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Overlord
2006-09-16, 12:00 AM
This is just an idea I had, and I was wondering what you guys thought of it. Let me know what you think needs improvement (and I know something has to).


The Eldritch Warrior:


Hit die: d10

Bab: Full (same as Fighter)

Saves: Good Fortitude and Will, poor Reflex.

Skills: As a warlock.

Class Features:

The Eldritch Warrior is proficient in the use of light and medium armor, as well as all simple and martial weapons. The Eldritch Warrior can cast spells in light or medium armor without penalty, as well.

Eldritch Blast--Starting at level one, an eldritch warrior gets eldritch blast as a class feature as if he was a warlock of half his eldritch warrior level (minimum one die of damage).

Invocations--Starting at level two, an eldritch warrior gain the ability to use invocations. His invocations known, the rank of invocations he can use, and the effect of the invocations themselves are all based off of his eldritch warrior level divided by two.

The eldritch warrior gains no other warlock abilities except for two:

The ability to use detect magic at will.

The warlock's damage reduction progression.

Tell me what you all think of the class variant idea, please. Thanks! :)

zad101
2006-09-16, 12:16 AM
Well is it a base class or a prestige class?
if its a base class i think its grossly underpowered.
PrC maybe but could use a couple more abilities that connect the physical fighting aspect to the warlock idea.

Overlord
2006-09-16, 01:03 AM
It's a warlock class variant, which means that it's a base class. If it's underpowered, that could just be because the general consensus around here is that the warlock itself is underpowered. I don't really have many ideas on what to add to the class, except maybe the warlock's resistances, or a few of the acolyte of the skin's abilities.

Lord_Arkaine
2006-09-16, 02:06 AM
What you have hear is a featless fighter with highly underpowered and occasionally overrated abilities. Crippled by its own nature, irregardless of the fact that even a pure fighter -with- feats is a poor class that almost invariably gets prestiged out of and once again faces the Arcane Dominance clause that every melee warrior is bound to follow.

This class is in fact weaker than the warlock.

TheOOB
2006-09-16, 05:12 AM
Keep in mind that giving the warlock full BAB, d10 HD, and all good saves still wouldn't make them over-powered. Eldritch blast and the vast majority of invocation just arn't very good, do I really need to be able to use shatter 99.5 times a day?

zad101
2006-09-16, 08:39 AM
one thing my group houseruled in for the warlock is that eldritch blast can be used multiple imes a round if you have a high attack bonus, so if you really want to use this class thats something you could add

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-09-16, 01:32 PM
The new Dragonfire adept is a somewhat improved warlock, look to that for ideas, you can find it on Wizard's site.....

Overlord
2006-09-16, 01:45 PM
Here are some things I could do to beef up the class, if you all think it needs it:

Bump the hit die up to d12.
Give it the warlock's energy resistances, as i had said before.
Give him a few abilities from prestige classes, like the acolyte of the skin.
Give him some auras, like the Dragon Shaman.
Give him some kind of unique ability, although I have no idea what that would be.


Also, he should have good Fortitude and Will saves. I'll fix that.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-09-16, 02:42 PM
My general idea for fixing the WotC warlock is this, 4 skill points instead of 2, eldrtich blast dealing D8s instead of d6's and gain INT mod to damage, and a few more invocation known OR a few bonus feats,

also can EB as a full-attack according ot BAB...(maybe)

For yours i'd advise full EB progression but slower invocations gained.... maybe better DR, some SR and energy resisitance as well..... maybe mettle..... i dunno

Overlord
2006-09-16, 06:29 PM
I'd like to not try to make bold new steps to bring the warlock back into balance with the other classes, since it'll be more reliable to balance it against established classes, rather than reinvent the wheel. I'm aiming for the class to be balanced against the warlock and maybe the fighter, not CoD-Zilla.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-09-17, 10:55 AM
I'd like to not try to make bold new steps to bring the warlock back into balance with the other classes, since it'll be more reliable to balance it against established classes, rather than reinvent the wheel. I'm aiming for the class to be balanced against the warlock and maybe the fighter, not CoD-Zilla.

You are trying to balance it in comparison to two weaker classess...... Beyond that i'm having a little trouble understanding what you are trying to say

Overlord
2006-09-17, 02:30 PM
Well, it's just that you guys seemed like you were trying to seize the opportunity to bring the warlock into balance, instead of measuring the class agaisnt the warlock itself. I'm just worried that if you try to remake the warlock class, the class's balance might be off, but if we balance it against something that wizards has already produced, it's balance can be more accurately measured.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-09-17, 02:47 PM
Well, it's just that you guys seemed like you were trying to seize the opportunity to bring the warlock into balance, instead of measuring the class agaisnt the warlock itself. I'm just worried that if you try to remake the warlock class, the class's balance might be off, but if we balance it against something that wizards has already produced, it's balance can be more accurately measured.

See, if you are trying to make sure yours is balanced, the warlock is a bad comparison, because frankly, the warlock is terrible for alot things, he shines in pretty much only endurance games where resting is minimal, his damage is too low for blasting, alot of his invocations are bad or last 24 hours (which makes unlimited usage kinda...dumb) he doesn't have enough skill points to be a party-face and has a very limited acess to invocations.

So, while it isn't the weakest class, most other classess outshine (CW samurai, i'm lookin' at you)

If you intend for a weaker class (or one for, say, the world's largest dungeon or other endurance campaign) then you should use the warlock as a measure.

If you intend for a non-broken, but not stupidly weak class, then you should measure it against one of those.

Also consider the role you want the class to have when comparing it to another.




Now since you seem intent on comparing your class to the warlock, i'll say this, it's a whole lot weaker, it's damage from EB is terrible, his invocation advancement is pretty bad too. the DR is nice but the Full BAB and increased HD isn't gonna make up for the bonuses the other tank classess get (as a tank) nor is the nigh insignificant invocation progression make him useful as a caster guy. At best he is a 5th wheel character, but a warlock or hexblade or bard would fill the role better

I think your idea would work best as a PrC.... not a base class

Overlord
2006-09-17, 11:41 PM
Yes, the class is, as a whole, weak. I usually try to err on the side of wimpiness, and then go from there. As a prestige class, however, it wouldn't work. You see, the main reason I did this was because I wanted a character concept that would be viable as a warrior who uses warlock abilities from level one, and can remain viable as a front-line warrior throughout his career. Otherwise, I would've just made a warlock 10/fighter 10. Making the class a PrC would mean that either:

1). The character would have to take several levels in warlock, which would mean leaving hime with several d6 hit dice, and a cleric's base attack bonus for several levels as well; neither of these allow him to function as a front-lin combatant, not during his lower levels at least.

2). He would be able to take ten levels in warrior, and ten levels in my PrC. Unfortunately, this would mean leaving the PrC open to characters who have no warlock levels. That means that the class would have to give full warlock abilities along with at least a d8 hit die and a full attack bonus in order to fit my idea of a character with half of a warlock's abilities (I probably didn't convey that idea before, but hey, I am now :) ). Doing that would be way too powerful. At least, that's what I think. If you can come up with some way to make it work, please let me know. :)

fangthane
2006-09-18, 11:59 AM
Give him the ability to cast his invocations without failure % in medium armor (so the correct feat will allow him to cast in full plate if he wants), curtail his invocation selection, maybe rule out (most) non-blast invocations entirely (and possibly give him a modification on the one that lets him attack once and blast with it, so there's a feat for levels 6/11/16 to allow more blasts (the payoff being more feats spent to get them)

Oh, and I'd give him a bonus feat every 5 levels which can be spent either on warrior or specified warlock feats. A weak warrior with weak warlockry isn't that impressive (no offense intended) but with a little bit of synergistic beefing it could be a very interesting class.

Edit - if you're going to make it a PrC, I'd recommend something like a BAB of +7, 10 ranks in knowledge(arcana) and the ability to Eldritch Blast - but that's just me. :)

Overlord
2006-09-18, 01:11 PM
Hmm. Getting rid of invocations removes even more of his versatility. If you thought the warlock was a one-trick-pony, wait until you see a guy with a sword who can cast eldritch blast, but nothing else. At least the fighter has feats.

Oh, you suggested giving him feats? Hmm. Good idea. Why didn't you say so before? :P

Maybe I should give him hideous blow for free. And at level thirteen, maybe he should have the duskblade's ability to deal the blast damage to everyone he hits with a full attack?

And yeah, he probably should have the ability to cast spells in medium armor and be proficient in its use. Come to think of it, I didn't specify that he can use martial weapons, did I? Oops.

I will contemplate these changes, and add the appropriate ones in later.

fangthane
2006-09-18, 02:40 PM
Ahh, hideous blow, that's the one... That one's killer for my NPC gestalt warlock-rogues :)

That Duskblade ability (haven't really read up on those) sounds fairly close to what I'd allow; you can't give it away at level 6 because it'd be WAY too overpowered there, but especially with a 5d6 cap on the Blast I'd allow at least a second attack as of 13th and a third as of 17 or something similar - of course, that depends on what else you might want to remove or add to the class :)

My tendency, though, would be to give him Hideous Blast at 13 with a special note that if he already has it (or later takes it) this becomes a special EW-only "Improved Hideous Blast," where he takes a full attack action and his first two attacks channel a Blast. I'm assuming, anyhow, that the Duskblade probably doesn't receive full 1:1 base attack - in which case the EW shouldn't be able to channel more Hideous Blasts in a round than a Duskblade can at the same level.

For non-blasting invocations, I didn't mean strictly to take all of them out - but I'd tend to think that an Eldritch Warrior would be more interested in personal boosts rather than spell effects per se - so I'd tend to tailor a list around things like Demonic sight and so forth, the things the warlock gets for himself rather than targeted spell effects. It just stands to reason (for me) that someone concentrating less on the warlockry is liable to be more jealous of the benefits it provides.

zad101
2006-09-18, 02:56 PM
okay so are we saying the EW chooses the invocations he wants or should it be assigned at certain levels?
because 17 out of the 35 non eldritch blast affecting invocations are self-affecting so you could just give him one at 1st and 2nd levels and then one more every even level after that so then he has one less invocation than the warlock. so then you could give him the hideous blow ability and the invocation amounts would be even and not overpowered at the same time.
so either you choose which he gets at which levels or he chooses out of a much smaller list

fangthane
2006-09-18, 06:47 PM
Heheh :) that's where I prefer to leave it to its creator's choice, given that I don't necessarily know what flavour was being sought... Something like that might be an option, but that also tends to limit future potential if it's a straight this-per-level progression. You never know but that Wizards might come out with a CA2 and give Warlocks a bit of loving, and this guy gets left in the cold potentially. As currently written his warlock level is half his class level anyhow though, so he'd be limited (as he should be) to substantially fewer invocations anyhow. Having thought about it a bit, I'd give him standard invocs per half his level but I'd also give

Special: A character with 10 levels of Eldritch Warrior channels eldritch energy almost unconsciously; his first melee attack in any round is always treated as if it were modified with Hideous Blast (whether or not he possesses that invocation). At 15th class level this benefit extends to his second attack, and at level 20 his third attack is likewise affected. Any applicable essence invocations may be applied to only one of these attacks (Eldritch Warrior's choice) but must be declared before the attacks are rolled.

zad101
2006-09-18, 09:24 PM
Special: A character with 10 levels of Eldritch Warrior channels eldritch energy almost unconsciously; his first melee attack in any round is always treated as if it were modified with Hideous Blast (whether or not he possesses that invocation). At 15th class level this benefit extends to his second attack, and at level 20 his third attack is likewise affected. Any applicable essence invocations may be applied to only one of these attacks (Eldritch Warrior's choice) but must be declared before the attacks are rolled.
Me likey

so fangthane your saying to give him access to all the invocations? cause i still think some of the less combat oriented ones should be left off of his list.

Overlord
2006-09-18, 10:58 PM
Well, I personally think that giving the class access to all of the invocations is best. Almost all of the invocations on the list either help him in a combat situation, or help him in other ways.

As for the hideous blow ability--here's how I'm going to go it: Since the duskblade ability allows you to cast a touch attack spell, and then have it effect everyone you hit with a full attack in that round, my ability will be similar.

Eldritch Strike: When using hideous blow, you can instead deliver a full attack. Every person who you hit in that round during a full attack is effected by your eldritch blast once. You have to apply hideous blow, a blast shape invocation, to your eldritch blast to use this ability, which means that you cannot use any other blast shape invocation in conjunction with this ability (blast essence invocations are fine, though).

Yeah, something like that.

Fax Celestis
2006-09-19, 03:15 AM
Give him unique invocations. Toned-down True Strike, or custom invocations of Blades of Blood, Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor, Shield, Cloud of Knives, Stretch Weapon, Blink, Blur, Instant Summons, Shillelagh, Haste, Vampiric Touch, Heroism, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Grease...

I suggest looking at the Duskblade, Ranger, Paladin, and Assassin spell lists and turning the ones that stick out to you into invocations.

Lord_Arkaine
2006-09-19, 04:10 AM
New invocations coming in Complete Arcane 2--er, I mean Complete Mage.

Overlord
2006-09-19, 10:09 AM
New invocations coming in Complete Arcane 2--er, I mean Complete Mage.

Arrr, I don' yet be knowin' if I wants to be shellin' out me hard-earned clams for that thing ye call a book. Aye, I think I may have be doin' some pillaging and plundering to afford it. Most o' my pirate crew spend clams on grog...but usually they be payin' with my clams. I aughta have the lot o' them keelhauled!

fangthane
2006-09-19, 04:28 PM
Well, I personally think that giving the class access to all of the invocations is best. Almost all of the invocations on the list either help him in a combat situation, or help him in other ways.

I think I'd still tend to limit things a little just to avoid unforseen munchkinism, but generally that should work about as well anyhow. :)


Eldritch Strike: When using hideous blow, you can instead deliver a full attack. Every person who you hit in that round during a full attack is effected by your eldritch blast once. You have to apply hideous blow, a blast shape invocation, to your eldritch blast to use this ability, which means that you cannot use any other blast shape invocation in conjunction with this ability (blast essence invocations are fine, though).

Yeah, something like that.
I really like the language on this actually... The fact that it's beneficial up against large numbers of direct-melee opponents, but it'll only blast a single opponent once even if he hits 3 times (though it'll hit even on the third attack if the first two miss, which is also sort of nice)

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-09-19, 07:21 PM
Give him unique invocations. Toned-down True Strike, or custom invocations of Blades of Blood, Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor, Shield, Cloud of Knives, Stretch Weapon, Blink, Blur, Instant Summons, Shillelagh, Haste, Vampiric Touch, Heroism, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Grease...

I suggest looking at the Duskblade, Ranger, Paladin, and Assassin spell lists and turning the ones that stick out to you into invocations.

That seems like the best idea to me....