V is gay? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Porthos

2009-02-14, 01:40 PM

Oh of all the epileptic trees...

Show me one clear sign of V being gay, one instance of proof. Considering you can't even prove if V is male or female, I really don't even think its possible...

Prove? I don't think many people say they have proof that V is a gay male. But here is how the theory goes...

Rich has said on at least a couple of occasions that V actually has a gender, has had it from the beginning of the strip, and that he (My supposition: probably) isn't going to change his mind on the gender.
V's mate to my eyes looks unquestionably male. The body structure alone cinches it for me. Far more definite than V, in fact. Sure some people have said "OMG!! Androgenous Elf!11!. But I tend to wonder if people would actually be saying that if we hadn't already had years of "What gender is V" threads.
Rich has had homosexual characters in the strip in at least a couple of occasions, thus the precedence is there.
V being gay would be the perfect capstone to all of the gender theorizing that's been going on for years. It's poetic, really.
So if one thinks that V is male (and a lot of people do) and one thinks that V's mate is male....

Well, it's not hard to make a working theory out of the above points, now is it? :smallsmile: Not proof, but a working theory that fits all of the (admittedly small) information we already have.

But it was the fact that V's children looked nothing like him that had a catalistic affect on a lot of Playgrounders. People took one look at V's mate, saw that he looked awfully male, saw the children looked nothing like either parent, and well, it was an obvious conclusion that one could make.

Is it the right one?

Time will tell. It usually does. :smallwink:

EDIT::: BTW. Epileptic Tree != "Theory You Don't Like" nor does it mean "Theory You Don't Think That There Is Much Evidence For". :smallbiggrin:

It's very easy to come up with the conclusion that V is gay if one presupposes that V is male (as I do). So let's not misdiagnose another grove of trees, eh? :smallamused:

Myou

2009-02-14, 01:57 PM

Excellent post Porthos, most excellent. ^^

Sunday

2009-02-14, 02:05 PM

Show me one clear sign of V being gay, one instance of proof. Considering you can't even prove if V is male or female, I really don't even think its possible...

shockingly not all gay men act like the sterotype that you probably imagin when thinking of a gay guy. not all gay men like shopping, have a lisp, brilliant hair and good hygene.

And if it's true that V is gay I'm sure it'll get the smallest of refferences in the strip, and is never reffered to again. EVER.

Optimystik

2009-02-14, 02:12 PM

Raging Gene Ray

2009-02-14, 02:13 PM

shockingly not all gay men act like the sterotype that you probably imagin when thinking of a gay guy. not all gay men like shopping, have a lisp, brilliant hair and good hygene.

...and not all men who fit the stereotype are gay. I think what TheSummoner was saying is that we need PROOF that V is gay. Not implications from stereotypes, concrete proof of sexual orientation. Which, like hir gender, isn't gonna happen.

TheSummoner

2009-02-14, 02:17 PM

Prove? I don't think many people say they have proof that V is a gay male. But here is how the theory goes...

Rich has said on at least a couple of occasions that V actually has a gender, has had it from the beginning of the strip, and that he (My supposition: probably) isn't going to change his mind on the gender.
V's mate to my eyes looks unquestionably male. The body structure alone cinches it for me. Far more definite than V, in fact. Sure some people have said "OMG!! Androgenous Elf!11!. But I tend to wonder if people would actually be saying that if we hadn't already had years of "What gender is V" threads.
Rich has had homosexual characters in the strip in at least a couple of occasions, thus the precedence is there.
V being gay would be the perfect capstone to all of the gender theorizing that's been going on for years. It's poetic, really.
So if one thinks that V is male (and a lot of people do) and one thinks that V's mate is male....

Rich having a gender in mind means nothing if we don't know which gender he has in mind.
In a race that is intentionally androgynes, does eye height mean anything?
Just because they exist doesn't mean everyone is one.
It would be ironic, that doesn't make it true. It would be just as ironic if all elves had absolutly no gender at all, but once again, doesn't make it true.
You can think anything you want, it doesn't make it true. There is no proof either way.

shockingly not all gay men act like the sterotype that you probably imagin when thinking of a gay guy. not all gay men like shopping, have a lisp, brilliant hair and good hygene.

And if it's true that V is gay I'm sure it'll get the smallest of refferences in the strip, and is never reffered to again. EVER.

Shockingly not everyone who doesn't see reason to believe V is gay is the kind of homophobic idiot who gets all of their information from pop culture portrayals of people.

I actually am fairly good friends with a gay man who acts nothing like the stereotype. I've been to his house, met his boyfriend, gone to his parties, and had a good time. My problem with the "V is gay theory" is that theres no indication of it.

However, I think its fairly safe to say that V is a man/woman/creature that reproduces asexually who is in a straight/gay/roommate type relationship with another elf man/woman/creature that reproduces asexuallly and has two male/female/asexual adopted children.

Blitzen

2009-02-14, 02:40 PM

However, I think its fairly safe to say that V is a man/woman/creature that reproduces asexually who is in a straight/gay/roommate type relationship with another elf man/woman/creature that reproduces asexuallly and has two male/female/asexual adopted children.

That would be nice, but it has been stated that the other elf is V's mate.

Charmy

2009-02-14, 02:44 PM

Rich having a gender in mind means nothing if we don't know which gender he has in mind.
In a race that is intentionally androgynes, does eye height mean anything?
It would be ironic, that doesn't make it true. It would be just as ironic if all elves had absolutly no gender at all, but once again, doesn't make it true.

Why does everyone forget Lirian? Lirian is a well-established female elf. The elves as a whole race have non-androgynous members.

At best, you can say that V could be a member of an androgynous sub-race of elves.

TheSummoner

2009-02-14, 02:47 PM

Why does everyone forget Lirian? Lirian is a well-established female elf. The elves as a whole race have non-androgynous members.

At best, you can say that V could be a member of an androgynous sub-race of elves.

Lirian was clearly female for plot reasons. She was in a relationship with Dorukon, a straight male.

Collin152

2009-02-14, 02:59 PM

Lirian was clearly female for plot reasons. She was in a relationship with Dorukon, a straight male.

So? It still shows that female elves are clearly and distinctly female.
Or haven't you noticed? Rich uses two body models for his characters for each race: a squarish, male one, and a rounder female one. V's mate, not having the excuse of long robes, clearly has the squarish male body. V, as you could see when changing into robes as the Order was in the starmetal cave, also has this model.
Lirian, however, is not in the least bit like this; she has breasts, she's an elf, and she's really very quite female.

Draw your conclusions how you will, but use logic to get there, and not logical fallacies.

Porthos

2009-02-14, 03:02 PM

Rich having a gender in mind means nothing if we don't know which gender he has in mind.

No, but it does mean that he has a gender. It is also possible that Rich has left clues. So it's fun to try to figure out whether they are there or not.

In a race that is intentionally androgynes, does eye height mean anything?

I never mentioned "eye height". Other posters have, but I haven't. Personally I think that is a silly reference to look at, which is why I didn't mention it.

No, what I was refering to the the shape of the torso, which is blocky and has only been used for male characters in the past.

Is it proof? No. But I'm not as hung up on the concept of proof as you seem to be. :smalltongue:

Just because they exist doesn't mean everyone is one.

Again, no. But it does show that Rich sees nothing wrong with including homosexual characters in the strip. Thus it opens it up as a possibility.

A possibility, nothing more. :smallsmile:

It would be ironic, that doesn't make it true. It would be just as ironic if all elves had absolutly no gender at all, but once again, doesn't make it true.
You can think anything you want, it doesn't make it true. There is no proof either way.

Oy, again with the proof. :smalltongue: Why are you so hung up on this whole "proof" thing? Part of the raison d'etre of this board is to speculate. Are some theories (Belkar = CN) absurd and unworthy of discussion? Of course. That's undenaible. But that doesn't mean that all theories are silly.

This one, at least, has a heck of a lot more going for it than the innumerable alignment debates. And I, for one, like the change of pace.:smallamused:

NB: There have been plenty of other elves in OotSverse that are unquestionably male or female. Most of the ones in SoD, for instance, come to mind.

Porthos

2009-02-14, 03:20 PM

BTW, just so you know where I am coming from:

I think V is male. I have always thought that V is male. And I have seen nothing in the comic that would disaude me from that notion.

Can I prove it?

Of course not. But I can point to evidence (both inside the strip and out - though some of the postings in question might have been deleted because of various board purges) that V is male.

Is evidence proof?

Again, of course not. :smallsmile:

But since I personally (without iron clad proof) think that V is male and I think (for reasons given above) that V's mate is male, it's not hard at all for me to make the following equation:

A) V is male (personal opinion)
B) V is married (fact)
C) V's mate is male (again personal opinion)
therefore
D) V is either gay or bi.

Again, it's really not hard to come up with this conclusion if one thinks that V is male. And one glance at this board will show that I'm not the only one who thinks, albiet without proof, that V is male. Now I will admit that there are just as many people who think V is female...

<joke>
.... But they're wrong, so I just menatlly adjust all instances where I see she/hir/etc. :smalltongue:
</joke>

Seriously though, it's why I (unless I am, no pun intended, in an impish mood) try to always write "he/him" when discussing V. I don't think he is female, and I usually don't like the whole "hir" business. So if I think V is male I will use masculine pronouns when discussing him.

And if I'm wrong and it turns out that V was female all along? Well I'll be wrong and I'll just have to live with the crushing shame of that horrible misjudgment of V.
.
.
.
.
.
You can just tell that it would keep me awake for nights, can't ya? :smalltongue:

Spiryt

2009-02-14, 03:23 PM

There it is, another gender thread!

Who would suspect. :smalltongue:

Evil DM Mark3

2009-02-14, 03:25 PM

The funny thing is, to me V looks male (and always has) and his mate looks female. I am currently working under the theory that V is infertile for some reason.

Optimystik

2009-02-14, 03:26 PM

<joke>
.... But they're wrong, so I just menatlly adjust all instances where I see she/hir/etc. :smalltongue:
</joke>

I mentally adjust all occurrences of "hir" "xe" and "zis" too, but that has more to do with my gibberish-filter being always active than anything else.

The Neoclassic

2009-02-14, 03:41 PM

V is gay is quite clearly a possibility, but it can't be "proven" any more than V or V's mate being one gender or the other can be "proven." Everyone here, I think, needs to stop saying "prove" (particularly when they bring up their own theories) because we KNOW that Rich has said he plans on keeping it unclear and there is no stated current gender for V or V's mate (meaning there is no proof to be had for anyone).

The adopted children thing supports my theory that V and his mate are both male and (therefore) gay (square corners, seriously- we've seen androgynous elves with curvy bottoms, but V's naked form with a square shape and his unarmored mate also being square rings fairly clearly male to me). However, I know other people are just as convinced of their theories, and as incorrect as I may think they are, it's no threat to me nor does it lessen my enjoyment of the comic.

Kaytara

2009-02-14, 05:47 PM

So? It still shows that female elves are clearly and distinctly female.
Or haven't you noticed? Rich uses two body models for his characters for each race: a squarish, male one, and a rounder female one. V's mate, not having the excuse of long robes, clearly has the squarish male body. V, as you could see when changing into robes as the Order was in the starmetal cave, also has this model.
Lirian, however, is not in the least bit like this; she has breasts, she's an elf, and she's really very quite female.

Draw your conclusions how you will, but use logic to get there, and not logical fallacies.

Actually, Rich uses three body models for characters of this particular race: the squarish one, the curvish one, and the not-very-curvish-but-not-quite-squarish-either like the one we see on the elf here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), not to mention nearly all elves in Start of Darkness.

But your point stands.
Nevertheless, I've noticed that when Rich tries to make characters androgynous, he doesn't always make all of their characteristics ambiguous to create that impression - rather, he sometimes balances out the feminine and masculine characteristics, instead. In the Starmetal Cave, what we see of V's body is pretty clearly squarish, but V's loose hair gives off a strongly feminine vibe, thus keeping the reader confused. Similarly, the mate also has a squarish body but a hairstyle that is much, much more common on women than men nowadays. Of course, the fact that the eyeline for elves isn't quite as high as on human males but not quite as low as on human females either helps too.
The result: When we see an elf whose body isn't clearly seen, like here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html), we don't know what the hell to think.

Gamiress

2009-02-14, 05:53 PM

As an artist whose medium is textiles, I have to shake my head and sigh when people take the lack of curves as gospel on V's sex. I work with models regularly, I was one myself very briefly, and maybe 2% of them had curves at all. (I did character modeling, I'm far too short for couture) There are a lot of girls in the world with rectangular figures.

I personally think of V as male, but the lack of curves indicates nothing. V and/or V's mate could just be DFC.

BizzaroStormy

2009-02-14, 05:53 PM

It could be that V's wife is just flat. Ever since we've seen his mate, it has become much harder to see him as a female. And due to the children, the likelyhood of them being the same sex is extremely low.

Max_Sinister

2009-02-14, 06:12 PM

Kaytara

2009-02-14, 06:18 PM

Just saw this thread and was reminded of something:

V is a powerful mage. You remember another well-known mighty mage from the fantasy genre who's also gay? I won't say who, but he starts with an A and ends with lbus Dumbledore. Who in his past was friends with the evil mage Grindelwald - before they broke and he killed him.

Truly, it is a sad day for humanity when two men sharing the same profession and sexual orientation counts as something significant. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Optimystik

2009-02-14, 06:26 PM

Truly, it is a sad day for humanity when two men sharing the same profession and sexual orientation counts as something significant. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

It is a little significant - Fantasy has very few gay main characters.

Anteros

2009-02-14, 06:57 PM

If the Giant made V's mate have enormous breasts, and a curvy body everyone would discern that V was male from it. He's gone through over 600 strips of trouble to keep it a secret, so I'm sure he didn't want to give it away so easily. That's really all there is to it.

It's not that V couldn't be gay, but there's no evidence to support that theory. We do have evidence against it though. (Children. Yes, I am aware that gay people can adopt. However, it's still more likely to find children in a family that can actually reproduce the things.)

Honestly, we have more evidence that Redcloak and Xykon are gay than we do for V.

Finwe

2009-02-14, 06:58 PM

Adoption means absolutely nothing. If they were a same sex couple, then one of them could have impregnated/been impregnated by a third party. If they aren't a same sex couple, they could still have adopted children - one might have been infertile, for example, or there could be other circumstances.

Also, the implications of V being a gay male are terrifying: did he, then, enjoy Belkar kissing him? Perhaps he wasn't able to admit it to himself, but deep, deep down, secretly enjoyed it. It is best not to ponder these thoughts.

MCerberus

2009-02-14, 07:02 PM

Also, the implications of V being a gay male are terrifying: did he, then, enjoy Belkar kissing him? Perhaps he wasn't able to admit it to himself, but deep, deep down, secretly enjoyed it. It is best not to ponder these thoughts.

Down that road lies madness unlike you've ever seen. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1968705#post1968705)

Zevox

2009-02-14, 07:12 PM

It's not that V couldn't be gay, but there's no evidence to support that theory. We do have evidence against it though. (Children. Yes, I am aware that gay people can adopt. However, it's still more likely to find children in a family that can actually reproduce the things.)
Er, but we know for a fact that V's kids are adopted. See the most recent strip. So no, that can't be considered evidence against it.

In any event, we have nothing conclusive one way or the other, so at this point everyone's opinions are equally valid. Adoption is no evidence either way, since its an option for them no matter their sexes and sexuality - we all know there are many reasons out there for heterosexual couples to adopt, since it happens in the real world. There are also ways they could have had biological children even if they're homosexual - particularly if they're lesbians, since then all it would take is V being able to cast Alter Self - so adoption wasn't even a prerequisite for them to be a homosexual couple with kids.

The fact is that V's sex and sexuality are both completely ambiguous. Personally, my impression is that V is female and her mate male, but I could easily be wrong. And odds are we'll never know for sure anyway.

Zevox

Borris

2009-02-14, 09:34 PM

I think the important part is simply that the possibility of V being gay exists. V's gender threads have made up an indecent fraction of this forum's posting ever since the Dungeon of Dorukan, and the simple mention of V having a mate had added fuel to the fire for weeks. Most readers have assumed V to be heterosexual by default, and when we finally caught a sight of V's mate, people started analyzing every element (apron, haitstyle, profession, body shape, etc.) to determine the mate's sex and thus deduce V's.

But just mentionning that the children are adopted is enough to have readers consider the possibility that V and his mate may be a same-sex couple. So instead of oscillating between the two possibilities of V being male or fenmale, those jumping on the slightest hint that may point us one way or another (even though the Giant will make sure that none of those hints is ever fully conclusive) now have to consider four different options. Is V a straight man, straight woman, a gay man, or a lesbian woman? It's probably enough to make some readers lose sleep, and perhaps drive a few more insane. And the best part is that even if V's mate were to be revealed with no possible ambiguity, we'd still be left with two equally valid possibilities.

mikeejimbo

2009-02-14, 10:51 PM

Seconded. Rich probably made them adopted to make a same sex partnership a possibility, but there are many other good reasons for adoption.

This pretty much sums up my views.

bluewind95

2009-02-14, 11:15 PM

For some reason, I don't find V being a gay male a very appealing possibility. No, not because I'm some sort of homophobe. I know gay people that I like a lot and are very nice. It's just... in V's case, the fact that he/she has such an ambiguous gender kind of kills the "impact" of it. If V were clearly male or clearly female, then I'd think it's a more appealing possibility, character-wise. But since V is so asexual that no one can even tell what gender he/she is... it really just makes it feel... I dunno, flat, I suppose. Therefore, I choose to think that both V and his/her mate are hermaphrodites. Hence why they adopted, too.

Peanuts363

2009-02-14, 11:54 PM

I suppose we are supposed to ignore the line "Mr. Elf, sir" by the imp? I know it could be sarcasm but I find it odd that no one takes it into consideration.

Lira

2009-02-15, 12:03 AM

I suppose we are supposed to ignore the line "Mr. Elf, sir" by the imp? I know it could be sarcasm but I find it odd that no one takes it into consideration.We're ignoring that line because we've read the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10).
Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?

A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception.not the actual reality of the situation.
Honestly, if V's teammates are confused about his/her gender, than why on earth would some imp be able to tell when he's only known V for a very short time?

Kaytara

2009-02-15, 12:05 AM

I suppose we are supposed to ignore the line "Mr. Elf, sir" by the imp? I know it could be sarcasm but I find it odd that no one takes it into consideration.

But why would Qarr know the truth?

The higher-ups of the deepest circle of Hell, on the other hand... :smallamused:

imp_fireball

2009-02-15, 12:09 AM

Now, what if elven genes are not passed down immediately (or rarely)?

A blond elf will often give birth to an elf of a different hair color, ie.

Genes in elves that would otherwise be major alleles are instead recessive but somehow magically preserved throughout multiple families. So kill off a bloodline, you may still see the genetic features of that bloodline prevalent in kids of two completely different families a century later, ie.

As opposed to humans, where major alleles are non-recessive and are passed down fairly directly although other genes from previous generations are prone to appear once again.

Then again V already ruined any hope of identifying this theory by stating that he had adopted his children, so meh.

Carnivorous_Bea

2009-02-15, 12:17 AM

I personally think it would have been funnier if the kids were a different color because they were 4th edition .... :smallwink:

Lunaya

2009-02-15, 02:38 AM

Bottom line: Rich has done a masterful job of revealing a lot of details about Vaarsuvius without actually answering any questions. :smallamused:

Lissou

2009-02-15, 06:58 AM

They don't look like their parents so that all genders concerned could be ambiguous, I'd say, rather than depending on one another.
We haven't seen the mate long enough for me to see them as male or female, really. I see V as male, no idea for the mate, if they show up more I might "decide" one way or the other.

Greep

2009-02-15, 08:29 AM

well in comic 365, V's first reaction to Nale's ruffled clothes is that he made out with the guard, so I guess that's another plus?

Optimystik

2009-02-15, 12:05 PM

Honestly, if V's teammates are confused about his/her gender, than why on earth would some imp be able to tell when he's only known V for a very short time?

Well, imps are telepathic. Just sayin'.

The Minx

2009-02-15, 12:13 PM

Lirian was clearly female for plot reasons. She was in a relationship with Dorukon, a straight male.

Why do people keep forgetting the two female Drow we have already seen? :smallsmile: Those were not female for plot reasons, you know. For the record, they're the ones in the restroom at Dorukans Dungeon and the evil adventuring party which attacked Mount Celestia.

Akatosh

2009-02-15, 12:30 PM

well in comic 365, V's first reaction to Nale's ruffled clothes is that he made out with the guard, so I guess that's another plus?

...because "smooch", "swack" and "hickey" noises can't be identified from a short distance away? And it's not suspicious in the slightest to respond to "Wait, what are you doing there?" with something that starts with "OH CRAP"?

And that reasoning "Suspicious noises" + "Two people alone in a dark alley" + "Ruffled Clothes And Hair" + "Nervous Reaction" => People made out can only be wishful thinking at work?
:smallconfused:

Assassin89

2009-02-15, 12:35 PM

Why do people keep forgetting the two female Drow we have already seen? :smallsmile: Those were not female for plot reasons, you know. For the record, they're the ones in the restroom at Dorukans Dungeon and the evil adventuring party which attacked Mount Celestia.

Looks like the goddess of the Drow took most of the gender defined elves, meaning that there could have been elves with a defined gender before the Elven pantheon split.

The Minx

2009-02-15, 12:39 PM

Looks like the goddess of the Drow took most of the gender defined elves, meaning that there could have been elves with a defined gender before the Elven pantheon split.

Hee hee. :smallbiggrin:

In any case, the precedent is there, and we know that not all of the gender defined ones are Drow, anyway.

The Tygre

2009-02-15, 12:45 PM

Somehow, I've always suspected it. I mean, is their any evidence to the contrary? That's a kind of munchkin way of looking at it, I know, but still. And it seems like the kind of twist Rich would throw in. We all sit around here, chewing each other out over V's probable gender, guess it, then BAM. Gay. It all makes perfect comedic sense.

afroakuma

2009-02-15, 12:48 PM

I personally think it would have been funnier if the kids were a different color because they were 4th edition .... :smallwink:

That would've been hilarious.

Kami2awa

2009-02-15, 12:48 PM

Elves actually have 26 sexes; at least one exists purely to open jars and put up shelves.

Raging Gene Ray

2009-02-15, 01:25 PM

Also, the implications of V being a gay male are terrifying: did he, then, enjoy Belkar kissing him?

:smallsigh:Yes, because gay men have no standards whatsoever, just like how straight women don't mind being kissed by anything as long as it has a Y chromosome!

Seriously, it is possible to have a compatible sexual orientation and still get squicked out when a disgusting sociopath starts slurping on your face. Imagine if Belkar pulled that on Haley...or Celia.

Okay, stop imagining, sicko.

hobbitkniver

2009-02-15, 01:26 PM

I have always assumed V is a female because long ago in strip 123, when V and Haley are talking about gems and the boys in the other room think they talking about something else, they are not confused, disgusted, or surprised in any way that V has them too. Plus, Haley uses the term "The Boys" which would imply that V is not included.

AgentPaper

2009-02-15, 01:51 PM

:smallsigh:Yes, because gay men have no standards whatsoever, just like how straight women don't mind being kissed by anything as long as it has a Y chromosome!

Seriously, it is possible to have a compatible sexual orientation and still get squicked out when a disgusting sociopath starts slurping on your face. Imagine if Belkar pulled that on Haley...or Celia.

Okay, stop imagining, sicko.

True, but the huge deal he made about it makes it far more likely. And we know Belkar is a good kisser, so if V is indeed gay or female, (personally I don't think either is true, but impossible to disprove as of now) then it's very likely that he did enjoy the kiss to his own horror, most likely purely in a physical sense, of course.

Akatosh

2009-02-15, 01:53 PM

And I have always assumed he's male because -us usually designates a noun is male... at least, in Latin. And there are some exceptions.

But anyway, can we please have another topic now? This is taking religious dimensions, and we don't seem to have any Gender Agnositics here. :smallannoyed:

On the topic: ArePartnersGay(Partner p1, Partner p2) returns NULL since we know neither p1.Gender nor p2.Gender, and trying to calculate stuff based on a NULL value is sort of like dividing infinity by zero. [/nerdiness]

hobbitkniver

2009-02-15, 01:59 PM

And I have always assumed he's male because -us usually designates a noun is male... at least, in Latin. And there are some exceptions.

In English, "us" is neuter.

vrellum

2009-02-15, 02:09 PM

hobbitkniver

2009-02-15, 02:23 PM

Why do people dislike using the word "sex"? I've noticed that almost everyone, when writing about V's sex, uses the word gender.

Sex is the word to use when discussing if something/someone is biologically male or female.

Why do you care so much about the word usage? I do not disagree about the meanings, but it seems useless to argue so...

Usage Note: Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of "masculine," "feminine," and "neuter," but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels.

Zevox

2009-02-15, 08:48 PM

Well, imps are telepathic. Just sayin'.
Er, no, they're not (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#imp-devil). Where did you get that idea?

Zevox

Yendor

2009-02-15, 08:58 PM

Er, no, they're not (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#imp-devil). Where did you get that idea?

Zevox

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), unless you want to claim Therkla is telepathic.

Optimystik

2009-02-15, 10:11 PM

Er, no, they're not (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#imp-devil). Where did you get that idea?

Zevox

Look again. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm)

Zevox

2009-02-16, 01:33 AM

Look again. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm)

Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Note that every Devil includes those traits in their entry if they have them. The Imp (along with the Chain Devil and Lemure) does not. Unless you want to claim that every Devil in the Monster Manual has those traits even if they're not in their entry - in which case the above-bolded line is meaningless and should never have been put there.

Unfortunately...

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), unless you want to claim Therkla is telepathic.
It appears the Giant made the same mistake you did. Looks like Qarr has more house-ruled Devil traits that Imps aren't supposed to have than just his Teleport SLA.

Zevox

lord_khaine

2009-02-16, 05:39 AM

It appears the Giant made the same mistake you did. Looks like Qarr has more house-ruled Devil traits that Imps aren't supposed to have than just his Teleport SLA.

Zevox

no mistakes here if its done on purpose, and you are also forgetting that there are more ways to get a telepathic bond than being a devil, for a start it can be done with arcane magic.

Rotipher

2009-02-16, 08:33 AM

In any event, we have nothing conclusive one way or the other, so at this point everyone's opinions are equally valid. Adoption is no evidence either way, since its an option for them no matter their sexes and sexuality - we all know there are many reasons out there for heterosexual couples to adopt, since it happens in the real world. There are also ways they could have had biological children even if they're homosexual - particularly if they're lesbians, since then all it would take is V being able to cast Alter Self - so adoption wasn't even a prerequisite for them to be a homosexual couple with kids.

For that matter, V referred to the children as "my adopted progeny", not "our adopted progeny". So it's also possible that they're the biological offspring of V's mate from some previous relationship, and V legally adopted them when ve and Parent got married.

Optimystik

2009-02-16, 10:15 AM

Note that every Devil includes those traits in their entry if they have them. The Imp (along with the Chain Devil and Lemure) does not. Unless you want to claim that every Devil in the Monster Manual has those traits even if they're not in their entry - in which case the above-bolded line is meaningless and should never have been put there.

That's exactly what I'm claiming, because by RAW, "noting otherwise" means they have to explicitly say the Devil in question does NOT have those abilities, just as they explicitly gave imps Fire Resistance rather than Fire Immunity.

Unfortunately...

It appears the Giant made the same mistake you did. Looks like Qarr has more house-ruled Devil traits that Imps aren't supposed to have than just his Teleport SLA.

Zevox

Just as with the Forcecage-AMF dilemma, by RAW the Giant is right. *shrug*

Qarr's psychic.

Kaytara

2009-02-16, 11:42 AM

For that matter, V referred to the children as "my adopted progeny", not "our adopted progeny". So it's also possible that they're the biological offspring of V's mate from some previous relationship, and V legally adopted them when ve and Parent got married.

Perhaps, but you usually don't say "our" unless the other person is also present. For example, "my house is on the other side of town" even if you're not the only person living there. If Vaarsuvius had said "my children" instead, I don't think anyone would take it to mean that they are just Vaarsuvius' kids and not V-Mate's.

Balgus

2009-02-16, 11:52 AM

V could be female and not wanting to go thru childbirth.

Rotipher

2009-02-16, 04:27 PM

Perhaps, but you usually don't say "our" unless the other person is also present. For example, "my house is on the other side of town" even if you're not the only person living there. If Vaarsuvius had said "my children" instead, I don't think anyone would take it to mean that they are just Vaarsuvius' kids and not V-Mate's.

True, it's by no means a certainty. I just wanted to point out yet another possibility, since people seemed to be tossing out all sorts of scenarios for the kids' origins. Plenty of stepparents IRL legally adopt the children of their spouses, so as to be acknowledged as their legal guardians in the event of the biological parent's death.

Which might, in fact, come to pass in this case if V doesn't get vir butt back to the tan house with red shutters PDQ....

hamishspence

2009-02-16, 04:42 PM

Optimystik

2009-02-16, 08:29 PM

Technically, it doesn't say "devils have these traits" it says "Baatezu have these traits"

Imps, and chain devils, do not have the Baatezu subtype. Lemures do, but are explicitly described as "mindless and cannot communicate"

Maybe Qaar is a variant imp with the baatezu type. Does the MM errata retcon Imps to have the baatezu type?

SRD says "Most devils have these traits (unless noted otherwise in a creature's entry.)" RAW does not note otherwise in the imp's entry, therefore imps can be telepathic. No houserule necessary.

LM TR

2009-02-17, 06:39 AM

Er, but we know for a fact that V's kids are adopted. See the most recent strip. So no, that can't be considered evidence against it.

In any event, we have nothing conclusive one way or the other, so at this point everyone's opinions are equally valid. Adoption is no evidence either way, since its an option for them no matter their sexes and sexuality - we all know there are many reasons out there for heterosexual couples to adopt, since it happens in the real world. There are also ways they could have had biological children even if they're homosexual - particularly if they're lesbians, since then all it would take is V being able to cast Alter Self - so adoption wasn't even a prerequisite for them to be a homosexual couple with kids.

The fact is that V's sex and sexuality are both completely ambiguous. Personally, my impression is that V is female and her mate male, but I could easily be wrong. And odds are we'll never know for sure anyway.

Zevox

I´m pretty sure I read somewhere that it doesn´t work that way, now if I only know where...:smallconfused:

hamishspence

2009-02-17, 04:57 PM

SRD might, but Monster Manual phrases it as "all baatezu have these traits"

Non-baatezu devils are rare, but they do exist. Some are explicitly called out as having telepathy (kalabons from Fiendish Codex 2, remnants of the Hag Countess) are one example. Others aren't- the Desert Devil in Sandstorm, the Imp, the Chain Devil.

Hellcats, a non-baatezu devil, are specificially called out as having "Telepathy 100 ft" in their special qualities.

So, if using the books, not the SRD, the rules appear to state that imps and chain devils lack telepathy unless shown otherwise- if it had it, then it would be in the statblock, like it is for the Hellcat.

Maybe there is errata clearing it up?

Same question might be asked of non-tann'ari demons- bebiliths explicitly have Telepathy in their statblock, but quasits don't.

Qaar is not exactly a normal imp anyway- charming powers, for example. Adding telepathy is a reasonable change to what is a non-standard creature anyway.

Optimystik

2009-02-17, 05:11 PM

I'm not disputing the existence of non-baatezu devils, merely pointing out that the RAW are ambiguous at best and can be interpreted either way. Besides which, whatever abilities regular imps may or may not have, Qarr is very clearly telepathic.

Silverraptor

2009-02-17, 05:13 PM

See?! SEE?!?! I *KNEW* this would happen when Rich put in the "adopted" people immediatly start suggesting that V's gay. I can't believe I got "corrected" on that theory on the #631 thread. Can anyone disagree with me? No really, I'm all ears on saying that I'm wrong. I've been seeing this debate crop up on threads here and there but this one is totally devote to it. I couldn't care less on whether or not V's gay. Why does it even matter?!

Go ahead. Prove me Wrong!:smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:

hamishspence

2009-02-17, 05:28 PM

I wonder what Qaar's non-standard powers are, so far?

telepathy- charm monster- others?

On V- agree- adoption is only circumstantial evidence at best of V and V's Mate being same gender.

littlequietguy

2009-02-19, 01:49 AM

I both V and V's mate have no defined gender than that wold mean they have the same gender and are gay (I like philosophy)

Sholos

2009-02-19, 04:28 PM

I both V and V's mate have no defined gender than that wold mean they have the same gender and are gay (I like philosophy)

Um, no, not really. It just means we don't know. It doesn't mean they're the same gender. Now, I guess I could see philosophy saying something idiotic like that, but philosophy isn't exactly known for making arguments that have any valid application.

Balgus

2009-02-19, 10:14 PM

I both V and V's mate have no defined gender than that wold mean they have the same gender and are gay (I like philosophy)Then you should have thought about this more.
It's not that they dont have defined gender - but you cannot perceive of their gender. It is not their responsibility to make public their gender, just because it is our cultural requirement that everyone must have be assigned a gender - either male or female. Anything not falling into those two groups makes us uncomfortable (see LGBTC)

Secondly, V is elven. Why should be push our perception of what a female is on a fictional race. IIRC - both elven males and females are slender, lithe, and dexterous. This is a byproduct of their need to survive in the woods. (BTW - I love the fact that females are just as athletic and competant as male counterparts)

Thirdly - In humans, active women usually lose their feminine physique (see professional athletes). Plus - up to a certain age in humans, it is hard to tell boys from girls apart. If we translate that to elven age, thats 100 years before men and women develop differing traits.

allenw

2009-02-20, 12:12 AM

Not proof, but I find it significant that in one of the bonus strips in War and XPs, V
is very confused as to why two female paladins making out in a restaurant on New Year's Eve is worthy of notice, or even able to *be* noticed. This indicates to me that either V is (personally or culturally) very accustomed to same-sex displays of sexual affection; or that V can't visually distinguish between human genders; or that V is just iffy on the whole concept of genders, possibly indicating that elves have none.

Note that, while Lirian appears to be definitely female, maybe that was just to please Dorukan; she is a high-level Druid after all, with unlimited at-will non-illusory Disguise Selfs from "A Thousand Faces".
As for the Drow women, well, they're Drow; strong sexual dimorphism comes with the package (so to speak). I blame Lolth. :smalltongue:

Warren Dew

2009-02-20, 12:23 AM

David Argall

2009-02-20, 12:48 AM

In 123, V seems to understand the differences between human females and males.

In 161, V is the first to notice that Haley has the hots for Elan, something Haley may not have noticed before this .

In 237, V pays no attention to Roy's sex change.

In 365, V notes both parties are male.

Accordingly, we find that V knows about males and females, but simply does not care, making her likely bi-sexual, and his sex and Parent's a 50-50 bet.

TheSummoner

2009-02-20, 02:39 AM

Or perhaps that V simply isn't interested in anything sexual... would fit the whole adopting kids thing even though theres a 50/50 chance of being able to concieve them naturally.

Faramir

2009-02-20, 09:24 PM

Oh of all the epileptic trees...

Show me one clear sign of V being gay, one instance of proof. Considering you can't even prove if V is male or female, I really don't even think its possible...

Also, my aunt and uncle adopted a little girl! Adoption =/= Gay.

Well, there's always
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html

But yes, as most people have said, the kids are adopted just to make any guesses as to the male/female thing even more lacking in evidence.

Drestlin

2009-02-20, 10:12 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bodyshapes.svg

A study of over 6,000 women carried out by researchers at the North Carolina State University around 2005 found that 46% were Banana (rectangular), just over 20% Pear, just under 14% Apple, and 8% Hourglass.
(from wikipedia)

bye bye gender identification by torso :wink:

Sholos

2009-02-20, 10:22 PM

Well, there's always
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html

But yes, as most people have said, the kids are adopted just to make any guesses as to the male/female thing even more lacking in evidence.

How exactly does that prove V is gay?

TheSummoner

2009-02-20, 11:13 PM

If anything, it implies that ALL elves appreciate the work of Judy Garland...

Of course, these forums are known for grabbing at nothing and planting their epileptic trees...

Assassin89

2009-02-20, 11:47 PM

Appreciating the works of Judy Garland does not always mean being homosexual. In fact, one valid reason for appreciating the works of Judy Garland is that she is an excellent actress.
Why are we assuming that elves do not like musicals? For all we know V could be an aficionado of musicals.

ThunderMonkey

2009-02-22, 11:55 AM

V is a straight guy. I don't remember where, but V has hinted that he's a guy several times. And his mate looks more female than androgenous.

Lira

2009-02-22, 12:09 PM

V is a straight guy. I don't remember where, but V has hinted that he's a guy several times.Nope.
And his mate looks more female than androgenous.There are many people (including myself) who think that V's mate looks more male than female.

David Argall

2009-02-22, 07:04 PM

V is a straight guy. I don't remember where, but V has hinted that he's a guy several times.
That is correct. She has hinted several times she is male. Unfortunately, he has also hinted several times he is female.

The Minx

2009-02-22, 07:52 PM

V is a straight guy. I don't remember where, but V has hinted that he's a guy several times. And his mate looks more female than androgenous.

The reasons listed for that are usually the ponytail and the apron, which don't really say anything. The body type is certainly similar to confirmed males, as opposed to confirmed females. Are there any other reasons to think he looks female?

TheSummoner

2009-02-22, 10:21 PM

The fact that for a character who is intentionally designed so you can't tell their gender simply by looking at them, such visual cues are meaningless has always worked for me.

The Minx

2009-02-22, 10:35 PM

The fact that for a character who is intentionally designed so you can't tell their gender simply by looking at them, such visual cues are meaningless has always worked for me.

That's not a reason to think it is a female, unless you've already made up your mind. :smallsmile:

Looking at the character, what is it about the design that suggests that it is female? Perhaps ambiguity is in the eye of the beholder, but to me that character isn't really androgynous at all.

moxproxy

2009-02-22, 10:36 PM

The fact that for a character who is intentionally designed so you can't tell their gender simply by looking at them, such visual cues are meaningless has always worked for me.

True dat, This, QFT, etc...

Telling genders apart by bodyshape in a stick figure comic is in itself rather an act of futility, particularly when absolutely no certain parameters have been outlined by the author at any given time during the comic's existence. (Yes, some males are a bit more square-shaped than some females. Some, not all. Hence, this fact can't be used to prove anyone's gender.)

Optimystik

2009-02-22, 10:42 PM

The fact that for a character who is intentionally designed so you can't tell their gender simply by looking at them, such visual cues are meaningless has always worked for me.

Which raises the question: are all ambiguous elves intended to be that way, or just Vaarsuvius? Does the "square is male" convention fail for all elves, or just him (and his mate?)

One thing we do know for sure - they both have square bodies. Whether that means anything or not, or even whether it will stay that way or not is up to Rich, but it's there.

Darklord Bright

2009-02-22, 10:45 PM

Clearly V and his mate are gay, and their children are adopted, hence why they have a darker skin tone than both of them.

/notsureifserious

TheSummoner

2009-02-22, 10:58 PM

Which raises the question: are all ambiguous elves intended to be that way, or just Vaarsuvius? Does the "square is male" convention fail for all elves, or just him (and his mate?)

One thing we do know for sure - they both have square bodies. Whether that means anything or not, or even whether it will stay that way or not is up to Rich, but it's there.

I haven't read the prequel books, but from what I've heard, there are elves that have clearly defined genders. If thats true, then its possible V (and by extension, V's mate) are the only ones who are meant to confuse us...

The main point is that if V's mate was clearly male, the vast majority of people would believe it a confirmation of V being female and if V's mate was clearly female, most would believe it meant V is male. I'm sure there would still be people popping up to claim V is gay, but in such a scenerio, the possibility would seem even more ridiculous.

Optimystik

2009-02-23, 02:52 AM

The main point is that if V's mate was clearly male, the vast majority of people would believe it a confirmation of V being female and if V's mate was clearly female, most would believe it meant V is male. I'm sure there would still be people popping up to claim V is gay, but in such a scenerio, the possibility would seem even more ridiculous.

I tend to be innately wary any time I hear claims of what the "vast majority of people" would or wouldn't believe. This is 2009; the idea of a gay male protagonist isn't nearly as outlandish as it was a mere couple of decades ago. Certainly it isn't enough of a stretch that the possibility can be considered "ridiculous."

Just to clarify my point, I know you aren't being discriminatory in any way; you just sound dismissive, as though the odds of V being gay aren't realistic enough to be an issue. If I'm wrong please correct me; but if I'm right, what makes you think that?

tis_tom

2009-02-24, 05:38 AM

Personally I'd find it refreshing if V turned out to be gay!

I think all too often any gay characters that do make it into any form of media are either far too stereotypical, or some whose sexuality is the main thing that defines them. It would be nice to have a homosexual character whose sexuality is just incidental to their character, and nothing more. :smallsmile:

TheSummoner

2009-02-24, 08:37 AM

I tend to be innately wary any time I hear claims of what the "vast majority of people" would or wouldn't believe. This is 2009; the idea of a gay male protagonist isn't nearly as outlandish as it was a mere couple of decades ago. Certainly it isn't enough of a stretch that the possibility can be considered "ridiculous."

Just to clarify my point, I know you aren't being discriminatory in any way; you just sound dismissive, as though the odds of V being gay aren't realistic enough to be an issue. If I'm wrong please correct me; but if I'm right, what makes you think that?

Oh, it isn't outlandish at all, but considering we don't even know if V is male or female, it is ridiculous to make assumptions about V's sexuality.

I am dismissive, simply because theres no indication of it.

Zolem

2009-02-24, 08:48 AM

That would be nice, but it has been stated that the other elf is V's mate.

....that doesn't mean you've had sex and had kids. It's a very impersonal way of indicating an intimate relatonship with sombody.

On that note, it has been stated that V and Baker Elf are married, so not useing husband and wife indicates that either Rich is going way out of hsi way to obscure Vs gender, or the elven language evolved along with their marriage laws to acomidate gay people....although I personaly think V is female and she's just flat.

TheSummoner

2009-02-24, 08:54 AM

Marduk Prophet

2009-02-24, 08:56 AM

TheSummoner

2009-02-24, 08:58 AM

Because robes are quite comfortable, duh.

Marduk Prophet

2009-02-24, 09:01 AM

Ah, but an individual so obsessed with power would not necessarily mind looking drab. V, however completely defies this concept. Robes can be comfortable while not being luxurious.

/fuelingthefire

Aris Katsaris

2009-02-24, 09:17 AM

What do you think is more likely?

A) Rich is avoiding the term "husband and wife" to accomidate a long running joke.

or

B) A character who has shown absolutly no sexual interest of any kind is gay.

Your argument B is weird to me. An individual who's secretive about his/her gender would just as probably be secretive about their sexuality as well. And if their sexuality went against societal taboos, they'd be even less likely to show public sexual interest of any kind.

And V has shown absolutely no interest in GENDER, has even refused to acknowledge it as remotely significant. As such, I'd give more than even odds that V's fanatically bisexual.

I feel that both heterosexuality and homosexuality would merely seem forms of illogical discrimination to V -- bigotry at worst, a mere weird selectiveness at best (e.g. like most people would view men that only ever date brunettes and wouldn't even consider dating blonds or redheads)

Eleutherius

2009-02-24, 06:28 PM

I do not think that V is homosexual. I think it is likely that (s)he is bisexual as gender seems to have no significance to V whatsoever.

In strip 237 V does not seem to realise that Roy has changed gender.
In strip 365 when V catches Nale (as Elan) and Sabine (as a male) in the ally V's only thought is that Haley would be upset is the caught Elan with someone else (ala Samantha).

V does possess a deep understanding of love and relationships which (s)he demonstrates servile times. It is my OPINION that the gender of V's mate did not affect their decision to be together.

Raging Gene Ray

2009-02-24, 11:26 PM

:vaarsuvius: That is NOT true! I am NOT gay! I have a calendar with pictures of naked members of the opposite sex...uh...at my home!

Rotipher

2009-02-25, 01:11 PM

On that note, it has been stated that V and Baker Elf are married, so not useing husband and wife indicates that either Rich is going way out of hsi way to obscure Vs gender, or the elven language evolved along with their marriage laws to acomidate gay people....

Or that it evolved with an absence of gender distinctions, which is entirely in keeping with the sexism-free way that non-drow elves are often depicted in fantasy settings. IOW, elves actually started out with gender-neutral terms like "waitron", "flight attendant", and "mate", and only discovered that words like "husband" or "stewardess" also had their uses when they encountered less egalitarian races.

Kaytara

2009-02-25, 02:09 PM

Or that it evolved with an absence of gender distinctions, which is entirely in keeping with the sexism-free way that non-drow elves are often depicted in fantasy settings. IOW, elves actually started out with gender-neutral terms like "waitron", "flight attendant", and "mate", and only discovered that words like "husband" or "stewardess" also had their uses when they encountered less egalitarian races.

That's my view of it, as well. Why should a culture of people who live for centuries and don't care much about reproduction about 99.9999% of the time place any great weight on gender? It'd be like having separate words for a blond lawyer and a dark-haired one. The way hair colour is irrelevant to the identity of the lawyer, gender is almost completely irrelevant to the identity of an elf.

Optimystik

2009-02-25, 02:12 PM

What do you think is more likely?

A) Rich is avoiding the term "husband and wife" to accomidate a long running joke.

or

B) A character who has shown absolutly no sexual interest of any kind is gay.

Sexual interest in who, exactly? V is happily married with a spouse at home, do you expect him to be drooling over everyone in the local tavern?

Balgus

2009-02-25, 05:11 PM

What do you think is more likely?

A) Rich is avoiding the term "husband and wife" to accomidate a long running joke.
or
B) A character who has shown absolutly no sexual interest of any kind is gay.I'm tending to think A.
I dont think V has any validity in this comic. V has shown some interest.. in Belkar in the New Years strip where he kisses V. I thought there was some sexual tension there because V actually likes Belkar, but does not know how to express it, so does so violently - as did Belkar which reminds me of third graders trying to hide their like for each other.

Xondoure

2009-02-25, 05:37 PM

If V is male, then why does he/she sleep in the same inn room with the female
characters?
If V is female then why did the other characters speculate that they had always suspected... something when questioning if V had seen Elan naked.
the loop is endless. I however think that whether or not V is male or female.. V is most likely gay because it fits the pieces perfectly. It is also much more humorous that way because it adds to the whole gender controversy.

krossbow

2009-02-25, 08:54 PM

V can't be gay. If V was gay, then He wouldn't be covering up his eyes in his panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) in a clearly unhappy manner.

Mr. Pin

2009-02-25, 09:20 PM

I'm tending to think A.
I dont think V has any validity in this comic. V has shown some interest.. in Belkar in the New Years strip where he kisses V. I thought there was some sexual tension there because V actually likes Belkar, but does not know how to express it, so does so violently - as did Belkar which reminds me of third graders trying to hide their like for each other.

NO.

why mommy why why why why why

:smalleek:

The Minx

2009-02-25, 09:28 PM

V can't be gay. If V was gay, then He wouldn't be covering up his eyes in his panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) in a clearly unhappy manner.

Point, but that could be just the identity of the person in question. Just having an interest in guys doesn't mean that anyone goes. :smallsmile:

Raging Gene Ray

2009-02-25, 09:29 PM

V can't be gay. If V was gay, then He wouldn't be covering up his eyes in his panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) in a clearly unhappy manner.

And Roy isn't. Are you saying something about Roy? Neither is Durkon...

V has shown some interest.. in Belkar in the New Years strip where he kisses V. I thought there was some sexual tension there because V actually likes Belkar, but does not know how to express it, so does so violently - as did Belkar which reminds me of third graders trying to hide their like for each other.

That means nothing. Whether V is gay or straight, male or female (and Rich has set it up so shi can be any combination of those), shi can still be skeezed out by the idea of Belkar hitting on hir, trying to cop a feel in melee combat, or sneaking up while shi's trancing and giving hir something besides bee stings.

Just having an interest in guys doesn't mean that anyone goes. :smallsmile:

QFT.

Trying to blow Belkar away from hir with Explosive Runes WASN'T a way of "confusedly expressing hir feelings of love." It was just what it looked like: a loud and clear "stay the hell away from me!"