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SoD
2009-02-15, 11:39 PM
OK, the other day, myself and a friend (The Captain) were discussing DnD classes and he made the claim that a fighter is a better melee combatant than a cleric, and I burst into laughter. He seemed mildly annoyed at that, making references to both it's HD and BAB and weapon proficiencies. I told him that to proove my point, I said I could create a level 20 cleric, 32 point buy, full-hp-for-first-hd-average-the-rest-hp, cleric 20, to fight his created-in-similar-way fighter 20, all DnD 3.5 books allowed.

One mild problem; he's a bit of a powergamer, and I'm not! We've even gone to the trouble of getting a friend to judge this, but with my optimising skills, he could probably make a monk, a truenamer, or even a healer who could beat me!

And no, no PrC's, my straight cleric vs. his straight fighter.

Halp!

Dyllan
2009-02-15, 11:52 PM
OK, the other day, myself and a friend (The Captain) were discussing DnD classes and he made the claim that a fighter is a better melee combatant than a cleric, and I burst into laughter. He seemed mildly annoyed at that, making references to both it's HD and BAB and weapon proficiencies. I told him that to proove my point, I said I could create a level 20 cleric, 32 point buy, full-hp-for-first-hd-average-the-rest-hp, cleric 20, to fight his created-in-similar-way fighter 20, all DnD 3.5 books allowed.

One mild problem; he's a bit of a powergamer, and I'm not! We've even gone to the trouble of getting a friend to judge this, but with my optimising skills, he could probably make a monk, a truenamer, or even a healer who could beat me!

And no, no PrC's, my straight cleric vs. his straight fighter.

Halp!

Well, we need ground rules for the combat first.

I assume any offensive spells are out, or you wouldn't be having a melee fight. But buffs and healing are okay? Or is healing out too?

Also, does the cleric get any time to buff ahead of time? If so, what duration buffs can be prepared? I would think a realistic rule would be to allow hour/round and longer spells to be prepped ahead of time (that includes anything persisted, of course).

What about equipment? If it's an anything goes situation, watch out for anything that can dispel your buffs.

The cleric build will probably be more about buffs than feats. You're going to want Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell for sure. Quicken would be good as well, so you can keep buffing in combat without slowing down your melee attacks.

Do you know if he's likely to go pure damage, spiked-chain tripper, or what? Some idea of what he will do would go a long way to counter it.

SoD
2009-02-16, 12:04 AM
Ground rules for combat; are yet to be decided, and will be decided for a fair fight by our friend (Nick). Offensive spells are allowed, but the challenge is assumed to be melee cleric, so I'm mainly looking at buffs. Since healing is what clerics are about (sorta), I'm assuming it'll be allowed.

Equipment; if it's in a book, and we can afford it, it's allowed. Standard WBL by the way.

A few things he's mentioned; is that if I turn massive, he's possibly taking piton-fighting as a feat (what-ever that does), which apparantly gives friendly bonuses against larger-that-thou foes.

But as I'm no powergamer AT ALL, I do not know what feats/races/spells/items are useful for something designed to kill the sh*t out of something else. Also, as I'm focusing on buffs, I don't think my wisdom needs to be higher than 19, as I'm not focusing on offensive spells, and as I won't need to turn undead (unless I take a bunch of turning feats) I don't need charisma, so strength and constitution are my primary concerns. But, as mentioned, I'm sure the Playground knows better.

And as for what style he's going...I'm afraid I have no idea. But, if it helps, he has no idea what I'm going for.

Zaq
2009-02-16, 12:19 AM
Divine Metamagic: Persist (DMM is in Complete Divine, Persist Spell is in Complete Arcane) is, naturally, one of your nastiest (and some would say cheesiest, but hey, you're powergaming) abilities. Your buffs last allllllll day. The only rule is that it has to have a fixed or personal range, but most of the best buffs do anyway. Divine Power, a 4th level spell, is probably the most commonly persisted buff, completely negating any BAB advantage the fighter has over you. If you use Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) to get more turning attempts, that means more persisted spells, so that's an excellent way to spend your money. Divine Metamagic is really good for other things as well... a DMM:Quickened Gate or Shapechange is a lovely way to start off the battle.

Also, is polymorphing allowed? I know Shapechange is on several domain lists, so look at that. Most 9th level spells are, on some level, win buttons, so be sure to use and abuse them.

This is all just general, basic info. I've never actually played a cleric, nor even seen one played in such a way. I just know that these are some of the more common, and yet nastier, tricks that clerics have up their sleeves.

Oh, and Fighters rely really heavily on their magical items at higher levels. Mordenkainen's Disjunction is on the Magic domain list, and will make all of his costly items into junk. It's a dirty trick, of course, but completely legal and doesn't even require any rule-bending.

Scour the domain lists for spells, too. Miracle will let you use them regardless of what domains you pick, as long as they're 8th level or lower.

Between the all-day buffs of DMM:Persist, the rapid spellcasting of DMM:Quicken, and the fact that you get 9th level spells in the first place, he shouldn't stand a chance. The only major issue I can see would be if he had a huge initiative modifier and the Mage Slayer tree, but even then, you still have enough aces in the hole to mess him up good.

Dyllan
2009-02-16, 12:23 AM
Ground rules for combat; are yet to be decided, and will be decided for a fair fight by our friend (Nick). Offensive spells are allowed, but the challenge is assumed to be melee cleric, so I'm mainly looking at buffs. Since healing is what clerics are about (sorta), I'm assuming it'll be allowed.

Equipment; if it's in a book, and we can afford it, it's allowed. Standard WBL by the way.

A few things he's mentioned; is that if I turn massive, he's possibly taking piton-fighting as a feat (what-ever that does), which apparantly gives friendly bonuses against larger-that-thou foes.

But as I'm no powergamer AT ALL, I do not know what feats/races/spells/items are useful for something designed to kill the sh*t out of something else. Also, as I'm focusing on buffs, I don't think my wisdom needs to be higher than 19, as I'm not focusing on offensive spells, and as I won't need to turn undead (unless I take a bunch of turning feats) I don't need charisma, so strength and constitution are my primary concerns. But, as mentioned, I'm sure the Playground knows better.

And as for what style he's going...I'm afraid I have no idea. But, if it helps, he has no idea what I'm going for.

Well, let us know the ground rules as soon as possible. Specifically, you need to know what kind of spells you can cast before battle... I assume based on duration (push for minute/level or longer, but even 10 minute/level or longer would help).

I need to get to bed now. But I"ll be glad to give some advice tomorrow morning, assuming the rest of the Playground hasn't covered everything I can think of.

Also, do you have to choose a diety and base domains on that, or can you just pick any two domains? If you can pick any two, you want the Time domain, so you can get access to Haste.

d13
2009-02-16, 12:34 AM
Just try not to die because of massive damage, in the first round xD.

P.S: You're cheating... It's supposed to be you against your friend, not the whole Playground against him :smallamused:

Douglas
2009-02-16, 12:34 AM
Ok, you're going to want the Planning and Undeath domains because they give Extend Spell and Extra Turning as bonus feats. You will also need to spend feats on Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Assuming human, that leaves 6 feats. There's a good chance he'll build a Shock Trooper Ubercharger, and you can negate that with Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target. That leaves 3. Take Power Attack for one. I can't think of any obvious choices for the other two, so load up on two more Extra Turnings.

That's it for feats, now equipment. Get a weapon, +1 animated shield, mithral full plate, an amulet of natural armor, a strand/necklace of prayer beads, and a ring of enduring arcana (Complete Mage) to start with. Buy enough Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) to use DMM (Persist) on the following spells:
Greater Visage of the Deity
Holy Transformation
Holy Star
Divine Agility
Recitation
Righteous Might
Divine Power
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Conviction
Sheltered Vitality
Freedom of Movement
Death Ward
Shield of Faith
Miracle duplicating Bite of the Werebear
Stormrage
Greater Blindsight

Also cast Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment (on both shield and armor), Superior Resistance, Heroes' Feast, Extended Fortunate Fate, and just to really be sure, Death Pact.

Load up on whatever equipment suits your fancy after that.

Use the bead of karma on the strand of prayer beads for your daily buffing, giving you an effective caster level of 28 when combined with the Ring of Enduring Arcana for all your buffs.

If you really want to screw with him, cast Miracle to duplicate Ironguard. Unless he's using a non-metallic weapon (not very likely, I think) you will be literally immune to his attacks.

Note: Some of the spells I listed are circumstantial and unlikely to be of use against him, but the circumstances under which they are useful can come up because of equipment and if they do those spells will be very useful. It only costs 13125 gp worth of Nightsticks per additional DMM (Persist) spell, so with a level 20 character's budget you can afford a pretty long list.

Nohwl
2009-02-16, 12:36 AM
so just hit caster level 30 and cast holy word?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-16, 12:39 AM
First of all, winning initiative is everything. Spells like Sign (SC) and Moment of Prescience (via any of several domains) will ensure you victory in this regard.

Second, you have many ways of ensuring that he never even harms you, while he has no such measures apart from equipment. Just a Starmantle Cloak/Spell (BoED) and an Extraordinary Spell Aimed (CV) AMF and he has absolutely no chance of ever damaging your character unless he's specifically prepared for that situation.

If ESA:AMF and Starmantle are too cheesy, you could take the Trickery domain, max out Hide, and have Deeper Darkness and Ebon Eyes (SC) cast. Fighters don't get Spot as a class skill, so he would never even know where you're at short of Blindsense/Blindsight as long as you get a fairly decent bonus on top of skill ranks.

He has an opportunity to purchase armor and select defensive feats, you should have the opportunity to purchase and cast defensive items and spells. Your argument is that a Cleric is a better combatant than a Fighter because of his spells, so you should get to use them. Say that each character has the amount of time it takes to don a suit of Full Plate armor between waking up and going to the match. Your character will prepare spells in the evening and still have his entire allotment of spells still prepared from the previous day, and be able to devote that time to buffing prior to the match.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-02-16, 12:47 AM
].
DMM (Persist) on the following spells:
Greater Visage of the Deity
Holy Transformation
Holy Star
Divine Agility
Recitation
Righteous Might
Divine Power
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Conviction
Sheltered Vitality
Freedom of Movement
Death Ward
Shield of Faith
Miracle duplicating Bite of the Werebear
Stormrage
Greater Blindsight

Also cast Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment (on both shield and armor), Superior Resistance, Heroes' Feast, Extended Fortunate Fate, and just to really be sure, Death Pact.



That is a thoroughly disgusting number of persisted buffs. I approve. :smallbiggrin:

But, are you sure that Death Ward/Sheltered Vitality are necessary?

JeminiZero
2009-02-16, 12:54 AM
As mentioned, DMM persist is the backbone of any cleric-zilla. Other than that, you want to either go evil and drop a couple of DMM persist consumptive Fields to boost your caster level to high heaven, or grab Initiate of Mystra, which lets you cast and buff in an antimagic field. Ideally you would want both, but being a Cleric of Mystra tends to preclude being evil.

With consumptive field what happens is that you can increase your CL up to 0.5x your original, by killing some small helpless animals. So at level 20, you cast once and pump your CL to +10 for a total 30. Cast again, using your new CL of 30 and boost it to +15 for a CL of 35 (20+15). Its not 30+15 because repeated castings don't stack with one another directly. Cast a 3rd time and persist it on this casting, from a base 35 and pump your CL to +17 for a total of 37.

You can further boost CL by Ioun Stones and what not. Lets say you hit a caster level of 40. At this point, your Blasphemy/word of chaos/dictum will instantly drop anything with 30 HD or less dead, no save, bypasses immunity to death effects. Such as say, a level 20 fighter. You also automatically overcome any SR of 40 or less in case the fighter found some way to get that.

With the Initiate of Mystra, you may want to google the twice betrayer of Shar to see how to exploit DMM persist and AMF. Basically what happens is that you first drop an AMF on yourself, and then cast your buffs inside the AMF. The 3 key buffs are Delay Death, Woodland Ferocity, and Stone Body. Delay Death means you won't die when your HP drops below zero, Ferocity means that while your HP is below zero, you can fight as normal. Combined, it means that you cannot be killed by HP loss, while the spells are active. Stone body lets gives you immunity to ability damage, and you don't need to breath, so he can't try and drown you, or Mountain Tombstone Strike to kill you with Con damage.

While in the AMF, you are immune to Spells, SLAs, Su abilities, and of course magic weapons (like Vorpal). Importantly, Dispel Magic won't touch you hence protecting your buffs. By RAW, antimagic fields overlap with one another without any further effect, so if he tries to use, an AMF on you (e.g. antimagic torc), it simply overlaps with your field and leaves your buffs intact. In short, he can't dispel/deactivate your buffs, he can't kill you with HP damage, from thereon, its largely a war of attrition, with the odds seriously against him.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-16, 01:10 AM
Buff time is very important. Hour/Level buffs should be allowed before the fight starts, since you cast those immediately after praying. Same with 10 min/level buffs, especially if you extend them. DMM Persistent Spell or Quicken Spell allows you to toss much better buffs than you could otherwise. I recommend Divine Powerp, Divine Favorp, Righteous Mightp, Freedom of Movement, Hastep(from the Time domain), Hero's Feast, Greater Magic Weapon, and Magic Vestments(core). Brilliant Bladep, Death Pact, Greater Visage of the Deityp, Fortunate Fate, Renewal Pact, Divine Agilityp, and Stalwart Pact. Grab the Planning and Time domains. First round cast Rod-maximized Time Stop and throw up 5 buff spells. Doing so means you only need 2 persisted spells from my list(the ones marked by p). Proceed to kill.

I'd also look into going Cheater of Mystra, getting immunity to AMF, then Persisting AMF to eliminate his nice magic weapon/armor/items.

If you really want to cheat, take the spells Death Throes and Death Pact. Proceed to dodge thrown books.

Random NPC
2009-02-16, 01:25 AM
I say Disjunction the hell out of the fighter :smallbiggrin:

Douglas
2009-02-16, 01:26 AM
That is a thoroughly disgusting number of persisted buffs. I approve. :smallbiggrin:

But, are you sure that Death Ward/Sheltered Vitality are necessary?
In this particular case, probably not but you never know if he's going to show up with Wounding or Enervating weapons.

Oh, and that's nothing compared to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794).

I'd stay away from any AMF related shenanigans, along with hiding in darkness, etc. The point of this demonstration is imo to utterly outclass the fighter at his own game by the simple expedient of getting your attack bonus, damage, AC, hp, and other stats high enough that you can win easily by just standing there and exchanging blows. Known broken near-invulnerability combos don't really prove anything relevant to this discussion.

Ponce
2009-02-16, 01:38 AM
Just try not to die because of massive damage, in the first round xD.

P.S: You're cheating... It's supposed to be you against your friend, not the whole Playground against him :smallamused:

This. I mean, not only is it level 20 which is horribly in favour of the cleric, but you're stacking a whole community against him. Does he even know you're doing this? I mean, it is pretty outrageous to make the claim that the cleric is better at fighting when you don't know why this may be the case. To be perfectly fair, with liberal application of dispel magic by the DM and good optimization on the part of the fighter, the whole Cleric>Fighter thing isn't really true for the first 5-10 levels, at least.

SoD
2009-02-16, 02:13 AM
I mean, not only is it level 20 which is horribly in favour of the cleric, but you're stacking a whole community against him. Does he even know you're doing this?

Nope. And in my defense, I never said that I could create a cleric which was stronger than a fighter, I said that clerics (in general) are more powerful than fighters at melee.


I mean, it is pretty outrageous to make the claim that the cleric is better at fighting when you don't know why this may be the case.

I know why they are better at fighting. Because they get access to defensive magic, to prevent them from getting hurt, they get acess to buffs, which gives them the ability to become more powerful, and they get acess to healing magic, which allows them to heal themselves if they get hurt [duh]. I'm just no good at optomising.


To be perfectly fair, with liberal application of dispel magic by the DM and good optimization on the part of the fighter, the whole Cleric>Fighter thing isn't really true for the first 5-10 levels, at least.

I see...so if the DM throws stuff at the cleric which inhibits its ability to be better than a fighter, then the fighter will be better than the cleric? Also, your situation assumes the part of a campaign, with a party vs. something. I'm talking purely cleric vs. fighter.

Also, to the rest of the playground, thank you so far, and I'll see if I can get ground rules up soon (as soon as I know them!).

Keld Denar
2009-02-16, 03:25 AM
I'm really surprised noone mentioned cleric archer yet. I believe there was a fighter vs cleric duel over on CharOp, and the cleric that won did so by Time Stop + buffs + Knowledge Devotion + peppering with arrows. Fairly easy to do, and with the right domains, you don't even need DMM Persist.

FinalJustice
2009-02-16, 06:47 AM
Buy a Vorpal Weapon. Cast Surge of Fortune (persist, if you may). Discharge it to treat you first attack as a nat 20. Now it's just a matter of confirming the critical.

Cleric archer is also a good one. Better than meleeing with a fighter, which will probably be either an ubercharger or a tripmonkey.

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 07:20 AM
You could of course use Initiate of Mystra-trickery to Persist AMF on you and then cast all your buffs. Also, it's worth considering the option of just screwing the armor and using a Monk's Belt instead. And do remember to either Miracle or gain Hero-domain to Persist Giant Size. The boosts are enormous. Note that all the spells Douglas listed are either in PHB or Spell Compendium.

Heliomance
2009-02-16, 08:35 AM
Incidentally, how do you build a Clericzilla without DMM Persist? Without it, most of their buffs are short enough duration that you need to spend several rounds putting them up at the beginning of battle, meaning that by the time you're ready to fight the battle's over.

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 08:59 AM
Incidentally, how do you build a Clericzilla without DMM Persist? Without it, most of their buffs are short enough duration that you need to spend several rounds putting them up at the beginning of battle, meaning that by the time you're ready to fight the battle's over.

You buff for 1 round and then cast quickened buffs for as long as need be. Alternatively, if the fight is to be short, you just Quicken Divine Power and wade in, Quickening Righteous Might or Divine Favor the next turn. And of course have the Hour/Level and perhaps some 10 Min/Level-buffs on.

Dyllan
2009-02-16, 10:00 AM
I'm really surprised noone mentioned cleric archer yet. I believe there was a fighter vs cleric duel over on CharOp, and the cleric that won did so by Time Stop + buffs + Knowledge Devotion + peppering with arrows. Fairly easy to do, and with the right domains, you don't even need DMM Persist.

I think that's because the OP asked for a melee build, not an archery build.

Yes, cleric archer is awesome, but I don't think it's what the OP was looking for here.

One other question about rules: All 3.5 books are allowed. What about Dragon Magazine?

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-16, 02:31 PM
Considering you are going to be large and most likely have a better strength than him, tripping isn't going to be something to worry about. If he does a Spiked Chain Lockdown build you might be in trouble if you don't have any spells to blow him away.

He will probably go as a Charger, which means if you lose Initiative you will probably lose because he'll probably one shot you if he is the power gamer that you say he is. Elusive Target is going to make his Charger do almost no damage. Hell, if you have Elusive Target, you can probably kill him faster than he can kill you. Full-Power Attack with a DMM: Quicken Harm with each hit would hurt. And if you get low, Quicken Heal.

Of course, you could go with a Sun Domain and hit him with Sunburst. If he fails his Reflex, he loses.

Ponce
2009-02-16, 03:58 PM
Nope. And in my defense, I never said that I could create a cleric which was stronger than a fighter, I said that clerics (in general) are more powerful than fighters at melee.



I know why they are better at fighting. Because they get access to defensive magic, to prevent them from getting hurt, they get acess to buffs, which gives them the ability to become more powerful, and they get acess to healing magic, which allows them to heal themselves if they get hurt [duh]. I'm just no good at optomising.



I see...so if the DM throws stuff at the cleric which inhibits its ability to be better than a fighter, then the fighter will be better than the cleric? Also, your situation assumes the part of a campaign, with a party vs. something. I'm talking purely cleric vs. fighter.

Also, to the rest of the playground, thank you so far, and I'll see if I can get ground rules up soon (as soon as I know them!).

Well thats just my point. A well optimized fighter isn't actually that weak (at melee, anyway). If he starts breaking out things like Battle Jump, Shock Trooper, or Dungeon Crasher then he actually stands a good at beating you and his character will actually be a formidable melee combatant. If he doesn't, then the contest will be a bit misrepresentative.

The dispel magic thing is mainly with regard to the fact that it is a fairly simple and usually pretty common weapon, and can really take the wind out of the sails of a cleric, particularly one who makes heavy use of persistent spell or DMM.

At any rate though, assuming he is optimizing well, you might want to consider a monk's belt in favour of full plate.

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 04:26 PM
The thing about DMM is that it allows you to use sitiuational CL boosters meaning you can have your CL 4-5 points higher than average making your spells very hard to Dispel.

Also, Rings of Counterspells with Greater Dispel Magic are standard fare for Clerics. With Hand of Glory, you'll have 3 ring slots; that said, if Ring of Greater Counterspells is available, at least one Mordenkainen's Disjunction should be there too (and with Spell Compendium, it gets a bit harder with more Dispel-effects in existence). And your Ring of Spell-Battle can be used to redirect any spell including Dispel Magic and Disjunction e.g. back to their caster. Then there's Battlemagic Perception for extra free counterspell attempt.

Bottomline, a DMM Cleric can very well-defended from Dispel-effects, and there's little reason not to be prepared against the single most effective course of attack vs. you. And that's without ripping out Initiate of Mystra and walking around in an Anti-Magic Field requiring at least a Disjunction for opponent to even affect you (and all melee combatants facing you are without any magic items, buffs or such while you're fully buffed).

monty
2009-02-16, 04:30 PM
I seem to remember a weapon enhancement that made you immune to one specific spell of your choice. Anybody else know what it is?

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 04:42 PM
I seem to remember a weapon enhancement that made you immune to one specific spell of your choice. Anybody else know what it is?

The only thing I can think of is the Spellblade. From Player's Guide to Faerun, methinks. It exactly does exactly what you described, so that it is. A 6000 gp enhancement. Totally super special awesome. Only works against targeted spells though.

monty
2009-02-16, 05:03 PM
The only thing I can think of is the Spellblade. From Player's Guide to Faerun, methinks. It exactly does exactly what you described, so that it is. A 6000 gp enhancement. Totally super special awesome. Only works against targeted spells though.

Yeah, that was it. Put GDM on that, and you're much less vulnerable.

Myrmex
2009-02-16, 05:05 PM
I see...so if the DM throws stuff at the cleric which inhibits its ability to be better than a fighter, then the fighter will be better than the cleric? Also, your situation assumes the part of a campaign, with a party vs. something. I'm talking purely cleric vs. fighter.

Not really. A DM really has to pull his punches so as not to turn a DMM cleric into a mediocre warrior. Virtually every outsider worth its CR gets Greater Dispel Magic at will, along with stuff like teleport and fly. If played with a fraction of their 18+ int, they are going to turn off all the clerics' buffs. Even +4 from a bead of karma isn't going to help when you're hit by enough dispel magics. Running encounters where your monsters don't debuff PCs is going to easy on the players, imo.

Of course, this is excluding greater consumptive field shenanigans. If your game is that level of broke, why'd the DM let anyone play a fighter?

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 05:27 PM
Not really. A DM really has to pull his punches so as not to turn a DMM cleric into a mediocre warrior. Virtually every outsider worth its CR gets Greater Dispel Magic at will, along with stuff like teleport and fly. If played with a fraction of their 18+ int, they are going to turn off all the clerics' buffs. Even +4 from a bead of karma isn't going to help when you're hit by enough dispel magics. Running encounters where your monsters don't debuff PCs is going to easy on the players, imo.

Except Clerics have those same abilities as spells. And anti-Teleportation-abilities (Anticipate Teleportation, Dimensional Lock, Dimensional Anchor, etc.), meaning they'll easily get to the Outsiders if the Outsiders appear near them. And Outsiders have low CL (equal to HD and Outsiders are the one type with lowish HD) so their Dispel Magic will take a considerable time to do anything, especially through Beads (let alone Divine Spell Power). This is time you can't afford vs. a Cleric who teleports next to you and smites the living bejezus out of your evil ass, especially combined with the rest of the party.

So yea, Clerics ignore the first few Greater Dispels through variety of countermeasures (probably the Rings first, then Battlemagic Perception, or Spellblade if you happen to have one available), all the while he's busy teleporting next to the outsider, restricting its options and then smiting the living out of it.

GoC
2009-02-16, 05:33 PM
You're doomed.
He's going to play a grapple-monkey or a tripper and employ that nifty 1-use item that casts anti-magic field.
Sorry.:smallfrown:

Woodsman
2009-02-16, 05:34 PM
4 words for your cleric:

Strength Domain. Enlarge person.

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 05:42 PM
You're doomed.
He's going to play a grapple-monkey or a tripper and employ that nifty 1-use item that casts anti-magic field.
Sorry.:smallfrown:

Doesn't matter. Giant Size makes you too large to be fit into an Anti-Magic Field. Also, you'll have +32 to Strength and be Colossal. That spell alone wins this contest. And Miracle can replicate it in addition to it being a spell on the Hero-domain.

I mentioned it before, but it got buried in that Dispel Magic nonsense.

tyckspoon
2009-02-16, 05:44 PM
Not really. A DM really has to pull his punches so as not to turn a DMM cleric into a mediocre warrior. Virtually every outsider worth its CR gets Greater Dispel Magic at will, along with stuff like teleport and fly. If played with a fraction of their 18+ int, they are going to turn off all the clerics' buffs. Even +4 from a bead of karma isn't going to help when you're hit by enough dispel magics. Running encounters where your monsters don't debuff PCs is going to easy on the players, imo.


Bead of Karma+Ring of Enduring Arcana+Orange Ioun Stone means your spells are cast at +5, +9 against dispel attempts. Divine Spell Power can add up to another +4 and will usually be worth at least 1. That's a base dispelling DC of 20 before your own actual caster level is applied, 21 if you don't have hideous luck or you invest in Cha/Turning checks a bit to ensure Divine Spell Power is useful for you. Say the DMM cleric comes fully online at level 10, when he has a bit of cash to play with and most of his primary buff spells are available. He has his Bead of Karma and a Ring of Enduring Arcana, but probably not an Orange Ioun Stone since he still has to pay for a sufficiently large pile of Nightsticks. The static DC to dispel his persisted buffs is 29 and could range from 30 to 33 depending on if he uses and is lucky with Divine Spell Power. What sort of creature do you propose has the ability to just 'turn off' all of the cleric's buffs at that target number? Remember that base Dispel Magic can hit DC 30 at most for something with caster level of 10 or better who rolls a 20.

Tehnar
2009-02-16, 07:18 PM
Not really something the fighter has common access to but if you are buffed to high heaven and he hits you with a reciprocal gyre spell its going to hurt. A lot. With that many buffs a save is (25d12)/12 damage.

JeminiZero
2009-02-17, 09:43 AM
Doesn't matter. Giant Size makes you too large to be fit into an Anti-Magic Field. Also, you'll have +32 to Strength and be Colossal.


Actually, won't the AMF shut down Giant Size? I would reason that any part of you that enters the field instantly shrinks back to normal size, which in turn clears the square you *used* to occupy. This lets the fighter move into that square, which in turn moves the AMF into the next square, and shrinks another part of you again. Repeat until the field completely covers you, and you are back to normal size. (the step-shrink-step-shrink cycle can happen entirely in 1 move action since shrinking is instantaneous)

Unless you are abusing Initiate of Mystra-AMF, in which case, Giant Size is superfluous anyway. You can punch him to death in a grapple, by sheer virtue of being invulnerable.

Eldariel
2009-02-17, 11:25 AM
Actually, won't the AMF shut down Giant Size? I would reason that any part of you that enters the field instantly shrinks back to normal size, which in turn clears the square you *used* to occupy. This lets the fighter move into that square, which in turn moves the AMF into the next square, and shrinks another part of you again. Repeat until the field completely covers you, and you are back to normal size. (the step-shrink-step-shrink cycle can happen entirely in 1 move action since shrinking is instantaneous)

The Anti-Magic Field is never big enough to entirely cover you. 10' emanation centered on the Fighter cannot cover the whole 30'/30' creature. Since AMF only suspends (and does not dispel) the effect, it's never turned off as the entire effect is never in the AMF (it can cover at maximum 25').

Of course, you can make that point moot by wielding a trip-capable weapon and either buffing you Initiative to high heaven or having Combat Reflexes & Thicket of Blades; just Trip him with your immense size & strength modifiers and he never gets close enough to try fool around with his AMF.


By the way, I checked Giant Size and I was wrong; it's not in Spell Compendium. It is, however, in Complete Arcana (along with Wu Jen). Hero-domain is only in Oriental Adventures making it merely updated 3.0 material and thus meh, so Miracle is the least contestable means of acquiring Giant Size.

Tehnar
2009-02-17, 11:26 AM
What I would do as a fighter in 1v1 combat vs a clericzilla is the following, assuming its a fight where you start at X feet and roll initiative:

Take combat expertise and improved combat expertise feats. Also take stormguard warrior feats, and get blood in the water stance.

- take full bab into combat expertise, giving you great AC
- use combat rhythm from stormguard warrior to make touch attacks
- equip a keen falchion
- hopefully you wont be hit by the cleric, and you will be able to make the touch attacks
- the touch attack can crit (but deal 0 damage), however since you confirmed a critical hit, you add +1 (stacking) to your to hit and damage from blood in the water
- repeat until your blood in the water bonus gets high enough that you can bypass the clericzilla's buffed AC

The rest of the feats are pretty much open, except as a fighter I would get shield ward, elusive target and weapon supremacy. Though not really necessary. Just focus your magic items and feats into getting a high AC and BaB, and this should work provided the cleric doesn't use any offensive spells on you.

Eldariel
2009-02-17, 11:33 AM
What I would do as a fighter in 1v1 combat vs a clericzilla is the following, assuming its a fight where you start at X feet and roll initiative:

Take combat expertise and improved combat expertise feats. Also take stormguard warrior feats, and get blood in the water stance.

- take full bab into combat expertise, giving you great AC
- use combat rhythm from stormguard warrior to make touch attacks
- equip a keen falchion
- hopefully you wont be hit by the cleric, and you will be able to make the touch attacks
- the touch attack can crit (but deal 0 damage), however since you confirmed a critical hit, you add +1 (stacking) to your to hit and damage from blood in the water
- repeat until your blood in the water bonus gets high enough that you can bypass the clericzilla's buffed AC

The rest of the feats are pretty much open, except as a fighter I would get shield ward, elusive target and weapon supremacy. Though not really necessary. Just focus your magic items and feats into getting a high AC and BaB, and this should work provided the cleric doesn't use any offensive spells on you.

You can't get your AC much over 60 that way as a Fighter. A Cleric, even if he literally refuses to use offensive spells, can easily have attack bonus in the neighbourhood of +60 at that point. Also, the Cleric can just use special attacks such as Grapple or Trip to wreck you.

Tehnar
2009-02-17, 11:52 AM
Hmm I got up to 70 or so AC before I started to check out some of these spells that get persisted :smallfurious:. Evil, evil. No wonder i banned that feat from my campaigns :smallbiggrin:

monty
2009-02-17, 12:53 PM
Hmm I got up to 70 or so AC before I started to check out some of these spells that get persisted :smallfurious:. Evil, evil. No wonder i banned that feat from my campaigns :smallbiggrin:

Post your build or it didn't happen. Anyone can say they did something, but you need real numbers to back it up.

Eldariel
2009-02-17, 01:14 PM
Post your build or it didn't happen. Anyone can say they did something, but you need real numbers to back it up.

It's not that hard to believe:
+5 Mithril Tower Shield, +5 Mithril Full-Plate, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Ring of Protection, Ioun Stone, 16 Dex (base 10) = 10+9+13+5+5+1+3 = 46. Full Improved Combat Expertise = 66. Just add some random feats or sacred/competence/size/whatever AC sources to that and you're golden.

Tehnar
2009-02-17, 05:29 PM
It was just weapon supremacy +1, dodge +1, and fight defensivly with 5 ranks in tumble +3 on top of what Eldariel said for a grand total of 71. You probably could stretch that to 80 or so, with some buffs from scrolls (or partialy charged wands :smallwink:).

However, after looking at some of those persisted spells I think its still not enough for my strategy to work.

Eldariel
2009-02-17, 05:37 PM
Yea, if the Cleric really wants, his attack bonus will be over +100. And Grapple-modifiers et al. way higher than that. That's just how Clerics roll. He can also get AC around the same numbers.

Dominicius
2009-02-18, 02:02 PM
I'm really surprised noone mentioned cleric archer yet. I believe there was a fighter vs cleric duel over on CharOp, and the cleric that won did so by Time Stop + buffs + Knowledge Devotion + peppering with arrows. Fairly easy to do, and with the right domains, you don't even need DMM Persist.

Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present The Cleric Archer! (http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeons-and-dragons-24/cleric-archer-56474.html) Made by the man, the legend, Frank Trollman himself!

Just show this to your friend and you won't even need to fight him. A statblock is worth a thousand words.

JeminiZero
2009-02-18, 11:47 PM
The Anti-Magic Field is never big enough to entirely cover you. 10' emanation centered on the Fighter cannot cover the whole 30'/30' creature. Since AMF only suspends (and does not dispel) the effect, it's never turned off as the entire effect is never in the AMF (it can cover at maximum 25').


Well, I think it would be reasonable to argue that as long the AMF covered your main torso, you would immediately shrink back to normal size.

Lets take an anchored rope as an example. We take a mundane rope and tie it to a stake in the ground, and there is 5 ft distance from the tied end to the loose end of the rope. We then cast extension on the rope (there is no such spell in D&D, its merely to serve as an example) which causes it to extend to 50 ft (10x). We then stretch the rope out to its full length.

Next we bring in the AMF. If the AMF goes over the loose end of the rope, it immediately shrinks to 1/10th, back to its original size. So far so good. But if we bring the AMF over the tied end of the rope, the rope not only shrinks to 1/10 its size, it also pulls the rest of the extended rope in towards the anchored stake. But in so doing, the rest of the rope is also pulled into the AMF, causing it to shrink and pull in more rope. The pull-enter AMF-shrink cycle is repeated until the rope is now completely in the AMF and completely shrunken.

Likewise, as soon as the AMF covers part of your torso, it causes it to shrink, and pull in the rest of your torso, which enters the AMF, shrinks, and then starts pulling in your limbs. The net result is that you are *sucked* into the AMF and shrunk back to normal size.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 07:17 AM
Well, that's a nice houserule, but by the rules it does not work as such. But as said, even if he did, all he needs is a Trip-capable weapon+Thicket of Blades to deal with AMF-wielding Fighter (let alone Contingency, et co.).

Tehnar
2009-02-19, 04:03 PM
Lets see how buffs douglas said should be in effect on the cleric affect him. I
Ill use a human with following stats at level 1:

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 16
CHA 8

For a 32 point buy. Now lets say the cleric goes the more defensive route; ie puts ability points from level into wisdom and reads a +5 tome of wisdom. The cleric also buys a +6 enhancment to wisdom amulet.

So before the persisted buffs, she would have a WIS of 32 (+11). After the buffs her stats look like this (I hope I got everything):

STR: 44 (+17)
DEX: 24 (+7)
CON: 32 (+11)
INT: 8
WIS: 36 (+13)
CHA: 8

She could get more points into CHA, but Im going to ignore these, as they cant be used to gain a bonus to attack or AC.


At this point the cleric is large, has a total + 5 adjustment to hit, and a base attack bonus of 20. So +24 total. Adding the strenght and +5 from GMW gets that too + 46 (-1 size, +20 base, +17 str, + 3 luck, + 3 morale).
Comparing that to the easily achieved AC of 71 of the fighter, the cleric cant hit the fighter except on a 20. The too hit for touch attacks made by the cleric are: +41 (since you ignore weapon enhance bonus)

As for the AC it goes like this:
10 base
7 dex
13 wisdom
1 monks belt
1 natural
7 enhance to natural
6 circumstance
5 deflection
1 ioun stone
= 51 (43 touch AC, assuming circumstance goes into touch ac)

Even if the cleric switches to heavy armor and animated shield, she still cant get over that AC.


Now lets see how the fighter compares:


Ill also start human with these stats:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

With level focus in Strenght, tome of strenght +5 and a + 2 enhance bonus to dex and +6 to strenght gives the following (ill ignore other magic items contributions to other stats since they dont boost ab or AC):

STR 32
DEX 16
and others unimportant



As I said before this fighter when pouring his entire bab into combat expertise and fighting defensivly has a AC of 71.
His touch AC is 58.

His attack bonus is: +12 STR + 4(wpn focus, grt weapon focus, melee weapon mastery) + 5 weapon enhance -4 fight defensivly =+17

So the fighter can also hit the cleric only on a natural 20. In this game the cleric wins, since he has more hit points, and probably hits harder. However if the fighter can maintain his high AC while increasing his attack bonus by 10, the blood in the water stance should kick in and start boosting his attack bonus very quickly.

P.S. The fighter could use some potions to get higher AC and AB. He also has feats for two weapon fighting (with a defending offhand). Im assuming the cleric has no feats to spare.

P.S.S. My optimization-fu has never been great, and this is the best I could do with a no feat cleric, and mostly core fighter. I only used the spells douglas posted as persisted by the cleric. If no one can get the clerics AC and AB higher, im pretty confident that with a few low level buffs, and/or skill tricks the fighter can beat the cleric at melee combat. Of course it is assumed the cleric does not cast any offensive spells, since this is a melee power test.

Douglas
2009-02-19, 04:25 PM
Ok, now give the cleric Improved Combat Expertise too (there's more than enough open feat slots for it). The fighter's never going to score the crits he needs to power up Blood in the Water even with an extra +10, so we're back to both sides needing natural 20s and the cleric doing more per hit and having healing spells.

Or the cleric casts DMM Persistent Miracle for Wraithstrike and goes to town.

Oslecamo
2009-02-19, 04:34 PM
You know, it's really impressive that clerics are so easy to breack that you just need an entire forum's help to defeat a fighter.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 04:38 PM
Lets see how buffs douglas said should be in effect on the cleric affect him. I

I've said Giant Size a few times already. +32 Size to Str, among other things. That gets you already ~+60 to attack (easily enough to kill. He can also mimic crap like Owl's Insight which adds ~+12-14 to Wis giving him a relevant AC increase.

Also, Mithril Fullplate + Animated Heavy/Tower/Extreme Shield would add to the AC with the present config: Magic Vestment for +5 bonus, they add a total of +20-+22 together vs. the 13 Wis + 4 Dex (you get 3 Dex with Mithril Fullplate).

Of course, the best results comes from a spell (Greater Luminous Armor) or Bracers of Armor +8 making for a solid +8-+9 point increase. Polymorph would of course add 20 points to the Natural Armor, but bleh. You could also Miracle some random Shield-bonus I suppose, but that would be superfluous. And Recitation adds to 2 Luck AC and attacks.


And some buff definitely added Insight to AC and attack; I recall being really annoyed when my Cleric couldn't boost his attack with Knowledge Devotion effectively. But yea, the Fighter definitely just dies.

EDIT:

You know, it's really impressive that clerics are so easy to breack that you just need an entire forum's help to defeat a fighter.

Maybe he doesn't know spells well enough to actually effectively buff him himself and instead of spending few hours going through PHB and SC, he asks people who do? Does seem sensible; pointless to do work that's already been done and can be quoted in the span of minutes.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-19, 04:46 PM
Why bother with ClericZilla? Come on, this is an easy challenge. Why bother taking a melee-focused cleric against a Fighter? Granted, he will win because he is everything the fighter is, minus a few feats and plus full cleric casting, but why bother?

It's really simple. Divine Spell Power + Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos/Blasphemy. Dump 10 turn attempts into DSP. Auto-kill, no save. Have a nice day.

Douglas
2009-02-19, 04:47 PM
You know, it's really impressive that clerics are so easy to breack that you just need an entire forum's help to defeat a fighter.
No, he needs an entire forum's help to utterly crush an optimized fighter despite his own lack of skill in optimization. We're taking this to extremes for him, beating a non optimized fighter takes much less.

If you're just going for numbers then yes, Giant Size piles on some very nice bonuses. If you have to worry about fitting into a dungeon, going through halls and doors, or any similar concerns, being Colossal can be quite an inconvenience. It also makes most normal non-combat activities a bit weird.

Oslecamo
2009-02-19, 05:05 PM
No, he needs an entire forum's help to utterly crush an optimized fighter despite his own lack of skill in optimization. We're taking this to extremes for him, beating a non optimized fighter takes much less.


Congratulations, you're proving that the most optimized side wins the battle(one guy with unknown optimization capacity VS entire D&D forums). What does that actually proves about who's the best melee class?

If the fighter player also wants to take things to the extreme, you'll find a candle of invocation cheesed out fighter who's basically also a fullcaster trough shenigans and wins with celerity. But then you would all complain anyway.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 05:07 PM
Congratulations, you're proving that the most optimized side wins the battle(one guy with unknown optimization capacity VS entire D&D forums). What does that actually proves about who's the best melee class?

That when both are optimized, Cleric wins.

Oslecamo
2009-02-19, 05:12 PM
That when both are optimized, Cleric wins.

At this level of optimization no. Fighter can get acess to spells trough polymorph cheese wich he can get with items and emulate both wizard and cleric spellcasting to buff himself permanently. But that would be too cruel for the cleric player.

At top level of optimization there's Pun-Pun, but then classes are meaningless, because you already have all the capacities from all classes. And then rocks fall, everybody dies and the DM makes everybody play commoners in the next campaign.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-19, 05:13 PM
Congratulations, you're proving that the most optimized side wins the battle(one guy with unknown optimization capacity VS entire D&D forums). What does that actually proves about who's the best melee class?

If the fighter player also wants to take things to the extreme, you'll find a candle of invocation cheesed out fighter who's basically also a fullcaster trough shenigans and wins with celerity. But then you would all complain anyway.

Meh, you could do that with any class, which is how Giacomo ended up trying to prove that monks aren't a worthless class. Heck, a Rogue would be much better suited for that sort of cheese.

EDIT:
At this level of optimization no. Fighter can get acess to spells trough polymorph cheese wich he can get with items and emulate both wizard and cleric spellcasting to buff himself permanently. But that would be too cruel for the cleric player. And again, this can be done with any class, even a Commoner. What is the point? A cleric can do this just as easily as a Fighter can.

Someone said a Fighter is more powerful than a Cleric. This attempt is to disprove that. The tactic you describe is not the Fighter being more powerful, but how anyone can end up being very cheezy. It is not a reflection on how powerful or not powerful the class is, but the player's knowledge of rules exploitation.

Tehnar
2009-02-19, 05:31 PM
The reason the cleric cant take combat expertise (and imp version) is that I assume all his feats will go to extra turning. And still you will probably have to have enough nightsticks to build a medium sized cottage.

Oh one idea with giant size and antimagic field is you could tumble/jump through the clerics space, so the field gets to the spells point of origin, thus canceling the spell. After that its bye, bye for the cleric.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 05:36 PM
At this level of optimization no. Fighter can get acess to spells trough polymorph cheese wich he can get with items and emulate both wizard and cleric spellcasting to buff himself permanently. But that would be too cruel for the cleric player.

Fighters don't have metamagic spell trigger so their scrolled Shapechange doesn't last long. And custom magic items are...well, let's just say that anything DM specifically needs to make for you is pretty unreliable as far as character optimization goes.


At top level of optimization there's Pun-Pun, but then classes are meaningless, because you already have all the capacities from all classes. And then rocks fall, everybody dies and the DM makes everybody play commoners in the next campaign.

This isn't Theorethical Optimization. Don't bring Pun-Pun into this. These characters are perfectly playable in a normal campaign (both, an UMD Fighter Commoner and DMM: Persist Cleric) and the Fighter can never do Cleric's tricks as well as the Cleric can't without unlimited WPL or custom magic items (or wish loops or the like, but as those belong to TO, they aren't a consideration in the first place).

Douglas
2009-02-19, 05:46 PM
The reason the cleric cant take combat expertise (and imp version) is that I assume all his feats will go to extra turning. And still you will probably have to have enough nightsticks to build a medium sized cottage.
At this level Nightsticks are cheap, feats are not. 20th level WBL is literally enough to buy 100 Nightsticks, but you only get 8 feats, and 30 or so Nightsticks should be enough for any reasonable set of buffs - and that's with a rather loose definition of "reasonable".

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-19, 05:49 PM
Fighters don't have metamagic spell trigger so their scrolled Shapechange doesn't last long. And custom magic items are...well, let's just say that anything DM specifically needs to make for you is pretty unreliable as far as character optimization goes.



This isn't Theorethical Optimization. Don't bring Pun-Pun into this. These characters are perfectly playable in a normal campaign (both, an UMD Fighter Commoner and DMM: Persist Cleric) and the Fighter can never do Cleric's tricks as well as the Cleric can't without unlimited WPL or custom magic items (or wish loops or the like, but as those belong to TO, they aren't a consideration in the first place).

Umm... I never said that. That was Oslecamo again...

Tehnar
2009-02-19, 05:50 PM
I also consider the DMM cleric with a heap of nightsticks a bit on the side of theoretical optimisation. As in you wont see him in actual games with a DM that cares.

Or the DM will do exactly the same thing, and the two uber buffed characters will annihilate each other. When the DM brings in that much optimisation, the players usually receive the short end of the stick.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-19, 11:06 PM
Instead of spending resources specifically to boost AC, try casting (or emulating) spells and taking feats that make the fighter literally unable to reach him to hit, along with spells that incidentally boost armor class.

Persistent greater blink + greater mirror image stack with a Persistent shapechange (for incorporeal forms). Persistent shapechange should also be enough to grant colossal size (and it'll allow the cleric to also fight in smaller tunnels, and can be useful for getting a good Hide score prior to the first round, and for pulling out new tactics each round if the fighter proves adept at resisting previous tactics.

Use Extend Spell on your Persisted spells to halve the number of spell slots you use per day, or to double the number of buffs you have up at any given time. Rods or a feat; it's your choice.

Shadow evocation and shadow conjuration (if you can get them), or the greater/anyspell spells (from the Spells domain) should be able to emulate most any buff you want outside your spell list, without spending GP or XP. Nab any 7th level sorcerer/wizard spell or below you want, without having to expend 9th level slots to do so.

Make sure you get some Contingent Spells in there, to go off if you need them. Contingency wouldn't be amiss, either.

Nabbing a familiar or an animal companion will allow you to double-up on your combat abilities, since you can share Persistent buffs on it, as well.

Go dig through any of the spell lists for wizards, sorcerers, druids, wu jen, etc, and see what appeals to you. Given the right spells in your repertoire, you can cast them all.

Also, fully-charged rods of absorption will allow you to cast multiple spells without actually expending slots. Excellent if something gets dispelled.

Also also, crafting is your friend. You can get 2-3x the gear that the fighter can. Just choose your feats carefully (especially nice if you have a spell that can rebuild your character, similar to psychic reformation).

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 11:12 PM
Umm... I never said that. That was Oslecamo again...

The board's quote function works in a weird fashion. It seems to count the posts from the top or something...I'll have to figure out how to make it work. Basically, I copy-pasted the post address for the second part and instead it somehow jumped to the next post. Bah, go figure. I've also noticed that quotes automatically change when the original post is edited. Bleh, not making sense out of any of this.