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AgentPaper
2009-02-16, 04:50 AM
So, I'm looking at joining a 3.5 DnD game, and I've been told that the party needs someone to find traps, and it'll be complete. That means I would be the skillmonkey, however, and I don't really enjoy being a skillmonkey. However, instead of just not joining the campaign, or forcing my way in as something else, I'm trying to look for a class that can deal with traps and such, while also being a decent combatant. In general, I like to play wizards, clerics (specifically combat clerics) and strongarm archers. (not many arrows shot, but powerful ones, and can fight in close combat if needed, aka not squishy)

So, what kinds of classes are out there that can deal with traps? I think most sourcebooks are available, but list what stuff is from which, if possible. The campaign is a desert setting, so the class has to fit that at least somewhat. (Or be tweakable to it) There are some custom races in the setting, but I plan to be human, so they don't matter. There will be a lot of traps, so I definitely need to be good at getting rid of them, since nobody else can.

So far, I know that the party has a dwarf cleric, an orc archer, and a warlock, as well as couple others that I don't know about. I don't expect much optimization, so I don't need to be the best out there, and I don't need a specific build, but a general idea for what could fill the role of trap-finder while being at least somewhat tough and good in a fight would be great.

Tokiko Mima
2009-02-16, 04:59 AM
So, I'm looking at joining a 3.5 DnD game, and I've been told that the party needs someone to find traps, and it'll be complete. That means I would be the skillmonkey, however, and I don't really enjoy being a skillmonkey. However, instead of just not joining the campaign, or forcing my way in as something else, I'm trying to look for a class that can deal with traps and such, while also being a decent combatant. In general, I like to play wizards, clerics (specifically combat clerics) and strongarm archers. (not many arrows shot, but powerful ones, and can fight in close combat if needed, aka not squishy)

So, what kinds of classes are out there that can deal with traps? I think most sourcebooks are available, but list what stuff is from which, if possible. The campaign is a desert setting, so the class has to fit that at least somewhat. (Or be tweakable to it) There are some custom races in the setting, but I plan to be human, so they don't matter. There will be a lot of traps, so I definitely need to be good at getting rid of them, since nobody else can.

So far, I know that the party has a dwarf cleric, an orc archer, and a warlock, as well as couple others that I don't know about. I don't expect much optimization, so I don't need to be the best out there, and I don't need a specific build, but a general idea for what could fill the role of trap-finder while being at least somewhat tough and good in a fight would be great.

I'd go with your cleric plan and load up a wand or three of Find Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm). Need to disable them too? Take a level of Warlock and the Shatter at will invocation. Or suggest that the party buy the book from the Ravenloft campaign guide that lets the warlock already in the party use that invocation.

Yarram
2009-02-16, 05:01 AM
If you take the Jack Of Trade's Feat from Complete Adventurer, you can have any skill you want, not cross-classed.
It's a waste of a feat in some people's eyes, but I like to take it, especially when I play a monk.

Cloaknd
2009-02-16, 05:05 AM
If multiclassing is an option a good start would be scout/rogue. Gain trapfinding, good skill points from both classes(maximize search e.g-no need to disarm the trap, bypass it) plus some interesting damage options when not flanking. Pick up Feat : Swift Ambusher: Rogue/Scout levels stack for skirmish, and sneak attack/skirmish stack for determining qualifications for ambush feats. (Complete Soundrel).

OR get a wand :)

Kantur
2009-02-16, 05:05 AM
The first thing I'd look at is the Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2), full spontaneous casting (Though a different list to the sorcerer/wizard list or the bard list), 6+Int skill points to play with, unfortunately for range it's only spells, simple weapons and hand crossbows. But there's casting in light armour, trapfinding, the ability to learn one spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard Illusion/Enchantment schools every few levels...

Scout (Complete Adventurer) could be decent for few, powerful bow shots (If you move 10' in a round, you'll get bonuses to damage and AC) - can do the trapfinding stuff, lots of skill points to mess around with, no 'dead levels', eventually gaining blindsense and blindsight. No spells to play with however.

Spellthief (Complete Adventurer) - basically a rogue with some spells. The slower Paladin/Ranger type casting, slowed sneak attack progression, a few less skillpoints than that rogue, the ability to steal spells from opponents, energy resistance or SLAs, again, the trapfinding that you want to fill that gap in the party.

kamikasei
2009-02-16, 05:06 AM
So do you want to be able to contribute to combat, or to be a reasonably tough melee fighter? There are a few classes with trapfinding who needn't be played as regular skillmonkeys, but I don't know how far any could be taken in melee. You could try a beguiler played mainly as an arcanist, or an artificer fighting with wands and supplying the rest of the party with gear. (It's possible you could make your own items to boost your melee strength, as an artificter, but BAB/HP won't give you much help.)

JellyPooga
2009-02-16, 05:13 AM
Spellthief (Complete Adventurer) might be your friend. They're basically Rogues with a couple less HP, a couple less Sneak Attack dice and Skill Points, but they get a little magic and the ability to steal magic from they're enemies (and use it against them, mwahahahahah!!!).

They get Trapfinding as a class feature and plenty of Skill Points, so the skill monkey role is filled (to keep your friends happy), but they also get spellcasting and some interesting class features to satisfy your preferences. They're not exactly front-line fighters, but they definitely come into the second-line (like Rogue) or skirmish (like Monk or Scout) bracket.

If you don't like that, Bards get a lot of skill points and casting (no Trapfinding though), Ninja's also get Trapfinding or you could multiclass: Rogue/Sorcerer or Scout/Sorcerer are good conceptually (a Rogue/Wizard is probably better mechanically though).

If you really want to, you could always be a Cleric of Kurtulmak (the Kobold racial Deity) with the Kobold Domain (NB - you don't have to be a Kobold to take the Kobold Domain...you can just be a Kobold Fan-boy!)...that gives you Trapfinding as it's Granted Power. You'll have to pump Int to get a decent amount of skill points out of the Clerics 2+Int per level, but you'd fill the niche your compatriots want you to whilst being a solid Cleric.

Cloaknd
2009-02-16, 05:16 AM
If multiclassing is an option a good start would be scout/rogue. Gain trapfinding, good skill points from both classes(maximize search e.g-no need to disarm the trap, bypass it) plus some interesting damage options when not flanking. Pick up Feat : Swift Ambusher: Rogue/Scout levels stack for skirmish, and sneak attack/skirmish stack for determining qualifications for ambush feats. (Complete Soundrel).

OR get a wand :)

Personal experience shows that spellthief unless being whisperknife/master thrower/Gouda fails hard.

kamikasei
2009-02-16, 05:22 AM
If you really want to, you could always be a Cleric of Kurtulmak (the Kobold racial Deity) with the Kobold Domain (NB - you don't have to be a Kobold to take the Kobold Domain...you can just be a Kobold Fan-boy!)...that gives you Trapfinding as it's Granted Power.

I had a feeling there was a domain for that... you might try going Cloistered Cleric, and using Knowledge Devotion and standard clericzilla tactics to be strong in melee at least some of the time.

AgentPaper
2009-02-16, 05:27 AM
I like the domain that gives trapfinding idea. I'll ask the DM about re-flavoring that, or possibly just having my character be obsessed with traps to the point of religion, and seeing kobolds, as the best trap-makers, as beings to look up to. I'd definitely look into making my own magic traps, as well as other items. In combat, I use a crossbow or a nice big 2-hander, using spells to buff me up to worthwhile levels. What kinds of feats/stats might be important for this type of build?

Keld Denar
2009-02-16, 05:44 AM
I'd second Beguiler. As you already have a dorf cleric, he might feel you are stepping on his toes if you roll the same class, even if your play styles are vastly different. Plus, Beguilers rawk the house.

If you are deadset on cleric, I'd recommend the Cloistered Cleric varient from UA. It gets 6+int skill points. Then grab Kobald and Trickery domains. This gives you almost all of the roguey skills, which is kinda fun.

As far as feats, I'd recommend you take more of an archer approach. The usual PB > Precise > Rapid Shot progression is natural.

BobVosh
2009-02-16, 05:52 AM
Third for beguiler. PHB2
Little write up on it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060711a

This is mainly because you said you like wizards though. If you wanted something new, ignore me.

AgentPaper
2009-02-16, 05:54 AM
I'd second Beguiler. As you already have a dorf cleric, he might feel you are stepping on his toes if you roll the same class, even if your play styles are vastly different. Plus, Beguilers rawk the house.

If you are deadset on cleric, I'd recommend the Cloistered Cleric varient from UA. It gets 6+int skill points. Then grab Kobald and Trickery domains. This gives you almost all of the roguey skills, which is kinda fun.

As far as feats, I'd recommend you take more of an archer approach. The usual PB > Precise > Rapid Shot progression is natural.

Okay, I'll bite. What is this beguiler? I'm starting to like the idea of using a greatpick and a heavy double crossbow, worshiping and creating nefarious traps, and still being able to buff myself and others and heal if need be. However, I admit I don't know anything about beguilers, other than, well, they beguile things apparently. I'm not even sure that they're a class, as I think I've heard of them referenced to as a race, though that may just be a misunderstanding. :smalltongue:

Edit: Checking out the above, more on that later. I'm just liking the idea of working my way into some deep desert tomb, disabling or re-using all the traps inside, and making it our party's secret base of operations. Not sure if we'll want one, but I could do it, and that just appeals to me. I'm also a fan of item creation in general, so if there's a good setup that would make me good at doing that as well, that would be great.

kamikasei
2009-02-16, 05:59 AM
Okay, I'll bite. What is this beguiler?

Beguiler is a base class from the PHB2, essentially a sort of rogue/wizard/sorceror - like the Arcane Trickster made into its own class. They're int-based casters with 6+int skill points per level and a good skill list, so they can fill the rogue niche pretty well (since the shortfall in base skills is compensated for by having int as a primary stat). They cast spontaneously like sorcerors, but they use the same sort of casting as the Warmage and Dread Necromancer - instead of having limited spells known, they know all the spells on their class lists, pre-chosen around a limited theme. Thing is that their theme is illusion/enchantment, which makes for a very good list, and they get several excellent spells from other schools on there too. So, you can be a skillmonkey in terms of lock-picking, trap-finding, stealthing and socializing - but in combat you can use your spells to great effect as a primary caster with a strong theme and a lot of flexibility.

They're a pretty cool class.

There's also a Beguiler race in, I think, Shining South. They're little mouse-like creatures. The two have nothing in particular to do with one another.

Keld Denar
2009-02-16, 06:02 AM
Its a class, in PHBII. Its basically to Illusion and Enchantment what Warmage is to Evocation and Conjouration. 6+ int skill points per level, Int based spontaneous arcane casting from a semi-limited list (that still kicks much booteh) and actual CLASS FEATURES that make your spells stronger and harder to resist when you get the drop on someone. Really a well built class, balanced and playable from 1 to 20 with very little optimization required. Feats to take might be Spell Focus Enchantment (or Illusion) and a couple minor gems like Unsettling Enchantment (CMage). Any race would work for you, although races with +int bonuses would be best. I'd highly recommend Whisper Gnome for a sneakly little bastard who is seldom up to no good, but always pulls through for the glory of the party.

Pretty much kickass.

Dixieboy
2009-02-16, 06:18 AM
Dwarven defender anyone?

Edit: Oh wait you want to be a humie :smallannoyed:

kamikasei
2009-02-16, 06:19 AM
Dwarven defender anyone?

Edit: Oh wait you want to be a humie :smallannoyed:

Doesn't do anything for trapfinding. Are you perhaps being confused by trap sense?

AgentPaper
2009-02-16, 06:30 AM
I'm not locked into playing a human, I may well end up playing a kobold or whisper gnome. I'm going to see if there are any other arcane casters in the party, and if not, I'll mostly likely go for the beguiler, maybe as a whisper gnome, though I don't know if I can be that race. If we have an arcane caster, I'll go for my cleric of traps. If I do make my cleric, I'd like to choose my other domain as something that helps me make magic items, otherwise something that helps me buff/heal/fight. The other cleric in the party seems to be focusing on being a tough fighter and less as a support class, so I don't think I'll be stepping on his toes, at least.

Edit: Mostly I don't want to be any of the mentioned homebrew classes because they have a somewhat hefty level adjustment, and a large number of racial hit dice I would be forced to take at a certain age. (admittedly, a very old age) :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-16, 06:37 AM
There is a Trapsmasher Barbarian which trades Trapsense for Trapfinding using Survival and attack rolls in place of Search and Disable Device. I don;t know where it's found sadly, but it was mentioned on these forums a while back.

AgentPaper
2009-02-16, 06:53 AM
Ah, thanks. I think I remember hearing about that, but didn't remember it. That's a good solid third choice to use if either of the other don't work out. My fourth choice being a more standard rogue. (Why is it that whenever I type rogue, I think I spelled it rouge by mistake and start to delete it, only to find I spelled it right? :smalltongue:)

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 07:31 AM
There is a Trapsmasher Barbarian which trades Trapsense for Trapfinding using Survival and attack rolls in place of Search and Disable Device. I don;t know where it's found sadly, but it was mentioned on these forums a while back.

Dungeonscape.


Also, Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/whatever 5 (e.g. Spellwarp Sniper) especially with Able Learner is right up there in terms of being a Wizard and a skillmonkey. Like a more versatile Beguiler.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-16, 09:58 AM
I played a Grey Elf Beguiler with a Hat of Disguise and max UMD in a mid-level game a while back, the game was more focused on politics and problem solving than on killing stuff and taking its loot. In the few fights we ended up in he was sort of the MVP, I took Weapon Finesse and Arcane Strike but never once even made an attack roll with him. Get to know the spell list and you'll never be in a situation that you don't have a quick solution to. Start collecting the Raiment of the Four set from MIC and you'll largely make up for what your spell list may be lacking. I'd recommend taking Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, especially considering as-written it will allow you to cast spells one higher level than normal though at the cost of most of your highest level spells/day. Dipping one level of Mindbender will also set your Advanced Learning back to an even level so you can get a higher level spell with each. That will also allow you to take the feat Mindsight from Lords of Madness (p126).

Quite a while back on another board someone was asking for proof that a party of 4 Clerics was equal to a well-rounded party from level 1. I gave a build for a Kobold Cloistered Cleric as part of the example party. He had the Kobold and Trickery domains, but he'd secretly converted to worshiping Vecna and had the feat Whispered Secrets from Races of Destiny, in the Initiate feats section. That gets Disable Device, Search, Spot, Listen, Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills, in addition to the normal Cleric class skills and all the Knowledge skills, Decipher Script, and Speak Language from Cloistered Cleric. Best of all, since he worships Vecna you could eventually get a Dagger of Denial (CD), which is one of the coolest/funnest weapons in the game.

AgentPaper
2009-02-16, 11:32 AM
Couldn't you just take that jack of all trades or whatever feat instead of that? I'm mulling over the secretly a Vecna worshiper, but I'm not sure yet. Might add more to what is now a somewhat one-dimensional character. His purpose for joining the party is that he wants to create and set the perfect trap, which is to secretly steer the party to their own destruction. However, it has to happen in the absolute perfect way, which will likely never happen, but could if I eventually decide to make a face-heel turn. I'm tempted to not even tell the DM about this, if I went through with it, since it would never really affect the game anyways, but I suppose I probably should, if nothing else to explain the extra class skills I have and what I spent that one feat on...

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-02-16, 12:16 PM
I know you've already expressed interest, but I 4th the Beguiler. Spont casting from that spell list is very nice and gives you a ton of versatility. It's basically got all the spells people use to argue that Blaster Wizards suck (Glitterdust, Slow, Solid Fog, lots of save-or-sucks). While it's an Int-based caster, you still benefit from high Charisma (benefits from Bluff Feinting in combat) and you can cast in armor. Ever since I put one together as an NPC for the party I'm DMing, I've wanted to play one (and I have resisted playing the DM NPC).

-JM

Draz74
2009-02-16, 12:43 PM
Beguiler, Trapkiller Barbarian, and Kobold Cloistered Cleric are all good options.

If you go Beguiler, don't worry too much about optimizing. With your group, you'll be plenty strong.

If you go Cleric, you don't *have* to do the Vecna thing. Just being a Cloistered Cleric and taking the Kobold domain will get you most of what you need in terms of class skills.

Jack of All Trades is a terrible feat. It just lets you make skill checks untrained that normally require being trained. You'll still be terrible at said skills. The closest feat to what you're thinking of is Able Learner, which requires being (mostly) Human, not Kobold or Whisper Gnome. It's a decent choice for a Cloistered Cleric; it will let you get a decent (but not amazing) Move Silently check without burning a lot of skill points wastefully, for example.

One other option besides the three here is the Factotum. It's a skill monkey class, but much less stabbity than the Rogue; more of a "pull a new trick out of my hat every day" class.

AgentPaper
2009-02-16, 07:39 PM
Okay, so I'm gunna give human cleric, devoted to the kobold (or a similar re-themed domain) domain. For my other domain, the default seems to be trickery, but I'm not sure I want that. I'd rather have something that makes it easier to create magic items, or is pretty interesting on it's own, to help me be less one dimensional. I don't plan on actually worshiping Kurtalmak, but instead gaining my power by following an ideal, in this case the ideal of creating the perfect trap. Also, what are some nice, solid spells for a support/buff cleric? And I may stick a few of the more powerful crowd control spells, like what grease and glitterdust are to wizards, but I don't know what those are either. Again, I have access to most if not all books, but I'd like to stick to the more core books, like the complete series, and the compendiums, only digging into the more obscure stuff for real gems.:smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-16, 07:55 PM
There's the Artifice Domain in the ECS. It's not powerful, but it works thematically.

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 08:02 PM
Spell Compendium also has Craft- and Creation-domains. Creation has all the Creation-spells (including True Creation on 8; the spell can actually be handy at times) along with a bunch of more or less useful stuff (it has some Image-spells, Heroes' Feast, Create Food and Water, Create Water and Pavilion of Grandeur) and +1 CL to Conjuration.

Craft has Wood/Stone Shapes, but it also has Wall of Stone (a great spell), Forcecage (can be useful to at least has scrolled), Minor & Major Creation and Fantastic Machine-line (weird spells). Craft has +1 CL to Conjuration and a free Skill Focus: Craft; can be handy if you need it for a PrC or plan on actually taking Craft: Trapmaking.


Craft is probably the stronger of the two, but either works (and neither is that powerful; Time/Celerity/Spell/etc. would kick their asses across the countryside every day of the week). Craft/Kobold should be decent. Although Trickery makes much sense with traps too (because traps are trickery) and is mechanically the strongest out of that bunch.

EDIT: Oh, and Craft & Artifice are very similar. Artifice has True Creation and Prismatic Sphere while Craft has Wall of Stone and Forcecage; other than that they're majorly "Meh" (although Hardening and Fantastic Machine may have some implications) and Artifice grants a +4 Competence to all Crafts, while Craft grants one Skill Focus: Craft bonus feat. Artifice's bonus looks better, but in practice, Competence-bonuses are easy to come by while a Cleric can never afford to burn a feat on Skill Focus, so actually Craft gives you something while Artifice really does not. So yea.

Graymayre
2009-02-16, 09:09 PM
My good man, you need look no further than your local Eberron Campaign book.

The artificer class is given the find traps and disarm traps abilities, without all of that skillmonkery.

It should be noted that the class does all of its stuff through making magical items, so if you don't like being batman (or are allergic to being kickass) then this may not be the right choice (then again, I'd probably mercilessly beat you if that was true).

Curmudgeon
2009-02-17, 08:56 AM
You can make a Rogue that isn't your standard skillmonkey. In fact, I did just that at DunDraCon this past weekend, and ended up being the combat powerhouse of the group.

The main ingredients for this are two feats: Education (found in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Eberron Campaign Setting, and Player's Guide to Faerūn), which makes all Knowledge skills class skills; and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion). Knowledge Devotion gives you a bonus to hit and damage against all creatures of a certain category, based on your related Knowledge skill check. There are 6 Knowledge skills that are associated with creature types, so you'll want to maximize all of these. Then add in the Rogue's Skill Mastery and you can "take 10" on all such checks. The feat Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) instead lets you "take 12". With a constant reliable 36 for these skills (no rolling required) you get +5 to hit and damage against every creature in the D&D game. And you've got sneak attack damage, of course.

So yeah, you can then throw in some trap skills. Since you'll have blown all your other skill points on Knowledge skills it won't be possible for you to be a general skillmonkey.

I built my guy with a level of Cloistered Cleric, for the domain powers, and Monk, for the unarmed damage. Add in Ascetic Rogue and Improved Natural Attack and I was doing lots of unarmed damage.