Should Vaarsuvius take the deal?

[Warren Dew]

Assume for the moment that soul selling is the only way of saving Vaarsuvius's kids.

Should Vaarsuvius take the deal?

[Cúchulainn]

I don't see any alternative, if he wants to save the kids that bad he has to pay the piper. It's just a soul anyway and they're stick figures so...

Oh yes, I went there.

[Balgus]

Assume for the moment that soul selling is the only way of saving Vaarsuvius's kids.

Should Vaarsuvius take the deal?
Nope. V can always find a way to get her kids back - even if it means turning him/herself into a lich and chasing the dragon into the deepest darkest corners of whatever plane it decides to go.

But selling your sould is forever!! Demons and devils are usually smart at making these kinds of deals. More so than a dragon looking for vengeance I would wager.

[Flickerdart]

I've never found Faustian bargains all that sensible. I give away something permanently for fleeting pleasure? No way. If I sell my soul in exchange for 50 years of power, it only stays with the devil in question for 50 years, after which he must return it in the same condition that he got it. That's only fair.

[Enlong]

V's going to take it. Whether V should...

V's intentions are good, but making a deal with the Devals Devils is almost never a good plan, in the long run. It may indeed give hir the power to save hir family, but I can see this turning out badly. Remember that the lower-plane overlords are looking for ways to tip the balance of good and evil in their favor, and they know about the Gates.
If they use their bargin with V to make hir harness the Gates for them, then this deal could turn hir into a dangerous enemy for the Order. And against Team Evil too, now that I think about it.

From a coldly logical standpoint, saving V's children is not worth the very real possiblity of one of the most powerful wizards in the OotSverse being used as a tool of the lower planes in their bid for power, but in this case, V can't afford to look at it logically. Hir kids are in immediate danger and there is no alternative.

[accountingninja]

V's going to take it. Whether V should...

V's intentions are good, but making a deal with the Devals Devils is almost never a good plan, in the long run. It may indeed give hir the power to save hir family, but I can see this turning out badly. Remember that the lower-plane overlords are looking for ways to tip the balance of good and evil in their favor, and they know about the Gates.
If they use their bargin with V to make hir harness the Gates for them, then this deal could turn hir into a dangerous enemy for the Order. And against Team Evil too, now that I think about it.

From a coldly logical standpoint, saving V's children is not worth the very real possiblity of one of the most powerful wizards in the OotSverse being used as a tool of the lower planes in their bid for power, but in this case, V can't afford to look at it logically. Hir kids are in immediate danger and there is no alternative.

If I were V, though, as magnificently arrogant as he is, I would believe that no one would succeed in having that sway over me. V would never think he could be used as a tool. Sure, he'd get the power and save his family, but then he'd turn the tables and become a force to be reckoned with, obliterating the evil demons who sought to enslave him and taking his place as the most powerful wizard the world has ever known!! ALL WILL BOW TO THE MIGHTY VAARSUVIUS!!

:smallredface: Ahem, sorry. Anyway, this is what V might THINK, but whether it happens that way is another story.

If the children were just going to die, V wouldn't take the deal. After all, they'd just go to the afterlife and see their Other Parent someday. But since their eternal souls are in danger, he must save them, even at the expense of his own soul.

V doesn't have much choice. :smallfrown:

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't it be just hilarious if V's kids' souls also go to the devils when he signs? Fun stuff.

[FrankNorman]

I've never found Faustian bargains all that sensible. I give away something permanently for fleeting pleasure? No way. If I sell my soul in exchange for 50 years of power, it only stays with the devil in question for 50 years, after which he must return it in the same condition that he got it. That's only fair.

But then what would be the point of it to the devil?
Think of your soul as being like a big bag of sweets. Once they take possession of it, they're going to open the bag and start eating. Since you probably can't have your "50 years of power" while they are doing this, it has to be done in turns - you get 50 years to do anything you want (they would hope it would be evil things, so your soul will taste nicer to them) then they get to claim their side of the bargain.

Of course Faustian Bargains would be insane. No sane person would ever make one. But then, a lot of people aren't sane.

[dspeyer]

Vaarsuvius almost certainly will take it, since these have got to be the "right four words for all the wrong reasons". Will it work out? I see two reasons to think so:

1) Throughout OOTS, the always evil races have been portrayed somewhat sympathetically. Why shouldn't this apply to devils? Even if they have no compassion, they are likely to exhibit rational self-interest, such as returning the soul in return for protection from the snarl.

2) Even if it isn't now, V is fated to achieve Total Ultimate Arcane Power. This should be sufficient to defeat the lower planes in combat if necessary.

[Mauve Shirt]

But does saving his kids' souls count as "all the wrong reasons"? :smallconfused:

[Elfey]

Well what did Faust sell his soul for? Ultimate Arcane Power.

V will sell V's soul easy enough to get V's family out of mortal danger. In my book it's a noble self sacrificing act. But D&D doesn't act that way.

[Aquillion]

IT'S A TRAP!

I mean, come on, you've got to get the sense that this is a bit too pat. The "this is a special offer that would usually require massive paperwork and effort that I can only offer you!" shtick is one of the oldest con-man games in the book.

[nleseul]

Just remember that when V reunites with Haley and Celia, legal aid will be available for renegotiating the terms of the contract. :smallbiggrin:

[Innis Cabal]

He will, even if he shouldn't

[Flame of Anor]

No, Vaarsuvius should not take the deal, and, yes, Vaarsuvius totally will take the deal. I think we really are coming up to the four words.

[Xyk]

But does saving his kids' souls count as "all the wrong reasons"? :smallconfused:

No, that's the only "right" reason I can think of right off the bat.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

But does saving his kids' souls count as "all the wrong reasons"? :smallconfused:

I agree with your puzzlement. Saving the eternal souls of your children can't be considered wrong in my book. :smallconfused:

However, I've got a vague fuzzy thought that the 'wrong reasons' bit isn't referring to the kids' souls at all. That the 'wrong reasons' just means something like, "you'll obtain ultimate arcane power when that's not actually what you're looking for ...." In other words, V won't get this power through the means he thought he would (questing and learning) but through a chain of accidents and sleep-deprived mistakes that drive him to this point.

Or something. Yes, I'm tired right now. :smallwink:

[Zeitgeist]

It's not the "right" reason by contrast to a better reason. The "right" reason would be to protect the world from the Xykon or better yet, the Snarl. Anything else would be the "wrong" reason, I think. Even if his intentions are good (saving his children).

[TheSummoner]

Or perhaps by the time they're ready to make the deal, it will be too late. V will know this, and will will take the deal anyways for revenge... definatly all the wrong reasons in that scenerio.

[Deckmaster]

When I read it, I thought that "I cannot fail again" were the four words. Anyone else interpret it that way?

[dragoncmd]

But does saving his kids' souls count as "all the wrong reasons"? :smallconfused:

If his family is not actually in danger, or with additional plot twists, yes it can.

[Warren Dew]

If I were V, though, as magnificently arrogant as he is, I would believe that no one would succeed in having that sway over me. V would never think he could be used as a tool. Sure, he'd get the power and save his family, but then he'd turn the tables and become a force to be reckoned with, obliterating the evil demons who sought to enslave him and taking his place as the most powerful wizard the world has ever known!! ALL WILL BOW TO THE MIGHTY VAARSUVIUS!!

I think that's a misreading of Vaarsuvius' personality. Vaarsuvius's arrogance doesn't reflect vanity; rather, it reflects a realistic assessment of abilities. Remember the pit lord: everyone on the boards was going "Vaarsuvius, don't be so arrogant, help someone else instead of going at him directly", but it turned out going after it directly rather than helping someone else was in fact the correct solution, however arrogant.

I don't think Vaarsuvius' willingness to make a deal reflects thinking that it can be reneged on later; rather, it's a simple calculation: one soul for two.


If the children were just going to die, V wouldn't take the deal. After all, they'd just go to the afterlife and see their Other Parent someday. But since their eternal souls are in danger, he must save them, even at the expense of his own soul.

V doesn't have much choice. :smallfrown:

I think that's Vaarsuvius's thinking too. It's true self sacrifice, not the false self sacrifice that planning to renege would be.


However, I've got a vague fuzzy thought that the 'wrong reasons' bit isn't referring to the kids' souls at all.

I agree: it's possible that this arc has nothing to do with the whole "ultimate arcane power" thing.

[Ron Miel]

Assume for the moment that soul selling is the only way of saving Vaarsuvius's kids.

Should Vaarsuvius take the deal?


Yes. Literature is full of tales of people who managed to get their contracts weith the devil voided. Accept the deal, save your kids, worry about the contract later. Probably Elan will save your soul.

[awibs]

He can't open it yet. Have Howie call the banker for an offer.

[thubby]

yes, assuming he isn't going to be instantly turned evil and made to go slaughtering innocence.
clearly dead means dead for the overwhelming majority of the oots world. if he wants to sacrifice his soul to save his family's from eternal imprisonment and likely torture, i say more power to him.

[LurkerInPlayground]

When I read it, I thought that "I cannot fail again" were the four words. Anyone else interpret it that way?
Disintegrate!
Disintegrate!
Disintegrate!
Disintegrate!

Of course, I'm probably wrong, but this is amusing nonetheless.

[TheBST]

No, for a few reasons:

1) Though V's faith in divinations has been shaken, unlike Humans he actually has a lifespan ong enough that searching the planes for BMD oculd work.

2) I'm pretty sure V's mate would rather go through the horror themself than see Vaarsuvius lose his/her soul forever

3) The not negligible chance that Qarr is either rainmaking V, or that

any other kind of scam is going on.

I mean, why would a black dragon be able to get hold of Soul Bind scrolls (requiring umpteen levels to use) but not a True Rez spell for her kid?

Can't guess exactly how V is being tricked here, but I'm sticking by that s/he is.

Who knows where that dragon actually went after going 'pop'..

[thubby]

I think that's a misreading of Vaarsuvius' personality. Vaarsuvius's arrogance doesn't reflect vanity; rather, it reflects a realistic assessment of abilities. Remember the pit lord: everyone on the boards was going "Vaarsuvius, don't be so arrogant, help someone else instead of going at him directly", but it turned out going after it directly rather than helping someone else was in fact the correct solution, however arrogant.

don't confuse working with being the best solution.

[Ancalagon]

The deal, of course, will involve the gates and [I]the snar[l/I], somehow. I mean, look at it: Hell would be stupid to let the issue with V slip through their fingers.

How do they know about it? At least Sabine did tell some Lords about all that, so "someone" in "some sort of Hell" knows... I exepct the price to become much higher than V anticipates...

[Ancalagon]

Disintegrate!
Disintegrate!
Disintegrate!
Disintegrate!


Cool theory. ;)

That would be a very nice outcome. "Attacking" the right being for the wrong reasons with the right (effective) words...

...but the scene did not yet happen. We were told'd we'd know if it happened.

[Aquillion]

3) The not negligible chance that Qarr is either rainmaking V, or that

any other kind of scam is going on.

I mean, why would a black dragon be able to get hold of Soul Bind scrolls (requiring umpteen levels to use) but not a True Rez spell for her kid?

Can't guess exactly how V is being tricked here, but I'm sticking by that s/he is.

Who knows where that dragon actually went after going 'pop'..My guess:
The dragon's actual revenge on V is the loss of V's soul. After spotting V, Qarr looked up any of V's old enemies, then cut a deal with them, so they could get revenge in the most permanent way possible.

[RMS Oceanic]

Wouldn't it be just hilarious if V's kids' souls also go to the devils when he signs? Fun stuff.

I don't think that could work. The important part of a Faustian deal, browsing through the Fiendish Codex II, is that any soul offered is offered freely and of the owner's consent. If a soul was surrendered through duress or deceit on part of the devil, the contract can be voided, and I think asking for somebody else to sign away ownership of your soul would not be considered valid by any stretch of the imagination.

[thubby]

I don't think that could work. The important part of a Faustian deal, browsing through the Fiendish Codex II, is that any soul offered is offered freely and of the owner's consent. If a soul was surrendered through duress or deceit on part of the devil, the contract can be voided, and I think asking for somebody else to sign away ownership of your soul would not be considered valid by any stretch of the imagination.

well, he is their parent. under just about any legal system he acts on their behalf.

[HandofShadows]

I don't think that could work. The important part of a Faustian deal, browsing through the Fiendish Codex II, is that any soul offered is offered freely and of the owner's consent. If a soul was surrendered through duress or deceit on part of the devil, the contract can be voided, and I think asking for somebody else to sign away ownership of your soul would not be considered valid by any stretch of the imagination.

Well if The Giant uses those rules (maybe, maybe not), V may have a legal "out". V at this time is NOT in vis right mind (or the left one in fact). Can insanity be pleaded to get out of this kind of contract?

[accountingninja]

I think that's a misreading of Vaarsuvius' personality. Vaarsuvius's arrogance doesn't reflect vanity; rather, it reflects a realistic assessment of abilities. Remember the pit lord: everyone on the boards was going "Vaarsuvius, don't be so arrogant, help someone else instead of going at him directly", but it turned out going after it directly rather than helping someone else was in fact the correct solution, however arrogant.

I don't think Vaarsuvius' willingness to make a deal reflects thinking that it can be reneged on later; rather, it's a simple calculation: one soul for two.



I think that's Vaarsuvius's thinking too. It's true self sacrifice, not the false self sacrifice that planning to renege would.

:smallbiggrin: I was mainly poking fun at V. But, really, I can't see someone who prizes his mental prowess like V willingly submitting to physical or mental slavery. This isn't planning to reneg in a deceitful way, but simply preserving all of his hard life's work and not becoming an instrument of evil. What's the point of having total arcane power if you aren't even of your right mind to use it?


I mean, why would a black dragon be able to get hold of Soul Bind scrolls (requiring umpteen levels to use) but not a True Rez spell for her kid?

Can't guess exactly how V is being tricked here, but I'm sticking by that s/he is.

Now, this is extremely interesting. I'm thinking this is more and more likely too. If her child were her main concern, you'd think she'd try to raise him first, THEN exact her revenge. I wonder if this is all some intricate plot to muscle V onto the Dark Side.

I do hope V's intellect doesn't fail him and he's able to suspect something is very wrong here.

[Vemynal]

yes

yes

and oh ya....

YES!!!


I'd sell my soul in a moment for my friends let alone if i had children

[Logalmier]

Should Vaarsuvius take the deal? Nope. Will he? Probably. I mean it's that or have your kids get eaten. Just the fact that she actually fully and knowingly ASKED to sell her soul shows how willing she is to do it. Most people who sell there souls don't know there being coerced into evil. They think their benefiting the most from their evil, while really it's the devils whispering in their ear who's really in charge.



I mean, why would a black dragon be able to get hold of Soul Bind scrolls (requiring umpteen levels to use) but not a True Rez spell for her kid?

Can't guess exactly how V is being tricked here, but I'm sticking by that s/he is.


The dragon is a sorceress, thus, she can use a scroll of soul bind (an arcane spell.) Unfortunate she can't cast true res, even if she did have a scroll on her. She'd need a 17th level cleric, and it's already been said before that that's unlikely to work.

[Kish]

When I read it, I thought that "I cannot fail again" were the four words. Anyone else interpret it that way?
If there were no prophecy, would you think, "Those four words are hugely important and central"?

Maybe. Or, more likely, you'd say "I think those four words show something important about Vaarsuvius' mental state." Or maybe you'd just pass over them as just a small part of Vaarsuvius' overall ranting in this one. But there is a prophecy, and so people look for four-word constructions and blow them out of proportion. Is that what you're doing? If you picked that sentence just because of the number of words, then yes it is. When the prophecy comes true no one will need to work at a way to make the words fit.

[Drakron]

I dont think you people understand what selling the soul means.

It does not mean they lose free will or the ability to control their own actions, it means when they die the soul goes right to who ever they sold to, its giving up the afterlife for some immediate result.

Devils trade in souls because they use then in many different ways, one is using then as soldiers in the Blood War.

[Tyrmatt]

I just know this is going to tie in to what Sabine told her dark masters about "tipping the balance in our favour"...

On the plus side, I may have accidentally proved Sabine is a devil there...

[Deckmaster]

If there were no prophecy, would you think, "Those four words are hugely important and central"?

Maybe. Or, more likely, you'd say "I think those four words show something important about Vaarsuvius' mental state." Or maybe you'd just pass over them as just a small part of Vaarsuvius' overall ranting in this one. But there is a prophecy, and so people look for four-word constructions and blow them out of proportion. Is that what you're doing? If you picked that sentence just because of the number of words, then yes it is. When the prophecy comes true no one will need to work at a way to make the words fit.

Well, I said that because it was a four word sentence, yes, but also because it seems to be a major part of V's current thought processes. If those aren't the four words, then they'll probably be something similiar. At least, that's what I think.

[Porthos]

3) The not negligible chance that Qarr is either rainmaking V, or that

any other kind of scam is going on.

I mean, why would a black dragon be able to get hold of Soul Bind scrolls (requiring umpteen levels to use) but not a True Rez spell for her kid?

Can't guess exactly how V is being tricked here, but I'm sticking by that s/he is.

Who knows where that dragon actually went after going 'pop'..

Now that is an interesting point.

I've thought from the second I saw strip in question that this was a snow job on the part of the ABD, and this certainly fits.

And as for Qarr saying he had no idea about the ABD.... Well, it's not inconceivable that he has a decent Bluff score, now is it?

Hmmmm....

[LuisDantas]

Considering the deal so that hir family may be protected is in no way a wrong reason, much less "all the wrong reasons". If V reacts so strongly to the dream flashbacks of hir Azure City so-called failure, he/she would not have a soul to lose if he/she did not make every available effort to protect the mate and children.

I simply can't picture V living with the knowledge that he/she failed hir own elven kids. Vaarsuvius simply lacks such capability. He/she would much rather sell hir soul thrice and then be killed in battle.

That said, I can still picture hir saying the right four words "for all the wrong reasons". After all, we did not actually read the deal yet, and it is certainly not something to trust at face value. Vaarsuvius may very well be misled into agreeing with a deal that somehow is not worth it.

[Underground]

Well what did Faust sell his soul for? Ultimate Arcane Power. Err... what ????

You are NOT talking about Goethe's Faust, right ?

Goethe's Faust was looking for a meaning in life.

[Finwe]

Or perhaps by the time they're ready to make the deal, it will be too late. V will know this, and will will take the deal anyways for revenge... definatly all the wrong reasons in that scenerio.


Even if V knows that his children have been killed by the dragon, the situation remains the same: the only way to save his children's souls is to kill the dragon, because she's bound their souls to herself.






ShouldShe'd need a 17th level cleric, and it's already been said before that that's unlikely to work.

Why is True Res unlikely to work?

[Aquillion]

Err... what ????

You are NOT talking about Goethe's Faust, right ?

Goethe's Faust was looking for a meaning in life.
One of the things that most people don't realize is that Goethe's Faust was actually a subversion of the 'traditional' Faust story. In the traditional story, Faust is a corrupt scholar who sells his soul for ultimately unimportant knowledge -- with the unsubtle moral that secular scholarship is evil and worth nothing in the end.

Goethe reverses this moral, and has Faust saved at the end by the fact that his ceaseless search for meaning and truth in life was, ultimately, a search for God even if he didn't know it, and therefore saved his soul regardless of his deal with the devil. One implication of this is that God was only using Mephistopheles as a servant to test Faust -- the deal wasn't "real", and Mephistopheles didn't have the power to collect on it, so even though Faust seemed to lose on a technicality, he ultimately passed the test by never ceasing in his search for ultimate truth until the very end of his life.

[Zevox]

Why is True Res unlikely to work?
Mainly because she can't cast it herself. Black Dragons cast as Sorcerers, and unlike some of their kin cast only as Sorcerers. They can't use Cleric spells themselves. So finding a scroll of it the way she did with Soul Bind would be useless to her - she'd need to track down a powerful enough cleric for it. And as has been pointed out in the past, there may not be any of those out there, and if there are, they're sure to be few in number. Even Redcloak can only be pegged at being level 15+ for sure, and he's the highest-level Cleric we've seen. Good luck tracking down one that's high enough level to cast the spell and willing to resurrect her kid (any Cleric powerful enough to cast the spell will also be powerful enough to resist her if he wants to).

Plus there's the fact that he can't be resurrected if he's not willing to return to life. And who knows what kind of afterlife awaits Dragons in the OotS cosmology. He may be too happy in it to want to come back.

Zevox

[Finwe]

*snip*

I'm aware of that. But Logalmier's post implied that, even should the dragon find a 17th level cleric willing to cast the spell, it wasn't likely to work.

[Aquillion]

Mainly because she can't cast it herself. Black Dragons cast as Sorcerers, and unlike some of their kin cast only as Sorcerers. They can't use Cleric spells themselves. So finding a scroll of it the way she did with Soul Bind would be useless to her - she'd need to track down a powerful enough cleric for it.Well, if she found a scroll of it, she wouldn't need a high-level cleric -- a lower-level one could use it with a suitable caster level check. But this assumes such a scroll exists, yes (although given that the dragon has claimed the ability to plane shift, you would assume that she could find one or a high-level cleric somewhere, somehow, on some plane of existence.)

[Zevox]

I'm aware of that. But Logalmier's post implied that, even should the dragon find a 17th level cleric willing to cast the spell, it wasn't likely to work.
I think you misread his post. He indicated that finding a high enough level Cleric is unlikely to work, not that the spell itself wouldn't work.

Zevox

[pendell]

Assume for the moment that soul selling is the only way of saving Vaarsuvius's kids.

Should Vaarsuvius take the deal?

No, he should not. I'm speaking more from a story perspective. These are precisely the same conditions that occurred in SOD:


Right-eye and Redcloak made a 'deal with the devil' when they recruited Xykon. Both acknowledged they were allying with an extremely evil person in the hope of achieving their ends.

Result? Right-eye died. His people were enslaved. Later, they were exterminated to the last man, woman and child except for Redcloak.

It happened a second time: Right-eye ran away from Xykon. Xykon tracked him down and threatened to kill his entire family if Right-eye didn't co-operate. Right-eye reluctantly agreed.

Result? Right-eye's family died anyway. Xykon used them as cannon fodder against parties of adventurers. He could have easily saved their lives, but deliberately stood back because watching other people die is how he gets his jollies as an undead.



It shows up in SWIII: Revenge of the Sith as well. Anakin made a deal with the Dark Side to gain the power to save his wife from death. Result? The very deal he made to save her wound up killing her.

Bottom line: In fiction, these deals never end well.

Vaarsuvius is fixated on the idea that magic is only one of two possible solutions: "More magic" is the other. And yet it could be there's another solution that doesn't involve magic at all.

I think he should do what O-chul did: He was threatened by Redcloak with the deaths of innocents, yet he squarely put responsibility back on Redcloak for the atrocity and refused to play along.

Actually, O-chul had no options, because he didn't actually know what RC wanted to know, and he couldn't lie successfully. But it was still the right thing to do, given the choice.

Mind: I would argue that there is a time and place to do the lesser evil to achieve the greater good. If that is not the case, no one could ever fight a war, which involves killing, stealing, lying, and a host of other things. But there comes a limit.

I think that V is demonstrating one end of the scale: Too much concern with expedience at the cost of principles. Celia demonstrates the other: Over-zealous following of principle at great cost to the party and to innocents.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kaytara]

Actually, O-chul had no options, because he didn't actually know what RC wanted to know, and he couldn't lie successfully. But it was still the right thing to do, given the choice.


As you said yourself, O-Chul had no options, so I don't see what "choice" you're referring to. IF O-Chul HAD in fact possessed the information and had chosen to share it, or not to, it would've been a very different matter.

V's problem, among other things, is that his chances of success diminish rapidly the longer he fumbles around being picky in what option he picks. The other problem is that he has exactly two options now: take the bargain and hope it's not too late, or not take it and live with the knowledge that he had a chance to save his family but didn't take it out of squeamishness and unwillingness to sacrifice himself for them.

I've seen people suggest that Vaarsuvius should be looking for some other option that doesn't involve selling his soul, but that's just the problem, there IS no such option. Qarr can't do anything to help, personally, and anything stronger than Qarr won't bother to pop in for anything less than a Faustian Deal.
The idea with the giant devil is a nice one, but Qarr isn't able to break the spell himself and cannot teleport V there. And then there's still the problem of getting that monster all the way to the Elven Homelands in a second. On top of that, V's running out of time.

[Warren Dew]

Okay, now that we know what the deal is, should Vaarsuvius take the deal?

Why or why not - and if your answer is different from before, why?

[Optimystik]

Rule #1 when dealing with fiends: If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

But what choice does V have?

[TheSummoner]

From V's current position, there is no reasonable alternative. He may have a choice in the matter, but it takes less sanity to let your children die suffer eternal torture than it does to make a deal with a devil (and a demon, and whatever the term for a neutral evil outsider is).

That being said, if I were the devil, demon, or third guy, I would likely use my temporary control over V to have him personally kill his own family. I'm fan of irony, and that would be a damn good way to send V down the fast track to evil.

Too good to be true indeed.

[slayerx]

When I read it, I thought that "I cannot fail again" were the four words. Anyone else interpret it that way?

The way things are going i think the four words will be "you have a deal"


Okay, now that we know what the deal is, should Vaarsuvius take the deal?

Why or why not - and if your answer is different from before, why?
Indeed, things are not as others seemed to assume as the deal does not include everlasting eternal damnation, and does seem like a much more fair deal when you consider what is at stake.

honestly, everybody thinks that all evil outsiders want is your eternal soul... people jumping to the same conclusions over... as Qarr has done, and the trio before evil outsiders work for their own benefit but this does not mean they are necessarily mean their gonna take your eternal soul to do so


That being said, if I were the devil, demon, or third guy, I would likely use my temporary control over V to have him personally kill his own family. I'm fan of irony, and that would be a damn good way to send V down the fast track to evil.
I was thinking the same thing... which is why i do hope V is smart enough to ask for the limitation of not being able to use the damnation period to kill his own family... just to avoid such ironies

[TheSummoner]

I'd extend that limitation to anything that has any direct or indirect on his family...

Afterall, him murdering everyone else they know infront of their eyes would leave them unharmed, but do a nice job of ruining things for him.

[Blue Ghost]

From a Lawful Good perspective, I would say NO. Selling your soul to a pack of fiends is never a good thing, even if they claim it's only temporary. Something will always go wrong. Vaarsuvius should handle the situation herself, even if it means losing her children. If she takes the deal, she'll most likely lose her children anyway, and lose a lot more in the process.
As to why selling her soul to help her children is the "wrong" reason, it's LOVE. Remember that the Oracle, who made the prophecy, serves Tiamat, who is LE and Baatorian.

[Hippoboy]

If I was V i'd take the deal, the amount of power means that she/he could accomplish everything in seconds. So she takes 5 minutes to (using a variety of spells) destroy the dragon, obliterate Xykon, Redcloak and the hobgoblin army, Reunite Oots and anything else I missed.

The price (if I'm correct) 15 minutes in various hells! because the deal was that she is 'theirs' for the amount of time she uses the soul splice.

[Optimystik]

If I was V i'd take the deal, the amount of power means that she/he could accomplish everything in seconds. So she takes 5 minutes to (using a variety of spells) destroy the dragon, obliterate Xykon, Redcloak and the hobgoblin army, Reunite Oots and anything else I missed.

The price (if I'm correct) 15 minutes in various hells! because the deal was that she is 'theirs' for the amount of time she uses the soul splice.

Careful - while I agree that he could probably go toe-to-toe with Xykon while piloting 3 epic casters, maintaining his concentration while doing so is another matter entirely. And once his willpower falters, super-saiyajin mode ends, perhaps even mid-cast.