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afroakuma
2009-02-17, 05:14 PM
It has become necessary for me to analyze the parameters of limited wish and wish as well as craft a middle ground.

Other than the effects explicitly laid out in the spell descriptions, what sorts of powers, both permanent and transitive, should be within the conventional boundaries of each spell, and what would be the appropriate powers of a halfway point?

Keld Denar
2009-02-17, 05:36 PM
Honestly, I never allow anything on Lim Wish except what is explicitly stated. Thats just the way I do it. Lim Wish is still a very potent spell, and still definitely worth it.

Maxymiuk
2009-02-17, 05:39 PM
Other than the effects explicitly laid out in the spell descriptions, what sorts of powers, both permanent and transitive, should be within the conventional boundaries of each spell

The simplest answer is, "anything the GM allows."


and what would be the appropriate powers of a halfway point?

Wish has a certain... shall we say, notoriety. Popular wisdom has it that once this spell enters play, players will attempt to get away with everything they can, while the GM will attempt to screw them over if he deems the wish too disruptive to the game. Someone wishes for, say, 1,000,000 gold pieces, the GM says "Done, but this gold belonged to an Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon. Now he's after you." This in turn leads to wishes that take up two pages of very careful wording designed to negate any possible unforseen consequences. It turns into an escalating warfare, silliness happens, and finally the GM issues a blanket ban on the spell.

If you want to head off the entire brouhaha, I suggest that you sit down with your players and work out an agreement. Something to the effect of "I promise not to screw you over, if you promise not to abuse the spell's versatility". So as long as they have a good reason to need a Wish, don't request something completely outlandish, nor attempt to wreck your campaign, then go ahead and give them what they want.

afroakuma
2009-02-17, 05:50 PM
The simplest answer is, "anything the GM allows."

Ineffective, as I'm trying to design a midpoint spell.


Wish has a certain... shall we say, notoriety. Popular wisdom has it that once this spell enters play, players will attempt to get away with everything they can

Not a large concern, I have limits established on that.


while the GM will attempt to screw them over if he deems the wish too disruptive to the game.

Likely in all instances for the circumstance, but again, not the point.


If you want to head off the entire brouhaha, I suggest that you sit down with your players

Again, this has nothing to do with players. I'm trying to determine, as far as gameplay effects are concerned, what would be fair equivalents of their current powers, and what would fit in the niche between. Are we talking a permanent +1 insight bonus to AC? A few extra skill points? Hard and fast values for conjurable (non-summoned, created) goods?

Person_Man
2009-02-17, 05:55 PM
My PCs know that I generally ignore the description of Wish, and that they can do anything they want with the spell, with the understanding that there is a direct Monkey's Paw correlation between the abusiveness of their attempted Wish and the results of their actual Wish. For example:

Scenario 1

PC: I'd like to turn this pile of 25,000 gold into an +5 Sword of Dragon Bane, so that I can use it to slay the Evil Dragon. I don't have the time to go buy it, and I'd I'm fine with trading some XP for the excess gp cost.

DM: Done.


Scenario 2

PC: I'd like to gain full knowledge of every defense in the Evil Dragon's Lair, and the spells known by the Evil dragon, and the magic items possessed by the Evil dragon, and all enemies in the employ of the Evil Dragon.

DM: OK, here's a list. (Leave out that the Evil Dragon just used a scroll to contact an elder Evil, which he is currently baragining with for more power. If the PCs move in quickly to confront the Evil Dragon, then it will happen while he is still bargaining, and the spell will most likely be lost. If they take a week to prepare and buff before moving in, then they're in for trouble.)


Scenario 3

PC: I'd like a Ring of Three Wishes, so I can defeat the Evil Dragon.

DM: It appears. Attached to Tiamat. She looks pissed.

Hat-Trick
2009-02-17, 06:06 PM
Isn't Tiamat female?

Anyway, I like what Person man is getting to, just slap on something to warn PCs that things still come at a price. Essentially, the wizard is powerful enough to bend space/time/ universe/whatever, but it has a tendency to snap back on his nose when he lets go.

afroakuma
2009-02-17, 06:11 PM
...and again, everyone completely misses the point.

I am aware of the classic DM/PC battle of wits when it comes to abuses of wish. That has nothing to do with my question.

My question is, given the example effects of both wish and limited wish, what are some basic mechanical effects with roughly equivalent value, and what sorts of effects could reasonably be placed in a middle-ground spell?

mostlyharmful
2009-02-19, 03:16 AM
Ltm Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) - Building a large building, Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) - Building a Catle,
Ltm Wish - learn a secret of the BBEG, Wish - Experiance the formative points of the BBEGs life as though watching tv.
Ltm Wish - Blow a hole in an army, Wish - kill part of an army and ressurrect them as angry zombies
Ltm Wish - shift you to the shadow plane, Wish - Shift your whole group to a specific point in an inaccessable plane
Ltm Wish - Break a powerful curse, Wish - Break an Epic curse (maybe, a bit, partially anyway.....:smallwink:)
Ltm Wish - Make friends with the Djinni, Wish - Mindrape the Djinni
etc..... You should be able to find somewhere between these for a hypertheticall 8th level Medium Wish, but really what you're asking for is a hard one. The effects of wish are DM, group and game world dependant for what is and isn't going to wreak the story. These are just mine.

elliott20
2009-02-19, 03:30 AM
well, the number portions are pretty clearly laid out so let me give it a try



Lesser Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A lesser wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -8 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 8th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 1000 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 5,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost

1000 XP or more (see above).

I think that makes a decent base. Since you're talking about midway point between wish and limited wish, I say now go to the wish spell, and pick a couple of the powers there.

I'd say take these three

# Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
# Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
# Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

Fizban
2009-02-19, 09:58 AM
For simplicity, I'd say to start that permanent bonus effects are only possible with a full Wish unless you're just permanancy-ing another spell. I'd say a Wish can't provide any permanent bonuses other than inherent, but I'd allow inherent bonuses to AC, saves, certain attack rolls (melee/ranged/spells/etc), and anything else that's normally priced at or below bonus^2*2,000gp.

Limited Wish should be able to create mundane objects up to 1,500gp, and an in between wish should likewise have xp*5gp as well. Conjuring base materials is a tricky proposition, since the creation spells are very small, so they'd probably be based on price of construction, if you have a source (the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook could be extrapolated). I'd allow any wish to create a magic item of equal value as well, though under the RAW Wish that always costs extra xp. I agree with the transmuting example above for converting current wealth into useful items: maybe allow Limited Wish to transmute/trade for half (as if you sold it and bought something) and full Wish for a direct trade. Or add half/full amount to the free buffer for what you're creating.

It's a horrible way of wording it mechanically, but you can easily extrapolate limits by taking the gp limit and using the magic item rules with price doubled for permanent effects, which will probably be far underpowered.I really like the idea of permanent spells as a benchmark, but there's no easy way I can think of to do it.
For other effects, savage species allows a full Wish with a spellcraft check to change you into another creature: I'd allow it without one while applying LA normally. In fact, I'd allow a permanent race change with Limited Wish as long as you stay within creature type.

Gross physical alterations are a nice idea: I wish for wings, I wish for gills, etc. I'd allow Limited Wish to give you the abilities of a +1 LA creature for free without losing your old abilities, and a full Wish could go up to +3. This is actually just an extension of race changing as above, with the price gauged based LA buyback, though now that I think about it, you could buy a scroll much sooner. However, the abilities of a +3 LA creature really aren't so crazy, so I'm guessing it wouldn't unbalance the game much. I know everyone hates the LA system, but everyone also seems to agree that LA buyback is pretty balanced, so there's that.

A Limited Wish can currently cause a creature to take a -7 on it's next saving throw. It could probably give the same -7 to the next attack roll, AC against an attack, or SR against the next spell. These stats and rolls are most definitely not equal, so it would probably be better to pare the list down to those that are, and save the others for higher level effects, or at least group them under a different bonus/penalty/duration.

A full Wish can retroactively force a reroll, a Limited Wish might be able to proactively force a reroll: instead of +/- 7s, you could use, "may force the creature to reroll it's next ___ before the results are determined, must take the result of the new roll".

Well there's some ideas anyway, not useful for a middle wish spell, which seems to be your main objective, but might be useful anyway. I definitely like the lesser/full aspect, and I think Limited Wish could use a lot more nifty stuff like full Wish, but Limited, of course. With the hefty xp cost, they should be able to do a lot more than just duplicate other spells. Die manipulation feels good, but it ridiculously easy for some other characters, and money changing isn't really worth it. One nice duplication is Psychic Chirurgery from Limited Wish to change your feat/skill/spell loadout for multiple levels at once on command. With that in mind, you might allow temporary use of a feat or spell, or even pull out some low level easy qualification PrC abilities.

afroakuma
2009-02-19, 05:31 PM
Anyone concur with that/have points to add?

Tehnar
2009-02-19, 05:42 PM
I strongly oppose allowing wish to grant a free level adjustment. Some races are just too good to obtain at a cost of a single wish.

I allow my players to use wishes to give a permanent inherent bonus to a skill, and/or a inherent feat. One to five wishes cast in succession give 1 to 5 bonus to a single skill, while 3 wishes in succession grant a single feat (that the user must meet all prerequisites for). Only one skill and one feat per character.

Also I would consider the caster of the wish to determine the power. Efreeti and mortal casters might be able to grant pretty petty wishes, while demon lords, dukes of hell, or whatever powerfull entities could make greater powered wishes come true.

Fizban
2009-02-20, 12:53 AM
Agreed on allowing skills, though I'd say the exorbiant cost of wishes and relative ease of boosting skills means that there's no need to cap the number of skills you could wish for. I've considered the idea of allowing feat wishes myself, but there's not much you can compare them with, since compared to random numerical bonuses, they're priceless.

I of course have to ask what races are so powerful for their LA that they shouldn't be Wish-able. Remember, by the time you can cast wish, LA+3 races could have been bought off, and aside from raw ability boosts, nothing they have will be more powerful than what you could buy. Before you can cast wish, getting one will be a significan't portion of your wealth, which could be spent on items to duplicate many abilities. I admit that going raptoran for free flight might be cheap, but just as with magic items, by the time you can get it, you're practically required to have it. Going half-dragon for the free +8 str is pretty extreme, but again, it's only a +8 to str, which you could easily dredge up from another magic item or splatbook spell.

Still, I could be persuaded down from +3 LA: how about Limited Wish for +0 and full Wish for +2? Rereading what I wrote, adding the abilities is actually a pretty bad idea now that I think of it, since you're actually ending up with more abilities than the creature you're copying from. Maybe restrict it to one special quality/attack per wish, so you can't just jump ability scores?