Magic Items in OOTS

[Number 6]

I wasn't sure if this post should go here or under Role Playing; I decided on here, but my apologies if you disagree.

I've always been one of those DMs who doesn't think that a campaign should be full of magic items i.e. a campaign should not be Monty Haul. I was rather put out by TSR's published modules that let players find magic items under every bush. (exageration)

I'm gratified that the game guru and author of OOTS agrees with me. The OOTS has some decent magic items, but not the 10-20 that most 13th charachters I've seen have. They mostly use scrolls and potions. (Unless he does it because it simplifies the plot, not because he runs his campaign that way.)

My List:
Roy gained a +5 sword but had to go on a quest to get it
Haley has 7-8 Bags of Holding
Belkar has Ring of Jumping +20
Roy has/had a Bag of Wonder
Elan has Boots of Stealth
Elan has a magical rapier

Did I miss any?

And, before anyone argues "but they may have a lot of items that haven't been named," the performance of their weapons against Sabine and the MITD and some comments like Durkon's armor tag indicate that they are not magical.

[hamishspence]

Haley "That was a +3 bow!" when it was sundered by Crystal.

V "the Ring of Wizardry pried of Xykon's charred finger-bone"

[Adeptus]

Linear Guild seemed to have +3 weapons (as the police CSI found out). I suspect the OotS mostly have stuff like that too.

[Wraithfighter]

For the most part, basic magical weapons and armor (+1-2 or so) are probably thought of by the party as "Duh, of course you'd have that!"

Everyone's probably got simple enchantments on some of their gear, especially the melee types. It's just the +5 sword and Haley's +5 Icy Burst Bow are REALLY powerful, and thus have a story behind them.

(#615 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html) for the bow)

Remember, that in #607 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html) Haley's bow gets broken, and she says that it was a +3 bow. Don't assume that because it's never been mentioned before, their items aren't magic. They ARE adventurers. This stuff is just what they need to work.

[Assassin89]

Elan does not have Boots of Stealth. They are the Boots of Elvenkind.
Roy has a Bag of Tricks, not a Bag of Wonder.
/end nitpick
130 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) gives a list of six magic items the order has.

Ring of Wizardry
Bag of Holding
Bag of Tricks
Boots of Elvenkind
Amulet of Natural Armor
Ring of Jumping +20

[Zerg Cookie]

There are 6 magical items in #130 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)
Other than that, Roy has a +5 greatsword. Haley has a +5 longbow. Elan has a +3 rapier.
I guess Belkar's daggers are magical too.

Edit: I was ninja'd

[Ancalagon]

Elan also has a +3 rapier (he's talking about how he got two new rapiers in Azure City).

So you can assume they have all the "normal adventurer-eq" that chars of their level should have.

Roy had only so few potions because the plot required him to have only one (which is a joke for an adventurer of his level).

[Morty]

Based on Oracle's remark in #572, we can suspect that Belkar's daggers are magical.

[Number 6]

I guess Belkar's daggers are magical too.

Edit: I was ninja'd

I was assuming not, because he did squat against the MITD. Unless MITD has resistance so good that you need a +4 weapon.

If Haley had a +3 bow, why did she have to use cold iron or silver to hurt Sabine? I read a rule that magic bows hit as magical weapons even if firing normal arrows. Did they change that in 3.5?

[Wraithfighter]

If Haley had a +3 bow, why did she have to use cold iron or silver to hurt Sabine? I read a rule that magic bows hit as magical weapons even if firing normal arrows. Did they change that in 3.5?

Rule of Funny, Ret-Con, maybe.

Or maybe Haley got a new bow at one point.

Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

EDIT: Ah, looked it up.

If a monster has x/Silver or x/Cold Iron damage reduction, then it takes a silver or cold iron weapon to overcome the DR. Magic weapons only overcome DR if the monster has x/magic damage resistance.

Haley shoots Sabine with normal arrows, rolls a one on the damage for both attacks. With the plus 3 bonus, that's still only 4 damage, which gets absorbed by a 5/Something DR easily.

[Tar Palantir]

Not all DR is bypassed by magic. Many devils and demons have DR/good or silver/cold iron, and higher power ones have DR/good AND cold iron/silver. MitD could just have DR/-, with no bypass at all (like barbarians and mummies).

[hamishspence]

yes- in 3.0 DR/Silver (the only metal listed) was overridden by magic weapons- a +1 sword could be used on a werewolf to full capacity.

in 3.5, DR/+1 and up, was replaced withg DR/magic and DR/epic (+6 or higher weapon) And, material-based Damage Reduction was made slightly more powerful- you must have the material and cannot override it.

A +6 sword vs DR/Silver helps not at all- to break the DR, you need the material.

so, magic arrows would not help much against Sabine or Qaar.

[Zevox]

The Class Levels and Geekery thread has pegged V as having a Headband of Intellect +4 or better, since she needs an int score 4 higher than her base to cast as many 6th and 7th level spells as she did during recent events and yet to not be high enough level to cast 8th level spells.

Anyway, why the problem with magic items? The Order is a bunch of high-level adventurers. Once you get into the double-digit levels, characters really need to have a fair amount of magic equipment. Mundane stuff just doesn't cut against the kind of challenges they have to face anymore. Sure as hell enchanted weapons and armor are a bare minimum must-have - without them your AC and attack bonuses won't be able to keep up with your enemies'. Not to mention if you don't have magic weapons, DR/magic is going to be a big problem for you.


I was assuming not, because he did squat against the MITD. Unless MITD has resistance so good that you need a +4 weapon.
In 3.5 there is no differentiation between the amount of magical enhancement needed to bypass DR for the most part. There is only DR/magic (any enhancement bypasses it) and DR/epic (+6 or higher needed to bypass it). I'd be willing to guess MitD either has DR/epic or DR/adamantine, maybe even DR/adamantine and magic (or epic), which basic magical daggers won't bypass.

And as others have said, magical weapons do not bypass damage reduction for specific materials. Just DR/magic and DR/epic. Vs DR/silver or DR/cold iron, you actually need the silver or cold iron (ditto for the adamantine I mentioned above). That's why Haley used those specific arrow types against Sabine.

Zevox

[Number 6]

I won't contest the point that maybe all the characters have +1 - +3 weapons and/or armor. My original point still stands: most players expect to have magic armor, boots, cloak, three or four wands, rods, or staves if you're a MU or cleric, three or four rings, one or two miscellaneous items, and a flaming/holy/life stealing weapon by the time they're tenth level. Most of thm have an artifact or ring of three wishes. The OOTS gets by with much fewer items than these; they only have three really powerful items in the whole party. And, you can't say V has a wand of fireballs hidden under the roble or s/he would have used it before.

And my "problem" with too many magic items is that the game is supposed to be about finishings quests, overcoming obstacles, and maybe mixing in some role playing along the way. If you're only playing it to gather as much e.p. and magic items, plus making the perfect build, you're just being a munchkin. You might as well play Descent. Or Monopoly.

Also, if you've got a wagon load of magic items plus Teleport, all the challenge is gone from the campaign. Unless you campaign in the Abyss.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Elan has a +3 rapier.


Julio said it was a +3 Keen Rapier before giving it to Elan.

Also, they definitely have magical items that haven't been mentioned. I hear that in one of the bonus comics of some book:

Belkar throws a Ring of Protection +1 into the trash, illustrating the discrepancy between Adventurers' mindsets and everyone else's. Magical Item worth 1000 gp? Obsolete to an adventurer. To a commoner? They could retire off of that thing.

Oh, and when falling, Roy pulls out a plethora of potions he didn't know he had, including Shillelagh oil, which is useless to him (he wondered why he even had it). Of course, a commoner would probably kill to get their hands on it (it's worth 50 gp...peanuts to an Adventurer, more than your average Joe makes in a year).



Elan has Boots of Stealth

Where was that mentioned?

[MickJay]

Where was that mentioned?

It's Boots of Elvenkind, it was already corrected.

[Zevox]

I won't contest the point that maybe all the characters have +1 - +3 weapons and/or armor. My original point still stands: most players expect to have magic armor, boots, cloak, three or four wands, rods, or staves if you're a MU or cleric, three or four rings, one or two miscellaneous items, and a flaming/holy/life stealing weapon by the time they're tenth level.
Hate to tell you, but by the level the Order is at (seems to be 13-14 now), most of that would be quite reasonable considering the challenges they're likely to face and the amount of wealth they're supposed to have. An average level 14 character has accumulated 157,000 gp (between gold and the value of whatever items they come across) at minimum over their life, and theres not much point in spending much of that on non-magical items. A few thousand gp at most will cover all the non-magical stuff they'll ever need - and most of that they should be trading up for magical items as they go along. Hell, by the point they're at, if they're still stuck with weapons or armor with a mere +1 or even +2 bonus and nothing else, they're way behind the curve.


Most of thm have an artifact or ring of three wishes.
Oh come now, that's an exaggeration. They'd have to have a real fool of a DM to get ahold of such items before at least level 16, and even then letting them keep them like they're some typical piece of equipment rather than using them as plot items wouldn't be bright.


And my "problem" with too many magic items is that the game is supposed to be about finishings quests, overcoming obstacles, and maybe mixing in some role playing along the way.
Its never a good idea to be tossing around phrases like "the game is supposed to be about..." Different people play for different reasons, and trying to enforce one way of playing is a good way to cause a lot conflicts.


If you're only playing it to gather as much e.p. and magic items, plus making the perfect build, you're just being a munchkin.
You don't need to playing only for that purpose to want to have appropriate equipment for your level.

Zevox

[lord_khaine]

And my "problem" with too many magic items is that the game is supposed to be about finishings quests, overcoming obstacles, and maybe mixing in some role playing along the way. If you're only playing it to gather as much e.p. and magic items, plus making the perfect build, you're just being a munchkin. You might as well play Descent. Or Monopoly

lets make a deal, stop insulting other peoples playstyle, and i wont comment on how it seems you have forgotten that the game is actualy about having fun with your friends :smallfurious:

[TengYt]

Yeah, there's no "right" way to play D&D. For many people, getting the most awesome equipment ever and pimping out their characters is a huge part of the game.

[Ron Miel]

By the way, Elan's boots were confiscated when he was in prison. So he doesn't have them any more.

[King of Nowhere]

I won't contest the point that maybe all the characters have +1 - +3 weapons and/or armor. My original point still stands: most players expect to have magic armor, boots, cloak, three or four wands, rods, or staves if you're a MU or cleric, three or four rings, one or two miscellaneous items, and a flaming/holy/life stealing weapon by the time they're tenth level. Most of thm have an artifact or ring of three wishes. The OOTS gets by with much fewer items than these; they only have three really powerful items in the whole party. And, you can't say V has a wand of fireballs hidden under the roble or s/he would have used it before.

I don't think they're expected to have all that stuff. Maybe in rpg videogames, where you get so much stuff that in the end you get 3 bags of holding full of equipment you keep just in case.
In pen and paper roleplaying, the whealt per level don't allow you to have all that stuff, unless you take underpowered stuff. Generally you can get one or two really good items, a bunch of +1/+3 rings/amulets/belts/boots, and a few potions and scrolls, like the oots.
So, they have about the whealt they're supposed to have.


Also, if you've got a wagon load of magic items plus Teleport, all the challenge is gone from the campaign. Unless you campaign in the Abyss.
If your villain is powerful enough, he will have a base teleported against teleport and scrying and ethereal transition and plenty of minions and mosters, and it will become powerful enough to challenge you. So, it's still a challenging campaign (unless you're playing said rpg videogames, like neverwinter nights, who has a good plot but is as challenging as a lame kobold).

It is much more a problem for a DM to keep their PC with few magic items, since when they defeat an enemy group of adventurers, said adventurers will be expected to have their full items to loot