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Bugbeartrap
2009-02-17, 12:05 PM
So for the first time ever, I'll be playing in a Fourth Edition game and I'll be joining a party that has already played one session (stupid conflicting schedules). The party already consists of a dwarf guardian fighter, dragonborn avenging paladin, tiefling infernal warlock, human devoted cleric, and a human controller wizard. Having just made a cool assassin build in 3.5 that I wanted to try out, I decided to add an artful dodger rogue to this party (also to slide some people around). I'm trying to get an assassin feel out of the character, even though there isn't many ways to acheive the death attack effect. So far at 3rd level I have:
Halfling rogue 3
STR 10
CON 12
DEX19
INT 8
WIS 11
CHA 17

Feat: Quick Draw, Defensive Mobility

Powers:
At will- sly flourish, peircing strike
Encounter- Positioning strike, Setup Strike
Daily- Blinding Barrage

At level 4, I'm considering multiclassing to ranger for hunters quarry, or cleric to pick up divine oracle (I heard that it is a good way to approximate an assassin). I'm used to optimizing for 3.5 but 4E is new to me. Any opinions on the suggested feats or paragon paths? Flavor? Thanks!

Limos
2009-02-17, 12:13 PM
First of all play as a Shadar-kai instead, and then take the new cheesetastic racial stuff they get with Chain mastery.

Linkage (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090216a)

They get some crazy new Assassin-esque stuff.

Hal
2009-02-17, 12:15 PM
I'm away from my books right now, but do you have access to Martial Power? There's a lot of options for rogues in there which might help you get the "assassin" feel down. And when you say assassin, do you mean sneaking up behind you and slitting your throat, or putting a crossbow bolt in your temple from behind cover?

Bugbeartrap
2009-02-17, 12:46 PM
Ack! I have no subscription to DDI!

I'm sure my DM will allow martial power abilities, but unfortunately I do not own the book at this time. :smallfrown:
As for the throat-slitting or bolt-hitting? I'm more partial to the throat-slitting.

NecroRebel
2009-02-17, 12:53 PM
You're a Halfling Artful Dodger Rogue. You have 20 AC against opportunity attacks with nonmagic leather armor without Defensive Mobility. You don't need that feat.

Backstabber would be appropriate, both for an Assassin-type as it increases your sneak attack damage and for your role as a striker for the same reason. Nimble Blade is another helpful one, giving a boost to attack rolls when you have combat advantage; for a Rogue who is trying to keep CA at all times, this is quite nice.

Warrior of the Wild, the Ranger multiclass feat, has been errata'ed so it isn't quite so ludicrously amazingly powerful anymore. Now, when you use the Hunter's Quarry feature it grants you the effect only lasts until the end of your next turn, so its damage boost caps out at +2d6 per tier if you hit twice. Still very strong, and probably worth the feat when combined with the free skill training.



Other than that, I'd suggest tactics instead of builds. Try to be stealthy much of the time, as that helps guarentee you get Sneak Attack damage during the first round. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of ways to re-hide at this low level, but that can still be a beneficial tactic to use. Remember that you can use a bluff check as a standard action once per round to hide, and another to gain combat advantage; these can save your life or the life of your party if your potential flankers are down/too far away. Finally, remember that Sly Flourish, at least, is as easily used at range as in melee, so once you have a magic light thrown weapon (like a dagger, which are among the best Rogue weapons anyway) consider use it as an opener rather than getting vulnerable in melee too fast. Your weapon will return to you, and you won't be quite as squishy as you might otherwise.

Bugbeartrap
2009-02-17, 01:09 PM
Thanks NecroRebel. I was planning on starting out combat by using shuriken and sly flourish on enemies that hadnt moved, before going behind enemy lines to take on controllers/healers/leaders/etc. To get through the front lines effectively I tried to get my AoO AC the highest (it was a 24 with armor, dex, cha, halfling, and feat). I didn't know how good that was in 4E. Apparently, I can afford to generalize a bit. I have a question though, is the increase from 2d6 to 2d8 really worth a feat? Thats only an average increase of 2 damage right? and I can only SA once a round.

Wizard_Tom
2009-02-17, 01:31 PM
The 2d8 from backstabber will add up over time, and it's really nice to have if you roll a crit. So in short it is only +2 average damage... but that's better then you're going to get out of most feats.

NecroRebel
2009-02-17, 01:39 PM
Thanks NecroRebel. I was planning on starting out combat by using shuriken and sly flourish on enemies that hadnt moved, before going behind enemy lines to take on controllers/healers/leaders/etc. To get through the front lines effectively I tried to get my AoO AC the highest (it was a 24 with armor, dex, cha, halfling, and feat). I didn't know how good that was in 4E. Apparently, I can afford to generalize a bit. I have a question though, is the increase from 2d6 to 2d8 really worth a feat? Thats only an average increase of 2 damage right? and I can only SA once a round.

In general, monsters have between level+3 and level+6 to hit AC, so the absolute highest to-hit that you're likely to deal with at level 3 is about +11. 22 AC vs. OAs is more than enough, particularly since normal monsters' attack will be closer to +7. Further, remember that your Defenders will be marking enemies as well, so they'll take a -2 penalty and will take an attack/some damage if they attack you, so many monsters simply won't even try an OA if they're marked (assuming your DM realizes how stupid it really is for them to do).

Reference your full damage to figure out if +2 is a significant amount. Using shuriken at range with combat advantage, you deal 3d6 + Dex + Cha with Sly Flourish. That's an average of 17.5, so a 2 damage increase is about a 10% boost. Yes, that's generally worth a feat. Further, since your role is based off of doing as much damage as possible as quickly as possible, damage boosts are quite helpful :smallsmile:

Edit:
The 2d8 from backstabber will add up over time, and it's really nice to have if you roll a crit. So in short it is only +2 average damage... but that's better then you're going to get out of most feats.

Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied maximized in the case of a crit, so critting or not is immaterial.

AgentPaper
2009-02-17, 01:49 PM
Backstabber is probably a better feat than combat mobility, as is something like the light blade feat, but +2 is +2 and always useful. It could very well mean the difference between them having to roll high to hit and not being able to hit unless they roll a 20, and even if they roll that 20 they won't crit. Your 2 defenders can mark 2 enemies, maybe a bit more, but that doesn't help as much when you're fighting larger groups, which are very common in 4E. I'd also recommend looking at the Shadow Assassin paragon path. It makes it so that if an enemy misses you, they take your dexterity modifer in damage. Then just boost up your AC as much as you can, and nothing will want to touch you. And if they do, well, you'll show them how bad an idea that is.

Mando Knight
2009-02-17, 02:12 PM
Thanks NecroRebel. I was planning on starting out combat by using shuriken and sly flourish on enemies that hadnt moved, before going behind enemy lines to take on controllers/healers/leaders/etc. To get through the front lines effectively I tried to get my AoO AC the highest (it was a 24 with armor, dex, cha, halfling, and feat). I didn't know how good that was in 4E. Apparently, I can afford to generalize a bit. I have a question though, is the increase from 2d6 to 2d8 really worth a feat? Thats only an average increase of 2 damage right? and I can only SA once a round.

OA AC is good... if you feel like running up behind the enemy, then hurl shuriken within their reach. Gain Combat Advantage by flanking with your Defender buddy, and start hurling shuriken at no distance. If the enemy takes the OA, they get hurt by the defender, and will have an absurd miss chance. If they don't, they're dead anyway.

Backstabber is even better at higher levels. The SA dice max out at 5d6 normally, and 5d8 with Backstabber. With Sly Flourish, you're dealing almost as much damage with your at-will as the Paladin may be doing with a daily. 2[W]+5d8+Dex+Cha starting at level 21? At-Will? Nasty. (Compared to a Paladin's max of 7[W]+Str once per day...)

Tygell
2009-02-17, 02:17 PM
Edit:

Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied maximized in the case of a crit, so critting or not is immaterial.

Wrong. I'm at work so I can't link the exact answer to this, but they have said that the only damage NOT maximized by a crit is damaged GRANTED by the crit. Sneak attack damage is maximized.

Edit:

Also, if you're going for the assasin flavor, have you considered changing your race to Drow? You'll lose the +2 ac to OAs, but I think Drow racials make you much more like an assassin.

Totally Guy
2009-02-17, 02:32 PM
Wrong. I'm at work so I can't link the exact answer to this, but they have said that the only damage NOT maximized by a crit is damaged GRANTED by the crit. Sneak attack damage is maximized.

I think I asked that in the Q&A thread. There was a bit of a debate but in the end I think that most of us concluded that it did indeed maximise. But it's a complicated one.

Find out how your DM rules for that.

NecroRebel
2009-02-17, 02:37 PM
Wrong. I'm at work so I can't link the exact answer to this, but they have said that the only damage NOT maximized by a crit is damaged GRANTED by the crit. Sneak attack damage is maximized.

Point me to it and I'll believe it. There's nothing in the errata on the subject of critical hits, critical hits themselves only maximize the damage dealt by the attack's damage roll, and from what I can tell sneak attack damage is not part of the attack's damage roll. Therefore, it is not maximized.

...Though it does make my Rogue a bit stronger, since before a critical did basically nothing extra for him :smallsmile:

AgentPaper
2009-02-17, 02:44 PM
The key thing is to read the sneak attack entry carefully. It says the attack "deals extra damage." Thus, it's the same as any other type of damage added to an attack, and is maximized.

fractic
2009-02-17, 02:53 PM
Literal quote from the PHB.



Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it's not automatically maximum damage.


The whole this extra damage part clearly refers only do extra damage that is extra damage because it's crit. Sneak attack damage isn't of this category.

NecroRebel
2009-02-17, 02:58 PM
The key thing is to read the sneak attack entry carefully. It says the attack "deals extra damage." Thus, it's the same as any other type of damage added to an attack, and is maximized.

You apply it after the damage is already rolled, though, thus it isn't :smallsmile:

I can see how the debate can go either way on this one, and since Rogues tend to use weapons with small damage dice, it's probably balanced to do. However, Warlock's Curses do not make the attack deal extra damage; it says "if you damage a cursed enemy, you deal extra damage" preerrata, or "If you hit a cursed enemy with an attack, you deal extra damage" posterrata. Preerrata Rangers didn't even technically need to attack to deal quarry damage, while posterrata the wording on Quarry is the same as on Sneak Attack. So, either Warlocks are an exception, as no matter what your reading it isn't actually the Warlock's attack that is dealing curse damage, or the extra damage dice aren't intended to be maximized.



Q&A and FAQs aren't ever really RAW, you know, and are often mistaken :smalltongue:

Edit:
Literal quote from the PHB.

The whole this extra damage part clearly refers only do extra damage that is extra damage because it's crit. Sneak attack damage isn't of this category.

The question isn't whether or not sneak attacks and related are extra damage for a crit, it's whether or not they're part of the critical hit's damage at all. If they are, they're maximized, or if not they're unaffected.

Tygell
2009-02-17, 03:06 PM
I'll try to find the actual place I read it when I get home. I can't access the WotC sites from work.

I agree the wording is pretty ambiguous. It would make the daggermaster PP a lot worse if you were only maximizing your piddly d4.

NecroRebel
2009-02-17, 03:17 PM
I'll try to find the actual place I read it when I get home. I can't access the WotC sites from work.

Alright, I'd actually be happy to hear that bonus damage dice like those are maximized as it would make my Rogue stronger, but as is I don't think they should be.


I agree the wording is pretty ambiguous. It would make the daggermaster PP a lot worse if you were only maximizing your piddly d4.

Eh, not really... You're still getting the extra damage dice from your magic weapons' critical property three times as often, getting an extra attack once per encounter, and being certain of getting sneak attack damage the next round if they don't drop. It's still a strong PP, just not as far ahead of the others as it was before. Really, if you rule sneak attack damage is multiplied, the Daggermaster's damaging capacity jumps by so much that it blows the others out of the water.

Blackfang108
2009-02-17, 04:58 PM
Edit:

Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied maximized in the case of a crit, so critting or not is immaterial.

Yes, it is.

You maximize ALL dice you would NORMALLY roll on that hit, were it not a critical. This includes, but is not limited to: Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's Curse.

On a crit, you only roll damage dice for High-Crit weapons/features (Mastery feats, enhancement bonus dice, etc.)

EDIT:

Number 11. (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396&p_created=1212604387&p_sid=_KfgUJqj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0yNywyNyZwX3Byb2RzPTUxNCw1MzMmcF9jYXRzPSZ wX3B2PTIuNTMzJnBfY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vyc y5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1)

AgentPaper
2009-02-17, 05:36 PM
It doesn't say that you deal SA damage when you crit. It specifically says that your attack deals extra damage. You're adding your 3d6 or 5d8 or whatever to your attack roll. Thus, it's maximized. I'm really not seeing how you can interpret this any other way. Sure, as a DM you could houserule that SA damage is not maximized, but that's not RAW.

Technically, by RAW, dice from Devestating Critical are also maximized. The critical entry specifically lists "Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons...", and then says that only those added dice are not maximized. So if you get damage dice from anywhere else, then by RAW, those dice are maximized. Of course, it's fairly obvious that RAI means that any extra dice you only get on a critical is added, but that's still not technically by RAW. :smalltongue:

Tygell
2009-02-18, 03:01 PM
EDIT:

Number 11. (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396&p_created=1212604387&p_sid=_KfgUJqj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0yNywyNyZwX3Byb2RzPTUxNCw1MzMmcF9jYXRzPSZ wX3B2PTIuNTMzJnBfY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vyc y5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1)

There it is! Thanks for finding that, Blackfang. It was driving me nuts.

Bugbeartrap
2009-02-18, 03:12 PM
Yay! Maximize my SA dice! Backstabber and Daggermaster are both looking very nice now. I just got a look at some Martial Powers feats, and the feat Reckless scramble looks like a good one because my AoO AC is already so high. Plus with a fighter marking my enemy, its almost like I want to provoke AoO. Is the mobility boost I get from Reckless scramble worth it?

MammonAzrael
2009-02-18, 03:15 PM
Indeed, SA dice are maximized. Podcast question and answer at 3:10. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pod/20080229e20)

:smallsmile:

Bugbeartrap
2009-02-18, 03:42 PM
According to the podcast, then, Devastating Critical does not get Maximized.

NecroRebel
2009-02-18, 11:09 PM
That Q&A answer doesn't actually address this point directly, and in fact you don't technically "normally" roll Sneak Attack et al, so one could very easily argue that you don't maximize it.

The podcast is from several months before 4E even came out, back in February 08, so that's hardly an authoritative source.

For my own interpretation, I will continue to rule that sneak attack dice are not maximized, as even with the most liberal interpretation Warlock's Curse damage is not maximized - the wording is such that that damage is not part of the attack in any way - so due to that and the Daggermaster PP's balance relative to all the other Rogue PPs I feel it is the most reasonable. Thank you all for entertaining my perhaps-mad ramblings, regardless of consensus reached or not reached :smallsmile:

Panda-s1
2009-02-19, 03:01 AM
As someone with a D&DI subscription (actually this came up in a free article, so bear with me) next month they're gonna do an article about assassins, specifically assassins as a multiclass class, kinda like they did with gladiators a few months back.

I have a good feeling they'll bring some kind of version of insta-kill back, though I wouldn't be surprised if it came in the form of a PP.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-19, 12:48 PM
That Q&A answer doesn't actually address this point directly, and in fact you don't technically "normally" roll Sneak Attack et al, so one could very easily argue that you don't maximize it.

Well, I'll throw a final stab at this anyhow:

Only the dice you would normally roll to calculate damage are maximized. If another bonus (like from a weapon or feat) causes you to roll extra damage dice when scoring a critical hit, those dice are rolled as normal.

Now, a reasonable interpretation of "normally roll" is "dice you would roll were the attack not a critical hit."

1st level Warlock (18 CON) with Eldritch Blast and Rod +1
Normal: 1d10 + 4 + 1 +d6
Crit: 1d10 + 4 + 1 +d6 +d6

The extra d6 from your Magic Rod is the only difference between the "normal" and the "crit" damage equations. Therefore, you would maximize the values that appear in both equations:

10+4+1+6 = 21

and roll only the dice which are specially introduced in case of a critical hit.

This does not, by the way, break the game. If anything, it allows Strikers (who are supposed to be the highest damage-dealers in the system) from falling behind 2H Defenders with high [W] attacks. Observe:

11th level Fighter (20 STR) with Maul; Brute Strike
3[2d6] + 5

11th level Rogue (20 DEX) with Dagger; Knock-Out Blow
3[1d4] + 5 + 3d6

On a crit, the Fighter is doing 6d6 (36) + 5 damage (or 41 total). By your interpretation, the Rogue is doing 12 + 5 + 3d6 (or roughly 28 on average). Even if he used a Rapier he's only doing 40 or average; if the Fighter is also using a High Crit weapon, the gap widens further.

Maximized, our good friend the Dagger Rogue is now doing 41 damage with his dagger; easily keeping pace with the Defender but hardly breaking the game. If you do not allow Rogues (or other Strikers) to maximize their Striker damage on a crit, you are putting them at a mechanical disadvantage that was not intended to exist by the designers.

Bugbeartrap
2009-02-19, 02:52 PM
Hmmm... I eagerly await next month, and depending on what I hear of WoTC's new "assassin", I will contemplate a subscription as well. (The whole killing of the free website was one of my biggest gripes about 4E. I used to check the site every day back in 3.5)

Yakk
2009-02-19, 02:55 PM
The ROI from Defensive Mobility isn't as bad as people fear.

Opponents attack at about 5+Level vs AC (this varies a bit).

With 24 AC, even-level opponents hit you 15% of the time, up to 30% for level+3 opponents.

With 26 AC, even-level opponents hit you 5% of the time, up to 20% for level+3 opponents.

Level+3 opponents are relatively rare -- basically, defensive mobility will about halve the damage you take from OAs due to moving (not shifting) past opponents.

On the other hand, backstabber will bring you from an average of ~13 to 16 damage to ~15 to 18 damage. A 13% to 15% boost in damage output on basic attacks (but less on higher end attacks). Backstabber gives the best ROI at level 1, and it falls as you gain levels.

Nimble Blade both increases your damage output by 7% to 11%, and lets you land "hit" effects more reliably. Nimble Blade ROI is pretty steady.

Rogues, sadly, are not that good at attacking artillery / leaders / controllers solo. The problem is they lack ways to generate their own combat advantage, and they need combat advantage to deal their damage.