You can get pre-approved for damnation?

[paladinofshojo]

Is it only for PCs or is any powerful non-NPC class eligible?

[wootage]

Is it only for PCs or is any powerful non-NPC class eligible?

I believe the powers that be agreed that at birth, everyone is pre-approved for damnation. The good news is, we're also pre-approved for salvation ;)

[Prak]

I believe the powers that be agreed that at birth, everyone is pre-approved for damnation. The good news is, we're also pre-approved for salvation ;)

yeah but salvation's the one with the real loopholes, hoops to jump through, and hard to obey bylines and clauses, also fewer (if any) benefits. Damnation's the way to go really, it's just gotten a lot of mud slung at it.

[Amon Star]

Without wanted to ruin the joke, my theory as to why :vaarsuvius: was pre-approved is simply.

It's because Ears knows about the Snarl, as do Quarr's masters, thanks to :sabine: telling them. Therefore, the latter is a devil.

[Zerg Cookie]

Facts:
V is a very powerful wizard
Powerful wizards are useful to devils/demons/whatever
Powerful wizards are rare

Now take a few seconds to think about it...
The lower planes want V's powers! So they pre-approved hir (and probably any other high level arcane caster)

[Raenir Salazar]

yeah but salvation's the one with the real loopholes, hoops to jump through, and hard to obey bylines and clauses, also fewer (if any) benefits. Damnation's the way to go really, it's just gotten a lot of mud slung at it.

I dunno... the unlimited sex and booze seems like a cincher to me.


In all seriousness (in D&D cosmology) being "evil" is only really worth it if your either a God, favoured by an evil god willing to pull your ass from the fire, immortal, or live so freakishly long that your powerful enough that they can't grab you anyways as your soul seems to be as powerful as you in da afterlife.

Faerun makes this even more blatant by forcing you to have a god or be dissolved into the Wall of the Faithless.

Cours' in D&D you can always become a Lich and alterself or shapechange into something visually pleasing and live, well, forever.

Course' this discussion only really matters IN D&D, as in reallife {scrubbed}

[Holammer]

Without wanted to ruin the joke, my theory as to why :vaarsuvius: was pre-approved is simply.

It's because Ears knows about the Snarl, as do Quarr's masters, thanks to :sabine: telling them. Therefore, the latter is a devil.

Imps are Devils and Succubi are Demons. They don't get along that well do they?

[Optimystik]

Imps are Devils and Succubi are Demons. They don't get along that well do they?

We don't know if there is a Blood War equivalent in OotS-land yet. Certainly the 'evil gods' are a lot more chummy in SoD than any of their Faerunian counterparts.

[Raenir Salazar]

She could be a Pleasure Devil.

[NerfTW]

as in reallife {Scrubbed}

Was that nasty little snipe really necessary?

[Balgus]

Was that nasty little snipe really necessary?As with all community discussions - religion and politics should be kept out. {Here especially given that our Forum Rules completely prohibit all discussion of real world religion and politics}

but then again - we are talking about demons and devils, salvation and damnation... {Yes, even then real world religion and politics are out of bounds}

My take is that Imp's masters, receiving a special request from the imp for a proposal that is highly beneficial, processed the paperwork in the fast lane. If Dona Trump wanted to buy a car, how long does it really take to process the paperwork? whereas when I bought on, I had 2 hours of papers to fill out. I am sure he was in and out in 20 minutes with the longest time waiting for his Bentley keychain which had to match the interior.

[Yukitsu]

My guess is that the contract clause states that they will give V power if V tells them hir gender, as it's been bugging the hell out of them, thus reducing their powers.

[Lord_Butters_I]

V is a decently powerful mage, definitely on the short list of power mages in the world, is an egomaniac, knows about the Snarl, and these days isn't thinking correctly. The archdevils were probably drooling over getting their hands on V.

[David Argall]

Without wanted to ruin the joke, my theory as to why :vaarsuvius: was pre-approved is simply.

It's because Ears knows about the Snarl, as do Quarr's masters, thanks to :sabine: telling them. Therefore, the latter is a devil.

It does not matter whether Sabine is devil or demon [tho demon seems much the more likely]. Qarr's masters do not know about the Snarl, at least not from Sabine, and apparently not at all.

Kubota's behavior, and Qarr's, is of simple opposition to the party, just like they would behave if they had no idea the Snarl or the gates existed.

When our lich approaches the city, Kubota has three basic choices, to get out of the way and wait for them to leave, to bravely defend the city, or to make a deal with Xykon.
Sabine knows that the lich is planning on staying around at least long enough to control the Gate, after which the city is unimportant. So if she shares masters with Qarr, Kubota would know that fleeing the city is a bad choice. But that is what he does. So Qarr and Kubota, and Qarr's masters, do not know about the Gate, nor about the Snarl [at least as a real danger].

Since then, Kubota and Qarr have treated the party as obstacles in their way. If there was any knowledge of the Gates or Snarl, they could remove those obstacles by just giving them some advice on where the next gate, or Haley is [after which the party would leave the fleet, exposing Hinjo to attack]. Instead they try to kill them, which would be disastrous from the view of stopping the Snarl, and left Hinjo defended.

So Qarr and Kubota are acting in absurd ways if we assume they know of the Snarl.

V is preapproved because it fits the story, and she is a powerful wizard on the edge.

[Optimystik]

So Qarr and Kubota are acting in absurd ways if we assume they know of the Snarl.

V is preapproved because it fits the story, and she is a powerful wizard on the edge.

That Qarr does not know of the Snarl is a given, but it is not the same as saying his masters do not know.

Qarr strikes me as second string at best - the kind of minion that one gives an onerous task (say, babysitting an ineffectual noble with delusions of grandeur) in order to keep him out of my way. Not foolish enough to kill, not smart enough to be useful. Certainly not important enough to confide in.

Qarr knows exactly how powerful and unique V is among the wizards of OotS-land ("Do you know how many wizards make it past X level"). Why then is HE surprised at V's prequalification? Clearly, to his experience, merely being a powerful PC wizard shouldn't have been enough. His bosses must know something he doesn't.

If Qarr and Sabine do share the same masters, however unlikely it may be by conventional D&D cosmology, then they know about the Snarl from her report in #380. If they don't, Qarr's masters still know something about V that Qarr hasn't considered.

[Silverraptor]

I don't know if you can or not. It would be up to the DM's choice. In this case you can considering V just got one.

[Holammer]

We don't know if there is a Blood War equivalent in OotS-land yet. Certainly the 'evil gods' are a lot more chummy in SoD than any of their Faerunian counterparts.

With strip #623 that does seem to be the case. It even referenced the blood war in an awesome way. Referring to interfaith with "Inter-fiend" really put a smile on my face :smallamused:

[David Argall]

We don't know if there is a Blood War equivalent in OotS-land yet.
Now we do.


That Qarr does not know of the Snarl is a given, but it is not the same as saying his masters do not know.
Much the same thing. The superiors, lawful types who by definition are prone to oversupervision rather than under, are still giving him orders or letting him do things that make no sense if they knew of the Snarl.


Qarr knows exactly how powerful and unique V is among the wizards of OotS-land ("Do you know how many wizards make it past X level"). Why then is HE surprised at V's prequalification? Clearly, to his experience, merely being a powerful PC wizard shouldn't have been enough. His bosses must know something he doesn't.
Turns out they didn't, but somebody else was looking in.

[hamishspence]

the chain of command in this case might be medium length- Qaar, reporting to a senior devil, reporting to a pit fiend. Devils in Fiendish Codex 2 do allow their subordinates a certain amount of free action, as long as they report in.

And the info might not have filtered back down the chain of command to Qaar from the Council- they may distribute the info Sabine gave them only on a need-to-know basis.

[Amon Star]

Well, I was partly right. It was to do with the Snarl, but :sabine: doesn't have the same masters as Qarr. Not that it matters in this case.

[hamishspence]

we still do't know for certain who Sabine reports to besides them- the Three are not likely to be her "normal" bosses.

Maybe, aside from them, she's a freelance fiend?

[Dallas-Dakota]

Ofcourse you can.

I already got my letter and ticket years ago.

Damn that oath of following a mortal lifetime without any significant powers...

[Roderick_BR]

Without wanted to ruin the joke, my theory as to why :vaarsuvius: was pre-approved is simply.

It's because Ears knows about the Snarl, as do Quarr's masters, thanks to :sabine: telling them. Therefore, the latter is a devil.
With the way they said "diabolic, daemonic, and demonic", and each of those guys have a different attitude (different alignments?), I'd say that they are, indeed a demon, daemon(whatever it is), and a devil representatives, so it's hard to say which one is linked to Sabine's bosses. Long story short: we still don't know if Sabine's a devil/demon/daemon, or whatever.

[raxies94]

Facts:
V is a very powerful wizard
Powerful wizards are useful to devils/demons/whatever
Powerful wizards are rare

Now take a few seconds to think about it...
The lower planes want V's powers! So they pre-approved hir (and probably any other high level arcane caster)

This is the answer I agree with. The characters have talked about how they don't think there are many high-lvl people in their world. So it makes sense.

[Amon Star]

With the way they said "diabolic, daemonic, and demonic", and each of those guys have a different attitude (different alignments?), I'd say that they are, indeed a demon, daemon(whatever it is), and a devil representatives, so it's hard to say which one is linked to Sabine's bosses. Long story short: we still don't know if Sabine's a devil/demon/daemon, or whatever.

They most likely are :sabine:'s bosses. Just take a look at panel six here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) However, you're right about this making it harder to work out :sabine:'s fiend type.

[Optimystik]

Now we do.

I posted that before #632 came out.


Much the same thing. The superiors, lawful types who by definition are prone to oversupervision rather than under, are still giving him orders or letting him do things that make no sense if they knew of the Snarl.

And I'm saying his orders may not have anything to do with the Snarl at all. The fact that he's looking for some irrelevant chalice or something means he doesn't know about the Snarl, it doesn't say anything about his bosses.


Turns out they didn't, but somebody else was looking in.

You're making assumptions again. If Qarr's real bosses are clueless as to V's position, who gave the IFCC "permission" to intercede?

[Prak]

*sigh* look, unless Rich has made up a fiend type, Sabine is a succubus, she herself has, IIRC, said that she's CE, she has bat wings and horns, I know she's said she's a shapeshifter, she's a Succubus. Meaning she's a demon, meaning Cedric, the Purple Eyed, is most directly tied to her "superiors".

[Kish]

*sigh* look, unless Rich has made up a fiend type, Sabine is a succubus, she herself has, IIRC, said that she's CE,
She very pointedly has not. Nor has she ever specified which lower plane she is from, or referred to herself as a demon or a devil.

I concur that unless Rich has made up a fiend type she is a succubus. Where we seem to sharply part ways, is that I consider it far more likely that Rich made up a fiend type than that he wrote her as a by-the-book succubus.

[Teron]

Technically, she has at least a couple of powers that normal succubi don't, namely the ability to drain energy without a kiss or "act of passion" and the ability to plane shift. She also hasn't used any of a succubus's actual spell-like abilities, even when teleportation, for instance, would have been rather useful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html). Personally, I think she's just a succubus "edited down" to a simpler, more story-friendly version of the creature's core concept, but I suppose there's room to argue otherwise.

Roderick_BR, daemons (more commonly called yugoloths) are the neutral evil counterparts to the lawful evil devils and chaotic evil demons.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I dunno... the unlimited sex and booze seems like a cincher to me.


In all seriousness (in D&D cosmology) being "evil" is only really worth it if your either a God, favoured by an evil god willing to pull your ass from the fire, immortal, or live so freakishly long that your powerful enough that they can't grab you anyways as your soul seems to be as powerful as you in da afterlife.

Faerun makes this even more blatant by forcing you to have a god or be dissolved into the Wall of the Faithless.

Cours' in D&D you can always become a Lich and alterself or shapechange into something visually pleasing and live, well, forever.

Course' this discussion only really matters IN D&D, as in reallife {scrubbed}
. . . or somehow manage to claw your way to the top of the pecking order.

[David Argall]

And I'm saying his orders may not have anything to do with the Snarl at all. The fact that he's looking for some irrelevant chalice or something means he doesn't know about the Snarl, it doesn't say anything about his bosses.

But if his bosses know anything much about the Snarl, they should be telling Qarr. Up until the death of Kubota, Qarr's devilish goals could have been advanced by that knowledge.


You're making assumptions again. If Qarr's real bosses are clueless as to V's position, who gave the IFCC "permission" to intercede?
Bosses who didn't know V's position. The IFCC had been tipped off by Sabine, and were watching V, among others. When the application was sent in, it was routinely rejected, as Qarr had assumed. But the IFCC asked for permission to handle the case and the devils in charge saw no reason not to let them do something so unimportant.

[Optimystik]

But if his bosses know anything much about the Snarl, they should be telling Qarr. Up until the death of Kubota, Qarr's devilish goals could have been advanced by that knowledge.

Why? You still haven't answered that. Is Qarr their only agent on the Material Plane? And even assuming he was, why would they ever predict a lowly imp would be in a position to affect anything concerning something as important as the Snarl?

Your analysis indicates that Qarr is clueless about the Snarl - I agree fully with that conclusion. Extrapolating that conclusion to cover his boss(es) is baseless.


Bosses who didn't know V's position. The IFCC had been tipped off by Sabine, and were watching V, among others. When the application was sent in, it was routinely rejected, as Qarr had assumed. But the IFCC asked for permission to handle the case and the devils in charge saw no reason not to let them do something so unimportant.

Again you're making unfounded assumptions. High-level PCs are extremely easy to find (as Mama dragon handily proved), so saying that V's position was unknown makes no sense. The applications they rejected from Qarr were on Kubota's behalf, a two-copper nobody, not V's. You don't know if Qarr's masters consider V unimportant, and you don't know anything about their decision to let the IFCC intercede. All we know for sure is that the IFCC answers to some higher authority (else they wouldn't have to "ask permission" and since their involvement was a result of Qarr's Faustian application, the likely culprits are the imp's real masters.

[Amon Star]

Again you're making unfounded assumptions. High-level PCs are extremely easy to find (as Mama dragon handily proved), so saying that V's position was unknown makes no sense. The applications they rejected from Qarr were on Kubota's behalf, a two-copper nobody, not V's. You don't know if Qarr's masters consider V unimportant, and you don't know anything about their decision to let the IFCC intercede. All we know for sure is that the IFCC answers to some higher authority (else they wouldn't have to "ask permission" and since their involvement was a result of Qarr's Faustian application, the likely culprits are the imp's real masters.

Not necessarily. The IFCC are probably independent of the standard fiendish hierarchies. They probably needed to get permission for jurisdiction purposes.

[Pronounceable]

Not necessarily. The IFCC are probably independent of the standard fiendish hierarchies. They probably needed to get permission for jurisdiction purposes.

It just might be possible that they are totally independent of Quarr's masters and have just intercepted his message, seizing the oppurtunity to take V. These ARE fiends, just because they say they got permission doesn't mean they have.

[Optimystik]

Not necessarily. The IFCC are probably independent of the standard fiendish hierarchies. They probably needed to get permission for jurisdiction purposes.

Which still implies that some other body has more authority than the IFCC does in this situation. Since Qarr filed the application, it is very likely that his normal superiors had that jurisdiction and that they were the ones from whom permission would need to be sought.


It just might be possible that they are totally independent of Quarr's masters and have just intercepted his message, seizing the oppurtunity to take V. These ARE fiends, just because they say they got permission doesn't mean they have.

The intercession claim was made by yellow, who is most likely Lee (LE), therefore he wouldn't be lying. Besides, if they really didn't care about the hierarchy, why mention permission at all? Qarr certainly couldn't stop them.

[Amon Star]

It just might be possible that they are totally independent of Quarr's masters and have just intercepted his message, seizing the oppurtunity to take V. These ARE fiends, just because they say they got permission doesn't mean they have.

That's a very good point.


Which still implies that some other body has more authority than the IFCC does in this situation. Since Qarr filed the application, it is very likely that his normal superiors had that jurisdiction and that they were the ones from whom permission would need to be sought.

I never disagreed with that. Quarr's superiors clearly have jurisdiction over :vaarsuvius:'s potential contract. Just not necessarily over the IFCC.


The intercession claim was made by yellow, who is most likely Lee (LE), therefore he wouldn't be lying. Besides, if they really didn't care about the hierarchy, why mention permission at all? Qarr certainly couldn't stop them.

Yes, cause Lawful Evil types never lie. Just ask :nale:. They won't lie on important stuff like the contract details, because that may invalidate it, but will lie in any other area if it'll be beneficial.

[David Argall]

Why? why would they ever predict a lowly imp would be in a position to affect anything concerning something as important as the Snarl?
They wouldn't, if we assume Sabine reports to others. But the claim here was that Sabine directly or indirectly reported about the Snarl to them. In that case, they would know that Qarr was in a position to possibly secure the Gate for them before the city fell, and they failed to give him orders or information that would have served their interests. Later, while V and friends were with the fleet, they would know that the party can be gotten out of the way by very simple means, telling them where Haley/Roy's remains is. Qarr is given a message, which Therkla delivers, and the party rushes off to Azure City or Greysky, leaving Hinjo a much easier target. Again, they don't do this.
We can work around this, but the presumption is that they just don't know.



High-level PCs are extremely easy to find (as Mama dragon handily proved), so saying that V's position was unknown makes no sense.
You are misunderstanding the meaning of position here. V's physical location is irrelevant. Her position is that of PC dedicated to defending the gates. As such he is much more important than level or such would suggest.



The applications they rejected from Qarr were on Kubota's behalf, a two-copper nobody, not V's.
Calling Kubota a nobody is looking at the picture from too PC centered a view. On the available evidence, Kubota is [nearly] in position to do a fantastic amount of evil. Give him a guaranteed Hinjo killer and he rules the fleet, and maybe Azure City in the future. That's big stuff. By comparison, V is just a lackey who a "kubota" would hire to carry out his evil/good plots.
On the face of it, Kubota is a much better buy than V.


You don't know if Qarr's masters consider V unimportant, and you don't know anything about their decision to let the IFCC intercede.
I don't know, but I can see it hangs together. There is no reason to deem it even unlikely that uninterested devil superiors didn't reject it out of hand.



All we know for sure is that the IFCC answers to some higher authority (else they wouldn't have to "ask permission"
This is incorrect. If California wants to do something in Nevada, they have to get Nevada's permission despite Nevada not being the higher authority, and in most practical ways, clearly the inferior. When dealing with a bureaucracy, which is our model for the hells, it is quite routine for A to need permission from B despite B being in no way the superior of A.
If we have the Unholy bureau of Soul Purchase, we can easily imagine it waging a turf war, demanding that souls applying for purchase be its sole responsibility, and making groups like the IFCC ask permission to approach people like V.
We can imagine any number of other setups, but getting permission is different from getting orders. The initiative comes from the IFCC. Qarr's masters merely grant permission, a passive role that does not require them to know a thing about Sabine, the gates, or the Snarl.

Nor is it likely the IFCC has any superiors. It reports to three superiors presumably, one devil, one demon, and some NE guy. They are at crosspurposes to some extent and the IFCC can simply ignore any orders it doesn't like by referring to orders issued by one of the other two superiors.
We can speculate how the evil planes regard the IFCC. Probably not well. The Devils and Demons hate each other, and the neutrals profit from playing off one against the other. Quite possibly they are deemed foolish do-gooders and the IFCC is deemed a place to dump incompetent or inconvenient fiends. They may also be deemed potential traitors, or be used as spies.

[The Glyphstone]

Calling Kubota a nobody is looking at the picture from too PC centered a view. On the available evidence, Kubota is [nearly] in position to do a fantastic amount of evil. Give him a guaranteed Hinjo killer and he rules the fleet, and maybe Azure City in the future. That's big stuff. By comparison, V is just a lackey who a "kubota" would hire to carry out his evil/good plots.
On the face of it, Kubota is a much better buy than V.
.


Have you looked at the condition of this comic's fourth wall lately? The fact that V is a PC and Kubota is a B-list antagonist NPC is a 100% justifiable IC reason for the Lower Planes to pick V over Kubota.:smallsmile:

[kusje]

Calling Kubota a nobody is looking at the picture from too PC centered a view. On the available evidence, Kubota is [nearly] in position to do a fantastic amount of evil. Give him a guaranteed Hinjo killer and he rules the fleet, and maybe Azure City in the future. That's big stuff. By comparison, V is just a lackey who a "kubota" would hire to carry out his evil/good plots.
On the face of it, Kubota is a much better buy than V.



Do we know if Kubota has evil goals? All we know is that he wants to rule Azure city and he's trying to take charge using questionable means. Heck, I'd want to rule Azure city if I were a strong noble with loads of forces and backup too. Don't forget that the ruler of Azure city was useless (seemingly) and close to insane.

I don't deny that he is evil (using those questionable means makes him evil), but we haven't had much evidence to show that he would be a tyrant if he were to take power.

[Balgus]

Do we know if Kubota has evil goals? All we know is that he wants to rule Azure city and he's trying to take charge using questionable means. Heck, I'd want to rule Azure city if I were a strong noble with loads of forces and backup too. Don't forget that the ruler of Azure city was useless (seemingly) and close to insane.

I don't deny that he is evil (using those questionable means makes him evil), but we haven't had much evidence to show that he would be a tyrant if he were to take power.Questionable compared to Western Society. In Tribal Japan, this was the way of life. It gets worse if we cross the narrow sea onto mainland china. A leader can lead as long as he is strong. As soon as he shows weakness, it's every man for himself to usurp the throne.

[Kish]

Have you looked at the condition of this comic's fourth wall lately? The fact that V is a PC and Kubota is a B-list antagonist NPC is a 100% justifiable IC reason for the Lower Planes to pick V over Kubota.:smallsmile:
Besides which, it's not "rules the fleet and maybe Azure City in the near future." It's "Rules the fleet and promptly shatters it against the hobgoblin horde, wasting every bit of power he has." Because Kubota discounts the hobgoblins as a military power is no reason for Qarr's bosses to do so.

Do we know if Kubota has evil goals? All we know is that he wants to rule Azure city and he's trying to take charge using questionable means.
And he finds upward mobility for anyone who isn't a noble profoundly offensive.

Questionable compared to Western Society. In Tribal Japan, this was the way of life.
:miko: Where is this Japan?

[Warren Dew]

Kubota discounts the hobgoblins as a military power

Where do you get that?


we still do't know for certain who Sabine reports to besides them- the Three are not likely to be her "normal" bosses.

Maybe, aside from them, she's a freelance fiend?

I think we saw her reporting to the IFCC before, and she makes a special trip back seemingly to keep them informed, so it does seem like she works for them.

Now, that doesn't mean she's not freelance; she did seem to be working on commission, as they did remind her that she got 10%. 10% of the spoils of a victory for evil over good could be a big enough incentive to keep her pretty loyal, though.

[Optimystik]

They wouldn't, if we assume Sabine reports to others. But the claim here was that Sabine directly or indirectly reported about the Snarl to them. In that case, they would know that Qarr was in a position to possibly secure the Gate for them before the city fell, and they failed to give him orders or information that would have served their interests. Later, while V and friends were with the fleet, they would know that the party can be gotten out of the way by very simple means, telling them where Haley/Roy's remains is. Qarr is given a message, which Therkla delivers, and the party rushes off to Azure City or Greysky, leaving Hinjo a much easier target. Again, they don't do this.
We can work around this, but the presumption is that they just don't know.

Sabine answers to the IFCC, but that doesn't mean she told Qarr's masters anything; he clearly has nothing to do with the group. Nothing Sabine does can be used as a basis for what Qarr's masters may or may not know.


You are misunderstanding the meaning of position here. V's physical location is irrelevant. Her position is that of PC dedicated to defending the gates. As such he is much more important than level or such would suggest.

"Level or such" does matter for such a position. We can argue that every rank and file paladin and elf in Soon and Lirian's respective armies was also "dedicated to defending the gates." Would they be as likely to be offered Faustian Pacts as V?


Calling Kubota a nobody is looking at the picture from too PC centered a view. On the available evidence, Kubota is [nearly] in position to do a fantastic amount of evil. Give him a guaranteed Hinjo killer and he rules the fleet, and maybe Azure City in the future. That's big stuff. By comparison, V is just a lackey who a "kubota" would hire to carry out his evil/good plots.
On the face of it, Kubota is a much better buy than V.

You're not thinking like a fiend. Kubota is a much worse buy than V.

1) He's already LE, so the fiends have very little to gain by granting him a contract: his soul is practically in their hands already.

2) His power is purely political in nature, and since its sole source is his bloodline, can't be augmented. They could grant him wealth, which would be rather useless on a boat (not to mention being difficult to explain), or they could provide him with a magic item (a very risky investment since he has no innate way to protect it). No, the fiends would be better served by empowering his "Hinjo-killer," for the same reasons they stand to benefit by empowering V. Not merely because it will corrupt them, but because their increased innate powers would be able to do more with that corruption.


I don't know, but I can see it hangs together. There is no reason to deem it even unlikely that uninterested devil superiors didn't reject it out of hand.

If the true archdevils were uncaring enough to reject V's application, the IFCC could have just decided to step in of their own accord; why then would they need to mention being granted permission?

"They could be lying," I can hear you say; but as I mentioned before, it is the yellow one that mentions permission, and he is very likely to be the devil in the trio. As a rule, devils don't lie; they may omit or downplay key elements of a bargain, but anything they actually say is true.


This is incorrect. If California wants to do something in Nevada, they have to get Nevada's permission despite Nevada not being the higher authority, and in most practical ways, clearly the inferior. When dealing with a bureaucracy, which is our model for the hells, it is quite routine for A to need permission from B despite B being in no way the superior of A.

A blatant straw man: I never claimed that Qarr's masters were absolutely superior to the IFCC. They merely have higher authority here due to jurisdiction, just as Nevada is the higher authority when it comes to Nevada's jurisdiction. The fact is that the IFCC had to ask for permission when it came to bargaining for V's soul; whether or not they have to ask for permission to do other things is completely irrelevant.

The one fact we do know about them is that they cannot act with impunity when answering imp applications.


Nor is it likely the IFCC has any superiors. It reports to three superiors presumably, one devil, one demon, and some NE guy. They are at crosspurposes to some extent and the IFCC can simply ignore any orders it doesn't like by referring to orders issued by one of the other two superiors.

If they have no superiors, who is "approving" their PR campaign? Nevada would have no authority to determine California's state motto, after all. Your analogy needs work.


We can speculate how the evil planes regard the IFCC. Probably not well. The Devils and Demons hate each other, and the neutrals profit from playing off one against the other. Quite possibly they are deemed foolish do-gooders and the IFCC is deemed a place to dump incompetent or inconvenient fiends. They may also be deemed potential traitors, or be used as spies.

...Or they might be Asmodeus, Orcus and Shar wearing sheets to keep up appearances, all for the greater goal of toppling the heavens. We just don't know.

And however "incompetent or inconvenient" they may be, clearly they have the power to deliver on Faustian Pacts. That alone makes them too powerful to be simply ignored.

[Amon Star]

Questionable compared to Western Society. In Tribal Japan, this was the way of life. It gets worse if we cross the narrow sea onto mainland china. A leader can lead as long as he is strong. As soon as he shows weakness, it's every man for himself to usurp the throne.

Western Feudal society in RL was just as bad, if not worse. However, that's irrelevant, as D&D society often follow very modern concepts. Especially the good ones and as Azure City is a Lawful Good monarchy, Kabuto's behaviour, even if acknowledged as happening a lot, is considered as acceptable if a English lord tried it, ie, not at all.
Sabine answers to the IFCC, but that doesn't mean she told Qarr's masters anything; he clearly has nothing to do with the group. Nothing Sabine does can be used as a basis for what Qarr's masters may or may not know.

When this discussion started, we didn't know that. It was still possible that Sabine reported her findings to the Devilish hierarchy.


"Level or such" does matter for such a position. We can argue that every rank and file paladin and elf in Soon and Lirian's respective armies was also "dedicated to defending the gates." Would they be as likely to be offered Faustian Pacts as V?

Possible, if the IFCC knew about them personally. We don't know.


If the true archdevils were uncaring enough to reject V's application, the IFCC could have just decided to step in of their own accord; why then would they need to mention being granted permission?

"They could be lying," I can hear you say; but as I mentioned before, it is the yellow one that mentions permission, and he is very likely to be the devil in the trio. As a rule, devils don't lie; they may omit or downplay key elements of a bargain, but anything they actually say is true.

Out of interest, why do you think the yellow one is the Devil?


A blatant straw man: I never claimed that Qarr's masters were absolutely superior to the IFCC. They merely have higher authority here due to jurisdiction, just as Nevada is the higher authority when it comes to Nevada's jurisdiction. The fact is that the IFCC had to ask for permission when it came to bargaining for V's soul; whether or not they have to ask for permission to do other things is completely irrelevant.

The one fact we do know about them is that they cannot act with impunity when answering imp applications.

Not a strawman, a misunderstanding. I thought you meant the IFCC were a part of the Baatorian hierarchy too.


If they have no superiors, who is "approving" their PR campaign? Nevada would have no authority to determine California's state motto, after all. Your analogy needs work.

It's possible that they're waiting on independent funding from powerful members of each faction, as many organizations like this rely on sponsorship, at least at first. But this is just supposition.

[Optimystik]

When this discussion started, we didn't know that. It was still possible that Sabine reported her findings to the Devilish hierarchy.

If she did, then that strengthens my argument (that Qarr's devilish masters may know about the Snarl.) What we do know is that the IFCC knows, and that they are somehow in contact with Qarr's masters since they intercepted his application. Either way, there is a link between the devils and the IFCC; we should be presuming knowledge, not ignorance, of V's importance.


Possible, if the IFCC you about them personally. We don't know.

"Possible" is not the same as "equally likely."


Out of interest, why do you think the yellow one is the Devil?

See the "Which Fiend is which?" thread for reasoning. The gist of it is that the middle one is likely neutral, therefore yellow is either lawful or chaotic, and purple fits chaos much more easily with his wacky behavior.


Not a strawman, a misunderstanding. I thought you meant the IFCC were a part of the Baatorian hierarchy too.

They are a part of it, just not completely. In the same way that Nevada must go up the Californian chain of command in order to exercise jurisdiction in California, to use David's analogy.


It's possible that they're waiting on independent funding from powerful members of each faction, as many organizations like this rely on sponsorship, at least at first. But this is just supposition.

Even if all they require is funding, their sponsors would still have authority over the direction the organization takes and the use to which their donations are put. For most non-profits, the board accedes to the wishes of the largest donors. The fiends themselves prove that this is true by indicating they have to run their campaign by these unknown individuals before it can be enacted.

[David Argall]

Sabine answers to the IFCC, but that doesn't mean she told Qarr's masters anything; he clearly has nothing to do with the group. Nothing Sabine does can be used as a basis for what Qarr's masters may or may not know.
The contention has been that Sabine has been telling Qarr's superiors something, directly or indirectly. Our reasoning here says there has been no such connection.
It also argues Qarr's bosses do not know about the gates or the Snarl.


You're not thinking like a fiend. Kubota is a much worse buy than V.
Your position is challengable, but once we get into any sort of vague equality in their value, we are essentially agreeing with Qarr. It is a surprise that there was any positive fiendish response at all.



If the true archdevils were uncaring enough to reject V's application, the IFCC could have just decided to step in of their own accord; why then would they need to mention being granted permission?
Any number of possible reasons, but one would be that our bureau deems its decision to be final. For the IFCC to offer to buy a soul would be overruling it and completely unacceptable to the bureau. So the IFCC must get permission to act from the bureau.



They merely have higher authority here due to jurisdiction,
But that does not make them any sort of superiors.



If they have no superiors, who is "approving" their PR campaign?
The analogy would seem to be with the UN here. In theory [or wishful thinking], it is a world government. But unless somebody approves the money, it can't do anything, and it can do little enough in any case. So their budget is being approved by devil, demon, and daemon powers. And it is likely that getting support from all three is difficult.


Even if all they require is funding, their sponsors would still have authority over the direction the organization takes and the use to which their donations are put.
No, they would have influence, quite possibly massive, but they would not have authority. My boss's boss would normally have authority over me and when he says I am fired, my boss has no say in the matter. When our biggest customer demands I be fired, he has a lot of influence and I had better get my resume up to date, but my boss can, in theory, just ignore the demand.


...Or they might be Asmodeus, Orcus and Shar wearing sheets to keep up appearances, all for the greater goal of toppling the heavens.
Unlikely. While we don't know the size of the blood war in the OOTS world, it is easy to think of a small peace movement in a big war, but just about impossible to think of a big peace movement in a small one. So our presumption is that this is quite the minority position.



Do we know if Kubota has evil goals? All we know is that he wants to rule Azure city and he's trying to take charge using questionable means.
I don't deny that he is evil (using those questionable means makes him evil), but we haven't had much evidence to show that he would be a tyrant if he were to take power.

"Tell me what you did and I will tell you what you will do."
Kubota was quite willing to kill hundreds to achieve power. That is not just questionable means, it is evil means. We may not be sure he will be an evil tyrant, but that is rather clearly the way to bet.

[Optimystik]

The contention has been that Sabine has been telling Qarr's superiors something, directly or indirectly. Our reasoning here says there has been no such connection.
It also argues Qarr's bosses do not know about the gates or the Snarl.

As I said before, Sabine's actions have nothing to do with Qarr's bosses. At the very least we know that she answers to the IFCC, which group Qarr knew nothing about.

Sabine isn't proof of anything one way or the other.


Your position is challengable, but once we get into any sort of vague equality in their value, we are essentially agreeing with Qarr. It is a surprise that there was any positive fiendish response at all.

What? My exact point is that there is NO equality in their value, vague or otherwise. Not by a long shot. My exact description of Kubota was "two-copper nobody," remember?

My argument is and has always been that Qarr's assessment of the situation (that V's soul would be rejected just as Kubota's was) does not jive with that of his bosses. This latest strip reinforces my point, because the IFCC could have just as easily conducted their experiment with Kubota's soul. They very clearly did not.


Any number of possible reasons, but one would be that our bureau deems its decision to be final. For the IFCC to offer to buy a soul would be overruling it and completely unacceptable to the bureau. So the IFCC must get permission to act from the bureau.

I presume that by "bureau" you mean the archfiends that head each faction. Do they need permission from the IFCC for anything? The chain of command is clear.

Further proof: who "duly appointed" each of them?


But that does not make them any sort of superiors.

Jurisdiction goes hand in hand with authority. We see it all the time in police shows where the FBI takes control of a situation from the very disgruntled local police department, who are then powerless to do anything but assist.

All of which is moot anyway, this latest strip has pretty much confirmed that the IFCC must answer to the "lower-downs" before getting their little project off the ground.


The analogy would seem to be with the UN here. In theory [or wishful thinking], it is a world government. But unless somebody approves the money, it can't do anything, and it can do little enough in any case. So their budget is being approved by devil, demon, and daemon powers. And it is likely that getting support from all three is difficult.

Even when the UN takes action in a country, it must answer to that country's laws and government. They are free to act as they see fit within that framework.


No, they would have influence, quite possibly massive, but they would not have authority. My boss's boss would normally have authority over me and when he says I am fired, my boss has no say in the matter. When our biggest customer demands I be fired, he has a lot of influence and I had better get my resume up to date, but my boss can, in theory, just ignore the demand.

This is another flawed analogy. A trustee is not a customer. When just one main supporter pulls his funding, a non-profit can crumble. In this case, the supporters can not only dispense with the entire affair, they can and will actively destroy it if it proves troublesome.


Unlikely. While we don't know the size of the blood war in the OOTS world, it is easy to think of a small peace movement in a big war, but just about impossible to think of a big peace movement in a small one. So our presumption is that this is quite the minority position.

...Wow, you really took that statement seriously. I'm impressed.

My point is that you don't know what Qarr's bosses know or don't know, so any claims to that end are foolish.

[Amon Star]

If she did, then that strengthens my argument (that Qarr's devilish masters may know about the Snarl.) What we do know is that the IFCC knows, and that they are somehow in contact with Qarr's masters since they intercepted his application. Either way, there is a link between the devils and the IFCC; we should be presuming knowledge, not ignorance, of V's importance.

You missed my point. I merely pointed out that now we know these three aren't directly connected with Quarr. We didn't know that when the pre-approved letter first arrived. However, let's just focus on the current.


"Possible" is not the same as "equally likely."

We don't know enough to say it wasn't 'equally likely'. Knowledge of the Snarl is a very closely guarded secret. The IFCC know about it thanks to :sabine:. However, we don't know exactly what she said to them, so we don't know how they would've valued the Paladins and Elven Druids.
My point is that you don't know what Qarr's bosses know or don't know, so any claims to that end are foolish.

As I said above, knowledge of the Snarl is a very closely guarded secret. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Quarr's bosses know. Though the IFCC still have some connection, they do seem to operate mostly independent. But they might have had to divulge some info just to get permission to interact with :vaarsuvius:, assuming the lie they're feeding ears wouldn't work on their kin.