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LibraryOgre
2009-02-16, 05:54 PM
Every game, I decide what I'm going to play if I die. We've been playing 4e since September, and I'm on my 3rd character, so this is not entirely unwarranted.

Now, our most recent game puts us on an island, really limiting my actual choices as far as race is concerned. Most likely would be human, lizardman, halfling, or shadar-kai (and then, only if I wanted to die quickly). I was looking at our party (a barbarian, two puppy-rangers, a wizard/cleric, a cleric/wizard, a fighter and a warlord... myself being the warlord), I was thinking a lizardman ranger.

But, when I got a hold of the MM, there were no lizardmen, and precious few traits in common across the lizardmen classes.

All of them have Swamp Walk.
None of them have stellar Ints or Charismas.
Strength, Con, and Wisdom seem to be their decent stats, but Dexterity doesn't suck, and is great in some "builds".

Other than that there's... nothing.

So, what would you do for a 4e lizardman?

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-16, 06:08 PM
I used a 4e Lizardman Ranger/Wizard in a campaign on these boards, but unfortunately it's gone now.

The stat bonuses were +2 Str, +2 Wis. Skill Bonuses were +2 Nature, +2 Endurance. They may have got a racial bonus of +1 to a defense, but I can't remember.

The racial power was sidestep attack, as seen in the Greenscale Hunter entry in the MM. It's possible this was just provided as the most suitable option for my character.

EDIT: I think the swamp walk was a given, too. Languages were Common and Draconic.

NecroRebel
2009-02-16, 06:13 PM
I think we can safely split the MM Lizardfolk into 2 distinct groups, the Greenscale and the Blackscale, as the Blackscale is an entirely different size than their smaller cousins.

All 3 of the Greenscale Lizardfolk presented have decent to good DEX, and 2 of them have sneaky-type roles, so I'd give them that, and they all have decent CON as well, so that's their stat boosts. This meshes with the 3.5E versions, who get +2 Dex and Con as stat boosts.

Skill boosts should be in Athletics and Nature, as all 3 have the former trained while 2 have the latter.

They should have the Reptile subtype, Medium size, 6 speed, the Swamp Walk ability... Um. Still probably underpowered as is, and the MM ones don't have a shared power as a racial. Maybe give them a +1 racial bonus to AC? That, again, fits with the 3.5E stats, and it will hopefully be balanced by them having no racial power.

So, yeah. +2 Con/Dex, +2 Nature/Athletics, Swamp Walk, Reptile subtype, and +1 AC as their racials. They make decent Rangers, Rogues, and Fighters, but aren't amazing at anything.

Mando Knight
2009-02-16, 06:26 PM
Hm... actually, the Hunter and Bruisers' highest are Str, Dex, and Con; while the Darter has Dex, Wis, and Con; and the Marsh Mystic's are Str, Wis, and Con.

How about...

+2 Str, +2 Con
+2 Athletics; +2 Nature (although this isn't reflected in the MM stats... I just took the two most common skills known by lizardfolk)
Speed 6
Size: Medium
Languages: Common, Draconic
Reptilian: You have the Reptile subtype (See MM 282)
Swamp Walk: You ignore difficult terrain that results from bog, mud, or shallow water.
Tail Slap: You can use Tail Slap as an encounter power. (again, pulled from the stats even though it's not universal between the lizardfolk, modified to try to balance it with existing racial attacks)

Tail Slap Lizardfolk Racial Power
Your tail flies out as if from no where, tripping your foe.
Encounter
Standard action, Melee 1
Target: One creature within reach
Dex, Str, or Con +2 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6+Str damage, and the target is knocked prone.
Increase to +4 bonus and 2d6 + Str damage at 11th level, and +6 bonus and 3d6 + Str damage at 21st level.
Special: When you create your character choose Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your character's life and does not change the power's other effects.

Limos
2009-02-16, 06:31 PM
I made a Lizardmen race in my homebrew monster race thread. It's pretty similar to what other people have posted. There's some others in there you could look into.

HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104768)

Tiki Snakes
2009-02-16, 06:35 PM
I hashed up a real quick homebrew lizardman type for one of my players.

I think I rather arbitrarily gave them +2 str and dex, swamp-walk and so on, nothing too different from the above. When It came to racial power, however, I don't think I'd have been happy giving them a +1 AC instead. In the end, I gave them a utility power to tie in with the agile, physical thing. Based on the Rogue one that allows you to be considered to have made a run-up, even if you haven't.

It doesn't over-power them, but does give something that can be actually used, rather than a stat.

Probably under-powers them, If anything, but I did also hash up a racial feat based on a Lizardfolk DnD mini. Something along the lines of, once per round, player may shift as an immediate reaction if they hit with a melee attack. I can't remember the specifics.

Also, there's a pretty viable alternative to all these suggestions in the homebrew monster-races thread. :)

LibraryOgre
2009-02-16, 06:36 PM
Hm... actually, the Hunter and Bruisers' highest are Str, Dex, and Con; while the Darter has Dex, Wis, and Con; and the Marsh Mystic's are Str, Wis, and Con.

I'd avoid Str and Con. 1st, it's suboptimal, and these guys aren't going to have a great power like Fey Step or Oversized to back them up.



+2 Athletics; +2 Nature (although this isn't reflected in the MM stats... I just took the two most common skills known by lizardfolk)

I figured these two, as well; it makes them naturally good swimmers and climbers, and wise in the wild.


Tail Slap: You can use Tail Slap as an encounter power. (again, pulled from the stats even though it's not universal between the lizardfolk, modified to try to balance it with existing racial attacks)


Compare Tail Slap to Dragon's Breath. Or to an elf's Elven Accuracy (a bit more on par, since elves have the Woodland Step ability... with wider application, but limited to shifts). Combine that with a sub-optimal stat spread (Str & Con, both being linked to the same defense), and the lack of other racial abilities... they're a bit thin.

Asbestos
2009-02-16, 06:46 PM
Tail Slap Lizardfolk Racial Power
Your tail flies out as if from no where, tripping your foe.
Encounter
Standard action, Melee 1
Target: One creature within reach
Dex, Str, or Con +2 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6+Str damage, and the target is knocked prone.
Increase to +4 bonus and 2d6 + Str damage at 11th level, and +6 bonus and 3d6 + Str damage at 21st level.
Special: When you create your character choose Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your character's life and does not change the power's other effects.
I'd make it a minor and have it do close burst 1 w/ a push instead of a knockdown. Call it Tail Sweep.

So... my take on them would have that (which, yes, they don't have in the MM, but otherwise that tail ability is terribly underpowered) and +2 str and +2 wis.

Limos
2009-02-16, 06:47 PM
My Lizardfolk race uses Strength and Wisdom, and the Tail Slap is a move action instead of a Standard action.

Lizardfolk

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Ebony1590/lizardfolk.png

RACIAL TRAITS

Average Height: 5’5’’ – 6’5’’
Average Weight: 160 – 220 lbs

Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common and Draconic
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Nature

Swamp Walk: You ignore difficult terrain relating to mud, swamps,
bogs and shallow water.

Tail Swipe: You may use Tail Swipe as an Encounter power.

Tail Swipe (Lizardfolk Racial Power)
Encounter
Move Action Melee
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Strength Modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase to 2d6 at 11th level and 3d6 at 21st level.

NPCMook
2009-02-16, 07:15 PM
My Lizardfolk race uses Strength and Wisdom, and the Tail Slap is a move action instead of a Standard action.

Lizardfolk

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Ebony1590/lizardfolk.png

RACIAL TRAITS

Average Height: 5’5’’ – 6’5’’
Average Weight: 160 – 220 lbs

Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common and Draconic
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Nature

Swamp Walk: You ignore difficult terrain relating to mud, swamps,
bogs and shallow water.

Tail Swipe: You may use Tail Swipe as an Encounter power.

Tail Swipe (Lizardfolk Racial Power)
Encounter
Move Action Melee
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Strength Modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase to 2d6 at 11th level and 3d6 at 21st level.


Only problem with that is you made it a move action, I think I agree with Asbestos and go with his, maybe drop the 1d6+Str damage and turn that into a feat.

Limos
2009-02-16, 07:25 PM
I made it a move action so it could be used as an attack routine and would differentiate it from most racial moves.

NPCMook
2009-02-16, 07:44 PM
I made it a move action so it could be used as an attack routine and would differentiate it from most racial moves.

But it involves no moving, so it should either be a minor or standard action.

Townopolis
2009-02-16, 07:50 PM
Well no, it doesn't involve moving, but that's ok. I believe readying a shield is a move action, and that doesn't involve actual locomotion.

Plus, this could make pretty good sense as a move, since swiping anywhere not directly behind you with your tail would require some footwork. Heck, even swiping behind you might require a little footwork.

Glyphic
2009-02-16, 07:59 PM
I agree with mook. Making it a move to essentially 'make it interesting' is against the paradigm of the game, as it's built.

Readying a shield is a standard action, grabbing items is a minor action. That power is solidly a standard action. Minor may work, but I'd advise against it.

Lappy9000
2009-02-16, 08:04 PM
Every game, I decide what I'm going to play if I die. We've been playing 4e since September, and I'm on my 3rd character, so this is not entirely unwarranted.

Now, our most recent game puts us on an island, really limiting my actual choices as far as race is concerned. Most likely would be human, lizardman, halfling, or shadar-kai (and then, only if I wanted to die quickly). I was looking at our party (a barbarian, two puppy-rangers, a wizard/cleric, a cleric/wizard, a fighter and a warlord... myself being the warlord), I was thinking a lizardman ranger.

But, when I got a hold of the MM, there were no lizardmen, and precious few traits in common across the lizardmen classes.

All of them have Swamp Walk.
None of them have stellar Ints or Charismas.
Strength, Con, and Wisdom seem to be their decent stats, but Dexterity doesn't suck, and is great in some "builds".

Other than that there's... nothing.

So, what would you do for a 4e lizardman? This? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1056839) Pretty much the 3.5 lizardfolk without the Level Adjustment. Well, you know. Ho-humm.

Asbestos
2009-02-16, 08:56 PM
Might as well put all of mine into one place...

Lizardfolk
+2 Str, +2 Wis
+2 Athletics, +2 Nature
Normal Vision
Speed 6
Swamp Walk
Reptilian Subtype

Tail Sweep Lizardfolk Racial Ability
Encounter
Minor Action Close Burst 1
Targets: Each Creature in Burst
Attack: Str/Dex/Con +2 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d4 + Str modifier damage and target is pushed 1 square. Increase damage to 2d4 at 11th level and 3d4 at 21st level.

Lizardfolk Racial Feats
Heroic Tier:
Powerful Tail
Increase Tail Sweep damage die to d6s.

Tail Swat
You can use your Tail Sweep power in place of a basic attack for opportunity attacks. The range is adjusted to Melee 1 for the purposes of this attack. In addition using Tail Sweep in this way does not expend the power and may be used even if you have expended Tail Sweep normally.



Reasons:
Felt that just pushing the target was too weak, but a push + 1d6 + modifier was too much, so I reduced it to d4. This way it can still be useful for clearing minions without being overpowered. The feat increasing the damage die is pretty basic. Tail Swat is modeled after a similar feat for Minotaurs that lets them use their gore attack as an OA. Have a few other ideas for Lizardfolk feats, including something like the Shadar-kai 'Expert Chainfighter' feat but for Nets.

Limos
2009-02-16, 08:58 PM
The Lizardfolk tail appears more solid and stationary. So it's a Tail Slap rather than a Tail Whip.

If it it was Tail Whip I would make it a Standard action, they are using the muscles in their tail to hit the guy with their tail.

For a Tail slap they are pivoting on their feet to swing their big heavy tail out and into the enemy. It's a big enough action that it's too much for a minor action, but it doesn't require enough thought to qualify as a Standard action. Anyway, they are moving to do it. They aren't using an arm or extra limb, they are moving their body so that momentum will bring their tail up and smack the other guy.

I really think Tail Slap as a move action works better than as a Standard action.

Asbestos
2009-02-16, 09:06 PM
It (the single target tail slap) could possibly work as a standard action if tagged in afterwards was 'can be used in place of a melee basic attack'.

Townopolis
2009-02-16, 09:08 PM
[Edit]: I really like the tail attack as anything but a standard action--I really like the idea of it being an extra attack you can work into your actions.

Asbestos' version gets my vote. It gives LF a few "favored" classes, which is important for any race in 4e IMO.

As written, they make excellent TWF Rangers, Pit Fighters, and good Clerics, Barbarians, and I don't know what else.

The feats encourage a bit of extra defender-ness, and makes them extra-sticky as fighters.

You could switch +2 Wis for +2 Dex, in which case they make good rangers, and excellent Brutal Rogues and Tempest Fighters. Dex/Con is another option, but ends up usually only supporting 1 primary or secondary stat for any given class. Decent rogues, archery rangers, and infernalocks...

Actually, Dex/Con with a little boost somewhere else could make this a very nice race. With strong enough racials, it becomes fine that you have no bonus in your secondary stat, or even none in your primary--think along the line of dwarf battleragers.

LibraryOgre
2009-02-17, 11:38 AM
I worked up a version last night, but the Playground was being difficult about posting; I'll try to get them up tonight.

Shadow_Elf
2009-02-17, 05:48 PM
VUACS will have Lizardfolk... but I would have to break some serious vodoo magic to release their racial stats for the setting... :smalltongue:.

LibraryOgre
2009-02-17, 06:05 PM
Ok, so I've been giving it some thought. My rationales are in parentheses. For the record, I don't think the blackscale should be playable.

Greenscale Lizardfolk
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common, Draconic
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Nature (They're swimmers, in swamps where climbing can be useful. They're wilderness people.)

*Reptile Blood: Lizardmen have the Reptile keyword, and are considered Reptiles for all effects. (Self-evident)
*Swamp Walk: Lizardmen ignore difficult terrain that results from mud, bogs, or shallow water. (All lizardmen have this)
*Scaly Skin: Lizardmen have a +2 bonus to their AC defense. (I added up their ACs; they're 2 points higher than they should be, given their Dex/Int scores and listed armor)
*Waterborn: Lizardmen may hold their breath for 5 + Constitution Modifier + 1/2 their level minutes, even while exerting themselves. They may swim at
their speed with a successful Athletics roll. (A bit of an extrapolation; the MM listing mentions that they can hold their breath for 10 minutes "with ease", and that they swim a lot. This makes them about on par with those with swim speeds, but they have to make a Athletics check).
*Natural Weapons: Lizardmen have claws and a tail that they can use in melee attacks.

Claw Attack
At-Will
Standard Action Melee 1
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 v. AC
Hit: 1D4 + Strength Modifier damage. Increase Damage to 2D4 + Strength Modifier at 21st level.
Special: You may use this in place of a melee basic attack.
(There aren't much different from permanently in place daggers)

Tail Sweep
At-Will
Standard Action Melee wall 3 within 1
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 v. Reflex
Hit: 1D8 + Strength Modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase damage to 2D6 + Strength modifier at 21st level.
Effect: The lizardman grants combat advantage to all targets until the beginning of their next turn.
Special: You may use this in place of a melee basic attack.
(In order to use this, you have to turn your back on people; the combat advantage keeps it from being too useful, but the prone keeps it from being too unuseful)

Blackscale Lizardfolk
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution

Size: Large
Speed: 8 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common, Draconic
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance (They're swimmers, in swamps where climbing can be useful. They're tough... plus, a knowledge-based skill seemed inappropriate)

*Reptile Blood: Lizardmen have the Reptile keyword, and are considered Reptiles for all effects. (Self-evident)
*Swamp Walk: Lizardmen ignore difficult terrain that results from mud, bogs, or shallow water. (All lizardmen have this)
*Scaly Skin: Lizardmen have a +2 bonus to their AC defense. (I added up their ACs; they're 2 points higher than they should be, given their Dex/Int scores and listed armor)
*Waterborn: Lizardmen may hold their breath for 5 + Constitution Modifier + 1/2 their level minutes, even while exerting themselves. They may swim at their speed with a successful Athletics roll. (A bit of an extrapolation; the MM listing mentions that they can hold their breath for 10 minutes "with ease", and that they swim a lot. This makes them about on par with those with swim speeds, but they have to make a Athletics check).
*Natural Weapons: Blackscale Lizardmen have claws and a tail that they can use in melee attacks.

Claw Attack
At-Will
Standard Action Melee 1
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 v. AC
Hit: 1D6 + Strength Modifier damage. Increase Damage to 2D4 + Strength Modifier at 21st level.
Special: You may use this in place of a melee basic attack.
(There aren't much different from permanently in place daggers)

Tail Sweep
At-Will
Standard Action Melee wall 5 within 2
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 v. Reflex
Hit: 2D4 + Strength Modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase damage to 4D4 + Strength modifier at 21st level.
Effect: The lizardman grants combat advantage to all targets until the beginning of their next turn.
Special: You may use this in place of a melee basic attack.
(In order to use this, you have to turn your back on people; the combat advantage keeps it from being too useful, but the prone keeps it from being
too unuseful)

NPCMook
2009-02-18, 03:22 PM
2 racial at-wills? Overpowered, choosing either one and making them an encounter would balance them out. I can only assume that you made them at-will because they are at-wills for them as monsters, but you are building a PC race, so they should either choose which one they want and they should be encounters, possibly giving them a racial feat that allows them to use both like the Drow have.

Asbestos
2009-02-18, 11:05 PM
2 racial at-wills? Overpowered, choosing either one and making them an encounter would balance them out. I can only assume that you made them at-will because they are at-wills for them as monsters, but you are building a PC race, so they should either choose which one they want and they should be encounters, possibly giving them a racial feat that allows them to use both like the Drow have.

I think that the +2 AC is a bit more overpowered than those powers.

Colmarr
2009-02-19, 01:00 AM
I think that the +2 AC is a bit more overpowered than those powers.

I'm not sure I agree with the judgement, but I do agree with your objection to the +2 AC. Are there any other PC races that give AC bonuses? I thought defensive bonuses were generally to the non-AC defences...

NPCMook
2009-02-19, 01:23 AM
Until about Epic level most attacks will target your AC, so yes a +2 to AC is actually quite overpowered, +1 to AC is okay, but that is the only bonus they get, no racial bonuses to saves, or immunities.

Giving them natural weapons might be a little bit up there also, as we haven't seen how WotC is going to do Natural weapons yet. To balance it out if you want to give them the Natural weapons, I'd suggest dropping the Racial powers if you want to keep the bonus to AC(which should be reduced to a +1 if anything), OR drop the AC bonus for the Tail Sweep Racial(which should be an Encounter)

Claws; Prof: +3, 1d6, Light Blade, Off-hand, Special: Cannot be enhanced.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-19, 02:58 AM
I'd say the only instance in which I wouldn't consider +1 AC to be overpowered (AC is worth more than other defenses since at least 75% of enemy attacks target it) is when the race's ability score bonuses are +2 wisdom and constitution. Too much of an edge otherwise.

Mark Hall's lizardmen are way too imba. If I played a melee ranger/avenging paladin/any fighter/any cleric, I wouldn't choose any other race.

LibraryOgre
2009-02-19, 12:04 PM
2 racial at-wills? Overpowered, choosing either one and making them an encounter would balance them out. I can only assume that you made them at-will because they are at-wills for them as monsters, but you are building a PC race, so they should either choose which one they want and they should be encounters, possibly giving them a racial feat that allows them to use both like the Drow have.

I fail to see how those two are overpowered. One is slightly less impressive than a dagger, and the other, while it has an AoE, also opens the target up to combat advantage and its effects.

Furthermore, the +2 to AC isn't that huge of an improvement. While many attacks target AC, those attacks also benefit from Weapon Proficiency bonuses.

I'll rework a bit, but considering powers like "Reroll your attack/reroll your opponents attack 1/encounter" or "Breathe elemental damage in a 3*3 square area as a minor action", I don't see "I have daggers that can't be disarmed" and "I have a club that will open me to being stabbed in the back" as being terribly powerful.

LibraryOgre
2009-02-19, 12:17 PM
(A slight reworking; I moved the +2 to Strength to Constitution, which was another option I'd considered. I made the +2 to AC only applicable in Light or No Armor; considering humans get a +1 to three defenses, this doesn't seem unreasonable. I corrected a typo on Tail Sweep, making it 1D6, and switching it to an encounter power that grants CA to everyone. It is now, however, a minor action).

Greenscale Lizardfolk
+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common, Draconic
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Nature

*Reptile Blood: Lizardmen have the Reptile keyword, and are considered Reptiles for all effects.
*Swamp Walk: Lizardmen ignore difficult terrain that results from mud, bogs, or shallow water.
*Scaly Skin: Lizardmen have a +2 bonus to their AC defense when wearing light or no armor.
*Waterborn: Lizardmen may hold their breath for 5 + Constitution Modifier + 1/2 their level minutes, even while exerting themselves. They may swim at
their speed with a successful Athletics roll.
*Natural Weapons: Lizardmen have claws and a tail that they can use in melee attacks.

Claw Attack
At-Will
Standard Action Melee 1
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength + 2 v. AC
Hit: 1D4 + Strength Modifier damage. Increase Damage to 2D4 + Strength Modifier at 21st level.
Special: You may use this in place of a melee basic attack.
(There aren't much different from permanently in place daggers)

Tail Sweep
Encounter
Minor Action * Melee wall 3 within 1
Target: Each Creature in Wall
Attack: Strength + 2 v. Reflex
Hit: 1D6 + Strength Modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase damage to 2D6 + Strength modifier at 21st level.
Effect: The lizardman grants combat advantage until the beginning of their next turn.
Special: You may use this in place of a melee basic attack.

NPCMook
2009-02-19, 07:25 PM
I don't see the point of giving them the claw attack when you are going to be using them as a PC race, just make it a natural weapon so you can use it with your attacks, its not a huge imbalance except "Hey look guys I don't have to buy weapons!" They just can't be enchanted, so in Heroic Tier they are kind of decent, but slowly lose their awesomeness as you level up since they can't be enchanted in any way so eventually a +2 Magic Dagger is going to out shine them

Asbestos
2009-02-19, 07:42 PM
Gnolls can gain the use of claws as a weapon via a feat, here it is as an example...

Claw Fighter
Prerequisite: Gnoll
Benefit: You possess vicious claws, which you can use as weapons with a +3 proficiency bonus and
1d6 damage. For purpose of powers and feats, you can treat your claws as light blades, and you are
considered to have a weapon in each hand. You cannot enchant your claws.


You could pretty much just copy and paste that to your lizardfolk.

Also, the racial attack to-hit should scale with Tier, like the other racial attack powers. So, ability + 4 at 11th and ability + 6 at 21st. Also, consider giving the option of Str/Con/Dex to the Tail attack, at Str only its pretty limiting.

Townopolis
2009-02-19, 08:05 PM
As written, they make great melee rangers and kind of ****ty everything else.

+2 AC "while in light or no armor" doesn't balance, it just discourages you from playing heavy armor classes.

OneFamiliarFace
2009-02-20, 02:39 AM
+2 AC "while in light or no armor" doesn't balance, it just discourages you from playing heavy armor classes.

And with their Con and Wis bonus would make them ridiculously hard to hit/kill as Protector Druids. (Lvl 1 Lizardman Druid would have AC 19 while in light armor, which is scale mail and a shield for a Defender.)

So I agree that the AC bonus is no good, especially when considering that neither Dragonborn nor Warforged get it (and the latter technically have built in armor). You may want to consider the AC bonus as a feat (Scaly Skin or something), and look at other AC granting feats to see what tier it should be in (probably Paragon for +1 AC, since it is a non-situational bonus to AC).

When creating a new race, I'd say it is safe to give it stats, a bonus to skills (though this isn't necessary, see Orc), a situational bonus, and one encounter power (or very weak at-will). If it is a little underpowered, then that can be discovered and changed during play or with new feats.

LibraryOgre
2009-02-23, 12:39 PM
My final version of the lizardman. I completely removed Natural weapons as racial powers, and made them Heroic tier feats. This leaves them as tough, semi-aquatic lizard people. They do well as Rangers, Paladins, Fighters and Clerics.

Greenscale Lizardfolk
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom (there aren't really any consistently high scores amongst Greenscales. However, Strength and Wisdom tended to be higher than they needed to be for classes that didn't rely on them)

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common, Draconic
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Nature (They're swimmers, in swamps where climbing can be useful. They're wilderness people.)

*Reptile Blood: Lizardmen have the Reptile keyword, and are considered Reptiles for all effects. (Self-evident)
*Swamp Walk: Lizardmen ignore difficult terrain that results from mud, bogs, or shallow water. (All lizardmen have this)
*Scaly Skin: Lizardmen have a +2 bonus to their AC defense. (I added up their ACs; they're 2 points higher than they should be, given their Dex/Int scores and listed armor; it's easiest to see in the)
*Waterborn: Lizardmen may hold their breath for 5 + Constitution Modifier + 1/2 their level minutes, even while exerting themselves. They may swim at their speed with a successful Athletics roll. (A bit of an extrapolation; the MM listing mentions that they can hold their breath for 10 minutes "with ease", and that they swim a lot. This makes them about on par with those with swim speeds, but they have to make a Athletics check).

Lizardfolk Feats:
Both are Heroic tier

Tail Sweep [Lizardfolk]
You gain the encounter power of Tail Sweep.
Tail Sweep
Encounter
Minor Action * Melee wall 3 within 1
Target: Each Creature in Wall
Attack: Strength + 2 v. Reflex
Hit: 1D6 + Strength Modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase damage to 2D6 + Strength modifier at 21st level.
Special: You may use this in place of a melee basic attack.

Claw Attack [Lizardfolk]
You gain have claws as natural weapons. Your unarmed attack has a proficiency bonus of +2, and does 1D4 damage. You may use these claws in melee basic attacks, or any power that has the "Weapon" keyword at melee range.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-23, 12:52 PM
Still way too strong. Why'd I want to take any other class for a frontliner? It's the AC bonus that makes them overpowered, not the racial attacks - lower it to +1 and make it work only in light/no armor.

NPCMook
2009-02-23, 04:29 PM
Still way too strong. Why'd I want to take any other class for a frontliner? It's the AC bonus that makes them overpowered, not the racial attacks - lower it to +1 and make it work only in light/no armor.

Only in the beginning will it be overpowered, once you get into Paragon Tier, most enemies the DM throws usually their basic attack aims for Non-Armor Class defenses

LibraryOgre
2009-02-23, 08:10 PM
Still way too strong. Why'd I want to take any other class for a frontliner? It's the AC bonus that makes them overpowered, not the racial attacks - lower it to +1 and make it work only in light/no armor.

Because a human would have another at-will for variability, and has defenses against all those other attacks that don't rely on AC? Because Elves have the option to reroll that 1, once per encounter? Because a halfling can negate one critical on themselves per encounter? Because a dwarf can heal as a minor action, which is fantastic for a front-liner? Because a dragonborn has an area attack, and heals even more per healing surge than anyone else? Because an eladrin can get out of any tight space it finds itself in? Because the wizard in your party didn't take any single-target spells, and your dragonborn can't count three squares, so you need fire resistance in that party? Heck, maybe you want to dip into another class, without spending a feat, so you want to be a half-elf.

While a +2 AC is nice, it's not necessarily the end all, be all. If it bothers you that much, call it an armor bonus. It works with shields, but not with armor.

Asbestos
2009-02-23, 09:34 PM
MH, is there a reason you decided to go Strength only as the attack stat for tail sweep?