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View Full Version : 4e- Playing Shadar-kai (and more!)



Asbestos
2009-02-16, 12:44 AM
The Shadar-Kai get some seeeerious love in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090216a)article, more so than any other monster race yet statted out. They have some incredibly sweet feats. Like 'Devious Jaunt' that allows them to add their Int modifier to the distance they jump with their racial power.
One feat, 'Reaper's Touch' doesn't have Shadar-kai as a prerequisite, which is odd and I wonder if its a typo. Reaper's Touch allows all those abilities for ranged casters that say 'can count as a ranged basic attack' to count as melee basic attacks too. I'm tempted to have my wizard charge someone with a magic missile.
Rogues/tempest fighters/beastmaster rangers might want to take a look at this for the 'Spiked Chain Mastery' feat, its a multiclass feat, like the weapon feats from the gladiator article, and lets the spiked chain count as a 2d4/2d4 double-weapon and a light blade, oh and off-hand too. There are also some power swap feats for it, so your 6th level utility can be replaced with a daily utility that allows you to enter a stance that lets you threaten all squares within reach so long as you have your spiked chain out. Awesome.

RTGoodman
2009-02-16, 01:57 AM
Ooh, nice. I don't even particularly like Shadar-Kai, but there's some neat stuff for them in there. And I REALLY like the Spiked Chain stuff (and would like to do a Spiked Chain TWF Ranger now), but I don't like that both attack powers are Dex vs. whatever - I think they should have made it "Strength vs [Defense] or Dexterity vs. [Defense]."

Also, since we're discussing "and more!" here, what do you think about the new Paragon Paths from the Masters of the Planes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090209b) article? To me, Storm Sovereign, Ruler of Winter, and Punisher of the Gods seem okay, Keybearer and Darklord seem really cool, and Planeshaper and Prince of Hell are both FREAKIN' SWEET.

Finally, in case anyone's interested (and I know people are), there's a new Primal Power Playtest (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090216b) article out, which features Druids summoning allied beasts. It has the new Summoning mechanic (spoiler elsewhere but officially appearing in PHB2), and ALSO has a full compliment of Druid daily powers from 1st to 29th level that let you summon everything from a Giant Toad to a Storm Behemoth or Elder Pack Wolf. It further OFFICIALLY gives use the names of all the Primal classes (Barbarian, Druid, Shaman, and Warden), which I can't remember whether or not we've seen yet, and also introduces [Tribal] feats, which give you a small bonus that increases for every other ally with that feat within a certain distance. +5 to initiative for everyone as long as everyone in the party takes a single feat (Tribe of the Swift Jaguar)? Yes, please!

Gralamin
2009-02-16, 02:16 AM
Shadar-Kai Chainwielding rogues are now the norm for Rogue builds. Seriously. There is a feat lets you treat them as double-weapons and light blades! Combine that with some of the Shadar-Kai feats, keep taking Chain mastery, and go into the first paragon path and you will destroy many enemies.
For extra fun, make it a Dhaympr as well. Anything you bloody and any bloodied living... humanoids I think, give you CA.

NPCMook
2009-02-16, 02:38 AM
Some of the feats make Shadar-Kai way better than the other races. Where's my Elemental Beast Mastery feat!?(For Genasi)

I think they should have let someone who actually worked on the PHB, not the DMG and MM give them the write-up

Inyssius Tor
2009-02-16, 02:45 AM
Also, since we're discussing "and more!" here, what do you think about the new Paragon Paths from the Masters of the Planes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090209b) article? To me, Storm Sovereign, Ruler of Winter, and Punisher of the Gods seem okay, Keybearer and Darklord seem really cool, and Planeshaper and Prince of Hell are both FREAKIN' SWEET.

SO cool. Note that the Punisher is essentially the Avenger Epic Destiny; its fluff is a far more natural extension of the Avenger concept than the Archmage's is of the Wizard concept, and the mechanics synergise so obviously well that I don't need to go into any more detail.

(Don't know about the Avenger? Google it. The acronym "DDXP" will help you in your quest.)


It has the new Summoning mechanic (spoiler elsewhere but officially appearing in PHB2), and ALSO has a full compliment of Druid daily powers from 1st to 29th level that let you summon everything from a Giant Toad to a Storm Behemoth or Elder Pack Wolf. It further OFFICIALLY gives use the names of all the Primal classes (Barbarian, Druid, Shaman, and Warden), which I can't remember whether or not we've seen yet,

The Summoning keyword, by the way, has now been explained in no less than three (and I think no less than five) articles on DDI.

There are a ridiculous amount of these powers. Between two and four summoning dailies for every daily and utility slot the Druid has?! Whoa.

We already officially knew the names of all the primal classes. In fact, for the last two full weeks now, we've had (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20081006) all of the (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090105) primal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20081201a) classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090202).

RTGoodman
2009-02-16, 03:01 AM
Some of the feats make Shadar-Kai way better than the other races. Where's my Elemental Beast Mastery feat!?(For Genasi)

Well, there're already other Beast feats in MP that give it various other "subtypes" - Fey if you're Eladrin, something if you're dragonborn, I think, and I'm betting that, at SOME point, there'll be one for Genasi, too.


Shadar-Kai Chainwielding rogues are now the norm for Rogue builds. Seriously. There is a feat lets you treat them as double-weapons and light blades! Combine that with some of the Shadar-Kai feats, keep taking Chain mastery, and go into the first paragon path and you will destroy many enemies.
For extra fun, make it a Dhaympr as well. Anything you bloody and any bloodied living... humanoids I think, give you CA.

That's... probably true. I'm working on a level 10 Spiked Chain Shadar-Kai Rogue right now to see how it goes, but I probably won't finish tonight.



SO cool. Note that the Punisher is essentially the Avenger Epic Destiny; its fluff is a far more natural extension of the Avenger concept than the Archmage's is of the Wizard concept, and the mechanics synergise so obviously well that I don't need to go into any more detail.

That's probably what they had in mind. I know I've seen a lot of Avenger stuff floating around the net for the last week or two or so, but I haven't paid much attention to it. They Half-Orc sample character from DDXP was the Avenger, though, right?




The Summoning keyword, by the way, has now been explained in no less than three (and I think no less than five) articles on DDI.

We already officially knew the names of all the primal classes. In fact, for the last two full weeks now, we've had (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20081006) all of the (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090105) primal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20081201a) classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090202).

Eh, I haven't followed all the articles, so this is only the second time I've seen the Summoning keyword explained. I don't remember the other time. I HADN'T seen the Shaman preview though, I don't think, so thanks for linking it.

Asbestos
2009-02-16, 08:05 AM
Shadar-Kai Chainwielding rogues are now the norm for Rogue builds. Seriously. There is a feat lets you treat them as double-weapons and light blades! Combine that with some of the Shadar-Kai feats, keep taking Chain mastery, and go into the first paragon path and you will destroy many enemies.
For extra fun, make it a Dhaympr as well. Anything you bloody and any bloodied living... humanoids I think, give you CA.

Don't see why you couldn't have a Drow or Bugbear Chainwielding rogue, sure, they won't get the 'Expert Chainfighter' feat, but they'll have better rogue stats (and the Bugbear will have a large spiked chain no less, and that crazy racial power) I think they gave the Shadar-kai a lot of feat love because their stats don't lend themselves to optimization for a lot of classes. Stat-wise, they probably lend themselves to Wand Wizards the most, so it probably isn't that big a deal to throw them a bone. I don't think the feats make Shadar-kai 'way better' than the other races, the only thing that really jumped out at me was the ability to add their Int modifier to the distance they Shadow Jaunt. Eldarin are probably the best race to compare them against since the two races are so similar in terms of stats and racial ability. The Eldarin acquired some significant feats in Martial Power that really boosted them up a bit, so I don't see why the Shadar-kai shouldn't be on par. Which they aren't, because the Eldarin still have a lot going for them.

As for the Planar Epic Destinies... Awesome. Who doesn't want to be a Duke of Hell?

Should we also mention the Bane article? Really makes me want to roll up an Evil Paladin or Cleric (sadly my group doesn't allow 'Evil' PCs, but since we're past 1st level, I could easily make them Unaligned... and play them as hardass LN)

Kurald Galain
2009-02-16, 12:40 PM
"However, leaving the feats as a simple, expanding bonus misses the role they play in expressing the deep bonds of unity they represent ... When you take these feats, look beyond their mechanical benefits."

Does it strike anyone else as silly that WOTC offers mechanical benefits to forming a team, while in the same breath saying people shouldn't form a team for the mechanical benefit?

RTGoodman
2009-02-16, 12:43 PM
Should we also mention the Bane article? Really makes me want to roll up an Evil Paladin or Cleric (sadly my group doesn't allow 'Evil' PCs, but since we're past 1st level, I could easily make them Unaligned... and play them as hardass LN)

Yeah, that was actually a REALLY cool article, so I hope they keep doing those for the Evil gods. One thing about 4E, of course, is that your alignment doesn't HAVE to even come close to matching that of your deity. You could be a Lawful Good Paladin of Bane that just focuses on the Order, Civilization, and other Lawful aspects of his dogma, but ignore he more Evil parts. I think the article even talks about that somewhere, and gives ideas about how different characters could worship Bane without being totally Evil.

Asbestos
2009-02-16, 01:00 PM
"However, leaving the feats as a simple, expanding bonus misses the role they play in expressing the deep bonds of unity they represent ... When you take these feats, look beyond their mechanical benefits."

Does it strike anyone else as silly that WOTC offers mechanical benefits to forming a team, while in the same breath saying people shouldn't form a team for the mechanical benefit?

Well, it says not *just* the mechanical benefits. Anyway, a lot of them are sort of altruistic feats since while the cleric won't benefit from the Stealth boost if the whole party has the tribal feat, but the Rogue/Ranger will love it.

Gralamin
2009-02-16, 01:19 PM
Don't see why you couldn't have a Drow or Bugbear Chainwielding rogue, sure, they won't get the 'Expert Chainfighter' feat, but they'll have better rogue stats (and the Bugbear will have a large spiked chain no less, and that crazy racial power) I think they gave the Shadar-kai a lot of feat love because their stats don't lend themselves to optimization for a lot of classes. Stat-wise, they probably lend themselves to Wand Wizards the most, so it probably isn't that big a deal to throw them a bone. I don't think the feats make Shadar-kai 'way better' than the other races, the only thing that really jumped out at me was the ability to add their Int modifier to the distance they Shadow Jaunt. Eldarin are probably the best race to compare them against since the two races are so similar in terms of stats and racial ability. The Eldarin acquired some significant feats in Martial Power that really boosted them up a bit, so I don't see why the Shadar-kai shouldn't be on par. Which they aren't, because the Eldarin still have a lot going for them.
Expert Chainfighter is only part of it. The first Paragon Path in the article, Abiding Reaper, is Shadar-Kai only and is a very very powerful Prestige Class for a rogue. Combine that with say Raven Consort Epic Destiny, and you have a rogue that is using a spiked chain, getting CA against stuff it bloodies, and being stupidly hard to kill.

Which reminds me, Raven Consort - Cycle of Life = :smalleek:

RTGoodman
2009-02-16, 01:25 PM
Hey, is anyone else having trouble getting to anything on the WotC website today? I can't get to anything, like the connection is timing out or something all the time.

Inyssius Tor
2009-02-16, 02:01 PM
Hey, is anyone else having trouble getting to anything on the WotC website today? I can't get to anything, like the connection is timing out or something all the time.

I was having trouble about an hour ago, almost as bad as trying to access these forums.

I find it awfully funny that GITP timed out while I was trying to post this reply, by the way.

NPCMook
2009-02-16, 02:22 PM
If no one caught the Digital insider last week they are going to be putting out a playtest of the Monk next month, yay. Apparently we will be getting some of the Ki powered Heroes next year in PHB 3.

RTGoodman
2009-02-16, 03:38 PM
I was having trouble about an hour ago, almost as bad as trying to access these forums.

I find it awfully funny that GITP timed out while I was trying to post this reply, by the way.

Heh, yeah, that was the comparison I made in my mind, but I didn't want to jinx it since I wasn't actually having trouble here earlier. Either way, both sites seem to be working for me now.


Anyway, I built that level 10 Shadar-Kai Rogue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=109070) focusing on Spiked Chain, and even if it's not the most optimized build, it still seems pretty good. With reach and stuff (especially that stance from the article), you could make a pretty good Martial Controller if you picked the right feats and powers. I don't know if I'll get a chance to use the character ever, but it seems like it'd be pretty fun.

Also, who knew the Spiked Chain had a +3 proficiency bonus? Certainly not I...


@NPCMook: That's pretty exciting. Do you know if it's just a preview or if it's an actual Playtest article?

Inyssius Tor
2009-02-16, 04:18 PM
@NPCMook: That's pretty exciting. Do you know if it's just a preview or if it's an actual Playtest article?

It's a playtest. Pretty cool, but of course this is a big opportunity to fail. Everyone has different ideas of what the monk should be, and what Ki should be--and even if they can find a very specific design philosophy for the class and power source, there's still a lot of room for failure.

Mando Knight
2009-02-16, 05:08 PM
A few months ago I was at an LFR session, and one of the players was using a Shadar-kai Rogue/Chain-fighter... as a houserule, with the justification that there's a Shadar-kai in the MM that uses a spiked chain, and that it was silly that there wasn't any real options for not-light-blade-using Rogues. (MP wasn't out at the time, I don't think...)

It wasn't broken then, so even without DDI, I give any efforts to allow that build by RAW my approval...

RTGoodman
2009-02-16, 07:51 PM
I just read through the D&DI article (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20090211) by Bill Slavicsek, and it turns out the Monk DOESN'T actually come out. The plan for the next few months is:


In March, look for the assassin! In the tradition of the gladiator article we'll feature feats, backgrounds, and paragon paths devoted to the fine art of the assassin.

In April, we provide a bag of holding full of new familiars for arcane characters.

In May, come aboard to help playtest a class from Player’s Handbook 3… the monk!

So we've got a little while before then, but hey - we get to see some cool assassin stuff next month!


And, of course, we got a new preview today of Racial Paragon Paths (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090216). They sound like they're trying to make it sound like these are new and hip, but really, we've already sort of had these in Martial Power (and probably other sources) anyway, as well as in 3.x. The sample, the human paragon Adroit Explorer, has some cool mechanical things, but otherwise seems pretty boring. Thoughts?