How do you sell your soul in D&D, anyway?

[Eerie]

Are there any rules for that? And what happens, someone gains control over you actions? Or just damnation?

[Bayar]

There are probably rules in Book of vile Darkness or Fiendish codex or something.

You would probably be required to take a feat or something. Because damnation of one's soul is serious business.

[Heliomance]

I believe the Pact Insidious and the Pact Certain are in the Fiendish Codex.

[Dixieboy]

You don't immediately sell it, you just give them the rights to your soul which they use once you die :smalleek:

[Snake-Aes]

You don't immediately sell it, you just give them the rights to your soul which they use once you die :smalleek:

Which, of course, they have no problem with hastening at all.

[TheSummoner]

Which, of course, they have no problem with hastening at all.

Would you be able to negotiate as part of the soul selling agreement that they can't so that?

[Raenir Salazar]

yes. Personally ild prefer to negotiate for when I do "die" (in d&d) to make the straight shift to pit fiend and keep memories and personality. That accomplishes the same as a bunch of lowly imps wouldnt want to kill you prematurily if theres a chance itll bite them in the literal ass later.

[magic9mushroom]

yes. Personally ild prefer to negotiate for when I do "die" (in d&d) to make the straight shift to pit fiend and keep memories and personality. That accomplishes the same as a bunch of lowly imps wouldnt want to kill you prematurily if theres a chance itll bite them in the literal ass later.

You can't. What would the devils gain from that?

@OP:

Ok, basically what happens is this. You talk to a devil, usually a harvester devil, and they give you a contract to sign, with rewards stated, and the clause that your soul goes to Baator upon your death. Signing such a pact immediately makes you turn lawful evil, which ensures that you end up in Baator. Once you go into Baator, which will probably be hastened, you get tortured to extract power until you have no identity left, and are then converted into a lemure. Rewards offered include XP, gold, feats, etc.

[mistformsquirrl]

Stupid question; but since I usually play a goody-two-shoes type in D&D... I'm wondering...

If you sold your soul; could you then turn yourself into a Lich and make it extremely difficult for it for the devils to collect on it?

Or would they be able to just yank it out of your phylactery?

[Optimystik]

Stupid question; but since I usually play a goody-two-shoes type in D&D... I'm wondering...

If you sold your soul; could you then turn yourself into a Lich and make it extremely difficult for it for the devils to collect on it?

Or would they be able to just yank it out of your phylactery?

No, they'd have to kill you and destroy the phylactery first. A fine plan if you don't mind looking over your skeletal shoulder for eternity.

You'd probably be more valuable to them (for a time, at least) as a lich on the material plane anyway, for the same reason that V is a better "investment" than Kubota.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I always figured that it equated to giving the DM full reign to make up whatever they wanted.

[Mina Kobold]

Well the Lemure thing sound right. But aint this what Warlocs do?

[Ozymandias9]

As Heliomance said, there are 2 pacts available to mortals of non-LE alignment.

The Pact Certain directly selling your soul. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. The mortal's soul cannot be redeemed by any means while the pact is in effect, and the pact cannot be broken in 3 circumstances:

The devil is prevented from executing his part of the pact
The devil willingly absolves the pact, usually because another person sold their soul to get them to do so
The pact was made under duress (the devil holding another's soul bought through a pact doesn't qualify as duress, even though threat to a third party usually does)


The Pact Insidious is trading future favors instead of outright selling your soul. The favors are designed to take the pact maker to the LE alignment, thus resulting in their soul going to whatever hell dimension the current setting uses. Failing to preform the favors resends the benefit of the pact for the pact maker and may have other costs. Absolution, mundane or magical, is possible but difficult: most pacts have a clause that prevents the pact maker from telling 3rd parties about the pact, and most settings require acknowledgment of an act to for absolution.

[Kaytara]

So if the devils collect your soul after you die... Does this mean that people damned by the pact can not be raised or resurrected?

[Optimystik]

So if the devils collect your soul after you die... Does this mean that people damned by the pact can not be raised or resurrected?

It depends on a number of factors, which means of course that it depends on the DM. The general answer is no - souls that reach Baator are extremely difficult to remove, and are for all intents and purposes treated as though soul bound. For good-aligned people that wish to save the damned souls of friends, they can offer theirs instead. This frees the first soul for resurrection, and sets the stage for their trial (which I mention below.)

For characters that wish to save themselves, they don't have long to act before they are shuffled off to the torture pens - once there, the character is effectively gone for eternity and must be retired. When you arrive in Baator, you can demand a review of the terms of your contract if you succeed on a DC 20 Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (The Planes) check BEFORE you are placed in the transportation carts.

If you succeed, there is a trial, in which your only defenses are the three that Ozymandias listed in his post. You either have an Erinyes or Bearded Devil as your defense attorney, or you can contact a friend on the Material Plane (who must find their own way down to Baator to assist you and only if they wish to.) Naturally, even good characters can deny your request without suffering an alignment change, and evil "friends" would usually and gladly tell you to shove off.

Even assuming one of the conditions exists, the prosecution (A devil's advocate) and your defense must each make three checks: the two Knowledge checks I mentioned above, and a Perform (acting) check. The side with the higher total wins. But winning the trial only frees your soul if your corruption score is less than 9 - if it is not, the only result is peals of diabolic laughter as your soul is sent to the torture pens anyway. This is due to the Pact Primeval superseding any Pacts Certain or Pacts Insidious you may have signed. A good person that has sacrificed their soul to save a damned friend is unlikely to have a high corruption score, and therefore this is their chance for both souls to escape. The number of opposed checks involved makes this chance extremely slim, but it exists.

Hope that answers your question :smallsmile:

[TheBST]

Question (from a non-player with only cursory knowledge): Could a Soul Bind spell throw a spanner in the works of a Faustian pact?

[Optimystik]

Question (from a non-player with only cursory knowledge): Could a Soul Bind spell throw a spanner in the works of a Faustian pact?

In that the soul would not go to Baator, yes. However, all the devils would then have to do is hire a mortal agent to steal the gem from whoever is carrying it, and summarily smash it. And since Soul Bind requires the target to be dead, the devils would most likely collect the soul as soon as it is freed.

Your window to Bind a damned friend is also extremely small - once he gets to Baator, that's all she wrote.

[TheSummoner]

I wonder, would it be possible in such a scenerio to solve your problems with violence?

[Ozymandias9]

The Pact Primeval does not prevent mortal acts from interfering with the lesser pacts execution, so the good aligned outsiders/gods wouldn't prevent you (but also couldn't aid you in the attempt). But doing so would be exceptionally difficult: one one would basically be storming the gates of hell: there are armies of devils down there and then to finish it off you'd basically have to kill whatever Archdevil the pact is signed to. That's generally a problem as they're only slightly short of Deity status.

Of course, if you're capable of doing even close to that and somehow still mortal enough not to be covered by the Pact Primeval, they might consider giving your friend's soul back just to have you not upset the order of Hell. They are after all, Lawful evil.

[TheSummoner]

Well, I would assume if you were going to attempt something like that, you sure as hell wouldn't be doing it solo.

I was imagining a large army or something...

[Snake-Aes]

Well, I would assume if you were going to attempt something like that, you sure as hell wouldn't be doing it solo.

I was imagining a large army or something...

<casts Widened Cloudkill>

[Kurald Galain]

Are there any rules for that? And what happens, someone gains control over you actions? Or just damnation?

IIRC, it nets you one feat, according to the BOED. Um, yay?

[Optimystik]

IIRC, it nets you one feat, according to the BOED. Um, yay?

Pact benefits have "ratings," scaled by the level of the signer. A Pact Certain typically has a single reward with a rating of 7, though skilled bargainers can achieve greater benefit. A Pact Insidious typically requires a number of seemingly innocuous tasks of the mortal in question, all of which confer rewards totalling a rating of 9. Naturally, the greater/more numerous the rewards, the greater the corruption rating of the soul.

A feat has a rating of 4, so with a skillful Pact Certain you can get up to two. Extra spell slots have a rating of 3 each. Attribute bonuses are 5 per +1 increase, and skill bonuses are 1 and 2 per +1 for class and cross-class skills, respectively. There are also XP and gold awards that scale with level.

[Drakron]

Well, I would assume if you were going to attempt something like that, you sure as hell wouldn't be doing it solo.

I was imagining a large army or something...

I think you missed the "storming the gates of hell","armies of devils" and "defeating a near-Deity on its home plane".

Not going to happen ... in fact bringing a army would be a liability as it would attract attention of all Arch-Devils and Deities that exist on the plane.

[Sigmund]

If you succeed, there is a trial, in which your only defenses are the three that Ozymandias listed in his post. You either have an Erinyes or Bearded Devil as your defense attorney,


And how much is the attorney fee? Maybe just *half* your soul?

[Amon Star]

Well the Lemure thing sound right. But aint this what Warlocs do?

Sometimes. They can also make deals with Demons, Fey or Far Realm Entities.
I wonder, would it be possible in such a scenerio to solve your problems with violence?

Only if you are so epic, why bother selling your soul in the first place.

[TheSummoner]

You sell your soul and LATER become powerful enough to use violence to solve your problems, duh :smallwink:

[Optimystik]

And how much is the attorney fee? Maybe just *half* your soul?

Getting devil representation is the extraplanar equivalent of a public defender, and is usually as effective. (Read: not at all.)


You sell your soul and LATER become powerful enough to use violence to solve your problems, duh :smallwink:

Selling your soul IS the problem. :smallbiggrin:

[Ozymandias9]

Well, I would assume if you were going to attempt something like that, you sure as hell wouldn't be doing it solo.

I was imagining a large army or something...

If you can field an army of epic level characters to besiege hell, you're probably running a bit of a high power campaign. Lvl 20 characters are generally presumed to be phenomenally rare.

[David Argall]

The idea of selling the soul is an example of shoving something popular into the game even if it doesn't properly fit. Since D&D has monks and other oriental stuff in a Western Europe setting, this can be said to be true to the spirit of the game, but it is not logically true.

The after-life alignments can be viewed as magnets, each attracting different things, and in various ways, these are part of your soul. Once dead, the power of one will be stronger and the soul goes in that direction, automatically, no matter what sort of deal has been made.
Now it should be noted that those making such deals are normally going to be doing things that make the point academic. And the other party generally has ways to enforce the deal. V here is now vulnerable to any threat against the kids, and if she gets any power from the deal, as seems likely, he would lose that too. So the deal may be just a piece of paper, but the result may be just the same.
The game also deals in exceptional circumstances. Souls in peril from such a deal clearly qualify as good stuff for adventures, and rescuing good souls from a hell is a good prospect too. But our CG soul that somehow ends up in a LE hell would be constantly pulled towards the CG heaven and would eventually end up there. The means might well be an adventuring party, but the selling of the soul should have no binding power.

[Eerie]

If you can field an army of epic level characters to besiege hell, you're probably running a bit of a high power campaign. Lvl 20 characters are generally presumed to be phenomenally rare.

Army of Pun-Puns...

[Surrealistik]

Army of Pun-Puns...

Haha, one is already infinite overkill.

That said, if Pun-Pun munchkinery is a part of the setting, why the pact in the first place? :P

[Silverraptor]

Hey guys, reading this gave me an idea and I want your honest opinion.

Say that you sell your soul to 2 different Archdemons in exchange for power from both of them. Do you think that either of these would be successful?

1) Use your new powers with both demons to kill them so you don't owe your soul to them.
or...
2) When you die and they come to collect, they bicker and argue and eventually fight over your soul.

Either way it would be greatly entertaining.:smallbiggrin: Any thoughts?

[Surrealistik]

Wouldn't work because your soul wouldn't be yours to offer after bartering it away the first time. However, prompting a bidding war could work to sweeten any Faustian bargain significantly! It's Economics 101; supply and demand.

[Optimystik]

The idea of selling the soul is an example of shoving something popular into the game even if it doesn't properly fit. Since D&D has monks and other oriental stuff in a Western Europe setting, this can be said to be true to the spirit of the game, but it is not logically true.

Logic? In my D&D?
It's more likely than you think :smalltongue:


The after-life alignments can be viewed as magnets, each attracting different things, and in various ways, these are part of your soul. Once dead, the power of one will be stronger and the soul goes in that direction, automatically, no matter what sort of deal has been made.

Not quite true - some acts are strong enough to override everything else you may have done in your life. In D&D, we see it via the signing of LE Pacts in Fiendish Codex 2, and here in the comic we see that just one evil act on Roy's part (abandoning Elan) was almost enough to consign him to the TN afterlife and override a lifetime of law and good (including his highly LG acts in OtOoPCs.) Likening the soul to a pile of iron filings fails to capture the nuance inherent in each moral decision.


The game also deals in exceptional circumstances. Souls in peril from such a deal clearly qualify as good stuff for adventures, and rescuing good souls from a hell is a good prospect too. But our CG soul that somehow ends up in a LE hell would be constantly pulled towards the CG heaven and would eventually end up there. The means might well be an adventuring party, but the selling of the soul should have no binding power.

Such a deterministic outcome is lacking in imagination. A CG soul trapped in hell doesn't have to end up in Arborea as a matter of course; it can be revived as a Hellbred,trapped in a gem and used to power a campaign-altering artifact or spell, become disaffected with its deity after enduring Baator's tortures and become CN, or even side with demons to escape and become CE. A good story incorporates options and vision, not magnets.

[Amon Star]

You sell your soul and LATER become powerful enough to use violence to solve your problems, duh :smallwink:

Most smart buyers won't let you get that far, however.

[hamishspence]

the Bind to Hell spell used by followers of Levistus traps a soul in hell permanently as a frozen statue unless it is found and released. So, its not that hard to trap non-LE souls.

[David Argall]

some acts are strong enough to override everything else you may have done in your life.
Obviously some rocks are bigger than others. That is a refinement, not a refutation. But the idea that a rock can be so big that it exceeds all others combined is highly suspect. Notably, we have the Atonement spell, which would negate any one act.


In D&D, we see it via the signing of LE Pacts in Fiendish Codex 2,
The further we get from the core books, the less D&D books are D&D, as opposed to simple ideas for the DM to use. Things like FC2 give only guidance, not binding rules. The DM who never buys it is still running a D&D game.



and here in the comic we see that just one evil act on Roy's part (abandoning Elan) was almost enough to consign him to the TN afterlife and override a lifetime of law and good (including his highly LG acts in OtOoPCs.)
This is rather obvious writer bias/error. Our author simply places an absurd value on loyalty to companions. Thus we have Roy rescuing Belkar and saying that is more important than good or law, a statement flatly wrong in a D&D world [not to mention in reality].




Likening the soul to a pile of iron filings fails to capture the nuance inherent in each moral decision.
Any analogy is likely to fail to capture the nuances. That does not make them useless, or less than highly useful.

[Optimystik]

Obviously some rocks are bigger than others. That is a refinement, not a refutation. But the idea that a rock can be so big that it exceeds all others combined is highly suspect. Notably, we have the Atonement spell, which would negate any one act.

How is absolution through magic any less suspect than corruption through a single willful deed? Some acts quite simply are Big Enough to permanently alter one's soul and/or its resting place, and it just so happens that selling your soul is one of them, both in D&D and real world faiths.


The further we get from the core books, the less D&D books are D&D, as opposed to simple ideas for the DM to use. Things like FC2 give only guidance, not binding rules. The DM who never buys it is still running a D&D game.


This is rather obvious writer bias/error. Our author simply places an absurd value on loyalty to companions. Thus we have Roy rescuing Belkar and saying that is more important than good or law, a statement flatly wrong in a D&D world [not to mention in reality].

You're contradicting yourself. In your first statement you say the DM's decisions on morality should trump supplemental material, yet in your second you question Rich's own views on morality ("absurd?" "writer bias/error?") despite him being the de facto DM of OotS-land. Which is correct?


Any analogy is likely to fail to capture the nuances. That does not make them useless, or less than highly useful.

But when it fails to apply to the situation you are attempting to use it for, then it does become "less than highly useful." Clearly Rich has decided that an act like abandoning Elan is enough to thoroughly change Roy's alignment. Whether we agree with it or not (and I do, though it seems you don't) is moot; the very nature of Rich's afterlife makes the 'magnet theory' not apply.

[Revanmal]

Hey guys, reading this gave me an idea and I want your honest opinion.

Say that you sell your soul to 2 different Archdemons in exchange for power from both of them. Do you think that either of these would be successful?

1) Use your new powers with both demons to kill them so you don't owe your soul to them.
or...
2) When you die and they come to collect, they bicker and argue and eventually fight over your soul.

Either way it would be greatly entertaining.:smallbiggrin: Any thoughts?

Entertaining, yes, though John Constantine did it first. And he got his cancer cured out of the deal. Still, if you could pull it off cleverly enough I'd allow it if only for the entertainment value.

[Volkov]

Are there any rules for that? And what happens, someone gains control over you actions? Or just damnation?

Sign a devils' faustian pack.

[Amon Star]

You're contradicting yourself. In your first statement you say the DM's decisions on morality should trump supplemental material, yet in your second you question Rich's own views on morality ("absurd?" "writer bias/error?") despite him being the de facto DM of OotS-land. Which is correct?



But when it fails to apply to the situation you are attempting to use it for, then it does become "less than highly useful." Clearly Rich has decided that an act like abandoning Elan is enough to thoroughly change Roy's alignment. Whether we agree with it or not (and I do, though it seems you don't) is moot; the very nature of Rich's afterlife makes the 'magnet theory' not apply.

Regarding the Elan incident. What stopped Roy from changing alignment was the fact he realized his mistake. As the angel pointed out, maintaining an alignment isn't easy for a mortal and few can do it 24/7. But the fact he keeps trying and makes up for any mistakes is the reason he made it through the Pearly Gates.

[snafu]

Say that you sell your soul to 2 different Archdemons in exchange for power from both of them. Do you think that either of these would be successful?

1) Use your new powers with both demons to kill them so you don't owe your soul to them.
or...
2) When you die and they come to collect, they bicker and argue and eventually fight over your soul.

Either way it would be greatly entertaining.:smallbiggrin: Any thoughts?

I'd say that's the sort of thing you'd only do if you were absolutely insane and completely desperate. As in, a third archdemon is cosmically angry at you because you tricked him into drinking holy water blessed long ago by St Patrick himself, and then glassed him in the face (in the process cheating him of a soul contract with a third party on which he'd come to collect), and he's just waiting for you to die and come downstairs so he can begin taking a very detailed revenge on you, and you've just found out you've got terminal cancer. Selling your soul to the other two might just save you from the first, and from both of the others as well, as long as the balance of power between the three is maintained...

I mean, yeah, OK, a safer bet might be to do something like... repent your sins and not go to hell. But then the comic ends and nobody wants that.

(Hellblazer, Dangerous Habits. Go and read it. Then get all the rest of Garth Ennis's run. You'll be glad you did.)

[Wardog]

Well, I would assume if you were going to attempt something like that, you sure as hell wouldn't be doing it solo.

I was imagining a large army or something...

Or a very, very large gun (http://www.doomworld.com/10years/doomcomic/comic.php?page=15).

Rip and tear!

[Trizap]

Are there any rules for that? And what happens, someone gains control over you actions? Or just damnation?

simple you hand it over, they give you whatever you want.

[Palliard]

But our CG soul that somehow ends up in a LE hell would be constantly pulled towards the CG heaven and would eventually end up there. The means might well be an adventuring party, but the selling of the soul should have no binding power.

It is the nature of people in prison that they are warped towards its ways. See the Stanford Prison Experiment as a practical example. A CG soul in LE hell would fairly quickly bend around to the LE way of doing things, regardless of its willfullness. You actually have a fairly short window to pull somebody out of a situation like that before they're irrevocably changed.

Which makes me all the more worried for V. He's smart, but he's up against professional con-men. :smalleek:

[Olo Demonsbane]

Please do not laugh at the following:

My halfling druid has sold his soul to Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzat, and is using mindblank to keep them from knowing about the other pacts.

Read that again

Halfling druid

Yeah.

He has promised to kill devils for them, and in exchange they will invest fiendish power in him after he dies, raising him as some kind of demon. He will probably be pretty powerful because of the number of demons he has killed. :smallbiggrin:

[Fargo1168]

My halfling druid has sold his soul to Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzat, and is using mindblank to keep them from knowing about the other pacts.


Wait, you tricked three gods using mindblank? Aren't gods, I don't know, immune to pesky mortals and their magic? You gotta tell me how that one ends.

[Logalmier]

How to sell your soul? Simple, simply say 'I wish to sell my soul.' out loud. The fiends will never leave you alone.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Wait, you tricked three gods using mindblank?

You must have a really nice DM...either that or they know and just don't care about the other pacts.

[Optimystik]

Please do not laugh at the following:

My halfling druid has sold his soul to Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzat, and is using mindblank to keep them from knowing about the other pacts.

Read that again

Halfling druid

Yeah.

He has promised to kill devils for them, and in exchange they will invest fiendish power in him after he dies, raising him as some kind of demon. He will probably be pretty powerful because of the number of demons he has killed. :smallbiggrin:

Druids get Mind Blank?

[keybounce]

I wonder, would it be possible in such a scenerio to solve your problems with violence? sacrificing minions

fixed that.

[Kish]

fixed that.
That's what (Pirates of the Caribbean spoiler) Captain Jack Sparrow tried in that situation, as I recall.

[krossbow]

I remember in a campaign once a DM had a warlock character sell his soul. The devil's case to him was that he should look at the situation as a plea bargain; by virtue of using fiendish powers and dark abilities in his travels, it would be incredibly easy for them to prove his corruption upon death and claim his soul. Therefore, they weren't worried too much about their ability to collect as long as he stayed a warlock. So the Devil's offered him magical items and aid in exchange for a "favor" at an undisclosed point and time and the complete signing over of his soul in writing.


The character ended up consceeding their point, and they got it rather cheaply all things considered.

They also ended up getting the party bard's soul when he attempted to challenge the devil to a fiddle contest for the warlock in question's soul (when we had to rez him). needless to say, it didn't end well.

[snafu]

They also ended up getting the party bard's soul when he attempted to challenge the devil to a fiddle contest for the warlock in question's soul (when we had to rez him). needless to say, it didn't end well.

Oops. I wonder if the devils deliberately put about stories of people escaping their contracts, just to encourage this kind of thing? Plenty of people around convinced they're the best there's ever been. No shortage of fools who are sure they know the best song in the world. Double or quits? Yes please ;-)

[Dalenthas]

Please do not laugh at the following:

My halfling druid has sold his soul to Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzat, and is using mindblank to keep them from knowing about the other pacts.

Read that again

Halfling druid

Yeah.

He has promised to kill devils for them, and in exchange they will invest fiendish power in him after he dies, raising him as some kind of demon. He will probably be pretty powerful because of the number of demons he has killed. :smallbiggrin:

You realize, of course, that all three above mentioned archfiends are in fact CHAOTIC evil, and therefore not bound to the terms of any agreement?

[Volkov]

Signing a pact certain will defeat any act of good and chaos, and even the atonement spell, only the willing of a higher ranking devil can undo it. If you sign it with Asmodeus there is no way out, ever, not even wish or miracle.

[Ancalagon]

Are there any rules for that? And what happens, someone gains control over you actions? Or just damnation?

Simple: Power of Plot and houserules. Those are the things where "Rules kill the Game".

[Volkov]

Pact insidious gives some pretty good benefits per level, but Pact certain gives really really impressive stuff. Such as giving a max +5 inherent bonus to all your stats, or tons of XP, or several wishes.

[Rotipher]

My halfling druid has sold his soul to Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzat, and is using mindblank to keep them from knowing about the other pacts.


IIRC, there was an early Dungeon adventure which featured a similar idea as its backstory. A CN wizard NPC had repeatedly sold his soul to extraplanar baddies, each from a different plane. He then loses a duel and apparently dies, so all those baddies send their respective outsider minions to his tower on the Material Plane, to find out why his soul hasn't arrived in their custody yet.

Naturally, said minions all appear at the same time, right when the PCs have been hired to investigate the wizard's reported death. Hard to determine what really happened to a guy's soul, when a bunch of demons, slaadi, and demodands (IIRC) keep popping into the tower to viciously attack you and one another....

[factotum]

You realize, of course, that all three above mentioned archfiends are in fact CHAOTIC evil, and therefore not bound to the terms of any agreement?

Which is probably why they've all let the halfling believe he's managed to mindblank them--they'd do a deal just to spite the other demon lords and be darned to the consequences!

[Limos]

Actually that would make a pretty good final weapon. Just have one party member sell his soul to every single entity he can get in contact with. Then toss him into the middle of the enemy stronghold.

When they kill him all those entities will send a representative to collect the poor stooges soul. Suddenly the enemy stronghold is brimming with every kind of evil extraplanar creature in the multiverse and they're all really pissed off.

[TheSummoner]

Actually that would make a pretty good final weapon. Just have one party member sell his soul to every single entity he can get in contact with. Then toss him into the middle of the enemy stronghold.

When they kill him all those entities will send a representative to collect the poor stooges soul. Suddenly the enemy stronghold is brimming with every kind of evil extraplanar creature in the multiverse and they're all really pissed off.

Yeah... but if you ever want to see that guy again, you're going to have to win a crap-load of fiddle contests...

[Syne]

I think it would stand to reason that, once a soul is sold, it is branded with the buyer's mark. Otherwise, ambitious and conniving adventurers would be able to pull all manner stunts.

Limos, I doubt devils actually have to reach into the material plane to acquire their soul. Either the soul drifts into the lower planes on its own due to fixed alignment or they snatch it somewhere along the way to wherever its going. However, an interesting trick to pull would be using Soul Bind on a sold soul (if it is not snatched away immediately) and hiding the gem among someone's equipment. Depending on how delectable the soul in question is, its mere presence in the victim's possessions could spell their doom.

[Telonius]

Hmmm ...

1. PC sells his soul.

2. Somehow manages die in such a way that his soul is destroyed. (Is there a way to do this, other than DEATH from the deck of many things?)

3. Have a friendly cleric (probably of either Olidammara or Garl Glittergold, for this scale of prank) cast Miracle, getting him back to life.

4. Ta-daa!

(5. PC spends the rest of his life fending off attacks from Kolyaruts and Maruts.)

[snafu]

1. PC sells his soul.

2. Somehow manages die in such a way that his soul is destroyed. (Is there a way to do this, other than DEATH from the deck of many things?)

3. Have a friendly cleric (probably of either Olidammara or Garl Glittergold, for this scale of prank) cast Miracle, getting him back to life.

Either you come back without a soul, or with a soul.

If you come back without a soul, then that raises interesting philosophical issues and throws the whole soul paradigm into question. What would a person without a soul be like? If he's just like everyone else, how do we know who has souls and who doesn't?

If you come back with a soul, and it's the same soul as you had before, then the deal still stands and the devils collect upon death.

If you come back with a soul, and it's a different soul, are you still, well, you?

[Syne]

There are tons of ways to get your soul destroyed:

The Death card
Sphere of Annihilation
The attacks of certain epic monsters (such as the Blackball)

But the whole point of having your soul destroyed is that it can't be brought back to life, evar. Well, maybe not evar, but certainly through no mortal, non-epic form of magic.
That said, given a choice between the sweet oblivion of having my soul destroyed and being tortured for the rest of my life-like existence I'd jump into the gaping maw of a Sphere of Annihilation any day.

[Raenir Salazar]

Either you come back without a soul, or with a soul.

If you come back without a soul, then that raises interesting philosophical issues and throws the whole soul paradigm into question. What would a person without a soul be like? If he's just like everyone else, how do we know who has souls and who doesn't?

If you come back with a soul, and it's the same soul as you had before, then the deal still stands and the devils collect upon death.

If you come back with a soul, and it's a different soul, are you still, well, you?


In NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer your Soul was ripped from your body leaving only an empty void in its place, as such an entity known as the Hunger took its place leaving you constantly searching for and consuming spirits to sate the hunger of the void to make up for what is nolonger there.

[Zanaril]

Either you come back without a soul, or with a soul.

If you come back without a soul, then that raises interesting philosophical issues and throws the whole soul paradigm into question. What would a person without a soul be like? If he's just like everyone else, how do we know who has souls and who doesn't?

If you come back with a soul, and it's the same soul as you had before, then the deal still stands and the devils collect upon death.

If you come back with a soul, and it's a different soul, are you still, well, you?

1) That also raises the issue of where souls come from in the first place.

2) More likely the contract stated that at the time of death your soul becomes their property, so even though you're alive again it's still theirs.

3)Depends whether your soul is your conciousness or not.

[Silverraptor]

For some reason these topics are reminding me of this 1 animated movie. The guys sold his soul for some magical doodad but his soul will stay bound to the real world even beyond his natural life as long as it's not destroyed.

Otherwise, he break it, he bought it.

[magic9mushroom]

Hmmm ...

1. PC sells his soul.

2. Somehow manages die in such a way that his soul is destroyed. (Is there a way to do this, other than DEATH from the deck of many things?)

3. Have a friendly cleric (probably of either Olidammara or Garl Glittergold, for this scale of prank) cast Miracle, getting him back to life.

4. Ta-daa!

(5. PC spends the rest of his life fending off attacks from Kolyaruts and Maruts.)

It's quite easy to destroy a soul permanently, in fact it only takes a 5th level sorcerer/wizard spell (Magic Jar) or a 7th level cleric spell (Imprison Soul). Once you've trapped a soul in a gem you can use it as fuel for a spell or when creating a magic item, in much the same way as devils do, which obliterates it. Note that any magic item you create in this way gets tainted with evil.

However, it's specifically stated in the Book of Vile Darkness (from which I sourced the above) that there is no way to restore a character whose soul has been destroyed.

The only thing that makes that even remotely possible is that Miracle has no limits on what the god might be prepared to do, and gods with Alter Reality can do really wacky things like time travel. But realistically, what god is going to go to all that exhausting trouble for the sake of someone who's damned themselves?

@others: Those who say that the defense you get assigned by Hell is crap are wrong. Firstly, you're entitled to have any being represent you at your hearing, and the devils will inform that being in order for in to do so. Secondly, the checks required are Diplomacy, Knowledge(the planes), and Perform(acting). Thirdly, erinyes and harvester devils, which are the normally assigned advocates, have decent modifers on those skills.

[TheLogman]

I am pretty sure that in the case of Varsuvious at least, s/he is exchanging and goodness or Neutrality in his/her alignment for Evil, possibly Lawful Evil. In addition, Varsuivous may be required to act on the interests of the demons from time to time afterwards, cementing the Lawful Evil-ness.

[magic9mushroom]

I am pretty sure that in the case of Varsuvious at least, s/he is exchanging and goodness or Neutrality in his/her alignment for Evil, possibly Lawful Evil. In addition, Varsuivous may be required to act on the interests of the demons from time to time afterwards, cementing the Lawful Evil-ness.

Demons are Chaotic Evil. They do not offer Faustian pacts.

Devils are Lawful Evil. They offer lots of Faustian pacts.

But apart from that, yes.

Also, how interested are devils in D&D in trapped souls? IE, if you're a 15th level wizard and using Trap the Soul on people everywhere, what sort of power could you get from the devils there?

Nice side effect if it does work: The devils don't have an incentive to kill you, in fact they have an incentive to let you live so you can keep selling them souls.

[Optimystik]

Also, how interested are devils in D&D in trapped souls? IE, if you're a 15th level wizard and using Trap the Soul on people everywhere, what sort of power could you get from the devils there?

Judging by FC2, souls are sought-after currency in both Baator and the Abyss. Even without trafficking with devils, bound souls can be used to pay XP and costly material component expenses in a variety of spells; fiends would also likely trade valuable magic items and information for souls.

The value of a soul, of course, depends on the CR of the character it was taken from.


Nice side effect if it does work: The devils don't have an incentive to kill you, in fact they have an incentive to let you live so you can keep selling them souls.

While this is true, setting up a soul harvesting operation is highly likely to attract unwelcome attention from angry paladins and other do-gooders. In addition, most DMs would probably apply the taint rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm) to characters that traffic in stolen souls, which would shorten that character's life expectancy considerably. The devils would merely wait until your operation is shut down and then collect.

[sentaku]

There are tons of ways to get your soul destroyed:

The Death card
Sphere of Annihilation
The attacks of certain epic monsters (such as the Blackball)

But the whole point of having your soul destroyed is that it can't be brought back to life, evar. Well, maybe not evar, but certainly through no mortal, non-epic form of magic.
That said, given a choice between the sweet oblivion of having my soul destroyed and being tortured for the rest of my life-like existence I'd jump into the gaping maw of a Sphere of Annihilation any day.

The Snarl would be the epic monster your looking for

[David Argall]

Some acts quite simply are Big Enough to permanently alter one's soul and/or its resting place,
This depends on the definition of "permanently". Any act is potentially big enough to alter alignment, and that change is permanent, until additional acts make additional changes. The idea that a particular act will override all potential future acts is rather absurd, like saying a large finite number is infinite.
We can note here that in sell the soul stories, the seller gets out from under a quite large percentage of the time [We can casually say 50-50.], so the permanent nature of selling the soul is quite impermanent. Since such uncertainty is adventure productive, that is also part of any D&D version.



and it just so happens that selling your soul is one of them, both in D&D and real world faiths.
Absolutely not in real world faiths. Popular lit, maybe, but in theology, the contract is void on its face. You have no right to sell your soul. That is to be disposed of by whatever powers that be. Your actions are important here, and signing such a paper is not going to help your chances of staying out of any hell, but the paper is just paper and not binding on the deciders of your fate. And in Christianity at least, the devil does not have the ability to keep any promises made, any benefits gained being either stolen from others or simple illusions.



You're contradicting yourself. In your first statement you say the DM's decisions on morality should trump supplemental material, yet in your second you question Rich's own views on morality ("absurd?" "writer bias/error?") despite him being the de facto DM of OotS-land. Which is correct?
There is no contradiction in saying 3 is greater than 2, and that 2 is greater than 1. Here I have ranked core rules - DM - supplements. More precisely, I have ranked reality - DM - supplements. Loyalty to friends/family/etc is a value, but you gain no moral duty to break your pal out of jail where he awaits a deserved punishment. Roy's defense of Belkar is morally deplorable.



But when it fails to apply to the situation you are attempting to use it for, then it does become "less than highly useful." Clearly Rich has decided that an act like abandoning Elan is enough to thoroughly change Roy's alignment. Whether we agree with it or not (and I do, though it seems you don't) is moot; the very nature of Rich's afterlife makes the 'magnet theory' not apply.
The question is whether it should apply. We are not asking here what our writer thinks, but what he should think.

[Keinnicht]

And what happens, someone gains control over you actions? Or just damnation?

I'm pretty sure normal soul-selling means you get to hold onto your soul, you just have to give it up when you die.

[Optimystik]

This depends on the definition of "permanently". Any act is potentially big enough to alter alignment, and that change is permanent, until additional acts make additional changes. The idea that a particular act will override all potential future acts is rather absurd, like saying a large finite number is infinite.
We can note here that in sell the soul stories, the seller gets out from under a quite large percentage of the time [We can casually say 50-50.], so the permanent nature of selling the soul is quite impermanent. Since such uncertainty is adventure productive, that is also part of any D&D version.

That the contract's ends can be somehow countered (whether through a loophole or the actions of one's friends) does nothing to change the fact that the contract itself, if left alone, is enough to damn the person irrevocably. A train is rushing towards you; if you stand still you are sure to be flattened. That you can find a way to get out from in front of the train does not make the train itself any less certain or deadly. The same is true for V if he signs his soul over to the fiends; if he does nothing to escape his pact before collection time, then his fate is sealed.


Absolutely not in real world faiths. Popular lit, maybe, but in theology, the contract is void on its face. You have no right to sell your soul. That is to be disposed of by whatever powers that be. Your actions are important here, and signing such a paper is not going to help your chances of staying out of any hell, but the paper is just paper and not binding on the deciders of your fate. And in Christianity at least, the devil does not have the ability to keep any promises made, any benefits gained being either stolen from others or simple illusions.

I'll end then discussion on real-world religion by mentioning that you are right, the powers that be have jurisdiction over where the soul is sent; however, their decision is usually based on that soul's own actions during life, not the independent whims of said power.

Focusing on popular literature, then: we know that our author has been inspired by a number of works of fiction, and his use of the word "Faustian" indicates a basis on that very work in question. In Goethe's Faust, the titular character did escape his deal with the devil, but as I pointed out above his salvation came about by his own actions, not any inherent failure of his contract.


There is no contradiction in saying 3 is greater than 2, and that 2 is greater than 1. Here I have ranked core rules - DM - supplements. More precisely, I have ranked reality - DM - supplements. Loyalty to friends/family/etc is a value, but you gain no moral duty to break your pal out of jail where he awaits a deserved punishment. Roy's defense of Belkar is morally deplorable.

...in your opinion. You have a tendency not to add that clause where it is warranted. Roy's defense of his actions concerning Belkar was logical, and to my mind wasn't deplorable in the least. The deva's misgivings back up your interpretation, but her final decision supports mine.

As for your ranking, I agree with it; however, it should only apply where one element of the hierarchy directly contradicts another. If two of them are silent on a subject (in this case, selling the soul - core has no treatment, and the DM (Rich) has yet to make his feelings known to us) then the logical place to turn for predictive guidance is a supplement that addresses this subject, until such time as one of the higher-ranking elements steps in.


The question is whether it should apply. We are not asking here what our writer thinks, but what he should think.

I see nothing wrong with his take on morality thus far. His views on soul bind, loyalty, even the treatment of alignment as a 'license to kill' all dovetail neatly with my own. We'll see how he treats V's 'deal,' but I have a feeling I won't have any complaints there, either.

[Zain]

i think that the deamon/whatever you sell your soul to gives you a sort of "bouns" level(s) that you use to get better at what you do (fighter, wizard ect.) but when you die, they take your soul:smallbiggrin:

[The Minx]

I was imagining a large army or something...

The hordes of the Abyss have been trying to do that for some time now. :smallwink:

You're better off circumventing the legions of hell entirely with a small team of bruisers. Or better yet, hire a really really good lawyer. Or ideally, not signing the pact in the first place. Seriously, all that trouble for a couple of feats and/or spell slots? Ho hum.

[hamishspence]

When did Roy break Belkar out of jail? Bargain for release on bail, with a "restraining bolt", yes (on the authority of the city lord). Argue for downgrading of charge from second degree murder to manslaughter, yes. Pressure Belkar to plead guilty, and accept an offer that would have him out of jail for the duration of the crisis, yes. Break him out of jail, no.

He did acquiesce in Haley's attempt to get them out of jail, though But it failed before it could get to Belkar.

[Fireballing_Fun]

Are there any rules for that? And what happens, someone gains control over you actions? Or just damnation?

I've never seen anything for it, so I think it's just up to individual GM's.

I'd go with something more akin to tradition, the person sells their soul for a set number of years of power, fame, wealth etc etc, or to fulfill a specific objective. At the end the entity may reclaim the soul. Which causes the persons death (without resserection unless there are special circumstances) or the entity chooses to use that person as a servant who lacks a great deal of free will.

See even a cleric has not sold their soul, as they can fall from favour and worship another...

[Wikimaster]

When did Roy break Belkar out of jail? Bargain for release on bail, with a "restraining bolt", yes (on the authority of the city lord). Argue for downgrading of charge from second degree murder to manslaughter, yes. Pressure Belkar to plead guilty, and accept an offer that would have him out of jail for the duration of the crisis, yes. Break him out of jail, no.

He did acquiesce in Haley's attempt to get them out of jail, though But it failed before it could get to Belkar.

Ahh. Thank you for reminding me. Seems Argall was wrong, eh?

[magic9mushroom]

Judging by FC2, souls are sought-after currency in both Baator and the Abyss. Even without trafficking with devils, bound souls can be used to pay XP and costly material component expenses in a variety of spells; fiends would also likely trade valuable magic items and information for souls.

The value of a soul, of course, depends on the CR of the character it was taken from.

I see.


While this is true, setting up a soul harvesting operation is highly likely to attract unwelcome attention from angry paladins and other do-gooders. In addition, most DMs would probably apply the taint rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm) to characters that traffic in stolen souls, which would shorten that character's life expectancy considerably. The devils would merely wait until your operation is shut down and then collect.

Firstly, the DM is a bastard if he does that. Secondly, if he tries, that's when you go Necropolitan and laugh in his face. :smallcool:

The paladins shouldn't be an issue for an average spellcaster, but good clerics could be a problem. Depends, of course, on whether they're running the world by status quo or adapted for characters - if the former, your infernal and abyssal pacts should make you significantly more powerful than practically everyone until things get REALLY serious (Leadership helps too). If the latter, then you're screwed. Ditto if the DM decides you should die.

[David Argall]

When did Roy break Belkar out of jail?

You are being too literal here. We have Roy defending Belkar from Miko in the trial scene, not on grounds that she had no legal right to execute him, nor on the grounds this was in some way an evil act, but just because he was a member of the party.

[hamishspence]

Still doesn't change fact that Shojo pointed out Miko would have been doing the wrong thing by killing him on the spot

"then he will be taken into custody and tried, lawfully, on those charges"

and that Roy acquieces.

Arguably, Roy's intervention, while the motive might be "protect fellow party member" can also be extended to "from an unjust act- being killed, without trial, when there was opportunity to try him." Which is, technically, murder- an Evil act.

[Optimystik]

The paladins shouldn't be an issue for an average spellcaster, but good clerics could be a problem. Depends, of course, on whether they're running the world by status quo or adapted for characters - if the former, your infernal and abyssal pacts should make you significantly more powerful than practically everyone until things get REALLY serious (Leadership helps too). If the latter, then you're screwed. Ditto if the DM decides you should die.

Pacts make you strong, but don't forget there are quite a few classes out there specifically designed to take down evildoers that mess around with souls: off the top of my head, there's Witch Slayer, Soulguard, Sacred Exorcist, Sanctified One, Divine Champion... and that's without even looking at BoED. The DM can make your life hell (:smalltongue:) without even resorting to Rule 0 just by outfitting NPCs with a class that counters your fiendish boosts.


You are being too literal here. We have Roy defending Belkar from Miko in the trial scene, not on grounds that she had no legal right to execute him, nor on the grounds this was in some way an evil act, but just because he was a member of the party.

Killing him while he is lying on his back and unable to defend himself is at the very least morally gray for a paladin. She'd successfully subdued him, so landing a finishing blow at that point would be revenge, not necessarily justice.

[David Argall]

Still doesn't change fact that Shojo pointed out Miko would have been doing the wrong thing by killing him on the spot

"then he will be taken into custody and tried, lawfully, on those charges"
You can read that into the statement, but that is what you are doing. Shojo praises Miko in the scene and issues no word of criticism. That his words are diplomatic and do not have to mean what they say is quite true, but that opens them to a host of meanings here, which makes the scene meaningless for our purposes.
An alternate reading of the scene might be that Miko does indeed have the right and duty of summary execution, and Shojo is intervening only because of his need for Belkar as part of his illegal plot.


and that Roy acquieces.
He has a choice? He is in a room full of guards, in a city full of opponents. Taking on Miko was a reasonable challenge. Taking on the city not at all.
There are also matters of immediacy and uncertainty. Miko was going to kill Belkar now. There was a need for action immediately. The trial is at some unknown distance, and might come out any way at all. So Roy doesn't acquiesce as much as simply not act.


Arguably, Roy's intervention, while the motive might be "protect fellow party member" can also be extended to "from an unjust act- being killed, without trial, when there was opportunity to try him." Which is, technically, murder- an Evil act.
A problem here is that Roy then acts to protect Belkar from just acts too. And given Belkar's record, we and Roy know that Belkar fully deserves killing. A trial is merely a lawful concern here, and Roy denies any lawful concern.



Killing him while he is lying on his back and unable to defend himself is at the very least morally gray for a paladin. She'd successfully subdued him, so landing a finishing blow at that point would be revenge, not necessarily justice.
Quite possibly, but we are discussing Roy here, and Roy denied that he was acting on good or lawful grounds. So whether or not it was acceptable paladin behavior is irrelevant.

[Prak]

You can't. What would the devils gain from that?

A powerful member of the hierarchy. But you'd have to be pretty bad ass on your own for them to even consider that.

[Selene]

The idea of selling the soul is an example of shoving something popular into the game even if it doesn't properly fit. Since D&D has monks and other oriental stuff in a Western Europe setting, this can be said to be true to the spirit of the game, but it is not logically true.

Monkey: It's my turn, and I say Ninjas!

Seems perfectly logical to me. :smalltongue:


It is the nature of people in prison that they are warped towards its ways. See the Stanford Prison Experiment as a practical example.

*Googles*

Ok, that's scary. :smalleek:

[Optimystik]

You can read that into the statement, but that is what you are doing. Shojo praises Miko in the scene and issues no word of criticism. That his words are diplomatic and do not have to mean what they say is quite true, but that opens them to a host of meanings here, which makes the scene meaningless for our purposes.
An alternate reading of the scene might be that Miko does indeed have the right and duty of summary execution, and Shojo is intervening only because of his need for Belkar as part of his illegal plot.

Recall that at that point in the strip, Shojo is still hiding behind his senility. Being too lucid in condemning Miko might have tipped his hand too early. Instead, he waits until it is clear that the Order cannot make her listen to reason before relying on a technicality to get her to back down. This doesn't necessarily show approval or praise as you have described; rather, by reiterating his exact orders it gives him plausible denial in case he is called out for defending Belkar.




A problem here is that Roy then acts to protect Belkar from just acts too. And given Belkar's record, we and Roy know that Belkar fully deserves killing. A trial is merely a lawful concern here, and Roy denies any lawful concern.
...
Quite possibly, but we are discussing Roy here, and Roy denied that he was acting on good or lawful grounds. So whether or not it was acceptable paladin behavior is irrelevant.

You mention Roy's denial of law twice, but I don't see it.

Miko: "You call yourself Lawful Good and you defend him??"
Roy: "Not everything is about Good and Evil, Miko. In this case, it's about loyalty." A very Lawful statement, in my opinion.

And the other LG person in the room (Durkon) also objects to Belkar's murder. Dwarven alcoholism aside, he is far more Lawful than Roy. Miko's view is the aberration here.

[snafu]

Dwarven alcoholism aside, he is far more Lawful than Roy.

Alcoholism, for a Dwarf, isn't chaotic. By drinking heavily Durkon maintains and honours the ancient traditions of his ancestors and his people. Making this effort to preserve your connection to your cultural roots is surely a Lawful act.

Which reminds me... * checks clock *... Tue 17 Mar, 12:58 AM. Yep, past midnight. So...

* cracks open can of Guinness *

Sláinte!

[Optimystik]

Alcoholism, for a Dwarf, isn't chaotic. By drinking heavily Durkon maintains and honours the ancient traditions of his ancestors and his people. Making this effort to preserve your connection to your cultural roots is surely a Lawful act.

You know... I never thought of it that way before. That makes a kind of sense.

Pity it doesn't apply to his deity! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

Recall that at that point in the strip, Shojo is still hiding behind his senility. Being too lucid in condemning Miko might have tipped his hand too early. Instead, he waits until it is clear that the Order cannot make her listen to reason before relying on a technicality to get her to back down. This doesn't necessarily show approval or praise as you have described; rather, by reiterating his exact orders it gives him plausible denial in case he is called out for defending Belkar.
But Shojo could not be called out for defending Belkar if Miko was entirely in the wrong here. So if he wanted plausible denial, there is gray in the legal situation and Miko might have the right and duty to execute Belkar as she was trying to do.
Nor does he need to worry about someone suspecting he is actually sane if Miko is entirely in the wrong. He is not considered a complete babbling fool. People assume he makes the correct decisions more often than not. Again the danger is when there is doubt about the legality [or certainty it is legal] of Miko's action. That is when people will actually ask if the order makes sense, and whether there is some hidden motive.


You mention Roy's denial of law twice, but I don't see it.

Miko: "You call yourself Lawful Good and you defend him??"
Roy: "Not everything is about Good and Evil, Miko. In this case, it's about loyalty." A very Lawful statement, in my opinion.

Hmm, I misremembered the statement somewhat. However, no, this is not at all a lawful statement. It is quite chaotic under the circumstances.
Roy is speaking in the presence of the judge and a host of law enforcement officials. They are the law here, and he has no right to challenge their authority, particularly not on the grounds of loyalty to his small group. By law, that loyalty is null and void. It may not stand against the law. [My best bud just robbed a bank? No I can't shelter him, nor try to break him out of jail. The law says I must turn him in. It recognizes no loyalty to friends.]
Roy might have mentioned lawful grounds, such as that Belkar had not yet been tried, or technically even been properly arrested, but he didn't. He justified his action on grounds the law rejects.

[Nekomata]

Roy is speaking in the presence of the judge and a host of law enforcement officials. They are the law here, and he has no right to challenge their authority, particularly not on the grounds of loyalty to his small group.
Wrong. Save my game article on Lawful and Chaotic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a) - being "lawful" has little to do with respecting or obeying the local laws, especially when you think the local laws are wrong or abused by someone. "In particular, if you are both good and lawful, you have no respect for a law is unfair or capricious."

At least, it is supposed to be that way, in the end the DM and the players are free to decide otherwise and follow or enforce any form of lawful-stupid they want.

[David Argall]

Wrong. Save my game article on Lawful and Chaotic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a) - being "lawful" has little to do with respecting or obeying the local laws, especially when you think the local laws are wrong or abused by someone. "In particular, if you are both good and lawful, you have no respect for a law is unfair or capricious."

As is common with this subject, you are taking the exception to be the rule. As the article says, your lawful does not NECESSARILY obey the law, but that is the way to bet. He must obey the law unless he finds a reason not to, and he is not looking for a reason to disobey.
In our Roy case, we note that Roy does not make any claim the law in question is at all unfair or capricious. If anything, he argues the reverse. Instead he claims that he is Belkar's buddy. That is not a claim we recognize as acceptable for a lawful.

[Nekomata]

As is common with this subject, you are taking the exception to be the rule.
What?
I just pointed out that your understanding is flawed, in particular by not accepting any exceptions, and in general by using the wrong "law".

Lawfullness is about having a system of values, "establishing patterns and precedents and sticking to them unless you have a good reason to do otherwise". In Roy's case "Friends" is somewhere around the top of his value system - remember how abandoning a friend was risking a permanent shift to alignment?
It's not about the law created or enforced by any country, organisation or other entity. (Though, in general, Lawfull people will recognize the value of these, they're not bound to follow them, especially if they go against their own system of values.) And in this particular case, in addition to his own system of values, Roy has a couple good reasons to ignore the authority of palladin order (they put them through the whole fake trial for no reason).



In our Roy case, we note that Roy does not make any claim the law in question is at all unfair or capricious. If anything, he argues the reverse.
What? What kind of law is he arguing for in this case (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)?

Either way, not mentioning the local laws he doesn't care about only reinforces that in Roy's system of values "Friends" and "Party" are placed way above "Local laws in some foreign country" "Authority of some military order from the other side of the world" and, in particular "Miko Miyazaki's right to kill anything she thinks the gods want her to."