Ambidexterity for 3.5 [Feat]

[Lord Iames Osari]

Revisions here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=homebrew;action=display;num=11577290 05;start=15#24).

Ambidexterity [General]
You are ambidextrous; you can use both hands equally well.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, only at 1st level.
Benefit: When fighting with two weapons, you have no off-hand. You take a -6 penalty on all attack rolls made while fighting with two weapons. If one of your weapons is light or if you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls made while fighting with two weapons. If one of your weapons is light and you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls made while fighting with two weapons.
Special: The effects of this feat override the normal effects of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

[Fax Celestis]

I...Hm. That does many remarkable things to TWF.

[Lord Iames Osari]

How... cryptic.. vague... non-communicative, even.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm pondering.

[Matthew]

That's a pretty powerful Feat.

[Lord Iames Osari]

That's a pretty powerful Feat.

Yes, it is. I originally was thinking about it reducing the attack roll penalties for TWF by 2, like it did in 3.0, and allowing full Str bonus to damage on the off-hand weapon. But this was simpler. And the fact that you can only take it at first level is a somewhat mitigating factor.

Edit - Not anymore...

[Cybren]

what about... having an off hand when you're only wielding one weapon?

[xzanar]

Its very rare that someone can use his/her both hands equally well but after allowing this, I guess that almost every TWF user can do so, which somehow is just "weird".

[Lord Iames Osari]

what about... having an off hand when you're only wielding one weapon?
When you're only wielding one weapon, you are:
[1] Fighting two-handed.
[2] Fighting sword-and-board.
[3] Fighting one-handed and using your other hand to cast spells.
[4] Fighting with a ranged weapon that requires two hand to use.
Of those situations, the only time that your off-hand will matter is if you're fighting sword-and-board and decide to use a shield bash, in which case you are fighting with two weapons anyway.


Its very rare that someone can use his/her both hands equally well but after allowing this, I guess that almost every TWF user can do so, which somehow is just "weird".

Then feel free to disallow it in your games.

[Azrael]

So you're trying to get rid of that 1/2 str do damage from the offhand, right?

Ok. Probably best done as a 1st level only feat. Probably still a little strong.

The problem becomes that you now have a problem with the TWF penalties -- if there is no offhand, your offhand weapon can't be light... so do you now need one of your two weapons to be light? Or neither? 1st case, you need to say so. 2nd case makes this feat ZOMG broken.

[Matthew]

How does it affect Two Handed Weapons? Surely, if both hands provide equal Strength Bonus, you should be able to apply 2 times your Strength Bonus to Damage?

i.e.

Primary Hand = 1.0 Stength Bonus
Off Hand = 0.5 Strength Bonus
Two Hands = 1.5 Strength Bonus (or Primary Hand + Off Hand)

Just a thought...

[Lord Iames Osari]

How does it affect Two Handed Weapons?　Surely, if both hands provide equal Strength Bonus, you should be able to apply 2 times your Strength Bonus to Damage?

i.e.

Primary Hand = 1.0 Stength Bonus
Off Hand = 0.5 Strength Bonus
Two Hands = 1.5 Strength Bonus (or Primary Hand + Off Hand)

Just a thought...



It doesn't affect THF at all. It specifically applies to TWF, and TWF only.


So you're trying to get rid of that 1/2 str do damage from the offhand, right?

Ok. Probably best done as a 1st level only feat. Probably still a little strong.

The problem becomes that you now have a problem with the TWF penalties -- if there is no offhand, your offhand weapon can't be light... so do you now need one of your two weapons to be light? Or neither? 1st case, you need to say so. 2nd case makes this feat ZOMG broken.
Taken care of.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Its very rare that someone can use his/her both hands equally well but after allowing this, I guess that almost every TWF user can do so, which somehow is just "weird".

Think about it this way, if an ambidexterous person takes up the role of a fighter (or whatever warrior) then TWF makes a lot of sense for them, right?

I'd say the first level only thing is a good mitigating factor, i think the version right now, need one light for the bonuses make it fine, TWF need a boost anyway

[Azrael]

As a continuation of my original thought -- If all you are going for is better off-hand damage state it this way:


Ambidexterity [General]

You are ambidextrous; you can use both hands equally well.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, only at 1st level.
Benefit: When fighting with two weapons, your offhand is no longer limited to adding 1/2 of your strength modifier to damage, you may add the full modifier.

It's way less complex.

[Matthew]

Don't forget to negate / reduce the -4 Penalty to AB for attacking with your Left Hand / Off Hand, under non Two Weapon Fighting conditions, Azrael (unless you want to, of course).

[Lord Iames Osari]

As a continuation of my original thought -- If all you are going for is better off-hand damage state it this way:


Ambidexterity [General]

You are ambidextrous; you can use both hands equally well.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, only at 1st level.
Benefit: When fighting with two weapons, your offhand is no longer limited to adding 1/2 of your strength modifier to damage, you may add the full modifier.

It's way less complex.

It is less complex, but it's also less than complete in terms of representing what ambidexterity is.

[LordOfNarf]

When you're only wielding one weapon, you are:
[1] Fighting two-handed.
[2] Fighting sword-and-board.
[3] Fighting one-handed and using your other hand to cast spells.
[4] Fighting with a ranged weapon that requires two hand to use.
Of those situations, the only time that your off-hand will matter is if you're fighting sword-and-board and decide to use a shield bash, in which case you are fighting with two weapons anyway.

or:
[5] Your On hand had been horridly mangeld, and you need to weild your weapon in your off hand

Any creative DM will find a way to do this to a player at aleast once.

[Cybren]

When you're only wielding one weapon, you are:
[1] Fighting two-handed.
[2] Fighting sword-and-board.
[3] Fighting one-handed and using your other hand to cast spells.
[4] Fighting with a ranged weapon that requires two hand to use.
Of those situations, the only time that your off-hand will matter is if you're fighting sword-and-board and decide to use a shield bash, in which case you are fighting with two weapons anyway.


Then feel free to disallow it in your games.
Or you're Inigo Montoya!
Aha! I am not left handed!

[NullAshton]

Why not reduce the penalties for the main hand attack? Two weapon fighting already gives you tht bonus... two-weapon fighting feat and offhand weapon is light already gives you a -2 to each attack roll. This... does the same, except you can declare which hand is offhand on the fly.

EDIT: Reducing the "main hand" penalties by 2 when you're dualwielding is effectively the same as weapon focus.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Or you're Inigo Montoya!
Aha! I am not left handed!

or the Dread Pirate Roberts (Westly edition)

[kanachi]

My problem with Ambidexterity was always that being truely "Ambidextus" is something your born with, not something you can learn. Learning to use both your hands effectivly is what TWF is for. Being born Ambidextus should be a template that offers not only these bonuses but a +5 bonus to slight of hand checks and a +1 level addjustment.

Thats how i would play it anyway.

[Lord Iames Osari]

There's a reason This version requires a 17 Dex and that you take the feat at 1st level.

[Matthew]

EDIT: Reducing the "main hand" penalties by 2 when you're dualwielding is effectively the same as weapon focus.

How so?


My problem with Ambidexterity was always that being truely "Ambidextus" is something your born with, not something you can learn. Learning to use both your hands effectivly is what TWF is for. Being born Ambidextus should be a template that offers not only these bonuses but a +5 bonus to slight of hand checks and a +1 level addjustment.

Thats how i would play it anyway.

Interesting, but it that doesn't really deal with the core problem, which are the Two Weapon Fighting rules in general [i.e. how they effect Off Hand Damage and Attack Bonuses, how you define Off Hand and how it relates to Two Handed Fighting, amongst other things].

[kanachi]

There's a reason This version requires a 17 Dex and that you take the feat at 1st level.

thats as maybe, but it still does not change the fact that this is something a character is born with, its not a feat no matter how you pose the requirements.

this template would then remove the need to have an off-hand as you dont actually have one (so you would probably have no penalty for using 2 light weapons). using 1 non-light weapon could offer a -1 penalty to attacks with both weapons and using 2 non-light weapons a -2 to attacks with both weapons... but it would deffonatly have a lvl adjustment of +1 maybe even +2.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Ambidexterity [General]
You are ambidextrous; you can use both hands equally well.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, only at 1st level.
Benefit: You have no off-hand. Put another way, you have two primary hands. When fighting with two weapons, reduce your attack penalties by 2 for each light weapon you are wielding.
Normal: You have one primary hand and one off-hand.

How's that, kanachi? I fail to see how being able to use both hands equally well makes you able to use both hands better, so no Sleight of Hand bonus.

Multidexterity [General]
You are multidextrous; you can use all of your hands equally well.
Prerequisites: Dex 19, only at 1st level, at least 3 arms.
Benefit: You have no off-hand. Put another way, all of your hands are primary hands. When fighting with two weapons, reduce your attack penalties by 2 for each light weapon you are wielding. This reduction in penalties can never grant you a bonus on your attack roll.
Normal: You have one primary hand and multiple off-hands.

Hmmm....

Twin Threat [General]
You have honed your natural ambidexterity to the point where you can fight with two one-handed weapons.
Prerequisites: BAB +8, Str 15, Dex 19, Ambidexterity, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You can fight with two one-handed weapons at the same time; both of them count as a light weapons for the purpose of determining your attack penalty.
Special: You cannot apply Power Attack to either one-handed weapon while you are fighting with two one-handed weapons.

Multiple Threat [General]
You have honed your natural multidexterity to the point where you can fight with multiple one-handed weapons.
Prerequisites: BAB +8, Str 15, Dex 21, Multidexterity, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You can fight with as many one-handed weapons as you have hands at the same time; two of them count as a light weapons for the purpose of determining your attack penalty.
Special: You cannot apply Power Attack to any one-handed weapon while fighting with multiple one-handed weapons.

[Pegasos989]

I don't think there is reason for it to be first level only.

Possible reasons:

-Logic
Amibidexterity is something you are born with? I disagree here. My father, for example, was right handed untill university in which he had a bet against some of his friends that he could learn to use his left hand just as well in 2 months. Well, he lost it as the time ran out. Anyways, he still trained it just to prove that he could and now his handwriting is actually better with his leftie. Having 2 good hands is definitely something you can learn.

-Balance
I don't think of this as much of a problem. I think that people on the forums commonly think
TWF < THF < Casters
so giving the underdog a powerboost wouldn't propably break the game?

EDIT: Edited <'s...

[kanachi]

You seem convinced to have this ability as a feat so I won’t continually tell you to do otherwise after this post. Anyway, I think what you have is fine for addressing how being ambidextrous would effect an individuals combat abilities with to weapons and while your mechanics do make it a very potent feat I think anyone would have a hard time fighting your logic its logic (if you insistent on presented this as a feat). If this really is how you want it handled then I would say that this is indeed probably the best way to do it and you should probably ignore the rest of this post.

Still reading huh? Ok well let me see if I can point you in another direction…

You seem to be forgetting what being ambidextrous really means and that its effects go far beyond simply wielding two weapons at once. What about wielding a shield or a buckler for example? Logic could easily dictate that an ambidextrous person would be more coordinated in their actions when using a shield and weapon combo after all (+1 shield bonus?)

Also lets look at skills for a moment… being ambidextrous is after all something that in life will probably effect your skills far more than you give it credit for. An ambidextrous person has a greater control of both their hands and thus should be able to better at say… fooling someone when dealing cards for example (slight of hand bonus?).

Picking locks or disarming intricate traps are other areas where being ambidextrous would surely offer a bonus, I shouldn’t really need to explain why.

Finally picking a pocket or even operating a complex item in a manor that requires controlled movements of both your hands could even be considered an area where an ambidextrous person would be naturally superior to an average person. You could even take this as far as offering a bonus to fastening or unravelling complex knots (though this may well be pushing it a little, lol).

My point is being ambidextrous means so many things, its like being freakily double jointed in a number of location upon your body - its effects cant simply be explained away with a single feat. Its something your born with, an inherent and very rare ability that surely has to be recognised as a template.

So in summation…

Could you include all these bonuses within a single feat - offering what I see as necessary flavour while keeping some sense of balance? No

Could you do all this as a template? Yes

The path forward therefore seems more than clear to me…

Hope this helps :) and thanks for trying to bring this back into the game (I’m very sorry if my writing seems a bit arsy, that’s not my intention - I’m just trying to explain my point of view!)

[kanachi]

I don't think there is reason for it to be first level only.

Possible reasons:

-Logic
Amibidexterity is something you are born with? I disagree here. My father, for example, was right handed untill university in which he had a bet against some of his friends that he could learn to use his left hand just as well in 2 months. Well, he lost it as the time ran out. Anyways, he still trained it just to prove that he could and now his handwriting is actually better with his leftie. Having 2 good hands is definitely something you can learn.

-Balance
I don't think of this as much of a problem. I think that people on the forums commonly think
TWF > THF > Casters
so giving the underdog a powerboost wouldn't propably break the game?

This is very much similar to something my sister did (she’s left handed but trained herself to perform a number of skills with her right). Your missing the point however, a truly ambidextrous person needs no training to do these things for any skill.

They are simply ably to naturally pick up any skill and perform it with equal ability regardless of which hand they opt to use... truly ambidextrous people are EXTREMELY rare it’s not something you can simply learn. The kind of self taught ambidextrous ability I think your talking about here is what TWF already represents (if its not please explain to me what it is suposed to represent?). It’s not to be confused with being truly and naturally ambidextrous.

Also a lot of people claim to be ambidextrous because they can do a number of things with their off-hand rather well... once again is not what being truly and naturally ambidextrous is all about.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Peg, you got your <'s backwards.

[kanachi]

hehe yup, the day my TWFer does not end up resembleing something close to a sureal meat sculpure when pitted against a caster is the day the word balance may actually mean something ;D

[Pegasos989]

The kind of self taught ambidextrous ability I think your talking about here is what TWF already represents (if its not please explain to me what it is suposed to represent?).


Well, I think:
Ambidexterous can use his rapier just as well, whether it is in his right or left hand.
TWFer can use his rapiers (nearly) as well, whether there is one or two

Okay, rapier was bad example as you need oversized TWF for it, but you catch the idea.
I think that ambidexterous shows that both your hands are as good and TWF shows that when you have 2 weapons, fighting with one does not interfere with another.

If my father used 2 shortswords, each would certainly be not to it's full effect (well, being about commoner 3 or so at most, he is not good with swords) cause it is just harder to do double the amount of attacks in the same time, whether using off-hand or not.


But well, these interprations are matter of opinion so there is no "right" ones but that is how I see it.

[kanachi]

I agree to a point but I just think that if you were to make ambidextrous into a template you could represent it far better than as a feat. A feat can only ever really cover one aspect of the genetic bonuses you would have through being ambidextrous otherwise it would become far to over powered.

As I’ve previously said being ambidextrous is something that should offer a number of small bonuses to all kinds of skills, checks and possibly even shield use not just TWFing.

Therefore I would combine a number of small +2 competency bonuses to a select few skill checks, a possible +1 shield bonus when using a shield and a bonus to TWF (which you would get as a bonus feat) into a single template. This template would incur a level adjustment of +1. This basically represents you being an extraordinary genetic specimen of your race (which being truly ambidextrous is).

This keeps all the flavour and helps balence things out 8)

[Eighth_Seraph]

I definitely see your point, Kanachi, but in my experience that will not always be the case. Your primary hand is not going to be better at everything (something which you apparently realize), and your offhand will have something in advantage to it. Assuming your offhand is your shield hand, then it will be your offhand that is the better shield hand, and so someone who is naturally ambidextrous will not necessarily be better at using a shield, as it is still one hand using it. However, the ability to be doing the same activity simoultaneously and independently with each hand just as well would most definitely point towards ambidextry. When I spar,
i block much better with my left hand despite the fact that I'm right-handed because I built up the reflexes to block with my left hand. If I were ambidextrous, then both hands would be equally good at attacking and defending, especially if you done simoultaneously; when compared to the average person. It'd be far too difficult to encompas this in all its form as a feat, and far too bland to make it a template, so I think that simplicity here works best.

[paddyfool]

You people might find this interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dominance

One thing that's worth noting is that none of the sports applications feature an improvement on doing things with two hands simultaneously; rather, they relate to the ability to do things just as well on one side as on the other. Unfortunately, this would suggest a very different "real life" utility value in this trait to a bonus to TWF.