OOTS #632 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Rawhide]

It seems like the advanced Time Stop effect has spilled over onto the message board...

[David Argall]

Yes... how out of the question is our donating for more lines?

On the comic, These are the same demons/fiends as in 380. So we know they do know about the Snarl, and Qarr didn’t, up until now.

[Wildrose]

*taps screen* Is this thing on?

I'm loving this arc so much - and I'm so worried for V! This is not going to go well....

[hamishspence]

It looks like the same guys Sabine was reporting to.

Nice concept- demons, daemons (yugoloths) and devils, working together.

[Guts]

Interesting. I hope V heard what the 3rd fiend said or demands some proof that what their giving it is useful.

[Xandro]

Oh-oh ...

This is so going downhill for V's soul.

I'm sure even if he will be able to save his/her beloved, (s)he will loose them by his/her own uncontrolled powers ...

[Tom90deg]

Hmm...I may be wrong, but isn't that the group of Fiends that Sabine was dealing with way back when she reported the existance of the Snarl to her overlords?

[Ezekiel Moon]

Looks like it's time for a metaphorical deal with the devil, only I'm stopping this Futurama reference right here.

[2xMachina]

Wow, nice.

The IFCC directors are at least funny. Anyone wanna guess which is the diabolic, demonic and daemonic being? Also, I wonder the name for each of them (their cards are jumbled)

EDIT: First page! I just registered.

[fishboy]

OK, I had to end lurkermode and register to beg: someone please do a "jokes you didn't get" for this strip.....I feel I missed a whole lot of references (about music business?) probably due to being a "dang furinner".
Thanks for all the laughs!

[archon_huskie]

Aye that is odd. Usually posts come in much faster.

So what does My Three Fiends reference?


More importantly, who are they and what is their agenda.

[chiasaur11]

Is there a pun with the demon names?

It feels like there should be somehow.

[Elfey]

Eh, taking the Demon/Devil thing another step further? I think the IFFC is a nice addition, making it so the blood war won't screw up the dang plot.

This does, however bring up questions. V is a powerful PC whose destined to do something with the gates and the Snarl. The Gods know about the snarl. I'm assuming the Evil Gods are running the forces of evil and the Demons/Devils etc.

The only evil god that we know wants to mess with the snarl is The Dark One. But is that completely true? Loki or one of the other Evil gods may have their own plans for it, perhaps cut down on the competition?

Otoh, I'd assume at least some of the evil ones are not idiots and want to survive. I look forward to the new players we're about to see. And I really wanna know what others in V's demographic think about power...

[xelliea]

i think V needs to think about this!

[TheBST]

See, this is what I love about this comic.

The idea of the IFCC is gold- it could probably sustain an entirely new comic. Hell, I'd visit twice a week. And that's just one throwaway gag in one strip of OoTS.

Bravo.

[Hrairoo]

Nice one, giant!

I can feel the plot ramping up! I have a feeling, though, that we're going to have a scene change soon...:smallsigh:

[[TS] Shadow]

The comic today was great. It's awesome how lighthearted selling your soul has become.

[Hrairoo]

It seems like the advanced Time Stop effect has spilled over onto the message board...

I'd actually expect about three pages of posts by now...:smallconfused:

[fractal]

And here we learn that Sabine's supervisors include both demons and devils, so we still don't know which arrow hurt her.

[dps]

Usually posts come in much faster.


If other people are having as much trouble accessing the forums as I am, it's no wonder there aren't more posts.

[Raenir Salazar]

"Blood war what is it good for!"

"Good God's Y'all!"

I loved this one. The song goes "WAR! What is it good for? Absolutely, NOTHING! Good Gods Y'all!" so this is a funny take on it.

But ya, WOOHOO! "I Knew It!" moments!

I predicted the Time Stop effect, someone called Sabine meeting these people and them being involved!

Okay so we have a Polymorphed Pit Fiend, Balor, and whatever the Yugoslavia equivalent is.

[Myou]

Wow, the IFCC guys are a great trio, and a neat concept! :3

Well played, Rich, well played. :o

[Hrairoo]

If other people are having as much trouble accessing the forums as I am, it's no wonder there aren't more posts.

Somehow, I doubt that stops regular posters to this forum...:smallwink:

[RMS Oceanic]

And indeed Sabine's Bosses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) stake their claim in Vaarsuvius.

I suspect they've incercepted this message and are acting of their own accord...

[hamishspence]

or, a Duke of hell, a minor demon lord, and a yugoloth lord- there is a tier between pit fiend and archdevil.

Ultroloth is the highest ranked of the non-unique yugoloths.

[Saint Nil]

Is there a pun with the demon names?

It feels like there should be somehow.

Lee

Nero

Cedrik

I didn't see it till someone pointed it out. Nice one Giant.:smallbiggrin:

[Sequinox]

Nice. Heh.

I misread Nero's name as Nerd the first 2 times I read it in my triple-take. Heh. :smalltongue:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Aye that is odd. Usually posts come in much faster.

So what does My Three Fiends reference?


More importantly, who are they and what is their agenda.

My Three Fiends is a reference to "My Three Sons," an OLD sitcom.

What is their agenda? Probably preventing the Snarl from destroying the universe again... No Universe, no souls to torment!

[2xMachina]

"Blood war what is it good for!"

"Good God's Y'all!"

I loved this one. The song goes "WAR! What is it good for? Absolutely, NOTHING! Good Gods Y'all!" so this is a funny take on it.

But ya, WOOHOO! "I Knew It!" moments!

I predicted the Time Stop effect, someone called Sabine meeting these people and them being involved!

Okay so we have a Polymorphed Pit Fiend, Balor, and whatever the Yugoslavia equivalent is.

It can be a double entrende too.

For who is the blood war good for?

For the Good Gods of course.

[Assassin89]

I thought that those three fiends looked familiar. As for Sabine, it could be an intern position. Evil alignment puns strike again.

I guess Lee is a devil, Cedrik is a demon, and Nero is some neutral evil outsider.

This is apparently a group that prefers the advancement of the evil aligned planes rather than fighting amongst each other.

[slurpz]

Ah, and the forums die again.

More advertisement bashing. :smallsmile:

[Hrairoo]

Nice. Heh.

I misread Nero's name as Nerd the first 2 times I read it in my triple-take. Heh. :smalltongue:

Haha, same here!:smallbiggrin:

[Selene]

Lee

Nero

Cedrik

I didn't see it till someone pointed it out. Nice one Giant.:smallbiggrin:

... I still don't see it. :smallconfused:

edit: Duh. Nevermind. I just woke up. LOL.

[Andre Fairchilde]

I'm expecting the unexpected; like Roy coming back mid-soul signing- alive, armed, and angry - and sending these three back to hell.

Sometimes our friends have to save us from ourselves.


I thought that those three fiends looked familiar. As for Sabine, it could be an intern position. Evil alignment puns strike again.

I guess Lee is a devil, Cedrik is a demon, and Nero is some neutral evil outsider.

This is apparently a group that prefers the advancement of the evil aligned planes rather than fighting amongst each other.

Nero would be a Daemon.

[Assassin89]

... I still don't see it. :smallconfused:

Lee - Lawful Evil
Nero- Neutral Evil
Cedrik - Chaotic Evil

All of the evil alignments on the lawful-chaotic axis.

[hamishspence]

Does that suggest The Giant is going with earlier style naming here- yugoloths as Daemons? That was their name in early editions.

[Calmness]

:smalleek:

They are stopping the Blood War? Wouldn't that screw over like, the rest of the universe?

[hamishspence]

potentially. If we assume evil souls are filtering in faster than Good ones (plausible but not definite), and the only reason the Forces of Evil don't multiply rapidly is the war (remember, when a fiend dies on its own plane, it dies for real) then ending the war would mean all evil sides start increasing in numbers, and possibly in power as well.

Asmodeus's Plan in Fiendish Codex 2 is to broker a truce with the Abyss, topple the heavens with them, then turn on the demons.

If the Council actually succeeded in their aims, the Good Planes have reason to be worried. However, they may not have as much influence as all that.

[SteveMB]

What is their agenda? Probably preventing the Snarl from destroying the universe again... No Universe, no souls to torment!

Perhaps they (like Xykon and Redcloak) hope to gain control of the Snarl to use as a weapon. If nothing else, it would be a sort of "Doomsday Device" deterrent against anybody pushing their backs too hard against the wall.

[Keshay]

Does that suggest The Giant is going with earlier style naming here- yugoloths as Daemons? That was their name in early editions.

Not necessarily an earlier naming convention, just more basic.

Devils are Baatezu
Demons ate Tanar'ri
Daemons are Yugoloths.

I assume Giant went with the more familiar terms because not everyone who reads is terribly familiar with D&D and woudl be confused by the in-game names.

[ss49]

Does that suggest The Giant is going with earlier style naming here- yugoloths as Daemons? That was their name in early editions.

If yugoloth is 4th edition, sure.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Don't worry too much about the Blood Wars being shut down. These guys are a little grassroots association, without much pull. I mean, when was the last time a small-timer ever went anywhere in politics? :smallbiggrin:

Grassroots never work. You need the orginizational power of the major heavy hitters.

[hamishspence]

yugoloths were 3.5, 3.0, and possibly 2nd ed as well- Daemon is their name in even earlier editions- but the term isn't used in 3.0 and 3.5.

There is no generic term for the fiends of Gehenna and Hades- but yugoloths are one type of fiend native to those two planes.

4th ed actually merged them with demons- so no more separate category.

Baatezu and tanar'ri are subcategories- Devil and Demon refer to the outsider natives of the two Planes (Nine Hells and abyss)

Non-baatezu devils include the imp, the chain devil, and the hellcat.
Non-tanar'ri demons include the quasit, the bebilith, and the yochol.

[RNG]

FINALLY the plot is moving SOMEWHERE. Now let's not dwell infinitely on this little time-stopped island and actually GET THINGS DONE.

[Balok]

Does anyone remember the number of the strip where V asked how to achieve ultimate power, and the Oracle told him to "say the right (some number) of words to the right being at the right time?"

[hamishspence]

331: "For the Future"

[Saint Nil]

Personally, I hope to see more gags like "Based on typical wild imaganings of your demographic":smalltongue:

I hope the next one is full of double-speak like that.:smallbiggrin:

[Raenir Salazar]

It can be a double entrende too.

For who is the blood war good for?

For the Good Gods of course.

thats what I implied.

[Karui_Kage]

yugoloths were 3.5, 3.0, and possibly 2nd ed as well- Daemon is their name in even earlier editions- but the term isn't used in 3.0 and 3.5.

There is no generic term for the fiends of Gehenna and Hades- but yugoloths are one type of fiend native to those two planes.

4th ed actually merged them with demons- so no more separate category.

Baatezu and tanar'ri are subcategories- Devil and Demon refer to the outsider natives of the two Planes (Nine Hells and abyss)

Non-baatezu devils include the imp, the chain devil, and the hellcat.
Non-tanar'ri demons include the quasit, the bebilith, and the yochol.

Don't forget, Paizo brought back Daemons as NE outsiders in their Pathfinder RPG (http://www.paizo.com). Their update to D&D 3.5

[Raenir Salazar]

yugoloths were 3.5, 3.0, and possibly 2nd ed as well- Daemon is their name in even earlier editions- but the term isn't used in 3.0 and 3.5.

There is no generic term for the fiends of Gehenna and Hades- but yugoloths are one type of fiend native to those two planes.

4th ed actually merged them with demons- so no more separate category.

Baatezu and tanar'ri are subcategories- Devil and Demon refer to the outsider natives of the two Planes (Nine Hells and abyss)

Non-baatezu devils include the imp, the chain devil, and the hellcat.
Non-tanar'ri demons include the quasit, the bebilith, and the yochol.

I was always curious what they sort of evil outsiders were being used in War of the Spider queen novels when Vhaerun hired some demons from some place that had that wierd name, then I read FCI&II and then I knew about the third neutral side.

[Kish]

Does anyone remember the number of the strip where V asked how to achieve ultimate power, and the Oracle told him to "say the right (some number) of words to the right being at the right time?"
Alas, yes, some people do remember that, even though the correct answer is "there is no such strip." :smallyuk:

There is, however, a strip (#331) where the Oracle says "by saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." Okay, I'm a curmudgeon, but we already have people trying to cram every four-word construction to come out of Vaarsuvius' mouth into the prophecy without compounding the problem by treating the prophecy as modular.

[Athaniar]

Demons ate Tanar'ri


Of course they did, they are Chaotic Evil, after all.

Also, intriguing strip. Will V take the final step towards fiendishness? Probably.

[ref]

The plot thickens. Vaarsuvius is pushing to deal with the LE-NE-CE out of desperation, and this cannot end well... Vaarsuvius is definitely down the path of the Boomer now.

We'll see what's next. And all the while, strip 666 is getting closer.

[Trixie]

Okay, and that part about arms hurting? :E

Someone should totally cast resurrect spell at the "Jokes you didn't get" thread.

[Tensu]

I assume Giant went with the more familiar terms because not everyone who reads is terribly familiar with D&D and woudl be confused by the in-game names.

of course the effort may add to the confusion. daemons are pretty different in concept to demons and devils.

[Zeku]

It's an old standup gag. (Imagine Rodney Dangerfield or Groucho Marx speaking)

"Hey! I just flew up from Cincinatti, and boy are my arms tired!"

These days, it's kind of in a different category: a really old joke, and if anybody actually used it would make the audience groan. It was probably funny the first time someone used it. The kind of thing that only gets remembered because of how dumb it is.

[Saint Nil]

^-Ah, my oldest enemy, the ancient clan of dwarven ninjas.

Okay, and that part about arms hurting? :E

Someone should totally cast resurrect spell at the "Jokes you didn't get" thread.

I just flew here from (location here) and boy are my arms hurting!!

The original joke, where you claim to have flew(like a bird does, tiring your arms) when you flew(in an airplane).

Classic horrible comedian joke that the Giant was making fun of.

[Doug Lampert]

Okay, and that part about arms hurting? :E

Someone should totally cast resurrect spell at the "Jokes you didn't get" thread.

Moderately old joke for a comic who's just travelled a substantial distance to be at a show: "I just flew in from Yonkers and boy are my arms tired."

Implication being that the comic flew in by flapping his arms.

Problem is the outsider in question muffs the setup line since there's no way "transfered my conciousness from the lower planes" should make your arms tired unless the somatic components are really over the top (and spell-like abilities have no somatic components in any case).

Presumably the outsider muffing the line IS the joke, I found it amusing, but then I'm familiar with the original.

(Multiply ninja'd due to slow board.)

[Horatio@Bridge]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

[hamishspence]

I think there is a view that demons and devils were actually derived from the older daemons- when the idea moved to a diferent culture, the beings were portrayed as more evil.

in 3.5, the predecessors of the baatezu and the tanar'ri as inhabitants of those particular planes (the Ancient Baatorians and the Obyriths) are suggested as descended from the baernoloths- really ancient yugoloths.

so, precursors of modern demons and devils are suggested to be descended from precursors of yugoloths (daemons)

[Faramir]

Moderately old joke for a comic who's just travelled a substantial distance to be at a show: "I just flew in from Yonkers and boy are my arms tired."

Implication being that the comic flew in by flapping his arms.

Problem is the outsider in question muffs the setup line since there's no way "transfered my conciousness from the lower planes" should make your arms tired unless the somatic components are really over the top (and spell-like abilities have no somatic components in any case).

Presumably the outsider muffing the line IS the joke, I found it amusing, but then I'm familiar with the original.

(Multiply ninja'd due to slow board.)

I'm also assuming he's the chaotic one so it makes sense that way.

[hamishspence]

however, he also gives the legalese speech. So I can't tell for sure which is which from the info given.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but am I the only one who saw Terry Pratchett's Auditors in these three guys? Was probably mentioned when they first appeared to Sabine, though. :smalltongue:

[Hatu]

It seems like the advanced Time Stop effect has spilled over onto the message board...

Guess the IFCC is just that powerful. :-p

I still don't like where this arc is leading, but this comic was at least funny. That definitely helps.

-H

[Mr. Pin]

It seems like the strip is moving so slowly... Obviously, this was a well-written and rather funny strip, but I had expected V to be getting powers and killing stuff by now.

Still, it only seems slow because of the comic-by-comic format, I'm sure. Great comic, and I can't wait for the next one.

[Tingel]

Based on the little information we can glean about the trio of fiends from this strip, my guess is that Cedric is the one with the purple eyes and font, Nero is orange and Lee is yellow.

Cedric opens with a joke, and while he shouts "good gods, y'all!" he seems to be flailing his arms around. I know this is very adventurous guesswork, but he strikes me as the most "chaotic" of the three. And since Cedric the demon is standing on the right, Lee the devil should be standing on the left, with the neutral daemon Nero inbetween. Lee's quote about "special permission to intercede on this account" even makes him sound as if he is rather used to bureaucratic expressions, which fits my assumption that he is the Lawful one.

I know, it's not much. But this forum is used to wild theories, so here you go.

[bluewind95]

I'm still hoping that V can both, save his/her family and keep his/her soul.

[Horatio@Bridge]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

[Zael Zuran]

I seem to recall way back in first edition AD&D's DM's guide, there being a little chart with the colors of the alignments. I don't have a copy here anymore, and can't find it anywhere online. (If you can confirm this, thanks. That book was raw chaos. But it was worth the hassle just to have characters able to rampage through Gamma World and Boot Hill :)

But I really seem to remember that Chaotic Evil was purple, again implying Cedrik as the purple one.

Lee should be the one referencing: "We got special permission," and "waiting on final approval."

Nero is likely the one doing all the talking about cooperation.

And (the presumed) Cedrik appears content to tell jokes, implying he needs to take time on deals, and also tossing out a completely random bit of legalese that serves no purpose but to say: "You will like this. If not? Not my problem." Its perfectly fitting for demons to create labyrinthine laws they have no intention of observing themselves.

As a business model, they probably work as follows.

Nero is the likely manager, out of necessity, stressing common ground and goals.

Lee is the accountant / lawyer.

Cedrik, the salesman, in charge of the actual temptation. Not likely to matter much, since V is an aggressive buyer based on V's immediate need.

[Silverraptor]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!:smallbiggrin:

I loved this comic! Of course you'd expect that Hell would go into bureacracy after the poetic versions of creatures tearing stuff apart. Anyways the pun with the names were the best part. Me and SandyCaesar were cracking up when we read that together and were cracking up. Too bad the forum was still broken at the time. Or we would have said something.

One more thing. What's the difference between Demon and Daemon instead of the extra "a"?

[Liriel]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

Glad I'm not the only one who found the purple text difficult to read. :smallconfused:

[Andre Fairchilde]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!:smallbiggrin:


One more thing. What's the difference between Demon and Daemon instead of the extra "a"?

In 2d ed it used to be the Demon was CE while Daemon's were NE.

Things have changed with 3.0, 3.5, and now 4.0.

[hamishspence]

in D&D, daemon was old name for what eventually came to be known as yugoloths- NE rather than CE. They were mercenaries- tended to be allies of the drow in old adventures- the Against the Giants series.

I'm not positive, but I think the name was changing from daemon to yugoloth, even in 2nd ed. the first 3.0 hardback source with them was Manual of the Planes.

in mythology- daemons were guardian spirits. Phillip Pullman went with this version. I think they were portrayed as evil much later, then the name changed- to demons- and they became associated with fallen angels.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

Sure, why not. Of course, I'll probably be ninja'd a dozen times before I finish typing...

Panel 3: I just transfered my consiousness from the Lower Planes and boy, are my arms tired!

Panel 4: A community-based grassroots organization dedicated to building bridges between the diabolic, daemoinic and demonic populations.

Panel 6: Good gods, y'all!

Panel 7: We don't like being rushed when making a deal.

Panel 9: *Based on typical wild imagining of previous customers matching your demographic profile. Additional terms and restrictions may apply.

At least, that's how I make them out.

[Zael Zuran]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!:smallbiggrin:
One more thing. What's the difference between Demon and Daemon instead of the extra "a"?

Back when they first showed up? (The D series modules or original Fiend Folio, I think. Not sure which was actually published first, offhand.)

They were Neutral Evil. Plus, their magic resistance was scaled to spell level, if I'm remembering right. Probably minor differences regarding damage type resistances and innate abilities.

Over time, along with the Fiendish name changes and Blood War stuff in 2nd edition, they were given some more cultural definition. The original Monster Manual II had a chunk of information on them. 2nd ed Manual of the Planes and Planescape probably do them more justice, but I have neither at my disposal.

[Mauve Shirt]

So V was preapproved by Sabine's superiors... Fascinating!

[Zael Zuran]

So, what do these three see as an opportunity in the snarl?

A chance to wipe out those too stubborn to cease the Blood War, so they can proceed with their new agenda?

Even professional deceivers are frequently deceived. Most often by their own ambitions.

[Porthos]

So V was preapproved by Sabine's superiors... Fascinating!

This also might explain how a CE Succubus (if Sabine really is a Succubus) sees nothing wrong, and in fact is quite happy to be working with a LE Human. If indeed she is with an organization that is trying to curtail the Blood War, then it makes perfect sense.

AIUI, that was one of the biggest objections toward Sabine being a Succubus. I.e. her superiors wouldn't like it if she was so chummy with someone who was LE, nevermind spending so much time and resources on him. Now this comic, in one fell swoop, sets aside that argument.

'course because Sabine works for the IFCC, we still can't tell which type of outsider she is. In fact all the IFCC does, in true Lost fashion, is add more questions while answering old ones.

Well done, Rich. :smallcool:

[Prak]

Hmm...I may be wrong, but isn't that the group of Fiends that Sabine was dealing with way back when she reported the existance of the Snarl to her overlords?

They certainly look it. I do like the idea of an organization of fiends who see the blood war as pointless, it makes evil seem sensible, for once, rather than it's usual "Saturday Morning Cartoon" villiany...

I think I've figured out what kind of fiend each one is...
Purple eyes is a demon (random jokes and interjections, means he's representing the random portrayal of chaos, which is par for this course...)
Orange eyes is a yugoloth (he's the one that brings up the slogan which is quite neutral in nature)
Yellow eyes is a devil (he's all business)
we also know that they're all (well, with the possible exception of the demon) "male", because they all have male names and fiends have no reason for ironic names, except demons. Although Yellow doesn't really have a physical sex unless he's a duke, but he can have a gender identity, and a demon's sex is more or less coincidental...

[Kaytara]

Great update. :) I simply love the way Rich foreshadows things. This also explains the ambiguity of Sabine's creature type. And the idea of the forces of Evil trying to work together is creepy.
I suppose the IFCC group may see the Snarl as an opportunity - a common enemy for the entire force of evil to unite itself against.
Also... Really random here, but the "Greetings!" (and) "Salutations!" line totally reminded me of what one Necromancer-turned-Lich hero in Might and Magic 8 says. XD

Character-wise, this is very important. Whatever Vaarsuvius decides now, he cannot claim to have been influenced by the pressure of time. He now has the chance to prioritize carefully and think things out.
That may not change much, though. Unless he requests that they go and intervene themselves (unlikely, because he sees that as his own responsibility), he still needs that power to defeat the dragon.

That said, I don't think it's time for the four words yet. For one thing, there are three beings here, and if V accepts anything on the spot he will be addressing all three of them.
But mostly, I think Vaarsuvius has to earn his power somehow. His question was "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?" (emphasis mine)
Getting it on a golden platter doesn't seem to count as achieving it. Reaping the rewards from his own efforts rather than just luck or someone's assistance also seems to be very important for Vaarsuvius. ("I will conquer this obstacle through my own diligence or not at all!")

If, during the bargaining, Vaarsuvius manages to think of a different way to save his family, rendering the power boost unnecessary, he may turn down the offer of power precisely because he wants to earn it rather than just redeem a gift certificate.

I suppose those COULD be the four words, after all. "I decline your offer", not because he's too squeamish to strike a bargain with the forces of darkness, but because he's too proud to rely on their help, which can easily count as the wrong reason for doing so. Then, through some twist or perhaps as the result of Vaarsuvius thus passing some hidden personality test, he would end up getting that power anyway.

[Zael Zuran]

PURE SPECULATION

They are probably motivated by the snarl. They are now attempting to enlist V as their 2nd major player, who happens to be, well, snarled up in this gate fiasco. (Nale by proxy via Sabine being the other.)

I suspect each of these three has their own agenda regarding V, Nale, and the snarl; being fiends and all.

Lee, is the most likely to want to keep the snarl bound, as the one most prone to honor the arrangements that led to its imprisonment. But Lee is also the one most prone to ferret out loopholes to pervert the original intent if it can be turned to his personal advantage. Hardly benevolent.

Nero, the most likely to see it as a great opportunity to be leveraged, in through either the use of its freedom as an active weapon or extortion contingent on its continued bondage. Most likely to release the snarl out of spite if his doom seems inevitable.

Cedrik, the most likely to view it as a dangerous and wholly irresistable temptation that keeps him up at night scheming. The one most likely to incorrectly see a kindred spirit in the snarl, that would somehow care about how clever a fiend was, despite having a documented habit of eating gods.

If we consider the Nale / Sabine grouping as being more in Lee's camp, and V as being a more "ends justifying the means" adherent to Nero's philosophy...

It is possible there is (or will be) another agent courted by Cedrik, with a similar attitude towards mayhem. A certain lich perhaps?

[hamishspence]

I'm wondering if Nero will be connected in some way to the Dark One.

The Dark One appears to possibly offer the Law domain, going by Redcloak being able to cast Hold Monster (in SoD) But otherwise, we haven't seen much Law in the Dark One.

I wonder if, like a reverse Maglubiyet (D&D goblin deity: NE, offers Chaos domain) he will be NE offering Law domain.

And also, having Nero allied with Redcloak and The Dark One would be an interesting possibility.

[Crossfiyah]

I still don't understand their names.

[Tingel]

in mythology- daemons were guardian spirits. Phillip Pullman went with this version. I think they were portrayed as evil much later, then the name changed- to demons- and they became associated with fallen angels.
That is incorrect. Demon is just the English word for daemon, so outside of D&D they're the same thing. Thus the name change you mention never occured.

A demon in ancient Greece was a being between the realm of the gods and the realm of mortals, an unkown divinity of intermediate power, and they could be either good (eudemons) or evil (cacodemons). Later the terminology changed and eudemons came to be called angels and cacodemons became simply demons, or "fallen angels".

Philip Pullman's version of dæmons does not reflect their depiction in ancient mythology at all, with the possible exception of going back to the "morally neutral" base meaning of the term. He just borrowed the term, hoping to provoke the Christians he tried to attack with his books, since they associate the term demon with Evil.

[Morgan Wick]

I didn't catch the "IFCC = Sabine's bosses" bit. That could lead to some interesting business.

So I guess it'll be #633 when we get the Four Words...


That is incorrect. Demon is just the English word for daemon, so outside of D&D they're the same thing. Thus the name change you mention never occured.

Wikipedia uses "daemon" to distinguish Greek demons from Christian demons, using "daemon" for the former.

[Moebius]

So V was preapproved by Sabine's superiors... Fascinating!

Aaand let's not forget, it was Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) who originally sicced the OotS on the black dragon... which led to V's current predicament.
Based on Sabine's dialogue in that strip, I don't think the IFCC planned this from back then, though. However, that tieback could become significant later....

[silvadel]

Interesting to see yet another side as shown by the roaches who said there were about 9 sides or more.

Lots more are interested in the snarl than the oots and xykon.

[chionophile]

I still don't understand their names.

The first two letters in each name indicate their alignment. Nero = N.E.ro, where N.E. stands for Neutral Evil. Same for the other two - Cedrik = Chaotic Evil, Lee = Lawful Evil.

Also, the purple one is my favorite.

[Trazoi]

I'd love to be able to speak in footnotes. :smallbiggrin:

[DrivinAllNight]

I still don't understand their names.

Lee is Lawful Evil - LEe
Nero is Neutral Evil - NEro
and Cedrik is Chaotic Evil - CEdrik

Thats my impression anyways

-- Ninja'd because of my slow dial-up connection --

[Wadoka]

Dear Powers!

Don't you see?

Spending all this time debating the alignments... how can you?

For Pete's sake... Vaarsuvius is about to accept to a pre-approved CREDIT CARD OFFER!!!

Oh, the humanity! The absolute horror! The bone-chillingly slimy evil...!

Pray, Brethren! Pray for salvation! Dave Ramsey, preserve us!

[zzyss]

Maybe I'm reaching, but does anybody else think that - considering the music references - the IFCC is a play on the RIAA / MPAA organisations?

[Optimystik]

I'm wondering if Nero will be connected in some way to the Dark One.

The Dark One appears to possibly offer the Law domain, going by Redcloak being able to cast Hold Monster (in SoD) But otherwise, we haven't seen much Law in the Dark One.

I wonder if, like a reverse Maglubiyet (D&D goblin deity: NE, offers Chaos domain) he will be NE offering Law domain.

And also, having Nero allied with Redcloak and The Dark One would be an interesting possibility.

Interesting you mention that. That would make Redcloak's domains Law and Destruction (since he casts Disintegrate in SoD as well, and Shatter, though the last is also a general cleric spell.)

But why debate it all here when I can make a shiny new thread for it? :)

[Bilbo27]

The end is near

[Horatio@Bridge]

Dear Powers!

Don't you see?

Spending all this time debating the alignments... how can you?

For Pete's sake... Vaarsuvius is about to accept to a pre-approved CREDIT CARD OFFER!!!

Oh, the humanity! The absolute horror! The bone-chillingly slimy evil...!

Pray, Brethren! Pray for salvation! Dave Ramsey, preserve us!

You, sir, win the internet.

[David Argall]

Aaand let's not forget, it was Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) who originally sicced the OotS on the black dragon... which led to V's current predicament.
Based on Sabine's dialogue in that strip, I don't think the IFCC planned this from back then, though. However, that tieback could become significant later....
Sabine was set on the OOTS by Nale, and neither Nale nor Sabine knew a thing about the dragon, tho they did suspect something nasty would be out there. Nor did they know about the Snarl at that time.

Some things are just co-incidences.

[ericgrau]

And indeed Sabine's Bosses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) stake their claim in Vaarsuvius.

I suspect they've incercepted this message and are acting of their own accord...

Nice catch. Yeup, we have a perfect match. And note the context with that comic. I wonder the deal will play out, considering what they're after and what V is after. Heck, I wonder how the deal will play out anyway. What exactly will V give in return, what form will the power come in? Oh the anticipation.

[Zevox]

Well, that answers a couple of lingering questions about the Fiends in the OotS. There is indeed a Blood War, and so the same major distinction between demons and devils as in basic D&D. But Sabine reports to neither side, but rather to a trio of fiends who are trying to unite their races. Interesting.

Well, looks like we may indeed be seeing the much-anticipated Four WordsTM and V's acquisition of complete and total ultimate arcane power within the next few strips. I look forward to seeing exactly how this plays out.

Zevox

[Vargtass]

I'd love to be able to speak in footnotes. :smallbiggrin:*

*The talking in footnotes, while being easy, is not recommended for chidren under the age of 13, or persons with a sensitive mind.

[ss49]

yugoloths were 3.5, 3.0, and possibly 2nd ed as well- Daemon is their name in even earlier editions- but the term isn't used in 3.0 and 3.5

That's sort of what I was going for, OotS has a strong flavor of AD&D (1st Ed) with the common sense adjustments (like no more THAC0) and funny opportunities of the more complex 3.5.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Lee is Lawful Evil - LEe
Nero is Neutral Evil - NEro
and Cedrik is Chaotic Evil - CEdrik


Thank You! I was trying to find some hidden meaning when you said all their names together "'Lean era,' said Rick," "Lean Eros Head-Wreck," or something like that.

I'm also hoping that since these are Sabine's superiors, that we bring her and the rest of the Linear Guild into this...maybe even a segue into something about Hilgya or Nale's Father.

[Kaytara]

Sabine was set on the OOTS by Nale, and neither Nale nor Sabine knew a thing about the dragon, tho they did suspect something nasty would be out there. Nor did they know about the Snarl at that time.

Some things are just co-incidences.

Even so, isn't there a 'no coercion' clause in the whole selling your soul deal? If I'm not mistaken, it's one of the few conditions that can allow such a deal to be made invalid.

While Sabine and Nale did not intend to make the Order kill a dragon and earn its mother's wrath, their actions still ended up causing it, and through that causing the circumstances that will/might force V to accept this deal. A lawyer may consider that coercion or otherwise illegal interference. A stretch, of course, but a potential loophole nonetheless.

[Kgw]

Can anyone provide a transcript of what the fiends said (especially the one with the purple script on the black background--incredibly hard to read, dark script on a dark background...)?

Me too. Specially the last ballon of the last panel... I am becoming old :p

[kusje]

Me too. Specially the last ballon of the last panel... I am becoming old :p

Already done by someone in post #75!

[RolyPoly]

Based on the little information we can glean about the trio of fiends from this strip, my guess is that Cedric is the one with the purple eyes and font, Nero is orange and Lee is yellow.

Cedric opens with a joke, and while he shouts "good gods, y'all!" he seems to be flailing his arms around. [...]

Hmm, so Cedric is the Entertainer?

[osyluth]

Petty squabbles between fiends have taken far too much fiendish effort away from the greater Evil. Hooray for the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission! If they handle Faustian devil contracts for high-profile costumers like Vaarsuvius, then they must be bigger than Qarr's lack of knowledge on them makes them seem.

[Taekwondodo]

Does anyone remember the number of the strip where V asked how to achieve ultimate power, and the Oracle told him to "say the right (some number) of words to the right being at the right time?"

"The right four words at the right time to the right being for all the wrong reasons"

It depends on it being for all the wrong reasons aswell though and surely saving your family is for the right reason? Unless the dragon just wanted V to suffer the agonny of thinking hir family were all dead and the dragon never planned on actually carrying out the plan. This would mean that V had sold hir soul for nothing although se would still think se had done it for the right reasons. I the end I would say probably not.

[Firest Kathon]

Am I the only one who first thought of this (non-OOtS-) strip (http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990323)* when reading the word "daemon"? And of course this one (http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20020810), which also shows some possible way out for V... :smallwink:

*Reading through the other posts, these sound unfortunately much more logical**

** Footnotes are fun***! :smallbiggrin:

*** Based on typical fun for previous readers matching my demographic profile. Additional terms and restrictions may apply

[DrGonzo]

Hmm, so Cedric is the Entertainer?

I really did LOL about that.. :smallbiggrin:

Giant, for you sir, I take of my hat.

[banjo1985]

Go on V...give in to the surprisingly multi-coloured darkside...:smallbiggrin:

[unstattedCommoner]

*The talking in footnotes, while being easy, is not recommended for chidren under the age of 13, or persons with a sensitive mind.**

**Known side-effects include loss of vision, loss of hearing, stomach cramps, projectile vomiting, death. For external use only. Keep away from mortals.

[Pr0tag0nist]

hey,
i didnt see it posted in the forums yet...
im neither native english speaking nor am i into D&D and im just guessing i must miss out a joke in this strip...
the purple dude of the ifcc says in his first picture: "I just transferred my consciousness from hte Lower Planes and boy, are my arms tired!"

there must be sense somewhere in this sentence.. but for me its just nonesense right now :elan:

[snafu]

hey,
i didnt see it posted in the forums yet...
im neither native english speaking nor am i into D&D and im just guessing i must miss out a joke in this strip...
the purple dude of the ifcc says in his first picture: "I just transferred my consciousness from hte Lower Planes and boy, are my arms tired!"

there must be sense somewhere in this sentence.. but for me its just nonesense right now :elan:

It's an extremely corny old joke. A bad stand-up comedian - or indeed a businessman who thinks it a good idea to begin some speech or presentation with a joke - might start by saying something like 'So, I just flew in from Boston - and boy, are my arms tired!' The implication being that he's been flapping them all the way.

To me, the fact that someone would actually make that awful joke is more than enough evidence that they are utterly and irredeemably evil.

[Grunjon]

I still don't understand their names.

Lee is Lawful Evil - LEe
Nero is Neutral Evil - NEro
and Cedrik is Chaotic Evil - CEdrik



Hmm, so Cedric is the Entertainer?

Not sure if the Giant had anything else in mind when he picked these names, but I thought it might be interesting to point out that legendary actor Christopher Lee played both "Nero the Magician" in the 1960 film The Hands of Orlac and a character named "Cedric" (with a "c", instead of a "k") in the 1992 film Jackpot.

Neither of these are films that most people would know, however, so Giant probably wasn't shooting for these. It's probably just an interesting coincidence.

[Ghastly Epigram]

While these are certainly the same folk we saw back here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) anyone else notice they seem a little shorter now?

[ref]

I am ashamed that another one of the typical footnotes hasn't appeared yet. You know, the one that goes something like "Void in Delaware and Rhode Island".

Also, we need Lee, Nero, and Cedrik smileys.

[Darzil]

"The right four words at the right time to the right being for all the wrong reasons"

It depends on it being for all the wrong reasons aswell though and surely saving your family is for the right reason? Unless the dragon just wanted V to suffer the agonny of thinking hir family were all dead and the dragon never planned on actually carrying out the plan. This would mean that V had sold hir soul for nothing although se would still think se had done it for the right reasons. I the end I would say probably not.

If, however, V allies with the three to keep the Snarl imprisoned, but is doing it to save hir family, rather than the universe, that could be argued to be saying the right words at the right time for the wrong reason.

Darzil

[Dilvish]

or, a Duke of hell, a minor demon lord, and a yugoloth lord-


- Walk into a tavern. Supply your own punchline.

I feel better now.

dilvish

[CalenLoki]

We know for a fact that Sabine deals in souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) (and gets commission, apparently). Maybe she set the whole order up with pre-approved offers just in case?

[Dilvish]

Even so, isn't there a 'no coercion' clause in the whole selling your soul deal? If I'm not mistaken, it's one of the few conditions that can allow such a deal to be made invalid.

While Sabine and Nale did not intend to make the Order kill a dragon and earn its mother's wrath, their actions still ended up causing it, and through that causing the circumstances that will/might force V to accept this deal. A lawyer may consider that coercion or otherwise illegal interference. A stretch, of course, but a potential loophole nonetheless.

Good thing then that the Order has a lawyer in their ranks. It may just tie in. :)

I solomnly swear that I will not dally in the IV words mess.

dilvish

[sihnfahl]

I'm still hoping that V can both, save his/her family and keep his/her soul.
Yes, but can you imagine the dragon's glee when it finds out that V damned his/her eternal soul to save his/her children?

Elves may live for a long time, but they're still mortal. To have one's soul damned for eternity...

[Scarlet Knight]

- Walk into a tavern. Supply your own punchline.

I feel better now.
dilvish

A Devil Lord, a Duke of Hell & a Yugoloth Lord walk into a tavern.

The Devil Lord says: " Bartender, the usual please"
Bartender says: "One Devil's Tail? Right away , m'Lord".
The Duke of Hell say:" Barkeep, the usual & make it snappy."
The Bartender says, " Yessir, one Hell's Eye coming right up."
The Yugoloth steps up & say, "I'm here for the usual ."
The Bartender says, "Blue Nun? You just missed her..."

[Qov]

I solemnly swear that I will not dally in the IV words mess.
I came to this thread specifically to watch the four-worders going crazy with anticipation.

And I'm disappointed with the lack of crazy speculations on the topic.

[LordSintax]

I'm rather worried for V. I seem to recall something about Baelnorns. but those are GOOD liches, as I recall. and this doesnt exactly smack of "goodness" to me.

[Doug Lampert]

That said, I don't think it's time for the four words yet. For one thing, there are three beings here, and if V accepts anything on the spot he will be addressing all three of them.
But mostly, I think Vaarsuvius has to earn his power somehow. His question was "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?" (emphasis mine)

I disagree with your reasoning, but agree with the conclusion.

If V says the "four words" anytime soon, it won't give him immediate access to the power.

Ultimate power ENDS V's STORY. One way or another.

If V has ultimate arcane power and this means the best possible then Xykon isn't a serious problem for him, nor is reuniting the order, nor is rebuilding the destroyed gates (assuming ultimate power can't be used for some more permanent solution). If V lives for ten minutes with that power the whole story is over.

The main alternate meaning of ultimate is FINAL or last. V having final or last arcane power would also pretty well end his story?

Thus V won't get ultimate arcane power anytime soon. Any deal he makes with the fiends won't give him immediate access to such power, and all he's dealing for right now is immediate power. Hence no four words.

DougL

[SmartAlec]

If, however, V allies with the three to keep the Snarl imprisoned, but is doing it to save hir family, rather than the universe, that could be argued to be saying the right words at the right time for the wrong reason.

If trying to save your family from a dragon is wrong, then I don't wanna be right. :smallcool:

(Yeah, I'm in the "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." camp.)


Ultimate power ENDS V's STORY. One way or another.

You're assuming he'll get to keep it even for ten minutes. The Oracle's prophecy only said that he would achieve it - but not for how long. If he's offered ultimate power with which to save his family, but is unable to use it for anything else according to the terms of the deal...

[One Skunk Todd]

If these are the "4-word" beings I wonder if he will be offered a different option by each one and thus have only 33% chance of picking the right one.

[Lord_Butters_I]

If these are the "4-word" beings I wonder if he will be offered a different option by each one and thus have only 33% chance of picking the right one.

Problem: this is the IFCC. They work together, it's kind of their thing.

[*Templar*]

I'd just like to say that for some reason, the joke about the IFCC's slogan has amused me more than anything in the comic in recent memory. I keep repeating it to myself in my head. I like how you just have time to chuckle at "Blood war, huh, who is it good for?" before you read "Good gods, y'all!" and then it becomes hilarious. To me, at least.

[Elfey]

Goethe's Faust, the Doctor makes his deal with Satan for ultimate knowledge and power over nature, and in exchange Satan gets his soul when he finds a moment of pure happiness using his powers. Goethe is never truly happy and for the most part uses his powers either for good or for minor things rather than Earth-shaking power.

:vaarsuvius:'s quest for ultimate arcane power may very well go this same route.

I believe though :vaarsuvius: will take the deal and Damn themself, but will Free :vaarsuvius:'s children and save the world from the Snarl. (Perhaps in the process :vaarsuvius: will be compelled to give some measure of control to the dark ones as a replacement caster for :xykon: )

I've got a more interesting question though. How do the Fiends fit in with the Gods? Does Loki share control of some of them with the other pantheon dark gods? Or are they separate and didn't know about the snarl?

[Kaytara]

I disagree with your reasoning, but agree with the conclusion.

If V says the "four words" anytime soon, it won't give him immediate access to the power.

Ultimate power ENDS V's STORY. One way or another.
...
Thus V won't get ultimate arcane power anytime soon. Any deal he makes with the fiends won't give him immediate access to such power, and all he's dealing for right now is immediate power. Hence no four words.

DougL

Yep - if V's prophecy is fulfilled now, he's left with nowhere to develop. Given that power is his ultimate goal in life, it should come as the conclusion to his story.
I consider that to be simply an additional reason why now isn't the time yet. :) Plus, Rich has been waving this into our faces. He wouldn't have made it so obvious if he'd been planning to actually fulfil V's prophecy.

[DrakebloodIV]

Aww crap. V cant play fiddle worth ****.

[Rotipher]

Elves may live for a long time, but they're still mortal. To have one's soul damned for eternity...

Unless the Snarl annihilates V. Then there's no soul left to be damned, and Our Three Fiends get stiffed on the deal.

[Silverraptor]

You know, thinking back, Belkar has a point.

"They can research a 9th level spell that can stop time but they can't put a dimmer on the sun?"

I mean, the fiends time stop if awfully darn good!

[Kaytara]

Aww crap. V cant play fiddle worth ****.

Technically, maybe he can. XD I wouldn't be surprised if it's customary for wizards to learn to play some sort of instrument in order to enhance their fine motorics and general hand coordination. XD

[Kish]

Technically, maybe he can. XD I wouldn't be surprised if it's customary for wizards to learn to play some sort of instrument in order to enhance their fine motorics and general hand coordination. XD
Unlikely. Perform is a bard-only skill.

[David Argall]

Yep - if V's prophecy is fulfilled now, he's left with nowhere to develop. Given that power is his ultimate goal in life, it should come as the conclusion to his story.

More likely at this point is that the achievement will be temporary, leaving her with a desire to regain it.

Rich has been waving this into our faces. He wouldn't have made it so obvious if he'd been planning to actually fulfil V's prophecy.
Haley met the gift horse in 381, and got her voice back in 393. People saw it coming all the way. [The twists, no, but the destination was in sight from the start.] So the fact that it looks highly obvious the 4 words are coming soon likely means the 4 words are coming soon, by 640 or so.

[Doug Lampert]

Haley met the gift horse in 381, and got her voice back in 393. People saw it coming all the way. [The twists, no, but the destination was in sight from the start.] So the fact that it looks highly obvious the 4 words are coming soon likely means the 4 words are coming soon, by 640 or so.
Huh, because one thing was foreshadowed and obvious coming with no fakeout all of them will be? Rich isn't allowed to vary things?

In any case Ultimate Arcane Power is V's goal, it's his reason for doing things. It's his END condition. Asking every strip if this is what fills it is like asking every strip if Elan's happy ending is here yet or if this causes it or asking every strip if Durkon's posthumus return home or if Belkar's death prophesy is about to be fulfilled.

Four members of the order have end condition prophesies. I don't consider it at all obvious that with 40% of the story to go we're about to hit V's end condition.

Ultimate power WILL involve the snarl. Fiends don't have ultimate power to offer, all they have is power beyond "the typical wildest imaginings of others in V's demographic". Doesn't sound very ultimate to me.

[Scarlet Knight]

Unlikely. Perform is a bard-only skill.

Aw, c'mon! You never had a non-bard take some ranks in perform? I had a ranger with a couple of ranks in "Perform (jug)"...he'd keep rhythm for the party bard (She was awful purty...) :smallsmile:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Now look... While V may GET Ultimate Arcane Power by saying the right four words... yadda, yadda, yadda... But nothing says s/he'll be allowed to KEEP hir Ultimate Arcane Power for more time than it takes to rescue hir children from the Ancient Black Dragon!

Think about it for a second. UAP seems like Epic Magic, something V isn't eligable for for another seven levels. Can a 14th (most likely, see the Class and Level Geekery thread) level wizard cast Epic spells without burning themselves out rather quickly? "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long." V taking down an ABD by hirself will be like a magnesuim flare!

So once the IFCC has completed its end of the bargain, V could return to the OotS with no memory of what happened on the island, or for a 24-72 hour period afterward.

[Milanius]

:smalleek:

They are stopping the Blood War? Wouldn't that screw over like, the rest of the universe?Yes.

The thing that's truly frightening [for storyline] is that they've taken such interest in V. They might see some huge potential in him/her which might help them in realization of their goal [united front of Evil].

[Prak]

Good thing then that the Order has a lawyer in their ranks. It may just tie in. :)

I solomnly swear that I will not dally in the IV words mess.

dilvish

you mean Celia might actually pull her weight? holy crap!

[Lawst]

Even if V gains the UAP, that doesn't mean V's story will end, but rather could lead into a whole different story arc for V's character that s/he cannot overcome with power alone.

General? I know. Unlikely? Most probably. Matter? Not really.

[nybbler]

I guess they lied about the "no fine print" bit, judging from the footnote. I'm suspecting that V's wild imaginings about magical power are WAY more than the typical wild imaginings of your average soul-selling century-old (or however old V is) elf.

[snafu]

I guess they lied about the "no fine print" bit, judging from the footnote. I'm suspecting that V's wild imaginings about magical power are WAY more than the typical wild imaginings of your average soul-selling century-old (or however old V is) elf.

That's the kind of fine print I _like_, though. Ordinarily, phrases like 'beyond your wildest dreams' are classed alongside 'Probably the best lager in the world' or 'Made in Scotland from girders' - they don't actually mean anything, they're just marketing fluff.

But here... they've actually surveyed the wildest dreams of a statistically significant sample of high-level megalomaniac wizards contemplating a diabolical deal, and are making their pitch to exceed that? Wow. Whatever's coming up, they're going to make one hell of an offer.

[Zanaril]

I guess they lied about the "no fine print" bit, judging from the footnote.

Actually, to them it's not print, it's spoken. (Even in the context of a webcomic, it's not print, as there's no printing involved.)

[Forealms]

Excellent comic!

I'm sure I had more insightful things to say than this, but I forgot them in the two days it took me to post.

[Pip]

V: "I need to meditate on this. Keep the time stop up."

V trances (finally)

V: "I've made my decision"

V teleports to home and blasts the dragon with four or five disintegrates.

{I hope I hope I hope}

[Lira]

V: "I need to meditate on this. Keep the time stop up."

V trances (finally)

V: "I've made my decision"

V teleports to home and blasts the dragon with four or five disintegrates.

{I hope I hope I hope}
V can't teleport, (s)he barred conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html).

[enarch3t]

V can't teleport.

Details, details, details.

I'm pro-V teleporting on her own.

[Xerrik]

Isn't it interesting how they're able to talk in asterisks and footnotes?

[Xerrik]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but am I the only one who saw Terry Pratchett's Auditors in these three guys? Was probably mentioned when they first appeared to Sabine, though. :smalltongue:

Now that you mention it, they do seem kinda like how i pictured them, although i didn't imagine any appendages or eyes. I just thought of them as semi-fileed brown robes that just kind of floated there.

[Logalmier]

...well on the plus side the demon/devil thingies seem very sincere. Well, as sincere as you can get when your about to buy sombodys soul from them.:smalleek:

[DrakebloodIV]

That said, I don't think it's time for the four words yet. For one thing, there are three beings here, and if V accepts anything on the spot he will be addressing all three of them.
But mostly, I think Vaarsuvius has to earn his power somehow. His question was "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?" (emphasis mine)
Getting it on a golden platter doesn't seem to count as achieving it. Reaping the rewards from his own efforts rather than just luck or someone's assistance also seems to be very important for Vaarsuvius. ("I will conquer this obstacle through my own diligence or not at all!")

If, during the bargaining, Vaarsuvius manages to think of a different way to save his family, rendering the power boost unnecessary, he may turn down the offer of power precisely because he wants to earn it rather than just redeem a gift certificate.

I suppose those COULD be the four words, after all. "I decline your offer", not because he's too squeamish to strike a bargain with the forces of darkness, but because he's too proud to rely on their help, which can easily count as the wrong reason for doing so. Then, through some twist or perhaps as the result of Vaarsuvius thus passing some hidden personality test, he would end up getting that power anyway.


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p223/dumbanimalpics/randompics/freeinternet.jpg

I totally agree. If V declined the offer and still won, I would die of sheer amazement. You just won the Internet

[SmartAlec]

Yep - if V's prophecy is fulfilled now, he's left with nowhere to develop. Given that power is his ultimate goal in life, it should come as the conclusion to his story.

Belkar's prophecy was fulfilled and it was his goal in life (killing certain people). He was a monomaniac just like V, but the fulfilment of his prophecy opened up a new way for him to develop that none of us really foresaw. I don't see why this can't happen with V.

[Ted The Bug]

Grassroots never work. You need the orginizational power of the major heavy hitters.

Tell that to the President. :D
Also, I'm loving this arc, even though it spells trouble ahead.

[Hann]

Looks like it's time for a metaphorical deal with the devil, only I'm stopping this Futurama reference right here.

And by stopping this Futurama reference, I mean get your coat.

[Starwaster]

Dear Powers!

Don't you see?

Spending all this time debating the alignments... how can you?

For Pete's sake... Vaarsuvius is about to accept to a pre-approved CREDIT CARD OFFER!!!

Oh, the humanity! The absolute horror! The bone-chillingly slimy evil...!

Pray, Brethren! Pray for salvation! Dave Ramsey, preserve us!

If we're talkin about salvation from hell, you'd be better off praying to Gordon Ramsay

[Lord Seth]

So when are we getting back to the plot I actually care about?

EDIT: In retrospect, that was a bit overly snarky. Let me rephrase it: Could we hurry this up so we could get back to getting Roy resurrected so the story can finally start moving again?

[delguidance]

Oh man, I laughed so hard. Great comic!

[Red XIV]

:smalleek:

They are stopping the Blood War? Wouldn't that screw over like, the rest of the universe?
That's probably the idea. Y'know, Evil. :smallbiggrin:


Petty squabbles between fiends have taken far too much fiendish effort away from the greater Evil. Hooray for the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission! If they handle Faustian devil contracts for high-profile costumers like Vaarsuvius, then they must be bigger than Qarr's lack of knowledge on them makes them seem.
I don't think Qarr's lack of knowledge means much. There is a great deal that Qarr doesn't know.

[Kish]

So when are we getting back to the plot I actually care about?

EDIT: In retrospect, that was a bit overly snarky. Let me rephrase it: Could we hurry this up so we could get back to getting Roy resurrected so the story can finally start moving again?
No.

Using more words :smalltongue:: No, Rich is not going to rush through one part of his story to get to another part you're more interested in. Roy will get resurrected when the story gets there.

[Lord Seth]

No.

Using more words :smalltongue:: No, Rich is not going to rush through one part of his story to get to another part you're more interested in. Roy will get resurrected when the story gets there.To be honest, my complaint isn't so much that this specific part is dragging--its pacing is okay, I guess--it's that it's frozen the main plot (the bit with Haley trying to get Roy resurrected) in place, which is especially bad as it was already moving too slowly even when we were watching it.

Oh well, at least it looks like this is actually going somewhere, rather than spending so much time on a character who died without actually contributing much of anything to the strip. (I'm looking at you, Therkla) So I suppose I'm being unduly harsh on this bit with V when the main problem is in the other parts of the comic. But I suppose now isn't the time to really be complaining about the other parts.

[Pip]

V can't teleport, (s)he barred conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html).

Fine. Be that way.

...

V: "I need to meditate on this. Keep the time stop up."

V trances (finally)

V: "I've made my decision"

V charms Qarr and tells him to teleport V to V's home in 5 seconds.

V casts some spell that transfigures V into an under 50 pound inanimate object for 10 seconds.

Qarr teleports V to V's home.

V turns back into V.

V hits the dragon with four or five disintergates.

:smallbiggrin:

[Kaytara]

Belkar's prophecy was fulfilled and it was his goal in life (killing certain people). He was a monomaniac just like V, but the fulfilment of his prophecy opened up a new way for him to develop that none of us really foresaw. I don't see why this can't happen with V.

Belkar's goal in life was killing those people? This seems to be a stretch. His goal is killing things in general and enjoying himself. He doesn't actually care enough about them to actively seek their deaths as long as they're not in his way or are not providing an opportunity for short-term satisfaction.

Ultimate arcane power, on the other hand, is V's goal in LIFE. It's the entire purpose of V's existence.

[see]

I'm not positive, but I think the name was changing from daemon to yugoloth, even in 2nd ed.
Yes. It was changed for 2e, in fact. First publication of all the 1st Edition fiends for 2e was in MC8, the Outer Planes Appendix, and it was done with the new names -- daemons became yugoloths, devils became baatezu, demons became tanar'ri, and demodands became gehreleths. (Same product was the first introduction of the idea of the Blood War.)

Third Edition restored the categories of "demon" and "devil" as supersets of baatezu and tanar'ri, and the 3e Fiend Folio went with demodand, but daemons remained yugoloths. However, Necromancer Games was licensed to cover daemons in the Tome of Horrors, and did so. The Pathfinder RPG/setting is going to include them based on their OGC appearance in the Tome of Horrors.

Interestingly, there is a "guardian daemon" in AD&D 1e and the Tome of Horrors of neutral alignment, rather than the NE of its kin.

[kierthos]

I don't think four or five disintegrates would do much to the momma dragon, as she would almost certainly make all her saves. (Yes, yes, there's always the chance she'd roll a one, but cumulative over five rolls, there's a 77% chance she wouldn't roll a one.)

[SmartAlec]

Belkar's goal in life was killing those people?

It was, for at least a moment. Granted, Belkar's not disciplined enough to devote much energy to eliminating a specific person for long; but then, Vaarsuvius's recent devotion to acquiring power by studying and experimenting 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is a recent change, too. And he can change again, is what I'm trying to say.

Belkar was a casual killer until he finally reached a point when he had to change his approach (the Mark of Justice). Haley was devoted to the cause of acquiring wealth and being a thief, until she reached a point when she had to make a major change (her father being kidnapped). I don't see why V can't acquire ultimate power, be confronted with a similar revelation from wielding that power, and make a change.

[Aris Katsaris]

To be honest, my complaint isn't so much that this specific part is dragging--its pacing is okay, I guess--it's that it's frozen the main plot (the bit with Haley trying to get Roy resurrected)

I think it's time for Roy's body to be disintegrated and Gusted-of-Wind, so that his resurrection becomes impossible, so that people FINALLY stop ignoring everything else that's happening merely in anticipation of a plot point that might or might not occur.

The continuity possibility of Roy's resurrection is stunting some people's brains, and preventing them from enjoying what's ACTUALLY taking place in the comic in mere anticipation of a future might-be.

A hundred interesting things have happened since Roy's death, but to some people it's as if the comic froze in time when Roy died.

[ref]

No.

Using more words :smalltongue:: No, Rich is not going to rush through one part of his story to get to another part you're more interested in. Roy will get resurrected when the story gets there.

QFT. filler

[factotum]

Now that you mention it, they do seem kinda like how i pictured them, although i didn't imagine any appendages or eyes. I just thought of them as semi-fileed brown robes that just kind of floated there.

They're too individual to be the Auditors...different coloured eyes for each one? They'd be instantly annihilated for having that level of individuality!

[Kaytara]

I think it's time for Roy's body to be disintegrated and Gusted-of-Wind, so that his resurrection becomes impossible, so that people FINALLY stop ignoring everything else that's happening merely in anticipation of a plot point that might or might not occur.

The continuity possibility of Roy's resurrection is stunting some people's brains, and preventing them from enjoying what's ACTUALLY taking place in the comic in mere anticipation of a future might-be.

A hundred interesting things have happened since Roy's death, but to some people it's as if the comic froze in time when Roy died.

THIS. What "main plot" are people talking about, anyway? The main plot is the adventures of the Order of the Stick - they way they act, interact, work to overcome obstacles and change over time. We've been getting bucketfuls of that. I don't see anything to be unhappy about.

[Werekat]

Ultimate power ENDS V's STORY. One way or another.


Disagree. As one of the best storytellers with whom I have ever had the pleasure of gaming proved to me on my own skin, gaining ultimate power is not where the story ends. It's where it begins.

Because nobody ever said this power would last. Just because it's arcane, does not mean it'll remain forever. And nobody ever prepares you for what to do in the aftermath of your own actions while empowered.

I am not at all sure the author will take it in this precise direction, but I do think this is a distinct possibility.

Edit: Ninja'd by Surfing HalfOrc!

[Morty]

I think it's time for Roy's body to be disintegrated and Gusted-of-Wind, so that his resurrection becomes impossible, so that people FINALLY stop ignoring everything else that's happening merely in anticipation of a plot point that might or might not occur.

The continuity possibility of Roy's resurrection is stunting some people's brains, and preventing them from enjoying what's ACTUALLY taking place in the comic in mere anticipation of a future might-be.

A hundred interesting things have happened since Roy's death, but to some people it's as if the comic froze in time when Roy died.



THIS. What "main plot" are people talking about, anyway? The main plot is the adventures of the Order of the Stick - they way they act, interact, work to overcome obstacles and change over time. We've been getting bucketfuls of that. I don't see anything to be unhappy about.

Word. What makes all those people say that we're somehow away from the main plot?

[Code Black]

Belkar's prophecy was fulfilled and it was his goal in life (killing certain people). He was a monomaniac just like V, but the fulfilment of his prophecy opened up a new way for him to develop that none of us really foresaw. I don't see why this can't happen with V.

Still, I don't think trying to save one's family counts as "all the wrong reasons."

[Lord_Butters_I]

I maintain that the Order is never, ever going to be brought back together and Elan's happy ending is being reunited with Haley in the afterlife.

[Kaytara]

Still, I don't think trying to save one's family counts as "all the wrong reasons."

Only in a relative sense. Saving people who are important to you is less of a right reason than saving the entire world. There's also the idea that "right" may not mean morally right, but instead rational and correct, and that V could say what would technically be the right four words, but with the wrong, incorrect reasoning for saying them.

There's also the idea that the reasons are simply something the Oracle, or Tiamat, would consider to be wrong reasons for UAP. Seeing as how Tiamat is an evil deity, a sentimental notion could easily be considered a wrong reason.

[SmartAlec]

Still, I don't think trying to save one's family counts as "all the wrong reasons."

Never said it was. I'm of the camp that thinks the four words that set V on this path were "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.", and that his wrong reason was murdering Lord Kubota in the name of expedience.

[recluso]

Epileptic tree


Could it be that V talks a bit about conditions and mentions ensuring his adopted children don't end up soulbound is very important.

Suppose V gets a couple of not completely clear choises, one guaranteed to provide the above. Suppose V chooses that.

Suppose V just gets the ability to cast a variant of Homebrewed Ultimate Resurrection, maybe now able to undo soul bind as well, maybe on two targets, but still require the casters unresurrectable life.
Wouldn't qualify as ultimate power?

Suppose V feels cheated (choice for wrong reason), expected something better, is very conflicted and doesn't dare cast it yet.

Ultimate Resurrection (normally cleric 9, conjuration, healing...)
This spell can revive a character that has died of old age or is soul trapped, such as the demilich's Soul Trap ability, at the cost of the caster's life. The revived character is brought to life, but only lives for one year, after which the character returns to their previous state. After that year, the person dies for good. Neither character can be revived by any means. This spell cannot be cast more than once on a single person.

[David Argall]

The continuity possibility of Roy's resurrection is stunting some people's brains, and preventing them from enjoying what's ACTUALLY taking place in the comic in mere anticipation of a future might-be.

A hundred interesting things have happened since Roy's death, but to some people it's as if the comic froze in time when Roy died.

Which sounds like a good reason to get Roy back.



What "main plot" are people talking about, anyway? The main plot is the adventures of the Order of the Stick - they way they act, interact, work to overcome obstacles and change over time.
This is a side quest, a quite large and involved one, but still just a side quest. It is much like going after the starmetal. The party does a lot of things and essentially goes nowhere.



We've been getting bucketfuls of that. I don't see anything to be unhappy about.
There is a fair amount of "Are we there yet?" involved here. The very knowledge we are going to shift scenes "soon" makes us anxious to make that shift. It's irritating to have to wait even if what we get is pretty good.
But our writer does have a tendency to stretch things out too much. He did so with Haley's speech problem, and he is doing so now with Roy's recovery.
And the idea was dubious from the start. Roy is the center of the story, and his absence is a lack. At a lesser level, we have [or rather we don't have] the interactions among the PCs. V hasn't hit Belkar with Explosive Runes in over 200 pages. The united party simply offers more.

We can hope it is going to end fairly soon, tho I am getting worried the schedule is getting tight.

[Andre Fairchilde]

The pacing has been off since Rich is writing for the books now more than the thrice weekly weekly updates as often as possible comics.

In the books we have the luxury of being able to skip right to the extra material, or right to our favorite plots while here we can't.

[Kaytara]

This is a side quest, a quite large and involved one, but still just a side quest. It is much like going after the starmetal. The party does a lot of things and essentially goes nowhere.
My understanding of 'side quest' is that it is something entirely unrelated to the main plot. Stopping to help out the dirt farmers was a side quest, because it had nothing to do with the Order's goals in general. By contrast, overcoming an obstacle (death of the party leader, separation of the party) that is the direct result of a major event in the main plot (defeat at Azure City) seems like main plot material to me.

By that definition, the dragon's appearance is a side quest, as it has nothing to do with Azure City, Xykon, or the Gates. But people have been complaining about side quests long before the dragon showed up. But if we take Haley's Resistance group and Hinjo's conflict with Kubota, even that can be considered part of the main plot, as it shows the direct repercussions of the Azurites' defeat and the consequences for the noble class and for the stranded survivors. Those stories are by no means unrelated to the main plot and I am overjoyed that Rich is exploring those facets that would otherwise have been very easy to ignore.


He did so with Haley's speech problem, and he is doing so now with Roy's recovery.
I can't speak for everyone, but when I discovered the comic Celia and Haley were just leaving Azure City, so I read smoothly through the speech impediment arc. I thought it had just the right length. Had it been shorter, it would have come off as minor and insignificant. The way it was, though, it did a good job of conveying just how big Haley's psychological issues were and how badly she needed to get over them - to my mind, at least.


And the idea was dubious from the start. Roy is the center of the story, and his absence is a lack. At a lesser level, we have [or rather we don't have] the interactions among the PCs. V hasn't hit Belkar with Explosive Runes in over 200 pages. The united party simply offers more.
I see it differently. Roy provides the framework of the story and a great deal of arcs (including the main plot, indirectly, as it was his dad's meddling that got them into this) were either centred on him or caused by him, but that doesn't mean that the campaign literally revolves around him or that he is the only character that matters. While you may feel that his absence has been a lack, I see it differently - story-wise, it is his very absence that has allowed the other characters and other aspects of the story to evolve in interesting new directions. If he'd been around, it all would've been about him again.

Roy is a great character, but IMO not interesting enough to actually pull off being the MAIN character of this story. His snarky attitude is hilarious, but if everything were centred on him, it would get old very quickly. I, for one, am glad that he is getting a break from the action.

[Silverraptor]

I think the main reason that Rich killed Roy was the fact that he wanted this story arc to be nothing but side quests. If Roy was alive, he'd focus more on the gates then the other members backrounds. Otherwise we would have ended the series with nothing but Roy's story. It's called the Order of the Stick, not the Order of the Roy.

[Xerrik]

Problem is the outsider in question muffs the setup line since there's no way "transfered my conciousness from the lower planes" should make your arms tired unless the somatic components are really over the top (and spell-like abilities have no somatic components in any case).

Presumably the outsider muffing the line IS the joke, I found it amusing, but then I'm familiar with the original.

Well, if the somatic components WERE over the top, it could be compared to a human taking the plane instead of a bird flying.

[Dr.Desastro]

I am just not quite sure, whether the OOTS will rejoin again. Also, I really would like to see Hilgya (?) back (that dwarven Cleric of Loki). Would add a nice touch to the story, should she ever try to go for another date with Durkon.

[Saint Nil]

Thank you Giant for making the purple text easier to read.:smallbiggrin:

[dps]

Is there a pun with the demon names?

It feels like there should be somehow.

I just figured this out--their initial are L, N, and C. Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic, get it?

[Hann]

This was answered earlier in the thread, but here, for convenience's sake:

LEe- Lawful Evil
NEro- Neutral Evil
CEdrik- Chaotic Evil

[SmartAlec]

If (Roy)'d been around, it all would've been about him again.

I might venture an opinion that this arc is about him anyway; it's about what happens when he's not there to act as a leader.

[Lord Seth]

As I've inadvertently started a discussion on the topic of the story moving slowly, I suppose I should at least give my thoughts.


I think it's time for Roy's body to be disintegrated and Gusted-of-Wind, so that his resurrection becomes impossible, so that people FINALLY stop ignoring everything else that's happening merely in anticipation of a plot point that might or might not occur.It's not a matter of Roy getting resurrected. It's a matter of the plot moving forward, which it hasn't.


The continuity possibility of Roy's resurrection is stunting some people's brains, and preventing them from enjoying what's ACTUALLY taking place in the comic in mere anticipation of a future might-be.Roy will get resurrected, that's confirmed in the volume 3 commentary. My problem is that it's taking forever. I wouldn't mind the length if it was because of interesting plot lines, but they really haven't been.


A hundred interesting things have happened since Roy's death, but to some people it's as if the comic froze in time when Roy died.Very few of the things that happened actually mattered. Let's see...
1) We spent time on Roy's afterlife, which served no purpose to the plot.
2) We spent a lot of time on the orcs, which were a Wacky Wayside Tribe. Their main purpose was to spend more time on Therkla, leading us to...
3) We spent a lot of time on Therkla, who had no purpose in the story other than to die, and not really contribute much to the plot. I was thinking she could be interesting, but then the whole thing is thrown out as she dies.
4) We saw what Xykon and Redcloak were up to, which served no purpose other than to say "Hey, look! The villains' story is standing still also!"
5) The potentially interesting story of Haley working on getting Roy resurrected is ruined by one person: Celia. I had some hopes for her being a decent character, but she's become more and more aggravating ever since they left Azure City; Miko never was as annoying as Celia. Miko, I loved to hate. Celia, I just hate. She's idiotic, refuses to accept any responsibility for her actions, is completely arrogant, and other than getting Haley to leave Azure City, she has done nothing but derail the plot. If I ever get around to finishing my review of Order of the Stick I'm working on, believe me that I'll have lots to say about why I hate her character.
6) Making matters even worse, all this is happening after the extremely high quality Battle of Azure City arc, making it even more of a disappointment. This reminds me of season three of Avatar. Season two was awesome and was the whole reason I got into the series. Season three, with its annoying number of filler episodes and all of the problems with the finale, was even more of a disappointment than it would have normally been because of its contrast with the higher quality of season two.
7) To top it all off, the often slow update schedule has exacerbated matters.

Look, I would've been interested in this latest storyline of V's if it had happened 50 or so strips ago, but after so much filler and delaying of resolution, I just find it hard to care much about it.

People bring up Haley's speech impediment, but that at least wasn't a major interference with the main plot and Rich even admitted he would've started with it later on if he could go back and do it again so it didn't last as long. Unfortunately, it seems he hasn't learned from that. I've pretty much concluded that this is all being intentionally stretched out just so it can all fit in the next book which will end with Roy's resurrection.

[Warren Dew]

But our writer does have a tendency to stretch things out too much.

I think that he has gotten better. Immediately after the fall of Azure City, there were some sequences that stretched for a large number of strips without a lot of action. Recently, arcs have been covered in a smaller number of strips, with more action and little dead time, or at least few dead strips, as it were. The story per strip ratio is pretty good at the moment, if one isn't too focused on Roy.

I'd like to get back to a live Roy eventually, but as long as we've got interesting side arcs and don't leave any one group of characters dormant for too long, I'm willing to be patient.


My understanding of 'side quest' is that it is something entirely unrelated to the main plot.

That's not the way I've generally heard it used in gaming circles. To me, a "side quest" is an arc that doesn't advance the main quest directly, but may advance it indirectly.

That said, I do agree that the Azure City resistance wasn't exactly a side quest - but mostly because it wasn't a quest at all. It did illustrate some things about the main story, but it didn't advance the main quest; indeed, it was abandoning the resistance that advanced the main quest.


Roy is a great character, but IMO not interesting enough to actually pull off being the MAIN character of this story.

I believe the author is on record as saying that Roy is the main character of the story.

[Kish]

As I've inadvertently started a discussion on the topic of the story moving slowly, I suppose I should at least give my thoughts.

It's not a matter of Roy getting resurrected. It's a matter of the plot moving forward, which it hasn't.

Roy will get resurrected, that's confirmed in the volume 3 commentary. My problem is that it's taking forever. I wouldn't mind the length if it was because of interesting plot lines, but they really haven't been.

I just hope you recognize that both this assertion and calling the Azure City arc "extremely high quality" are matters of opinion rather than fact. I find it unlikely, personally, that Roy's post-mortem character development serves no purpose to the plot, even if you don't consider it meaningful in and of itself. Belkar's development--and even Belkar losing the Mark of Justice--you don't even mention. Beyond that...


5) The potentially interesting story of Haley working on getting Roy resurrected is ruined by one person: Celia. I had some hopes for her being a decent character, but she's become more and more aggravating ever since they left Azure City; Miko never was as annoying as Celia. Miko, I loved to hate. Celia, I just hate. She's idiotic, refuses to accept any responsibility for her actions, is completely arrogant, and other than getting Haley to leave Azure City, she has done nothing but derail the plot. If I ever get around to finishing my review of Order of the Stick I'm working on, believe me that I'll have lots to say about why I hate her character.

...I confess it rather amuses me that you have such a violently negative reaction to the one character in the comic whose wishes for the comic's immediate development--"Sweep everything else out of the way and resurrect Roy immediately"--are similar to yours, even to her apparent wish for her own screen time to drop to "nothing until the epilogue." I don't think that's a coincidence, either. I'm certain Rich is aware that a vocal segment of his fans want Roy resurrected immediately and are aggravated by anything that doesn't visibly advance toward that goal, and I suspect that, just as he knowingly created Shojo to be a character who shared his personal goal of getting the Order to Azure City, he introduced Celia here as a character who would be unwilling to brook distractions from the "get Roy resurrected" goal, whatever the cost of that focus.

[valce]

Not having followed the comic from day one, I found (when I was catching up) that the pacing really was quite good for a sit-down read-through.

Any faster and things would seem too... jilted.

Yes, it may seem with the delays between each panel that things are going a little slowly, but OOTS is one of those strips that lends well to books and stuff.

[J.Gellert]

Timestop covered the entire island?

I imagine someone has said this before, but if Timestop covered the island, then the dragon is unaffected...

...and V may find himself with absolute power and absolute corruption and absolutely tricked because it will be too late?

[Lamech]

Timestop covered the entire island?

I imagine someone has said this before, but if Timestop covered the island, then the dragon is unaffected...
Time stop doesn't stop time it increases the speed the target by a lot, in this case the island. So V and the fiends and everything else on the island are acting very, very quickly, and could talk for what seems to be hours while only a second passes. To them it looks like time is stopped but really they are just moving quickly.

Hope that clears things up...

[Zanaril]

Timestop covered the entire island?

I imagine someone has said this before, but if Timestop covered the island, then the dragon is unaffected...

...and V may find himself with absolute power and absolute corruption and absolutely tricked because it will be too late?

I think the idea is that they didn't freeze time on the island, they stopped time everywhere else (or created some extra time where they are on the island). It just wasn't particually obvious.

Then again I may be wrong, and as you said that may be their plan all along...

EDIT: Darn, ninja'd! That's what happens when my computer takes two whole minutes to post a reply.

[Lord Seth]

I just hope you recognize that both this assertion and calling the Azure City arc "extremely high quality" are matters of opinion rather than fact. I find it unlikely, personally, that Roy's post-mortem character development serves no purpose to the plot, even if you don't consider it meaningful in and of itself. Belkar's development--and even Belkar losing the Mark of Justice--you don't even mention.You're right, I did forget to mention the bit about Belkar, which was actually kind of cool. Unfortunately, it doesn't make up for all of the other problems. To pull back the Avatar example, just because the finale looked cool and some parts were interesting doesn't excuse all of its plot holes, deus ex machinas, and hanging plot threads.


...I confess it rather amuses me that you have such a violently negative reaction to the one character in the comic whose wishes for the comic's immediate development--"Sweep everything else out of the way and resurrect Roy immediately"--are similar to yours, even to her apparent wish for her own screen time to drop to "nothing until the epilogue." I don't think that's a coincidence, either. I'm certain Rich is aware that a vocal segment of his fans want Roy resurrected immediately and are aggravated by anything that doesn't visibly advance toward that goal, and I suspect that, just as he knowingly created Shojo to be a character who shared his personal goal of getting the Order to Azure City, he introduced Celia here as a character who would be unwilling to brook distractions from the "get Roy resurrected" goal, whatever the cost of that focus.You mean like how she derailed the whole thing and Roy would've probably gotten resurrected over 50 strips ago if not for her massive stupidity? Yeah, she's really a character that is making sure Roy gets resurrected fast.

[Kish]

You mean like how she derailed the whole thing and Roy would've probably gotten resurrected over 50 strips ago if not for her massive stupidity? Yeah, she's really a character that is making sure Roy gets resurrected fast.
Really, now. Last time you made that same exact claim in almost the same words, you conceded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5648275#post5648275) that you were wrong and Roy's corpse would still be in Azure City while Haley was playing tag with the hobgoblins, not resurrected 50 strips ago, remember? That hasn't changed.

And I didn't say Celia's approach was effective--quite the contrary, actually.

[Kilyle]

Haven't had time to read this thread, but... has anyone noticed this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) as potentially applicable to the current situation?

"...I would employ every shred of my not inconsiderable arcane power to fight for my love."

I don't know how much he plans these stories in advance, but... that might even be foreshadowing.

[Zanaril]

Haven't had time to read this thread, but... has anyone noticed this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) as potentially applicable to the current situation?

"...I would employ every shred of my not inconsiderable arcane power to fight for my love."

I don't know how much he plans these stories in advance, but... that might even be foreshadowing.
I wouldn't doubt that one bit.

EDIT: Is that before or after Sabine talks to those three fiends?

EDIT(again): Nah, after.

[Xerrik]

I think the idea is that they didn't freeze time on the island, they stopped time everywhere else (or created some extra time where they are on the island). It just wasn't particually obvious.

In case anyone's read Artemis Fowl, I'm guessing it would happen like the time stop that they do when they're going to do a blue rinse on the manor. Or something like that.

[GodotIsW8ing4U]

I'm...conflicted about this arc. I love that V's getting some strong characterization, but I'm worried about his/her family.

With the general twist the comic seems to be taking, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if V shows up too late, kills the dragon in a blaze of anger, and then multi-classes into something that will keep him/her from being useless without spells. I'd be rather saddened, but not surprised.

[GodotIsW8ing4U]

Roy's taking longer than expected to get resurrected, but he'll probably get his body back soon enough. It's one of those grand cliches of tabletop RPGs; no PC ever gets left behind for good.

Of course, if there's one thing this strip does, it subverts such cliches as often as it plays them straight...

OH SHI-

[Xerrik]

Roy's taking longer than expected to get resurrected, but he'll probably get his body back soon enough. It's one of those grand cliches of tabletop RPGs; no PC ever gets left behind for good.

True; besides, he has a much better name than either Daigo or Kazumi, so that should count for something. Besides, what would be the point of him being trained by his grandfather if he wasn't going to use some sort of super secret ultimate technique passed down from generation to generation and only able to be used by those with the proper blood to destroy Xykon?

That would be pretty cool.

[Lord Seth]

Really, now. Last time you made that same exact claim in almost the same words, you conceded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5648275#post5648275) that you were wrong and Roy's corpse would still be in Azure City while Haley was playing tag with the hobgoblins, not resurrected 50 strips ago, remember? That hasn't changed.Yes, and she gained some points for me for doing that, then lost all of them for things she did afterwards, then lost even more, then just went straight into "worse than Jar Jar Binks" territory. But I think I'll reserve my complaints about Celia for another thread.

It's a shame, really, as I did have some hopes for Celia, but they were all dashed, then broken into pieces, then set on fire, then thrown into space, then disintegrated.

[Xerrik]

It's a shame, really, as I did have some hopes for Celia, but they were all dashed, then broken into pieces, then set on fire, then thrown into space, then disintegrated.

Did V do it? That would be pretty annoying.

Nice Arcanis avatar.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Maybe all of this has been said before, but eh, I'll say it.

The main conflict I see here is character development vs plot progression. Roy died so the other five could be showcased more and become less one-dimensional, such as talking head V and dumb blond Elan; and so some loose ends could be tied off, like Haley's past, Belkar's curse, and Mama B.Dragon; and so some Chekov's guns could be mounted on the wall, like Xykon's research, Roy's training, and MitD's intelligence. It's been almost 150 comics since Azure City was cloistered, and a lot has been done, whether or not it forwards what we want to be the 'main' goal.

I understand the hate towards Therkla and Celia, but they aren't there to further the plot, they are to further Char Dev. Elan finally grew out of Chaotic Shortbus with the Therkla plotline, and seems to finally be maturing as much as his stats allow him to. Haley's irresponsibility, especially as leader, is highlighted by her lack of honesty to Celia and inability to deal with her and Belkar. "I'm wanted dead in the city by people who have all the priests in their pocket and won't raise roy for us" would have stopped a whole lot of problems, and blaming celia for all of it isn't fair, though it does feel good :smallbiggrin:.

Honestly, I'm glad this is happening. It feels like this has to happen for us to care about trhese characters, and it's being taken care of now so it doesn't jar the flow later. It's like we've reached the top of a plateau with azure city falling, and been driving on the flot top for a while. We're now nearer the drive back down, and it's going to be fast and fun, so everyone make sure they've gone to the bathroom before we start, because we're flooring it.

[Warren Dew]

The main conflict I see here is character development vs plot progression.

I don't think it's character development so much as character exposition. It's not like Vaarsuvius is doing anything differently than would have happened 500 strips ago had the same situation arose, and for the most part, the same goes for the other characters.

I suspect even the character exposition is largely doomed, though. Some people have understood Vaarsuvius' personality all along; those that don't will continue to believe that the mother black dragon is justified.

For the most part what's interesting about the present arcs is still plot: it's just small, somewhat self contained subplots rather than the main plot.


I understand the hate towards Therkla and Celia, but they aren't there to further the plot, they are to further Char Dev.

I disagree, at least in the case of Celia. Celia is specifically there to further the plot, as without her Haley just deals with the moment and does not move things along. That group is closer to resurrecting Roy than they ever have been, and that's not only because Celia got Haley to get off her behind in Azure City, but also because she took the initiative to venture into Greysky city.

[Lord Seth]

I disagree, at least in the case of Celia. Celia is specifically there to further the plot, as without her Haley just deals with the moment and does not move things along. That group is closer to resurrecting Roy than they ever have been, and that's not only because Celia got Haley to get off her behind in Azure City, but also because she took the initiative to venture into Greysky city.No. For the love of heaven, no. Celia's "initiative" just got Roy turned into a golem and captured, dragging things out. Had Celia not taken that "initiative", they would've made it to Cliffport and gotten Roy resurrected without any trouble.


I understand the hate towards Therkla and Celia,

I personally don't have any hatred towards Therkla. Quite the contrary, I was actually liking her character and was interested to see where her character arc was headed, which is why it was all the more annoying that she died, leaving me wondering why we spent so much time on a character who in the end really didn't amount to anything.


"I'm wanted dead in the city by people who have all the priests in their pocket and won't raise roy for us" would have stopped a whole lot of problems, and blaming celia for all of it isn't fair, though it does feel good :smallbiggrin:.Haley didn't mention it because it's a secret, first off; she had reasons for keeping it a secret, too. But the thing is, she said, and I quote: "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." Why should she need to say more than that? It's perfectly reasonable to blame Celia for the whole thing.

[Kish]

No. For the love of heaven, no. Celia's "initiative" just got Roy turned into a golem and captured, dragging things out. Had Celia not taken that "initiative", they would've made it to Cliffport and gotten Roy resurrected without any trouble.
Fact (or close enough): Had Celia not taken that initiative, they would have continued on the path to Cliffport.
Unfounded speculation: Continuing on the path to Cliffport would have led to them reaching Cliffport and getting Roy resurrected with no trouble.

[Lord Seth]

Fact (or close enough): Had Celia not taken that initiative, they would have continued on the path to Cliffport.
Unfounded speculation: Continuing on the path to Cliffport would have led to them reaching Cliffport and getting Roy resurrected with no trouble.I can't imagine how there could have been more trouble than they got into with Greysky City.

[RedScholarGypsy]

I personally don't have any hatred towards Therkla. Quite the contrary, I was actually liking her character and was interested to see where her character arc was headed, which is why it was all the more annoying that she died, leaving me wondering why we spent so much time on a character who in the end really didn't amount to anything.

Haley didn't mention it because it's a secret, first off; she had reasons for keeping it a secret, too. But the thing is, she said, and I quote: "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." Why should she need to say more than that? It's perfectly reasonable to blame Celia for the whole thing.

Ah misunderstood with Therkla, it's more death hate. Cool.

As with Haley, by no means am I defending Celia. However, Just because something is a secret, and you have reasons, doesn't mean it's a good idea to keep it. I can understand that, hey, she's LG, she won't approve of running from the guild, but if you don't trust her with the small tidbit of "The clerics won't raise roy." Then you shouldn't trust her period. And since you know at that point that A) she is willful B) Naive and C) her sole motive at this point is to raise roy Haley should have done a better job of either securing roy or explaining to Celia.

This is not to say the Celia is to blame for all she does. She acted as she did and should shoulder the blame. But Haley didn't stop it, and is smart enough to have seen this coming. As Roy was made responsible for Belkar's actions, so to should Haley for Celia's.

Quick Edit: Maybe it's language we disagree with. I think Celia should be blamed, but that Haley is ultimately responsible, as a parent is with a child. That ate lead paint under the power lines....

[Warren Dew]

I can't imagine how there could have been more trouble than they got into with Greysky City.

I can tell you one thing that would have happened differently: Belkar would not have gotten the mark of justice removed. It's very doubtful that anyone in Cliffport knows the passphrase.

Now, you might be among those who would just as soon Belkar continued languishing under the mark - I am - but the Belkar fans owe Celia big time.

[Kish]

I can't imagine how there could have been more trouble than they got into with Greysky City.
Any such imagination would still be unfounded speculation, though I'm sure something would have gotten in their way. The important thing is not to assert such speculation as fact, either to bury Celia or to praise her. :smalltongue: I will, however, note that in the really unlikely event that stealing the golem from Grubwiggler and resurrecting Roy goes without a hitch from here, Roy will be resurrected a little over a week (comic-time) after Celia went into Greysky City. Would they even have reached Cliffport by that time?

[Xerrik]

As to the argument of how annoyed people are about not sticking with the "Resurrect Roy" story, I'm glad that we're sticking with Vaarsuvius. V is (i think) my favorite character, but I stopped liking V as much when V decided to blame itself for its failures and the death/loss of Roy/Azure City. I'm hoping that this will end V's non-trancing state and get V back to the way I like it.

[kusje]

Now, you might be among those who would just as soon Belkar continued languishing under the mark - I am - but the Belkar fans owe Celia big time.

I don't think Celia is owed anything other than a stab to the head. Do not mistake lucky events for prescience. She did not know such a thing would happen, did not even hope for it or actively work towards it and should not be given any credit.

For example, someone steals my passport just before I board my flight and I miss it. The flight crashes and everyone on it dies. I might be thankful that he stole my passport but I certainly won't thank him for stealing it.

[Xerrik]

Do not lucky events for prescience. She did not know such a thing would happen, did not even hope for it or actively work towards it and should not be given any credit.

I agree with this view. People should not be rewarded for dumb luck in the face of stupidity, no matter how events turn out.

[The Bookworm]

After reading this strip, I wondered whether the IFCC fiends would give V a 3.0 scroll of Teleport. After all, in 3.0 it wasn't of a barred domain (see 340: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html ). And we know 3.0 spells can sometimes be found (Z'ditri's 3.0 Fly) ...

[Red XIV]

I can't imagine how there could have been more trouble than they got into with Greysky City.
It would've taken more time and resulted in them having less money, for one thing. Haley didn't have anywhere near enough gold to fund a Resurrection before looting Grubwiggler's castle, remember?

[factotum]

Quite the contrary, I was actually liking her character and was interested to see where her character arc was headed, which is why it was all the more annoying that she died, leaving me wondering why we spent so much time on a character who in the end really didn't amount to anything.


There isn't much point in killing off a character you don't care about, is there? You just end up with a bunch of Star Trek redshirts that way. I suspect we spent so much time on Therkla so that her death would be more meaningful than Mook #317, and besides, that entire plot arc led indirectly to the one we're in the middle of right now, which may have further unforeseen consequences on the main plot...in fact, it's going to HAVE to have such consequences if V does attain ultimate arcane power right now!

[The Bookworm]

A Little Irony About Therkla: In Roy's Death Strip, he says "Delay Poison? Shilleagh Oil? Why do I even have these?" Delay Poison would've been useful for Therkla...

[David Argall]

besides, that entire plot arc led indirectly to the one we're in the middle of right now, which may have further unforeseen consequences on the main plot.
No, the Therkla-Kubota diversion is purely that. With minor adjustments, one could jump from 505 to 599 and V's story reads reasonably smoothly. There may yet be serious complications, but these are at the whim of the writer and do not naturally flow out of the story.

Therkla-Kubota must be judged on its own merits or lack of same. It is simply an addition to the plot, not a part of it.

[Taekwondodo]

Word. What makes all those people say that we're somehow away from the main plot?

True there isn't really a main plot at the moment and I don't think there has been one for some time.