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Tubercular Ox
2009-02-16, 09:11 PM
So I'm reading Magic of Incarnum and the Totem bind for the Manticore belt... over and over... and I'm not seeing the flaw here.

By level 20 you can get 7 attacks, ranged, your full BAB for each of them, independently targetable on anyone within a 30' diameter, for a standard action.

So this build starts at Totemist 2, with Totem Bind: Manticore Belt. At level 9 you get Shoulders bind: Pegasus cloak. Now you fly above the fray and rain... death from above. The fun thing about Pegasus Cloak is that you control your move rating... put one point of essentia in and even with your Average mobility you only have to coast forward 5' per round.

From there you can add:
Shape soulmeld: Sighting gloves or bluesteel bracers. You can then take Open Least Chakra to get precise shot from the sighting gloves, or you can just take the Precise Shot feat and be done with it. Which makes the +2 initiative from bluesteel bracers very interesting, although maybe you would prefer the one extra damage point from sighting gloves anyways.

Double Chakra Bind: Totem, Heart of Fire: +1d4 fire damage per point of essentia.

Dread Carapace (Arms): Double crit range.

Double Chakra Bind: Shoulders, Totem Avatar: +1 size to your natural weapons. Which leads to:

Improved Natural Attack: Another +1 size, your spines now do 2d6 damage.

Improved soulmeld capacity: A feat for another attack at full BAB? Very economical. If there were an Incarnum Focus for the Totem Chakra, that'd be a must have, too.

Here's your essentia at lvl 20:
Totem Avatar: 0
Dread Carapace: 0
Manticore Belt: 7
Pegasus Cloak: 1
Bracers: 4
Heart of fire: 6
You have 7 attacks that do 2d6+4+6d4 fire dmg, with crits on 19-20. At full BAB, ranged, for a standard action, distributable. You even have 2 essentia to play with, and you can take PBS and Precise Shot as your last two feats.

I thought there was a magic item that gave your natural attacks enhancement bonuses to atk/dmg, but I can't find it again.

I know you guys do this more than I do, what can you add to this build?

martyboy74
2009-02-16, 09:25 PM
I know next to nothing about incarnum, so I'll not comment on the legality of the build.

The flaw is the lack of damage output or status effect. 2d6+6d4+4 averages to (2+12)/2+(6+24)/2+4=26 points of damage per attack, assuming no resistances of immunities to the damage types. 7 attacks per round totals 182 damage per round. At level 20, this simply isn't enough to remain relevant. Adding in DR 10/whatever and fire immunity (both of which are completely reasonable, if you look), your average damage per attack drops to 1.

In addition, flight becomes less of a defense at higher levels; most monsters at those CRs have enough mobility to take you out of the fight.

\/ I can't disagree with the awesome in a build like this.

Vonriel
2009-02-16, 09:29 PM
That may be the case, but the concept of this just sounds fun. It may not be mechanically optimal, but man, this build has style. :smallcool:

AmberVael
2009-02-16, 09:34 PM
This build needs some Scout levels.
After all, the Manticore belt is only a standard action to use- you've got the capability to take a move action every round, meaning you could get skirmish damage on every attack, easy.

Oh, and the item you're looking for is Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-16, 09:45 PM
At level 20, this simply isn't enough to remain relevant at level 20.

>.> How is it supposed to be done, then? I'm clearly far too ignorant.

And I've got 760k of magic items coming. Surely I can do something? I mean, yeah, no cloak, no gauntlets, no bracers... that's modest for an incarnum build.

Fixer
2009-02-17, 07:51 AM
Shape soulmeld: Sighting gloves or bluesteel bracers. You can then take Open Least Chakra to get precise shot from the sighting gloves, or you can just take the Precise Shot feat and be done with it. Which makes the +2 initiative from bluesteel bracers very interesting, although maybe you would prefer the one extra damage point from sighting gloves anyways.Actually, neither of these works as you want it to. Both of them apply to WEAPON damage rolls, and the spikes from the soulmeld are not weapons. In the Magic of Incarnum book, it does specify a difference between weapon damage and other forms of damage.


Double Chakra Bind: Totem, Heart of Fire: +1d4 fire damage per point of essentia.This is a stretch. The description reads, "natural weapons or unarmed strikes," neither of which the spikes qualify for. If anything, they are considered a spell-like effect (as all soulmeld effects are) that requires a normal ranged touch attack.


Dread Carapace (Arms): Double crit range.Again, a stretch, but this one would probably be arguable. It does specifically specify including attacks from other soulmelds. The fact that these attacks aren't NATURAL attacks, however, does throw a big monkey wrench into this.


Double Chakra Bind: Shoulders, Totem Avatar: +1 size to your natural weapons. Which leads to:

Improved Natural Attack: Another +1 size, your spines now do 2d6 damage.Again, see my comments above that this is a spell-like ability and not a natural attack.


Improved soulmeld capacity: A feat for another attack at full BAB? Very economical. If there were an Incarnum Focus for the Totem Chakra, that'd be a must have, too.This one works as you expect.

A few things you may not have noticed, however, that you CAN do with other soulmelds.

1) Soulmelds that grant natural attacks (Blood Talons, Girallon Arms, Kruthik Claws, Lamia Belt, Landshark Boots, Rageclaws, Sphinx Claws, Threefold Mask of the Chimera, Unicorn Horn and Wormtail Belt each bound to your Totem chakra) specifically state so. With these soulmelds you can use the tactics you outlined above but none of them are ranged.
2) There are several that grant a bite attack, and one granting two tentacle attacks, which may or may not be considered natural attacks by your GM. These soulmelds don't specifically state you gain these attacks AS NATURAL ATTACKS. In these circumstances it is easy to see this being a spell effect, as most peoples' mouths are not large enough to bite things, and these soulmelds do not actually increase the size of your mouth. I am unfamiliar with any errata on this.

Person_Man
2009-02-17, 10:04 AM
Manticore belt is a volley attack, so precision damage (Skirmish, Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike) only applies to the first attack unless you have Greater Manyshot. And as Fixer observes, it's essentially a spell like ability, not a natural attack. So you can only apply certain abilities to it.

Having said that, its still a rockin ability. You could go Factotum 8/Totemist 12 and use it twice per round. A Rogue 10/Totemist 10 can apply Str and Cha damage to every hit (with Greater Manyshot and Maiming Strike feats). I'm sure that there are other combos out there as well. Just take feats to expand your essentia as much as possible.

AmberVael
2009-02-17, 10:40 AM
Manticore belt is a volley attack, so precision damage (Skirmish, Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike) only applies to the first attack unless you have Greater Manyshot.

Now there's a broad, general rule I've never heard before, though my google-fu indicates it comes from the Rules Compendium. Ah the wonders of releasing new rules that affect large parts of gameplay in the latest splatbooks. :smallannoyed:

Fax Celestis
2009-02-17, 10:43 AM
Now there's a broad, general rule I've never heard before, though my google-fu indicates it comes from the Rules Compendium. Ah the wonders of releasing new rules that affect large parts of gameplay in the latest splatbooks. :smallannoyed:

Actually, that happened with CAdv errata.

AmberVael
2009-02-17, 11:18 AM
Actually, that happened with CAdv errata.
:smallconfused:

As far as I can tell, the official CAdv errata (found here, just in case someone can tell me I'm looking in the wrong place (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a)) has nothing about precision attacks on a volley. It has a minor blurb on skirmish, but says nothing about volley attacks...

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-17, 12:03 PM
According to core RAW, any attacks that are individually targettable qualify for precision damage (but only when they otherwise qualify; such as attacking a flat-footed or flanked foe within 30 ft for sneak attack).

Since the 'errata' is in a splatbook (CAdv), the original source takes precedence, and overrides it.

Thus, you get sneak attack, death attack, and skirmish damage on each spike.

Not that great as the focus for a build (unless you can find ways to add multipliers to the damage, or can do other effects), but it can come in useful even at high levels. Unfortunately, soulmelds aren't really the way to do this, since spikes aren't considered natural attacks or unarmed strikes, and thus don't qualify for most of them (nor do they qualify for things such as an amulet of natural attacks).

Nabbing the ability to Ranged Pin/Disarm/Sunder/Ricochet, however...

Person_Man
2009-02-17, 12:58 PM
There's a series of articles on the WotC Website, All About Sneak Attack (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a):


Volley Type Attacks

Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack.

Notice that Skip Williams is the author, not some random WotC staffer. It's reprinted in the Rules Compendium, and I've seen it printed other places as well. Off the top of my head, I think its in Complete Arcane somewhere under weaponlike spells. I know they errata'd Master Thrower to specify that one of its tricks is a volley. It might also be in XPH, since that's the source of Greater Manyshot.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-17, 01:39 PM
According to core RAW, any attacks that are individually targettable qualify for precision damage (but only when they otherwise qualify; such as attacking a flat-footed or flanked foe within 30 ft for sneak attack).

Since the 'errata' is in a splatbook (CAdv), the original source takes precedence, and overrides it.

False. That's the case except when the sourcebook specifically states it overrides the core material.


Off the top of my head, I think its in Complete Arcane somewhere under weaponlike spells.That's what I meant earlier, not CAdv, but CArc.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-19, 01:32 PM
These soulmelds don't specifically state you gain these attacks AS NATURAL ATTACKS.

You are being incredibly silly because
A. As you mention, there are bite attacks listed without them specifically being stated as natural attacks, it's allowed to be implied. Please especially note the Behir Gorget, which goes on to reference the primary attack/secondary attack rules that are concomitant with natural attacks without referring to the Bite as a natural attack.

B. Manticore belt specifically states Ranged attack, not Ranged Touch attack, consistent with a natural weapon.

C. The monster entry for the Manticore lists the spikes as a natural weapon in the stat block. They even get Weapon Focus(spikes). If this hadn't been the case, I might have been more tempted to agree with you.

D. Magic of Incarnum isn't the best written book they've made. You have to be extra careful not to cling to "But it doesn't SAY so!" arguments when consistency with other soulmelds in the book and the flavor of the totemist in general are against you. The repeated inference of the Totem binds is that they give you the attacks of the various creatures. So the Manticore Belt should be inferred to give you the spike attack of the manticore... a natural weapon.


Manticore belt is a volley attack, so precision damage (Skirmish, Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike) only applies to the first attack unless you have Greater Manyshot. And as Fixer observes, it's essentially a spell like ability, not a natural attack. So you can only apply certain abilities to it.

Having said that, its still a rockin ability. You could go Factotum 8/Totemist 12 and use it twice per round. A Rogue 10/Totemist 10 can apply Str and Cha damage to every hit (with Greater Manyshot and Maiming Strike feats). I'm sure that there are other combos out there as well. Just take feats to expand your essentia as much as possible.

I, too, am unhappy that this was snuck in through Complete Arcane, but it's a very reasonable restriction on the attack and I don't think there's any argument to be made that it doesn't apply here.

There's no point in maximizing essentia. It isn't spent, it's invested. You put the points into the manticore belt, you can use the attack, all day, every day.

There's a lot of wiggle room here. The crux of the build is the Manticore Belt. I saw it, grabbed it, and then added every useful-looking soulmeld on top of it. Not the best optimization method.

At level 2, you get the Totem Bind, with the essentia capacity for 2 attacks. At level 4, you get the essentia for 3 attacks, which you can actually use if you have Improved Soulmeld Capacity. At level 6, with ISC, you have the essentia capacity and essentia for 4 attacks.

Pegasus Cloak is nice, vertical envelopment is darn useful for open lines of sight, even if you're not untouchable up there, but there are other methods of flight, so we'll ignore it. It makes me sad, but life goes on.

Essentia capacity is a function of character level, not class level, so at level 16 your capacity is 4, +1 for totem bind, +1 for enhanced soulmeld capacity. 6 attacks, which you have the essentia for if you take the Bonus Essentia feat.

You can also meld (though not bind) other soulmelds as well. A juicy one looks like Blink Shirt, which gives you a teleport as a standard action. Since you can't teleport and attack in the same round, you can dump in the max essentia for a 50' teleport at level 16.

Now, full BAB people don't get sneak/skirmish/whatever damage, but apparently they manage decent damage output anyways? I vote level 6, because level 6 + Bonus essentia all stacks up for 6 attacks w/o unused essentia or the need for an extra feat beyond Bonus Essentia and Improved Soulmeld Capacity. We have 14 levels to play with. We don't need a skirmish bonus or an extra move for the "Full BAB on every attack" to be worthwhile, although we can probably find something useful to do with the move action. What can we cook up here?

EDIT: Maybe level 6 isn't the best jumping off point. Bonus Essentia is a must. At any build, Totemist 2, 4, or 6, it gives you two extra attacks, an incredibly efficient feat.

At totemist 2, you get 4 attacks at level 16, and the hollow feeling that there is an extra point of essentia capacity you cannot fill. Unless there's a magic item that grants a point of essentia -- books not with me now and I can't remember. I've only just started with Magic of Incarnum.

At totemist 4, you get an extra point of essentia, for 5 attacks. Is two levels worth an extra attack?

At totemmist 6, you get another point of essentia, but now you need Improved Soulmeld capacity to be able to use it. Is two levels + a feat worth an extra attack?

I do not know the answers to these questions.

Since it was already brought up... DR is going to be a problem. Assuming the spikes are a natural attack, which is the reasonable conclusion, they are also explicitly listed as ranged, so you could take two levels of Kensai and invest the spikes with the +2 Force ability from magic item compendium. All DR problems gone. Of course, the number of creatures you face with shield spells or outright force immunity shall then increase exponentially, and Combat Reflexes is a wasted feat for a ranged attacker, so I wouldn't call it a good solution.

I'm going to examine some other ranged builds... cleric, ranger to start... when I get a chance.

Sinfire Titan
2009-02-19, 02:33 PM
So I'm reading Magic of Incarnum and the Totem bind for the Manticore belt... over and over... and I'm not seeing the flaw here.

By level 20 you can get 7 attacks, ranged, your full BAB for each of them, independently targetable on anyone within a 30' diameter, for a standard action.

So this build starts at Totemist 2, with Totem Bind: Manticore Belt. At level 9 you get Shoulders bind: Pegasus cloak. Now you fly above the fray and rain... death from above. The fun thing about Pegasus Cloak is that you control your move rating... put one point of essentia in and even with your Average mobility you only have to coast forward 5' per round.

From there you can add:
Shape soulmeld: Sighting gloves or bluesteel bracers. You can then take Open Least Chakra to get precise shot from the sighting gloves, or you can just take the Precise Shot feat and be done with it. Which makes the +2 initiative from bluesteel bracers very interesting, although maybe you would prefer the one extra damage point from sighting gloves anyways.

Double Chakra Bind: Totem, Heart of Fire: +1d4 fire damage per point of essentia.

Dread Carapace (Arms): Double crit range.

Double Chakra Bind: Shoulders, Totem Avatar: +1 size to your natural weapons. Which leads to:

Improved Natural Attack: Another +1 size, your spines now do 2d6 damage.

Improved soulmeld capacity: A feat for another attack at full BAB? Very economical. If there were an Incarnum Focus for the Totem Chakra, that'd be a must have, too.

Here's your essentia at lvl 20:
Totem Avatar: 0
Dread Carapace: 0
Manticore Belt: 7
Pegasus Cloak: 1
Bracers: 4
Heart of fire: 6
You have 7 attacks that do 2d6+4+6d4 fire dmg, with crits on 19-20. At full BAB, ranged, for a standard action, distributable. You even have 2 essentia to play with, and you can take PBS and Precise Shot as your last two feats.

I thought there was a magic item that gave your natural attacks enhancement bonuses to atk/dmg, but I can't find it again.

I know you guys do this more than I do, what can you add to this build?

Ok, you are way off target. Manticore Belt is not a natural weapon, and effects like Size increases and INA do not apply to it (read the text of the bind, and tell me if you see the words "Natural weapon" anywhere in it).

That said, you can get the damage into obscene levels with relative ease.

4 essentia capacity base+1 from Expanded Soulmeld Capacity+2 from being bound to your Totem Chakra+1 from an Incarnum Focus. 8 Essentia base.

Totemist capstone class feature allows you to treat every point of essentia invested in a soulmeld bound to your Totem chakra as two points for one minute per point of Con modifier. At 20th level you can easily have a Con score of 36, which translates into 13 minutes of doubled essentia goodness.

Investing 8 Essentia into the Manticore Belt while that class feature is active grants you 16 attacks/round at BAB 15+Dex+16 before any other modifiers. That's a base of +31. A Dex of 25 nets you a +7 to that, which means you hit Big T on a 2+, and hit most other CR 20s on a 3 or better (the 3 is because the Pit Fiend has an AC of 40). You also hit most Great Wyrm Dragons on a 6.

Each attack deals 1d6+16, for an average of 19.5 damage. PBS and other feats or effects improve this drastically, meaning that hitting with 5 or six attacks each round deals upwards of 110 damage (and that assuming you roll crap, you can easily hit with all of your attacks in one round assuming the target is a Balor and you don't roll 1's).

That's how you are supposed to play a Totemist.

Temp.
2009-02-19, 03:36 PM
Now, full BAB people don't get sneak/skirmish/whatever damage, but apparently they manage decent damage output anyways?

See--Full BAB people tend to make that damage happen through Power Attack and ungodly amounts of bow and arrow enhancements. You don't have either going for you. Skirmish and/or Sneak Attack dice are sounding really good to me with this sort of thing...

But if you wanted, there's also Greater Psionic Shot and the ranged Deep Impact-analog. But I think those need Greater Manyshot to apply to a full round's attacks... it'd be pretty feat intensive.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-20, 12:33 AM
Ok, you are way off target. Manticore Belt is not a natural weapon, and effects like Size increases and INA do not apply to it (read the text of the bind, and tell me if you see the words "Natural weapon" anywhere in it).

So you think all the bite attacks in the book aren't natural weapons either? And what kind of attack is it, then? The character on pg. 156 has it listed as "2 manticore belt tail spikes," as if they were, y'know, a weapon. But I'm sure it makes perfect sense that the spikes listed on the Manticore entry in the monster manual are natural weapons, while the tail spikes listed on the Totemist, a class whose main schtick is gaining the natural weapon attacks of animals, is not in fact a natural weapon.

SydneyLosstarot
2009-02-20, 03:09 PM
if you do go for precision damage, there's the Craven feat in Champions of Ruin which adds character level to sneak attack for a minor penalty to saves against fear.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-20, 08:18 PM
So you think all the bite attacks in the book aren't natural weapons either? And what kind of attack is it, then? The character on pg. 156 has it listed as "2 manticore belt tail spikes," as if they were, y'know, a weapon.
It is a weapon. Tail spikes are not defined as a natural weapon. Natural weapons are defined as:


Natural Weapons
Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

Bite
The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

Claw or Talon
The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

Gore
The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

Slap or Slam
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Sting
The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.

Tentacle
The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

"Tail Spikes" are not on that list.


But I'm sure it makes perfect sense that the spikes listed on the Manticore entry in the monster manual are natural weapons, while the tail spikes listed on the Totemist, a class whose main schtick is gaining the natural weapon attacks of animals, is not in fact a natural weapon.

The Manticore creature entry:


Spikes (Ex)
With a snap of its tail, a manticore can loose a volley of six spikes as a standard action (make an attack roll for each spike). This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other. The creature can launch only twenty-four spikes in any 24-hour period.
...does include the spikes, but as an Extraordinary ability, not a natural attack. Since the Manticore Belt mimics this ability, it is the most logical assumption that it, too, functions in the same fashion: as an Extraordinary ability, not a natural attack.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-20, 08:39 PM
Natural weapons are defined as:
...
The most common are summarized below.

The most common, not the only.


The Manticore creature entry:


Feats: Flyby Attack, Multiattack, TrackB, Weapon Focus (spikes)

The Weapon Focus entry:

Weapon Focus [General]
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites
Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Nothing in there about taking Extraordinary Abilities that are not also weapons.

Since the Manticore Belt mimics this ability, it is the most logical assumption that it, too, functions in the same fashion: as an Extraordinary ability that is also a weapon.

But what kind of weapon? Let's look at the definition of a natural attack:


Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.

So the manticore's spikes are a weapon, and part of the creature, therefore are a natural attack.

Since the Manticore Belt mimics this ability, it is the most logical assumption that it, too, functions in the same fashion: as an Extraordinary ability that is also a natural attack.

You might argue that while spikes are a part of the Manticore's body, they are not part of the totemist's body, as they are a soulmeld. That puts you right back at "Bite attacks are not natural weapons." The logic of which I doubt.

And, hey, non sequitur, since we're going entirely by what's on paper, Totemists are not proficient with natural weapons, their weapon and armor line in their class description doesn't include that. By comparison, the Druid's entry in the SRD is very careful to point out that they are proficient with the natural weapons of their wildshaped forms. Ran across that while looking something else up, thought it was interesting.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-20, 08:55 PM
Depending on how feat hungry you are you could grab 2d6 Sneak Attack damage with Assassin's Stance. This is assuming, of course, you can use precision damage on all the attacks.

Also possible through a 1 level Swordsage dip.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-21, 02:07 AM
Depending on how feat hungry you are you could grab 2d6 Sneak Attack damage with Assassin's Stance. This is assuming, of course, you can use precision damage on all the attacks.

Also possible through a 1 level Swordsage dip.

Naw, I'm convinced it's a volley. It even has the word volley in the description, although that's probably just a lucky coincidence. So only precision damage on the first spike. Which, quite frankly, is an entirely reasonable rule.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-21, 12:26 PM
The most common, not the only.Correct.


The Weapon Focus entry:This would not be the first time a creature breaks the rules with its feats.


Since the Manticore Belt mimics this ability, it is the most logical assumption that it, too, functions in the same fashion: as an Extraordinary ability that is also a weapon.

But what kind of weapon? Let's look at the definition of a natural attack:

So the manticore's spikes are a weapon, and part of the creature, therefore are a natural attack.I already did state that it is indeed a weapon, but it is an extraordinary ability, not a natural weapon. If it were a natural weapon, it would appear in the creature's full attack routine in addition to the creature's other natural attacks, not as an or line.


Since the Manticore Belt mimics this ability, it is the most logical assumption that it, too, functions in the same fashion: as an Extraordinary ability that is also a natural attack.It functions in the same fashion, yes, but as its own attack, not as a natural weapon.


You might argue that while spikes are a part of the Manticore's body, they are not part of the totemist's body, as they are a soulmeld. That puts you right back at "Bite attacks are not natural weapons." The logic of which I doubt.

And, hey, non sequitur, since we're going entirely by what's on paper, Totemists are not proficient with natural weapons, their weapon and armor line in their class description doesn't include that. By comparison, the Druid's entry in the SRD is very careful to point out that they are proficient with the natural weapons of their wildshaped forms. Ran across that while looking something else up, thought it was interesting.

Creatures are always proficient with their natural weapons. It's in the FAQ, but not the SRD.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-22, 03:38 AM
This would not be the first time a creature breaks the rules with its feats.

Then it's not the only time they did it. Look at the roper, with weapon focus (strand). But the interesting thing to me is that when it comes to proving the manticore doesn't have a natural weapon we have to assume evidence to the contrary is authorial error, but when it comes to justifying that the manticore belt is the one exception to all the totem melds that grant weapon attacks we can make no assumptions and need things to be spelled out.


in addition to the creature's other natural attacks, not as an or line.

It's in an or line because it is a ranged attack and you cannot mix ranged and melee attacks. Even if it were melee it's under no obligation to appear in the same full attack as the rest of its weapons. Compare the Avoral, whose full attack is 2 claws or 2 wings.

And it appears as an (Ex) because, as a ranged weapon you don't see very often, you need to know some niceties such as its range. Compare the Howler's quills, which, being melee, do show up in the melee side of the full attack line, with the -5 for a secondary natural attack no less, and yet it is listed as an (Ex) because its properties as a weapon are unusual. Which is a synonym for extraordinary.


Creatures are always proficient with their natural weapons. It's in the FAQ, but not the SRD.
I'm not going to argue the point. I expected there to be a clause like that, I just didn't know where to look for it. But since there are all sorts of questions I have, where is this FAQ? The one I found on the WotC website didn't include this question.