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DragonKnight
2009-02-14, 05:57 PM
Before I begin, gonna state that this character isn't made to be a powerhouse or to be optimized. It's purely for fun.

The ninja class, I rolled one up recently, and I see the problem with sudden strike differing from sneak attack is that it does not work with flanking, only if your opponent is flat-footed.

I've looked through several source books and I know I've read it but can't remember where, but I believe there is either a feat or ability that you can force an opponent to be flat-footed? I could be wrong and am simply making an assumption, but anyone that could help me out, it would be greatly appreciated.

Can use any book, pdf is sufficient with this DM.

Maxymiuk
2009-02-14, 06:02 PM
You want Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint). Alternately, the Ninja's Shadow Step (I think that's what it's called - don't have the book with me) grants you temporary invisibility, which means that opponents are treated as flatfooted against your attacks.

DragonKnight
2009-02-14, 06:03 PM
Of all the things to overlook. Thanks :)

monty
2009-02-14, 06:30 PM
Feinting isn't that good, to be honest. It takes two rounds for a single attack (well, you could get a full attack in the second round, but only one attack benefits from feinting), unless you have Improved Feint, in which case you can still only get off one attack in the round. You're better off trying to be invisible, or dip swordsage, or something like that, than investing in feint.

BRC
2009-02-14, 06:55 PM
Really, the Feinting Mechanic in 3.5 is ridiculously stupid. You should be able to Feint as a normal attack (Because in real life, that's how Feinting works), for example, as a full attack, you feint with your first attack, and you use your other ones normally.

Animefunkmaster
2009-02-14, 07:04 PM
What you want is the Feat: Neraph's Charge, planarhandbook. Auto Flat Foots on a charge, find a way to pounce (Pro tip: Lion spiritual totem (+UA Variant) barbarian 1 for pounce and favored enemy over rage) and your in business.

Also, the ninja's Ki powers can turn you invisible which makes enemies flat footed.

Draz74
2009-02-14, 07:21 PM
Needs to be nitpicked ...

Technically, "Flat-footed" and "denied Dex bonus to AC" are two very separate things. In this thread, most of the places anyone as mentioned "flat-footed," they actually should have said "denied Dex bonus to AC."

If you have Uncanny Dodge, you can be flat-footed and still have your Dex bonus to AC.

If you get feinted or your attacker is invisible, you aren't flat-footed. Fortunately for the Ninja, Sudden Strike likewise has nothing to do (directly) with flat-footed opponents. Dex to AC is all it cares about.

AslanCross
2009-02-14, 09:05 PM
Dragon Magazine released some "Jutsu Feats" that give you other applications of your ki pool. One of these was the Shadow Puppet Jutsu, which makes your opponent flat-footed on a failed Will save. Just ask your DM if he could houserule away the retarded requirement for Jutsu Feats to have both hands free for you to use them (which smacks too much of Naruto's complex hand gestures to me). You can find them on the feat index on Crystalkeep.

The Swordsage class from ToB (if you take the Shadow Hand discipline) gets some maneuvers that might be more reliable sources of Dex-denial. Shadow Garrote deals +5d6 damage as a ranged touch attack, and makes the target flat-footed on a failed Fort save. There's also some higher level maneuvers that consider the target automatically flat-footed against the attack (Ghost Blade, for example). Finally, Assassin's Stance gives you +2d6 Sneak Attack, which will stack with your Sudden Strike for extra gut-shanking power.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-14, 09:18 PM
Get ranks in UMD and a Wand of Grease, or get an arcane spellcaster in the party to cast it, or get Leadership for a cohort who can cast it. Anyone standing on the spell's effect who has less than 5 ranks in Balance is considered flat-footed, according to the Balance skill and the FAQ.

Swooper
2009-02-14, 09:39 PM
The fifth level of Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior lets you feint as a free action. Maybe not what you're looking for, but there it is anyway.

RTGoodman
2009-02-14, 09:53 PM
The fifth level of Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior lets you feint as a free action. Maybe not what you're looking for, but there it is anyway.


IIRC, the errata changed it to either a swift action or a free action once per round. Either way, it sucks.

Sendal
2009-02-14, 10:14 PM
Master thrower gets a trick where if you can roll higher sleight of hand than they can spot they are denied dex to your next attack (move action). If you max out your skill and have a nice sleightly magic glove it is more reliable than giving your oponent a save.

one attack per round, my ninja uses it as a backup when low on Ki (or on those damn true-seeing monsters) I find its better to hit once for d4+5d6 than to hit 3 times (at diminishing attack bonus) for d4 each.

Invisibility is the way to go, or better yet get to level 10 and pick up a ghost touch weapon. Remember: it works in reverse.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-14, 10:34 PM
The Flick of the Wrist feat allows you to attack a foe flat-footed once per encounter.

There's also the Hide skill, which allows you to force foes into flat-footedness on attacks. Darkstalker would help with this, since it denies foes the usage of blindsight, blindsense, etc.

UserClone
2009-02-14, 10:38 PM
Don't overlook armor lock, a level one spell that reduces the enemy's speed to ten feet and also denies him his dex bonus to AC, provided he is wearing some type of armor. Worth wanding, IMO.

Darrin
2009-02-15, 12:19 AM
I've looked through several source books and I know I've read it but can't remember where, but I believe there is either a feat or ability that you can force an opponent to be flat-footed? I could be wrong and am simply making an assumption, but anyone that could help me out, it would be greatly appreciated.


1) Confound the Big Folk feat (Races of the Wild). Requires Underfoot Combat and may not be all that easy to use... it only works on creatures two size categories or larger, so some ability to reduce your size may help. Allows you to enter the square of a larger creature without an AoO, and treats the opponent as flat-footed against any attack you make. You'll want to look up "I May Be Small, But You're Dead - The Other Killer Gnome" build:

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-793912

2) Spellcaster dip or UMD + wand of grease. Cast under an opponent, they need to make a Balance check DC 15 and may fall down. Even if they make the check, unless they have 5 ranks of Balance (most monsters/NPCs don't), they are treated as flat-footed until they can move to better footing. If divine spellcasting is more your thing, the Ice Slick spell (Frostburn) works almost the same way for clerics.

3) Marbles (Arms & Equipment Guide, p. 24). Works just like a grease spell, but is non-magical and only costs 2 SP. They are spread into a square like caltrops, which is normally a standard action, but if you have someone else to spread them, such as...

4) Unseen Servant, Wood Wose, Familar, Animal Companion, Wild Cohort, or a little gold + Handle Animal skill. A familiar should be smart enough to spread marbles on its own. Directing a spell such as Unseen Servant is usually a move action. A monkey, baboon, or ape could be trained to spread marbles as a trick. Ordering an animal to do a trick is normally a move action, which leaves you a standard action to attack. If you are a ranger, druid, or Silverwood Outrider, getting your animal companion to perform a trick is a free action, freeing you up for a full attack. Details on the Wild Cohort feat or the Silverwood Outrider can be found on the WotC website:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031202a

5) Grapple. A grappled opponent loses his Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler. If you can't convince one of your fellow PCs to grapple, you can risk your familiar, order a summoned creature, or train an animal companion/wild cohort with the Pin trick (Handle Animal, DC 15). Details on the Pin trick:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a

If you don't want to risk your animal companion, just buy a bunch of mules. Very cheap (8 GP), large size, and they have a +9 grapple check. Use Handle Animal to train them the Pin trick, or hire an animal trainer to do it for you.

6) Blindness. Glitterdust is an old favorite, but there's a 2nd level Druid spell in the Spell Compendium, Blinding Spittle, that is pure evil: ranged touch attack (-4 penalty, but still rediculously easy), target is blind until they can spend a standard action to wash their eyes out with fluid. If UMD or spellcaster levels can't help you out here, there may be some alchemical items that could blind opponents.

Another problem you may run into is constructs, elementals, plants, oozes, and undead are immune to Sudden Strike damage. While Rogues have an ACF in Dungeonscape to get around this, ninjas don't have this option. However, you can pick up Dragontouched and Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic) to convert your Sudden Strike dice into fire damage, which should work against these creatures if you can find a way to deny their Dex bonus with one of these methods.

Grommen
2009-02-15, 12:34 AM
Why not just treat the Ninja ability as the same thing as a sneak attack? I had always assumed it was meant to work the same way just with a more ninja name? why invent another mechanic and have new feats to go with it, just to achieve almost the same thing?

Then again I'm not a game maker trying to hock another book in an open game system with enough books to add a wing to the Library of Congress.

O and I believe that everyone starts combat Flat-Footed until their first action. So I would make sure that my little Ninja goes first all the time. Strike first, drop a little smoke power to hide behind, then jump out from Nowhere and hit someone else.

KillianHawkeye
2009-02-15, 08:48 AM
Why not just treat the Ninja ability as the same thing as a sneak attack? I had always assumed it was meant to work the same way just with a more ninja name? why invent another mechanic and have new feats to go with it, just to achieve almost the same thing?

Sorry, but Sudden Strike isn't the same as Sneak Attack. That is to say, it basically is the same, only it doesn't work when you're flanking.

Anyway, there's a couple skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel that will make your opponent flat-footed. I forget the names, but one of them lets you tumble through someone's space to make them flat-footed, and the other one lets you draw a concealed weapon to make them flat-footed (requires Quick Draw). Note that skill tricks can only be used once per encounter.

UserClone
2009-02-15, 09:21 AM
Actually, according to my copy of Complete Adventurer, Sudden Strike is treated as SA for purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and similar options that require a minimum number of sneak attack extra damage dice. Sudden Strike qualifies you for Arcane Trickster, for example, provided you meet the non-SA requirements.

The only applicable difference is that you don't get your SS dice when you are flanking (unless they are also denied their dex bonus). Heck, the two types of bonus damage even stack, as long as both would otherwise be applicable.

EDIT: Not that anyone has tried to refute this, just thought I would help to clarify for anyone unsure.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-15, 09:31 AM
Auto Flat Foots on a charge, find a way to pounce (Pro tip: Lion spiritual totem (+UA Variant) barbarian 1 for pounce Wrong source. You're thinking of the variant in Complete Champion. The Unearthed Arcana Variant Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#lionTotemClassFeatures ) gets Run as a 1st-level bonus feat, not pounce.

RTGoodman
2009-02-15, 12:56 PM
Wrong source. You're thinking of the variant in Complete Champion. The Unearthed Arcana Variant Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#lionTotemClassFeatures ) gets Run as a 1st-level bonus feat, not pounce.

I think he mentioned the UA variant as the way to get Favored Enemy instead of Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian).

Darrin
2009-02-15, 07:27 PM
Why not just treat the Ninja ability as the same thing as a sneak attack? I had always assumed it was meant to work the same way just with a more ninja name? why invent another mechanic and have new feats to go with it, just to achieve almost the same thing?


Mostly it's a fluff thing. Ninjas were intended to be solitary hunters, stalking a single target on their own, using cover/concealment/hiding, and then attacking from surprise. Having them rely on an ally to provide flanking didn't fit the designers' concept of a ninja. (Apparently they learned nothing... NOTHING! from all those Ninja movies in the 80's, where ninjas attack in groups. Oh wait, then again... why did all those groups of ninjas attack one at a time?)

Mechanically, it works out to be something of a mess... if the ninja is being played the way he was designed and using his abilities correctly, then he's most likely off somewhere else, quietly stalking a target, waiting for the right moment to pounce... completely useless to the party and the party can't help him either. The ninja might as well be playing a solo game in a completely different campaign. In some ways, this makes the ninja even more problematic than the monk... not only is he completely useless, but he isn't even around to carry the party's stuff!



O and I believe that everyone starts combat Flat-Footed until their first action. So I would make sure that my little Ninja goes first all the time. Strike first, drop a little smoke power to hide behind, then jump out from Nowhere and hit someone else.

All fine and admirable, and possibly a lot of fun in the hands of the right player... on the other hand, how are the other players supposed to feel when your character is only useful maybe once every 2 or 3 rounds, as opposed to a character than can do something useful every round?

Keld Denar
2009-02-15, 08:25 PM
Obviously you have never heard of the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu. The amount of awesome in any given area at any given time is finite. Thus, when you see many ninjas together, individually, they are very weak and easily trounced by heroes or villians respectively. Its that lone ninja that you see (or dont' see) that is most likely to introduce you first hand to your spleen.

monty
2009-02-15, 11:38 PM
IIRC, the errata changed it to either a swift action or a free action once per round. Either way, it sucks.

I thought the old way was better. It's just fun to be able to take 20 bluff on every attack.