important as the actual I agree part.

That's much more in keeping with the convoluted way that the Oracle's prophecy concerning Haley worked out, too. The idea being, the Four Words aren't the avalanche ("I accept the offer" would be the avalanche, for sure); the Four Words are the small, unremarkable stone that, once it starts bouncing down the mountain, will eventually set the avalanche off.

[jafar]

Excellent! V selling his/her soul to the devil was the only solution, albeit forced. Now here is the real question:

Was this just a big setup? Is that dragon really a dragon or a demon/devil in disguise? I believe it is a dragon, but I still smell a rat (demon rat). Or perhaps the demon V turned to stone took a look back after banishment and thought "Hello, now there's some power!" As for the four word, "I accept your offer" get my vote.

Ok, two PREDICTIONS (maybe mutually exclusive):

(1) If V was tricked into selling his/her soul, this provides a legal loophole that Celia can drive a truck through. :smallcool:
(2) Breaking the contract will require an EPIC-level adventure to deadbook a Demon Prince. :smallfurious:

Nuff said! :smallamused:

[rxmd]

We need some old school silliness back.
100% agreed!

[Adeptus]

Brilliant on so many levels.

I've personally been in that situation in a great RPG campaign many times. Shadow World (http://homepage.mac.com/terbob/index.html) has the Unlife, a malevolent and soul devouring force that any magician (and in theory anybody) can utilise to gain power beyond what they normally have.

Knowing the cost, a my character has utilised it several times, to save loved ones or to prevent a "greater evil" or personal destruction. Like in all good settings, the costs are terrible and the most morally uptight people will condemn my character to hell just for contemplating such a deed.

I love stories like this, just love them :smallcool:

[Drakron]

Evil beings dealing fairly? Why would they bother?


Devils = lawful evil.

Their entire existence is created from law, sure they are going to push towards their own benefit (since they are evil and not neutral) but in the end they will honor their commitment since their existence is spawned from law and evil.

[hamishspence]

in game, the worst act listed is Murder For Pleasure- 7 point Corrupt act. And even that won't guarantee a place in Nine Hells- 9 Points-worth is needed for that. So a Still Good, Lawful person who has done evil (but not enough evil) has a chance of not being condemned.

And even if they have done enough evil, if the are genuinely repentant, they get a second chance, as a Hellbred (if you're using Fiendish Codex 2)

So you can have a Dark Hero who isn't condemned forever, but they do have to be repentant, rather that utterly proud of what they did and believing that the act was not evil.

on Devils as LE, they do sometimes cheat, but if soul appeals, then appeal must be heard, and if devils did not provide benefits specified in a Pact Certain, soul gets released.

Note "It is possible for a soul to be released, then condemned to Nine Hells on unrelated grounds. Much diabolical laughter then ensues"- being LE enough that they would have gone to Nine Hells even with pact discounted, is an example.

[Nightfall]

I knew it! I KNEW credit cards and pre-approved applications were the work of the devil! :smallbiggrin:

[The Minx]

No, actually it's very likely that Sabine's bosses (various demon lords) didn't spread word of this around, especially to the devils. The Demons and Devils are opposite sides of the same evil coin and are on constant war footing with one another. However, it's entirely likely and probable that THE boss of Devils, Asmodeus, knows about the snarl, The only reason Asmodeus isn't a god is because, well, I honestly don't know why he isn't usually treated as an evil god, but I think it has something to do with him playing his plan very close to the chest and wanting to rule everything, and not bringing even evil gods in on it. But he probably knows about the snarl from before he was a devil, back when he was a warrior of Law under the thumb of the gods of Law.

Ahem, please not that I didn't say that they spread the word, but that the word might have spread. :smallsmile:

I don't know whether the Asmodeus mythos even exists in the OOTS setting, but he was not defined as a god initially because he, and the Nine Hells, represent the medieval European idea of Hell (medieval Europe being monotheistic).

[Magothys]

I knew it! I KNEW credit cards and pre-approved applications were the work of the devil!

http://voltagecreative.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/ackbar.jpg

Vaarsuvius is going to regret this...

[snafu]

LET V SELL HIR DAMNED SOUL!! LET THE DEVILS SHOW THAT THEY CAN DEAL FAIRLY!! LET EVIL BE BENEFICIAL FOR ONCE IN THE ENTIRE DAMNED HISTORY OF LITERATURE!!

I don't think it would be possible to sell a damned soul. Why would the devils pay for something they're already getting for free?

Anyway, I fully expect that evil will be greatly beneficial here; it's plain enough that the devils are very eager to get V's soul and are willing to pay dearly for it. V will save her family. She will achieve ultimate arcane power. And when she dies, V will go to hell forever. A fair deal done and both sides get what they want out of it. Of course, taking the eternal perspective, V's screwed, but mortals don't often take that perspective.

edit: of course, this is a game world. Eternal perspective? 'You die and go to hell forever.' 'Oh well. *begins rolling new character*'

[Vemynal]

remember though that this is merely a world where the laws of D&D are kinda like the laws of physics.

Which is to say, in either case, bendable^^

but jokes aside is it to hard to believe that the devil's simply had an eye out for all characters over level ____ ? No one had to have informed anyone, the plot required it and dues ex machina provided.

Heck even the devils would be after Belkar- he's chaotic evil not lawful evil.

[hamishspence]

And apparently (though its rare) devils do attempt to tempt CE characters over to the side of Law- by encouraging them to behave in a very Lawful fashion.

Belkars willingness to help out a superior in the Battle for Azure City- against his own short term wishes- "to serve the Greater You" is exactly the sort of thing the devils would like to see him do more of. Helping out superiors to your own detriment, following orders from people you don't respect, are apparently very Lawful things to do.

[Gloverboy]

Crap. yeah. Ok, so V's soul is about to get mortgaged. Yay darkside.

but, can hope that the deal will be undid so we can have a neat, topical punchline about the current foreclosure crisis...

wait, foreclosure means they take the soul and run, wouldnt it?

Man, where is V's shoulder angel when you need it?

[Niesra]

All right, I REALLY did not see that one comming...
So, I bet someone already threw it in there...but if V's gonna sell her/his/its/etc soul to save her/his/its/etc family, won't V be able to gain ultimate archane power for saying "the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons"...
theories, anyone?

[hamishspence]

V's reply to the Offer- if it involves a devil appearing, to negotiate, could end with "we have a deal"

[Prak]

in game, the worst act listed is Murder For Pleasure- 7 point Corrupt act. And even that won't guarantee a place in Nine Hells- 9 Points-worth is needed for that. So a Still Good, Lawful person who has done evil (but not enough evil) has a chance of not being condemned.

And even if they have done enough evil, if the are genuinely repentant, they get a second chance, as a Hellbred (if you're using Fiendish Codex 2)

So you can have a Dark Hero who isn't condemned forever, but they do have to be repentant, rather that utterly proud of what they did and believing that the act was not evil.
by FAW(flavour as written), you're right, but I think if the alignment of the act was questionable, such as taking pleasure in killing an evil tyrant who you were tasked with removing from the throne so his people would no longer be oppressed, I think you could probably get a second chance as a hellbred there too. It's a dm's call.


on Devils as LE, they do sometimes cheat, but if soul appeals, then appeal must be heard, and if devils did not provide benefits specified in a Pact Certain, soul gets released.

Note "It is possible for a soul to be released, then condemned to Nine Hells on unrelated grounds. Much diabolical laughter then ensues"- being LE enough that they would have gone to Nine Hells even with pact discounted, is an example.
It's like any other system of law and contracts. If you get off of a murder charge, you might still get picked up on theft.

[Prak]

I don't think it would be possible to sell a damned soul. Why would the devils pay for something they're already getting for free?
So that's what I've been doing wrong... can I offer my neighbour's soul?


Anyway, I fully expect that evil will be greatly beneficial here; it's plain enough that the devils are very eager to get V's soul and are willing to pay dearly for it. V will save her family. She will achieve ultimate arcane power. And when she dies, V will go to hell forever. A fair deal done and both sides get what they want out of it. Of course, taking the eternal perspective, V's screwed, but mortals don't often take that perspective.

edit: of course, this is a game world. Eternal perspective? 'You die and go to hell forever.' 'Oh well. *begins rolling new character*'

The eternal perspective is that V's an elf, and will live a very long time, and a wizard, and could just turn hirself into a lich, or similar undead.