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Optimystik
2009-02-16, 08:59 PM
I need a good one, preferably with Monk and Cleric levels so I can avoid Kensei/Swordsage cheese. Also, I heard Sacred Fist 8 is the magic number to get to, why is that? I don't have CD to look it up yet.

arguskos
2009-02-16, 09:08 PM
Personally, I like this build: Monk 2/Favored Soul 4/Sacred Fist 10/whatever X

It's not really optimized, but it's fun. Monk/Cleric is BETTER, but Favored Soul is more flavorful and enjoyable in my opinion.

My personal build goes like this: Hellbred Saint Monk 2/Favored Soul 4/Sacred Fist 10/castingPrChere 2. He's got serious Wis/Cha focus, and with Saint Cha-to-AC, his AC is stratospheric. That particular character also took Vow of Poverty, making him even HARDER to kill. He's pretty powerful, though not amazingly so (only 14 casting levels after all), but he's fun and good enough to keep up with a group that isn't really heavily optimized.

Eldariel
2009-02-16, 09:18 PM
Monk 1/Cleric 5/Sacred Fist 10/X Divine PrC 5 (works only with fractional BAB) is the gold standard that gets 9th level spells while maintaining very decent Monk-abilities. Monk 2 costs you in the end, but gets you Evasion & a second feat so it's not all that horrible a dip. That said, as it's the divine casting that empowers the character, not the Monkish asskickery, maximizing casting is probably a good idea.

Also, level 8 is actually the worst level to quit on as it costs you extra casting. Level 7 or 10 as far as Sacred Fist goes; you lose an extra level of casting on level 8 so if you go that far, you need to go to the end to get anything out of it. With 11 levels in Monk, Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt can technically get to 20th level unarmed strike, although Cust Serv ruled that they don't stack and thus you'd only end up with 2d8 with Monk's Belt and Monk 1 + Sacred Fist 10. Either way, you'd need to sacrifice 4 levels of casting to get 2d10, so it's not worth it.


Anyways, yea, max your divine casting, get Divine Power + Righteous Might and so on for the combats (DMM: Persist or Quicken Spell + Metamagic Rod of Quicken; remember that you don't need hands open to make unarmed strikes so you don't even need the standard Glove of Storing to pull that off) Quickening whatever buffs you need. You'll probably also want Pounce; Lion Tribe Warrior from Shining South, and Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws + Open Least Chakra: Hands are probably the best ways to do it without having to dip or rely on spells.

Just few basic pointers.

Person_Man
2009-02-17, 10:44 AM
Sacred Fist is a pretty mediocre PrC. It offers:

Full BAB
8/10 caster progression (missing 4th and 8th levels)
Strong Fort and Ref Saves
d8 hit die
AC bonus, Fast Move Bonus, Unarmed Damage bonus
Level + Wis bonus to damage for one minute, twice per day.
Blindsense 10 feet
+4 AC, +4 Saves, SR 25, 1/2 your Wis bonus rounds, once per day.

And that's pretty much it. The full BAB + spells is a tempting combination, but it's really nothing special when you realize that a generic Cleric 7 gets access to Divine Power at ECL 7. It's really not worth losing at least 2 (and usually 4, assuming Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist X) caster levels over.

Telonius
2009-02-17, 12:32 PM
Well, that is looking at it from the Cleric point of view. Maybe think of it as something that's trying to specifically improve the Monk (by way of getting it persisted Divine Power/Righteous Might), rather than something that improves the Cleric. Cleric1-2/Monk1-4/SacredFist1-7/Monk5-11, with the Air and Travel domains, wouldn't that be a lot better than Monk20?

Person_Man
2009-02-17, 01:30 PM
Well, that is looking at it from the Cleric point of view. Maybe think of it as something that's trying to specifically improve the Monk (by way of getting it persisted Divine Power/Righteous Might), rather than something that improves the Cleric. Cleric1-2/Monk1-4/SacredFist1-7/Monk5-11, with the Air and Travel domains, wouldn't that be a lot better than Monk20?

Well yeah, almost anything would be better then Monk 20.

But you give up your extra Stunning Fist uses, Flurry progression, all the other various Monk special abilities, and the bonus Speed and AC can be replicated 100 different ways. Getting Cleric spells is a much better deal. But there's really not much uniquely Monkish about it beyond the improved Unarmed Damage thing, which isn't much.

Having said that, I'll fully admit that anything with +16 BAB, 17/20 casting, and decent hit points, should be fine in a normal game. With access to 9th level spells, any build is fine. It's just muddled. Optimystik, what's your build goal?

Leon
2009-02-19, 04:54 AM
My preferred Way into Sacred Fist is via Druid.
Monk 2 / Druid 4

The required feats for the PrC are easily covered with 3 of them being monk bonuses and everyone's favorite hated feat Combat casting is a normal choice (anywhere within the 3 choices)

Other feats i like with it are power attack and Roundabout kick or Superior Unarmed Strike + Magic related feat of choice (often Extend)

Edit: Learn to Fully read the OP... anyway my suggestion still stands (if you substitute the Druid for Cleric)

Adumbration
2009-02-19, 05:22 AM
If you take the druid path, you might make it Druid 5. It gets you Wildshape, which is always useful.

Leon
2009-02-19, 06:21 AM
If you take the druid path, you might make it Druid 5. It gets you Wildshape, which is always useful.

You could, its not mentioned in mine as i tend ignore the ability or replace it with something else

Optimystik
2009-02-19, 08:03 AM
Optimystik, what's your build goal?

Pummel things with fists, mostly. The BAB was the main thing I wanted to hang on to. 9th-level spells are nice, but if it makes me qualify for the class more easily I can live with capping at 8th.

I'm aware of the awesome monk/druid mechanical synergy, but flavorwise they're so diametrically opposed that it wouldn't feel right. (One class affirms the natural world, the other completely shuns it.) I'm not quite munchkin enough to gloss that over.

Leon
2009-02-19, 09:07 AM
Pummel things with fists, mostly. The BAB was the main thing I wanted to hang on to. 9th-level spells are nice, but if it makes me qualify for the class more easily I can live with capping at 8th.

I'm aware of the awesome monk/druid mechanical synergy, but flavorwise they're so diametrically opposed that it wouldn't feel right. (One class affirms the natural world, the other completely shuns it.) I'm not quite munchkin enough to gloss that over.

Hmm, ive never looked at really from a mechanical angle.
Ive seen no issue with the flavor wise side.

I have a Druid that is "almost" a monk, most who encountered him inc other druids have no idea what he is until he drops the calm act and unleashes hell with spell, pole arm and fist. Its a 100% druid with variant choices and Feats to suite

I'm thinking about playing a Dwarf Druidic Sacred Fist as one of the two replacement idea's for the current game (We're going to Egypt and its the Land of the Bureaucratic Dead, i have a feeling at least a couple of PCs are not coming back from this one)
If i'd thought about it i'd have taken 2 lvls of monk instead of barb on the current PC and had a Sacred Fist Archivist, but the Barb levels are more suited the way the PC has developed

Person_Man
2009-02-19, 10:40 AM
Pummel things with fists, mostly.

Well if that's your goal, then you might just want Shifter Monk/Fist of the Forest/Warshaper/Psionic Fist, or something similar. With Improved Natural Attack, Expansion, and your unarmed damage improving class abilities, you end up with 12d8ish unarmed damage. Take Scorpion's Grapple (Sandstorm) for free Grapple attempts. And you get some psychic powers for variety.

JeminiZero
2009-02-19, 11:19 AM
Pummel things with fists, mostly. The BAB was the main thing I wanted to hang on to. 9th-level spells are nice, but if it makes me qualify for the class more easily I can live with capping at 8th.


Well... have you considered 4 Cleric / 1 Crusader / X Ruby Knight Vindicator? Pick up Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat, and tack on superior unarmed strike so that the damage progresses as you level. Or use a race with a natural attack (like warforged). Its not optimal, but it is good enough to bring your foe down with a Mountain Hammer Fist to his face.

Keld Denar
2009-02-19, 02:40 PM
Pick up Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat, and tack on superior unarmed strike so that the damage progresses as you level.

SUAS is the Practiced Spellcaster of UAS, all it does is add 4 "effective" levels, although it isn't capped by HD, which is kinda funny. It does NOT give you full monk progression.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Sacreligious Fist yet? Something like Monk2/Duskblade3/Ur-Priest2/SacredFist10/Anything3. This nets you full divine casting, channel spells, decent UAS progression, Turn Undead to power Divine Feats and whatnot. Granted, Ur-Priest is a little overpowered, but since you are nerfing it with Monk levels, its not terribly bad. Its certainly not rediculous like combining Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, and Mystic Theurge would be.

Granted, all the gods hate you, but at least you can Righeous Might up and kick their asses...

JeminiZero
2009-02-19, 06:21 PM
SUAS is the Practiced Spellcaster of UAS, all it does is add 4 "effective" levels, although it isn't capped by HD, which is kinda funny. It does NOT give you full monk progression.


It only adds 4 effective levels IF you are a monk (or have IUAS as a monk). Otherwise it grants damage progression by level. It certainly doesn't give you full monk progression. You only get 2d6 by level 20 vs a full monk who gets 2d10.

Zirou
2009-05-01, 09:05 PM
Sacred Fist is a pretty mediocre PrC. It offers:

Full BAB
8/10 caster progression (missing 4th and 8th levels)
Strong Fort and Ref Saves
d8 hit die
AC bonus, Fast Move Bonus, Unarmed Damage bonus
Level + Wis bonus to damage for one minute, twice per day.
Blindsense 10 feet
+4 AC, +4 Saves, SR 25, 1/2 your Wis bonus rounds, once per day.

And that's pretty much it. The full BAB + spells is a tempting combination, but it's really nothing special when you realize that a generic Cleric 7 gets access to Divine Power at ECL 7. It's really not worth losing at least 2 (and usually 4, assuming Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist X) caster levels over.


They actually gain full casting, the tables aren't accurate in complete divine if you read the text. Now if you mean prereqs cause a build to not have casting then I could technically agree, but if you only take two monk, the rest cleric and the rest sacred fist eventually you will gain casting as though you were at 18th level at 20th level, not that bad of a trade off especially since you will gain 10 levels worth of BAB.

Bluebeard
2009-05-01, 09:18 PM
They actually gain full casting, the tables aren't accurate in complete divine if you read the text.
I'd like you to take a poll on how many DMs accept that.

Claudius Maximus
2009-05-01, 09:29 PM
If we're going by RAW, I'm pretty sure descriptions trump tables.

Bluebeard
2009-05-01, 09:46 PM
If we're going by RAW, I'm pretty sure descriptions trump tables.
If we're going by RAW, the scorpion whip does 1d43 damage.

Vexxation
2009-05-01, 10:24 PM
If we're going by RAW, the scorpion whip does 1d43 damage.

That's a very tricky die to roll.