What is a blood war? What is it good for?

[Totally Guy]

I've just not happened to come across this particular concept and as such I need it explaining.

Could someone make it simple for us casual gamers.

[hamishspence]

in 3.5, as outlined in Fiendish Codex 2, its the continuation of the War between Law and Chaos. the deities servants, powerful angels, fought the demons, keeping them from interfering while the deities were creating worlds and mortals.

Over time, these angels became corrupted by the war. and became devils- they still carry on the fight, but now, they corrupt mortal souls, making them into devils, as reinforcements.

This is a very basic summary.

[Saint Nil]

^Drat, ninjed.
The blood war is the eternal war between devil and demons, keeping them from overwhleming the universe.

Thus, it is good for all good people/gods.

[Rotipher]

In-character, it's a neverending war of extermination fought by devils and demons. Originally it might've had its roots in some deeper philosophical conflict, but now it's about the two sides' efforts to wipe each other out. Think Lawful Evil vs Chaotic Evil on a cosmic scale, while Neutral Evil treacherously eggs on and exploits both sides. The only ones to benefit are the non-Evil alignments, whom both sides are too busy to attack.


Out of character, it's the Planescape setting's solution for why there can be such vast (infinite?) numbers of demons and devils in the cosmology -- creatures which, when they find their way to the Material Plane, make wonderfully-nasty opponents for PCs -- yet these ancient, powerful, and inherently-vicious beings haven't already destroyed or conquered the multiverse, ages ago.

[hamishspence]

The older conflict was, I think, lawful elementals vs chaotic elementals- it spilled over into the lower planes. Wind Dukes of Aaqa (lawful, air beings) vs the Queen of Chaos (obyrith). The devils were initially non-evil servants of Law.

[Zherog]

And just in case you youngin's don't know...

"War!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing!"

Is a refrain from a Vietnam-era protest song titled "War" by Edwin Starr.

[raxies94]

It's really a pretty cool conflict too. Especially if you ever get into the stuff that suggests that the good gods occasionally help one side if the battle is too one-sided.

[krossbow]

The bloodwar is actually one of the more interesting bits of backstory and plot in dungeons and dragons. The conflict between Chaotic evil/ lawful evil is much more intricate and intriguing than the conflicts dealing with good individuals, plus it adds multiple ways for DM's to flavor fiendish contact.

It actually also legitimizes contact with devils somewhat, allowing for devilish NPC's to interact peacefully with other individuals and offer temptations without devolving into outright "i kill you all!" evil; Many of the neutral deities in Dungeons and dragons actively view devils in a friendly light so long as they keep their contracts in order, maintain their vows and continue to fight off the demons (Notable is kelemvor, the god/judge of the dead in the forgotten realms, who uses them as something of a police force to fend off demonic attacks on his city).

[Optimystik]

With that in mind, the concept of Fiend Cooperation is extremely scary. Should Baator and the Abyss join forces for whatever reason, the heavens would be overrun in a blink. However, it's likely that should the forces of evil band together, the neutral outsiders from Mechanus/Limbo would join with the side of Good to keep this from happening.

[David Argall]

The lower planes will not unite due to the nature of evil and the prisoners' dilemma.
While making and keeping a deal would be profitable for the forces of evil, making it and backstabbing/only pretending to make it in the first place, would be even more profitable, and that is true no matter what the other party does.
Both sides know this and know the other side, being evil, is not to be trusted a bit. So there will be efforts, as shown in the comic, to make such deals, but they will never amount to anything, sooner or later falling apart, and generally sooner as first to backstab the other wins.

[hamishspence]

"sooner or later" but it doesn't have to last long. It only has to last long enough- according to FC2, this is Asmodeus's plan- a truce, apocalyptic Good vs Evil war, then turn on the demons.

[MReav]

The whole "Devils and Demons getting together would overrun the Cosmos" concept has always been a sticking point with me. I really think it should just represent the height of arrogance these creatures have, with them having them ground themselves stupid, destroying any chance that claim was true, while the good guys basically have long since prepared for such an eventuality.

[snoopy13a]

The whole "Devils and Demons getting together would overrun the Cosmos" concept has always been a sticking point with me. I really think it should just represent the height of arrogance these creatures have, with them having them ground themselves stupid, destroying any chance that claim was true, while the good guys basically have long since prepared for such an eventuality.

If the good guys could defeat a combined army, why wouldn't they preemptive strike against the two divided armies?

[The Extinguisher]

Except that the Abyss is infinite. Therefore there are infinte demons. It just so happens that most of them eat each other.

The conflict and schemes of the outer planes have always been my favourite subjects to work with. I'm working on a campaign where the demons (in disguise) hire out the good guys to take down the Nine Hells while they swoop in to win the Blood War. Fun times.

[FoE]

The Blood War was sort of complex. At its simplest, it was "demons vs. devils". But there are also the daemons, who switch teams with every other week and play the two sides against each other. The really powerful demons and devils don't really care about the conflict, but that's largely because they're warring with each other. And the angels and the gods just try to get us all fighting each other, 'cause they're scared of what happens when we stop.

For the most part, it was just there to relieve boredom. Torturing souls gets boring after a while, especially if you're an immortal devil. And some demons literally can't go a whole day without killing someone, so the Blood War keeps them fightin'.

I say "was" because the Blood War doesn't happen anymore in 4E. There are skirmishes, but there's nowhere near the sort of conflict there used to be. I guess the IFCC must have finally got enough names on their petition to send to WotC. Maybe now they'll stop sending me their damn pamphlets. :smallannoyed:

[[TS] Shadow]

The Blood War was sort of complex. At its simplest, it was "demons vs. devils". But there are also the daemons, who switch teams with every other week and play the two sides against each other. The really powerful demons and devils don't really care about the conflict, but that's largely because they're warring with each other. And the angels and the gods just try to get us all fighting each other, 'cause they're scared of what happens when we stop.

For the most part, it was just there to relieve boredom. Torturing souls gets boring after a while, especially if you're an immortal devil. And some demons literally can't go a whole day without killing someone, so the Blood War keeps them fightin'.

I say "was" because the Blood War doesn't happen anymore in 4E. There are skirmishes, but there's nowhere near the sort of conflict there used to be. I guess the IFCC must have finally got enough names on their petition to send to WotC. Maybe now they'll stop sending me their damn pamphlets. :smallannoyed:

Don't you mean "damned packets?" HAHAHAH...I know it was a crappy joke. More importantly, I don't care.

[Optimystik]

For the most part, it was just there to relieve boredom. Torturing souls gets boring after a while, especially if you're an immortal devil. And some demons literally can't go a whole day without killing someone, so the Blood War keeps them fightin'.

Your cause-effect is slightly misplaced; the torturing of souls that the devils engage in started long AFTER the Blood War began. Devils used to be Archons that took on demonic features and attitudes to better combat their foes. They then began taking the souls of mortals to fuel their war efforts both against the Abyss and against the machinations of the Upper Planes.

As a contrast, demons have much less interest in souls than devils do. They don't have formal Pacts, they consider possessing a body to be just as entertaining as corrupting a soul; they just want everything obliterated. As Fiendish Codex sums it up: "Demons want to destroy, Devils want to conquer."


I say "was" because the Blood War doesn't happen anymore in 4E. There are skirmishes, but there's nowhere near the sort of conflict there used to be. I guess the IFCC must have finally got enough names on their petition to send to WotC. Maybe now they'll stop sending me their damn pamphlets. :smallannoyed:

The reason the Blood War is much less prominent in 4E is that Asmodeus' plan to achieve godhood has succeeded; following the destruction of Dweomerheart (Mystra's domain in Faerunian mythos), he became exponentially more powerful. He is now a deity in truth, having utterly consumed such unfortunates as Azuth that fell into hell amidst the coup and appropriated their divine sparks, and in 4E core has domains like Evil and Tyranny under his belt. I'm not sure what the Greyhawk analogue of Dweomerheart's destruction is, but Asmodeus seems to have achieved godhood in both core and Faerun so there must be an explanation.

[FoE]

I can't speak to Greyhawk, but I now what happened in the generic unnamed setting introduced in the Core books:

The Primordials — ancient, incredibly powerful elementals —*were the start of everything. EVERYTHING. But then a war broke out between them and the gods. The Chained God (who was not chained then) planted a "seed of evil" in the Elemental Chaos, and it caused some of the Primordials and their elemental counterparts to change. The Abyss was born out of that seed, and now the demons simply stand for destruction. No one, as far as I can tell, directly oppose them, though every race has a stake in keeping the demons confined to the Abyss.

The devils were the servant angels of a now-dead god who decided to rebel against him. They defeated his armies and the god himself, whose name has been lost to memory. But his dying curse was powerful enough to strike down his former servants and twist their bodies into terrifying mockeries of the angels they once were. It also trapped them in the god's realm, which became the Nine Hells. They are still trapped there, but they have discovered ways for small numbers of them to escape, and now they work to capture mortal souls so that one day they break free of their prison.

[MReav]

If the good guys could defeat a combined army, why wouldn't they preemptive strike against the two divided armies?

It's the steamrolling implication that bugs me. Also, in my head, the good guys have their own Law Vs Chaos divisiveness, it just never escalates beyond a shouting match and a refusal to work together until the chips are down.


Except that the Abyss is infinite. Therefore there are infinte demons. It just so happens that most of them eat each other.

Thing is, the other planes themselves are infinite, just in an infinite overlapping manner.

[Optimystik]

It's the steamrolling implication that bugs me. Also, in my head, the good guys have their own Law Vs Chaos divisiveness, it just never escalates beyond a shouting match and a refusal to work together until the chips are down.

It is less of a lack of desire to work together than sheer insurmountable incompatibility. The tactics employed by Archons are positively alien to Eladrin, and vice-versa. They see the need to cooperate, but doing so for anything larger than a skirmish is unhelpful at best and downright counterproductive at worst.

[Zevox]

If the good guys could defeat a combined army, why wouldn't they preemptive strike against the two divided armies?
If my memory of some of the discussions I've read from Planescape fans over on the WotC boards is accurate, they tried once, actually. It didn't work out. Both sides fought back, a couple of good-aligned deities and lots of good-aligned outsiders got killed, and the Celestials retreated. That's why the Celestials fear the possibility of the two sides ever working together - they've seen what can happen when they're forced to.

Zevox

[krossbow]

If the good guys could defeat a combined army, why wouldn't they preemptive strike against the two divided armies?



See here's the thing; thats only "good" characters. Neutral characters are for all intents and purposes, neutral. That means they won't automatically voice support for such an action if its undertaken.

It won't be just demonic and devilish forces they would contend with, they would STILL have to end up arguing, if not fighting, with neutral beings and deities who have pacts or agreements with evil outsiders.

After all, the Devils, for all their evil actions, are STILL technically fulfilling their original contract to the letter of the pact primeval. In fact, its quite common for lawful neutral deities to be on cordial terms with devils.




Neutral means no predisposition towards either good or evil, and neutral tends to outnumber good and evil in the universe. At the end of the day, destroying the hells and the abyss would STILL be an act of genocide, even if its justified, and neutral individuals might have qualms about such acts.

[Cúchulainn]

Mechanus here, whichever side allies with a chaotic force first loses.

No exceptions.

Yours truly,
Law.

[Pronounceable]

It's the steamrolling implication that bugs me. Also, in my head, the good guys have their own Law Vs Chaos divisiveness, it just never escalates beyond a shouting match and a refusal to work together until the chips are down.

My opinion is they have their own war going on in the upper planes. Being good, they don't battle, but battle politically and intellectually. Granting favors to prime worlds/deities/factions for favors or to sway them towards their side of ethic axis, social engineering, jockeying for position in organizations, creating works of art (books, paintings, plays, poems...) that promote their view and deride the other, setting up grand events where philosophers of both sides can do battle, hosting talk shows, sending out evangelists, maybe a little bit of "intelligence work" now and then... Every conceivable thing (and probably some inconceivable ones, seeing these are int20+ immortal creatures) short of outright violence utilized to show everyone that the other side sucks and theirs is the only true way. A state of perpetual Cold War.

Just because they're good doesn't mean they are any less inhumanly zealous about alignment than fiends.


EDIT: Why don't you see this stuff in game books? Propaganda, of course.

[magic9mushroom]

The Blood War is the devils protecting all of the cosmos from being destroyed by the demons. If the demons ever won, they'd devour the good guys because they outnumber them by such a ridiculous margin. After that, they'd devour everybody and each other, and the laws of the universe would be obliterated. If the devils ever won, they'd turn on the gods, wtfpwn them because they have their whole soul-harvesting thing going and have numbers + tactics, and enslave the planes.

[JonestheSpy]

The Blood War is the devils protecting all of the cosmos from being destroyed by the demons. If the demons ever won, they'd devour the good guys because they outnumber them by such a ridiculous margin. After that, they'd devour everybody and each other, and the laws of the universe would be obliterated. If the devils ever won, they'd turn on the gods, wtfpwn them because they have their whole soul-harvesting thing going and have numbers + tactics, and enslave the planes.

Eh, I'm still of camp that thinks that Good does not need Evil fighting against itself to survive.

Planes are infinite - you can't have bigger infinities. There is just as much room for devils in the Hells as there is for demons in the Abyss - not to mention room for an infinite number of Good outsiders. To me the Infinte Layers vs Nine Hells just means the Abyss has a lot more variety - which is to be expected.

Aside from a combination of cynicism and the assumption that you need a ridiculous number of fiends to be potential sword fodder for adventurers, why do people think that evil is so much more powerful than good?

Anyway, I suspect the IFCC is Burlew's way of not just dodging the Blood War, but the whole issue of the different Lower Planes and still fit into official dnD cosmology. Instead of having to parse the implications of Varsuvius selling his soul to Chaotic Evil fiends vs Lawful Evil fiends, he can just say "V's selling his soul". I've already mentioned my view that Burlew's Upper Planes are really all one Heaven with different neighborhoods - I suspect the same is true for the Lower Planes as well.

[SmartAlec]

Planes are infinite - you can't have bigger infinities.

The Planes are all considered infinite because they don't obey conventional geography, but aren't necessarily mathematically infinite; just philosophically infinite. For example, the three layers of Arborea are all 'infinite', yet they are all contained within the Plane of Arborea, which is itself infinite, yet has boundaries. But the Abyss might actually be mathematically infinite, because it might have a mathematically infinite amount of layers.

Also bear in mind that the Blood War itself doesn't make any sense if we assume there are infinite amounts of forces on all sides. The balance of forces has always been this: the Devils have the organisation, the weapons and the tactics, and the Demons have limitless numbers. If the Devils also had limitless numbers, they would win.

(Worth making the distinction that the Devils do have an ever-replenishing pool of potential recruits, but they do not have an infinitely-large army at any one time.)

[snafu]

Planes are infinite - you can't have bigger infinities.

Tell it to Georg Cantor.

But you're conceptually correct. Let Baator consist of nine planes each containing aleph-null devils. Let the Abyss consist of aleph-null planes each containing aleph-null demons.

Then we can put the devils into 1:1 correspondence with the integers by counting modulo 9: devil number 1 is the first devil on the first plane. Devil number 2 is the first devil on the second plane. ... Devil number 10 is the second devil on the first plane. Devil n is the (n mod 9) + 1th devil on the (remainder when n is divided by 9) + 1th plane. So the cardinality of the set of devils is aleph-null.

Similarly we can represent each demon by his position in the Abyss: he can be identified as the xth demon on the yth plane. This is equivalent to the question of the countability of the rationals, except that, for example, 4/2 is a distinct demon from 8/4. Still, the same zig-zag plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagonal_argument.svg) can be used to count all the demons and again put them into 1:1 correspondence with the integers.

So the set of demons has the same cardinality as the set of devils, and both have the same cardinality as the set of integers. In other words, for every demon, there is a devil, and for every devil, there is a demon... provided only that you know how to count them.

[Kami2awa]

Eh, I'm still of camp that thinks that Good does not need Evil fighting against itself to survive.

Planes are infinite - you can't have bigger infinities.

Yes, you can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number

[Volkov]

Even the Devils vastly outnumber all the celestials in all the upper planes. So if one of the four major fiends or worse yet all of them could focus on the upper planes, there would be no Seven heavens, there would be the Seven Smoking craters.

The yugoloths plan on ending the war when the time is right and bringing the Demons, the Demodands, the Devils, and the Yugoloths under one banner to crush the Upper planes, The poor angels would be so vastly outnumbered that it wouldn't be funny.

Think how badly outnumbered the good guys are in lord of the rings, times a googolplex. Plus Asmodeus has Hundreds of millions if not Billions of Max hit dice pit fiends and trillions if not quadrillions of max hit dice bearded devils waiting for this conflict. If he Used that army you can kiss a nice after life good bye.

[Akatosh]

Mechanus here, whichever side allies with a chaotic force first loses.


As soon as one Modron is destroyed, a replacement spawns.

Yaaay. :smallannoyed:

[MReav]

Think how badly outnumbered the good guys are in lord of the rings, times a googolplex. Plus Asmodeus has Hundreds of millions if not Billions of Max hit dice pit fiends and trillions if not quadrillions of max hit dice bearded devils waiting for this conflict. If he Used that army you can kiss a nice after life good bye.

Where do all these extra infinities come from? Why don't the good guys have their own quintillions of Max Hit Dice Astral Devas, Planetars, Solars, and Singularitars (sorry, had to throw in that custom Angel I once made). I know the fluff, I just don't understand the reasoning behind it beyond "something for the PCs to protect the universe against".

[SmartAlec]

Where do all these extra infinities come from? Why don't the good guys have their own quintillions of Max Hit Dice Astral Devas, Planetars, Solars, and Singularitars (sorry, had to throw in that custom Angel I once made).

I may be wrong, but I think it's got something to do with the Good planes not pressing lots of the souls that come their way into military service. Only exceedingly pure souls can become Archons, I think, whereas pretty much any soul can be absorbed by the Hells or the Abyss and be 'recycled' as a Fiend.

That disparity's got to add up over time.

[theMycon]

Planes are infinite - you can't have bigger infinities.
To ignore the Axiom of Choice* and other higher-math-reliant proofs above, Here's the easy way to think of it:
You have all the Natural Numbers (counting numbers... 1, 2, 3, 4... etc. Sometimes 0, matter of preference) on one number line.

Below it, you have all positive real numbers (1, sqrt(2), e, pi, 4... etc) on a second number line.

Both of these go from 0 to infinity. Which has more numbers on it?
---------------------------

The natural numbers are "countably infinite", meaning you can enumerate a section- you can write a list and make sure you didn't skip any, although you'll never reach the end. The real numbers are "uncountably infinite". Whichever two numbers you write, there's an infinite amount of numbers between them. You simply can't have two "consecutive" numbers.

Between 0 & 1 on natural numbers, there's nothing. Between 0 & 1 real numbers, there are uncountably infinite numbers.


*Basically, higher math's way of saying "we know that, if we pick & choose right, we can make this work. That's obvious. Let's not sweat the details."

[SoC175]

Note that the blood war isn't just chaotic evil vs. lawful evil. It's chaotic vs. lawfull, while fiends are the ones doing most of the fighting the schism between chaotic and lawful runs through all planes of existence.

Even the upper planes are divided by their chaotic and lawful natures. While being good prevents bloodshed between chaotic good and lawful good their constand arguments can heat up quickly.

The cause for celestials not being more active in the actual fighting is because whenever a chaotic good army wants to march out fighting devils the lawful good guys protest because that would shift the cosmos more toward chaos. And if the lawful good guys want to take the field against demons, they're stopped by the chaotic good celestials because that would shift the balance toward law. Because of this CG and LG mostly resort to secretly aid their respective sides of the conflict instead of openly sending armies (e.g. deliberately allowing for holy weapons to be stolen by the fiends for use in the blood war, campaigning on the material plane to convince good mortals of the merrits of chaos/law and stuff like this).

The lawful neutral and chaotic neutral have now qualms of slaying each other and often participate for their side on the battlefields of the blood war.

It is less of a lack of desire to work together than sheer insurmountable incompatibility. The tactics employed by Archons are positively alien to Eladrin, and vice-versa. They see the need to cooperate, but doing so for anything larger than a skirmish is unhelpful at best and downright counterproductive at worst.
The point is that they see each other as poor missguided creatures. While they appreciate their goodness, it's a tragedy that the other side is soo blinded by the wrong philosophy of law/chaos.

[shadowfox]

Plus Asmodeus has Hundreds of millions if not Billions of Max hit dice pit fiends and trillions if not quadrillions of max hit dice bearded devils waiting for this conflict. If he Used that army you can kiss a nice after life good bye.

It's not the sheer number of devils... I mean, I'm not going to say your math is wrong, but I think that you overestimate things. Yes, there are countless devils, but out of the massive hordes of the most basic form (can't recall the name of them at the time), very few are every promoted beyond that.

Now, to remember devils have the trained fighters, whereas demons have the countless hordes. The only reason evil hasn't consumed the other planes is, simply put, because of the "in-fighting" (or, more accurately, the original alignment conflict (Law vs. Chaos)). Yes, if they weren't fighting, devils probably could go toe-to-toe with the other planes. With demons, than your numbers are closer to correct, if you drop "Pit fiend" and "bearded devils" references.

You have to keep in mind that the uber-powerful, feared defensive force that guards entry into the 9th layer of Baator is guarded by 9990-9999 troops. Yes, they're elites, but still. Promotions in Baator are very, VERY selective, due to limited resources. Skill is important, not numbers.

As for demons, remember that they come from the unending abyss.

Edit:
[QUOTE=SoC175;5790744]Note that the blood war isn't just chaotic evil vs. lawful evil. It's chaotic vs. lawfull, while fiends are the ones doing most of the fighting the schism between chaotic and lawful runs through all planes of existence.[QUOTE]

The Blood War is, literally, CE vs. LE. Flat out, but that's only because the seperation of devils from the celestial planes (which created the original conflict of Good vs. Evil). If the demons win, they universe is destroyed. Literally. They'll consume the universe, and then each other, leaving nothing behind. You don't go out and send an army to fight devils because they're evil or because thy're lawful; devils only have, roughly, a 50% win percentage against demons. Fighting the devils because they're devils would be just plain stupid, and not in the best interests of anybody, because any imbalance could, in theory, throw the balance of the fate of the universe to the demons. Now, to fight devils because they're interfering where they shouldn't be? That's fine. Save some souls, or stop them from blackmailing. All good. Outright going and killing devils on their home plane, where they'll STAY DEAD? Not good. Big no-no. Doesn't matter about shifting the balance of the universe to Chaos, but, rather, the Chaotic Evil demons.

[NerfTW]

If the good guys could defeat a combined army, why wouldn't they preemptive strike against the two divided armies?

I was under the impression it was due to the "who's the bigger enemy" situation. If good openly attacks the lower planes, their petty blood war is going to stop very quickly, and they'll join together. As long as good just lets them fight amongst themselves, they don't have to worry about any significant attacks.

Think of it like three countries. Countries A and B are fighting eachother. Country C just builds up its defenses, and doesn't attack either one. Its interests are being served by not having to devote resources to an extended war with either or both, leaving it free to pursue other goals.

[Eldan]

Fighting devils because they are devils is stupid? Tell the Eladrin.

Also, the Yugoloth are very busy experimenting on the blood war and getting the impurities out of evil, of course.

[Warren Dew]

The natural numbers are "countably infinite", meaning you can enumerate a section- you can write a list and make sure you didn't skip any, although you'll never reach the end. The real numbers are "uncountably infinite". Whichever two numbers you write, there's an infinite amount of numbers between them. You simply can't have two "consecutive" numbers.

Between 0 & 1 on natural numbers, there's nothing. Between 0 & 1 real numbers, there are uncountably infinite numbers.

These may seem related, but they aren't.

You can't have two rational numbers - numbers expressible as a fraction with an integral numerator and denominator - that are "consecutive", either. However, rational numbers are countable.

Given the demons and devils come in discrete packages - that is, individual demons and devils - I can't see how they could be uncountable.

[theMycon]

You can't have two rational numbers - numbers expressible as a fraction with an integral numerator and denominator - that are "consecutive", either. However, rational numbers are countable.
Well, duh. But that was just to give a simple, common-sense explaination of how there can be different degrees of infinity, in a sense that takes no real math to understand.

Should we want to actually explain how & why it all works, I'd need a dry erase board & his personal attention, a lot of images, or a booket on introductory analysis. While I would love do that, a thread on The Blood War is not the palce for it.


Given the demons and devils come in discrete packages - that is, individual demons and devils - I can't see how they could be uncountable.
Nor do I, which is why I didn't call either side uncountably infinite. Author fiat says, while there are infinitely many of both sides, Demons are a bigger infinity than Devils. Thus I used the simplified explanation only to show how there can be such a thing as a bigger infinity.

I personally consider it a matter of recycling- a lawful evil creature that dies a thousand times over starts to go insane, and whatever automatic sorting overdeity that assigns souls to their proper afterlife will eventually get bored & decide they're chaotic enough. so they throw 'em to the abyss for their post-post-afterlife. Whereas chaotic ones don't even bother with the paperwork and just throw 'em straight back into the fray. Like a respawn in an MMO.

Or, possibly, it's less a bored-functionary overdeity and more a traditional-omnipotent overdeity, which wants the blood war to rage on for eternity, and it fully understands all the factions in the abyss. He likes keeping them roughly equivalent for whatever reason, and occasionally ups the ante for inscrutable purposes which would surely ruin our puny mortal minds.

[enarch3t]

I loved the idea that the Abyss had endless troops and that Hell had troops that were virtually impossible to kill, I think Hell's grunts were Lemures or something like that, they would reform and regenerate from the pieces.

From what I remember the Devil's always used strategy to win wile the Demon's just sent wave after endless wave to win battles. These "endless" waves consisted of whatever forces a greater Demon could pull together, and that demon had to be careful not to use up too much of his strength in the battle. If that demon did, other demons would swoop in and replace him, that is kill him. So, Demon's might have infinite resources but they don't have the social structure that allows them to manage their resources to the maximum potential. On the other hand Devil's maximize their resources. And, while their resources might be vast, and replenishable, it is not infinite (in terms of immediate troops available). At least, that is always how I viewed the blood wars working. The Devil's are not free from backstabbing and the such, but there is a definite hierarchy that controls the formations of the armies and the command structure.

On a side note, I thought that Mount Celestia was infinitely tall?

Anyone else remember those greater "Angels" that have the infinite slay anything +5 arrows? And Planatars are insanely powerful too, man I miss my planescape stuff. That was always my favorite setting.

[jamroar]

At least, that is always how I viewed the blood wars working. The Devil's are not free from backstabbing and the such, but there is a definite hierarchy that controls the formations of the armies and the command structure.


Also, the demon "princes" are openly gunning for each other as much as they are for the devils or the forces of good, whereas all devils are ostensibly on the same side under Asmodeus. It's every fiend for himself in the Abyss, which is the epitome of Chaotic behavior.



On a side note, I thought that Mount Celestia was infinitely tall?

It's seperated into seven discreet layers though, unlike the Abyss which supposedly stretches with infinite layers all the way down. Which is not as weird as the city of Sigil, which rests at the top of an infinitely tall spire and yet is visible from the ground level of the Outlands. Planar distances are funny that way (or some sages have been liberally waxing poetic).

[snafu]

On a side note, I thought that Mount Celestia was infinitely tall?

Needn't be a problem to a dedicated climber who isn't worried about petty concerns like the speed of light, or finite availability of energy, or enormous accelerations reducing him to chunky salsa.

You climb one metre in the first hour. You climb another metre in the next half-hour. You climb a third metre in the next quarter-hour. You climb a fourth metre in a mere 12.5 minutes. The fifth metre you climb in six minutes 15 seconds. And so on. After two hours, you're at the top.

[SoC175]

The Blood War is, literally, CE vs. LE. Flat out, but that's only because the seperation of devils from the celestial planes (which created the original conflict of Good vs. Evil).
It's also modrons vs. demons, slaad vs. devils, modron vs. slaad, slaad vs. archon, aasimon vs. modron, ....

If the demons win, they universe is destroyed. Literally. They'll consume the universe, and then each other, leaving nothing behind.
No, it would be turned into a CE nightmare. The destroy everything approach is a new 4e thing.

You don't go out and send an army to fight devils because they're evil or because thy're lawful;
That's exactly what aasimon would like (if the archons wouldn't protest most of the time) and what the slaad do (if the feel like participating in the blood war and can remember which side they're supposed to support until they arrive). They modron also have a permanent blood war army that is always fighting somewhere for the cause of law and slays CG just as quickly as CE.

Fighting the devils because they're devils
Not because they're devils, but because they're lawfull (well for CG it's actually both, because they're fiends and because they're lawfull).

would be just plain stupid, and not in the best interests of anybody,
It's in the interest of the forces of chaos. If CG can strike at either CE or LE and none is currently doing something particular vile, CG will always strike at LE to further the cause of chaos while furthering the cause of good.

because any imbalance could, in theory, throw the balance of the fate of the universe to the demons.
It would first create an imbalance favoring chaos and that's could for all chaotic parties. Which of the three would then end up on top is annother matter.

Now, to fight devils because they're interfering where they shouldn't be? That's fine. Save some souls, or stop them from blackmailing. All good. Outright going and killing devils on their home plane, where they'll STAY DEAD? Not good. Big no-no. Doesn't matter about shifting the balance of the universe to Chaos, but, rather, the Chaotic Evil demons.
Chaotic gods (from CG to CE) to just that as do chaotic planar lords.

[SoC175]

Here's a direct quote from the sourcebook Hellbound the Blood War:

Occasionally, squabbling breaks out between the lawful and chaotic celestials, usually when it looks like the flends are weak and especially vulnerable to attack. That's when the infighting erupts - which armies should the celestials hammer? The orderly archons call for the total eradication of the tanar'ri, for the baatezu are a foe they can understand and maneuver against. The asuras and the chaotic aasimon, on the other hand, can't imagine the triumph of law - which is what the victory of the baatezu would entail. They refer the random actions of the tanar'ri, believing that chance should determine the fate of the multiverse. Thus, the forces of good hamstring themselves just when they could make a decisive blow against their mortal enemies.[...]the dogmas of law and chaos will split the Upper Planes as well as the Lower.
[...]
As creatures of elemental chaos, the slaadi have a strong interest in making sure the baatezu don't gain an upper hand in the war. The triumph of the baatezu means a triumph of law, which means a loss of the glories of chaos
[...]
Tireless servants of order, the modrons devote themselves resolutely to promoting law in the Blood War"

[snafu]

Nor do I, which is why I didn't call either side uncountably infinite. Author fiat says, while there are infinitely many of both sides, Demons are a bigger infinity than Devils. Thus I used the simplified explanation only to show how there can be such a thing as a bigger infinity.

Wait, wait, wait... the demons are a larger infinity than the devils, but a _smaller_ infinity than the real numbers?

Is author fiat even allowed to weigh in on the continuum hypothesis? I mean, could the authors say something like 'In the D&D universe, Fermat's Last Theorem is false, oh, and the value of e is exactly 4'?

I think I'm having a meltdown here. Define the gods and the devils as you like; let space have four or eleven or twenty-six dimensions as you see fit; let gravity work backwards or all of infinite space be filled with milk (a suitably chosen cosmological constant will prevent collapse), it's your Universe within which you can do as you please... but mathematics? That's the same everywhere. It _has_ to be. Otherwise...

* starts gibbering insanely *

[SoC175]

but mathematics? That's the same everywhere. It _has_ to be. Otherwise...
Mathematics should work well in the Hells, Mechanus or Celestia, but better don't try to apply them while in the Abysss, Limbo, or Arborea

[snafu]

Mathematics should work well in the Hells, Mechanus or Celestia, but better don't try to apply them while in the Abysss, Limbo, or Arborea

Or indeed aboard the Starship Bistromath.

True enough I suppose that mathematics are the epitome of a Lawful pursuit; but the kind of dissolution of logic implied here is frightening. It makes the Chaotic realms into something resembling Through the Looking-Glass...

... which, come to think of it, would be fantastic.


'A slow sort of country!' said the Queen. 'Now, HERE, you see, it takes all the running YOU can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!'

That one always screwed with my little mind :-)

[krossbow]

"infinite" demons as i understood it merely meant an infinite amount in time; that being, demons will spawn in perpetuity simply out of chaos. Even were the abyss destroyed, the nature of the universe would cause more to pop out into the world.


While they are technically infinite in that you can never actually end the battle, they would still be finite at that point in time; but as time itself is infinite, then demons would be infinite and the battle would literally go on forever even if you killed them down to the last fiend (as more would spawn the next day), rendering it pointless as far as the lawful gods were concerned.
This would also explain why demons also "recruit" souls by stealing them for conversion into low level demonic troops (demons constantly attack the living wall of souls in the forgotten realm's afterlife, tearing them out and obsconding with them)

Which is why that a constant war would be required, not to defeat the demons, but to cull their numbers and keep them in check. Similiar principle to why simply killing enemy forces in an RTS won't win the game straight up.

Hence, were demons and devils to stop fighting, their forces would rapidly build up and expand to levels dwarfing the good forces of the universe.

[The Extinguisher]

I've always though of it as yes, all the planes and sub-planes and all that are infinite in size, but that's outwards, like how space is infinite, but that doesn't mean there's an infinite amount of stuff.

The Abyss, however, has an infinite amount of layers, which are infinite. It's infinitely down, like if there was an infinite amount of spaces. But of course, there's always a bigger demon, so we don't see much of the really low layers.


Also, the demon "princes" are openly gunning for each other as much as they are for the devils or the forces of good, whereas all devils are ostensibly on the same side under Asmodeus. It's every fiend for himself in the Abyss, which is the epitome of Chaotic behavior.

The archdevils fight as much as the demons. They just aren't as open about it. Everyone remember that rebellion that failed.

[DrakebloodIV]

These may seem related, but they aren't.

You can't have two rational numbers - numbers expressible as a fraction with an integral numerator and denominator - that are "consecutive", either. However, rational numbers are countable.

Given the demons and devils come in discrete packages - that is, individual demons and devils - I can't see how they could be uncountable.

This comes more from a dogmatic standpoint than a mathematic one.

The old jewish tora says that when the angels were cast out of heaven 'ten thousand' (Which is the highest real number in ancient Jewish, implying infinity) angels were cast down. Meanwhile ten thousand on ten thousand (Three possible translations 10,000+10,000; 10,000x10,000; or 10,000^10,000; in other words a larger infinite number) angels were left in heaven. The existence of an infinite amount of Devils can be debated, but the core concept remains the same. The sheer number of existing Devils is such that in any mathematical system you use the number is in effect 'uncountable' due to the fact that it becomes impossible to use any system to count them, they just reproduce/appear/exist in such sheer numbers that even counting in exponents is completely implausible.

[Ladorak]

Wait, wait, wait... the demons are a larger infinity than the devils, but a _smaller_ infinity than the real numbers?

Is author fiat even allowed to weigh in on the continuum hypothesis? I mean, could the authors say something like 'In the D&D universe, Fermat's Last Theorem is false, oh, and the value of e is exactly 4'?

I think I'm having a meltdown here. Define the gods and the devils as you like; let space have four or eleven or twenty-six dimensions as you see fit; let gravity work backwards or all of infinite space be filled with milk (a suitably chosen cosmological constant will prevent collapse), it's your Universe within which you can do as you please... but mathematics? That's the same everywhere. It _has_ to be. Otherwise...

* starts gibbering insanely *

This isn't actually mine but it's good advice...


On the subject of extraplanar geography, The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy advises that you not ponder it too deeply unless you want your brain exploded. It is not so much that trying to understand it will burst your cranium, but rather than an exploded brain is a prerequisite to obtain any appreciable degree of understanding.

The features of individual planes can vary from finite dimensions, to the completely infinite, to selectively infinite (such as a plane with a clearly defined Z-axis, but where the X- and Y- axes are infinite), to even less comprehensible structures, such as that of the Abyss, a plane made up of an infinite number of layers, each of which is of finite size, and which may or may not be a finite distance apart. But the one thing that remains constant in the Abyss is that the geography of individual layers tends to change, even though specific points of interest (such as demonic fortresses) remain the same. Besides which, it is difficult to say which is more maddening; the idea that you are standing on an infinite plain, or to stand at the edge and notice that 'Hmm, it seems this dimension ends here.'

Now in case you are some sort of mathematician, or string-theory physicist, accustomed to dealing with varrying degrees of finite infinity, some planes are not so easy to understand...

Add to this the various relations between the planes; it is possible to travel from one plane to another, which of course makes it tempting to create a sort of map. Would-be mapmakers, however, are often confounded, because while some planes are conveniently tangent to one-another, others partially or wholely overlap (for example, the Ethereal plane overlaps the Prime Material Plane completely, allowing the use of spells which make the user temporarily Ethereal, usually allowing him to avoid obnoxious enemies and spells, unless they have their own Ethereal jaunt abilities or Force spells, the latter being capable of affecting Ethereal and Material targets with equal ease). In fact, the Astral Plane touches every part of every other plane, and since distances therein bear absolutely no relation to our usual concept of distance, it is through the Astral Plane that Teleportation effects function.

Overall, this is just another topic that is best ignored. There's a reason that so many adventurers settle down in the Prime Material plane, concerning themselves only with the various simple-to-understand (and to smite) trolls and owlbears, and making every effort possible to avoid dying, because if they were to die, they would likely be subjected to all sorts of planar politics as beings of deific power tried to determine which plane the poor dead soul should end up on.

[Volkov]

Where do all these extra infinities come from? Why don't the good guys have their own quintillions of Max Hit Dice Astral Devas, Planetars, Solars, and Singularitars (sorry, had to throw in that custom Angel I once made). I know the fluff, I just don't understand the reasoning behind it beyond "something for the PCs to protect the universe against".

Because the good guys don’t have Asmodeus who whenever he loses a drop of blood has a max hit dice pit fiend pop out, and every time the pit fiends lose a drop of blood a max hit dice barbazu pops up.

[David Argall]

Now, to remember devils have the trained fighters, whereas demons have the countless hordes.

I have always felt this "logic" to be a flaw in D&D campaigns. My guess is that the writers had a bias in favor of lawful, organized armies and could not think of anything else to balance the sides beside giving the Chaotics greater numbers.
It's not a good idea in any case. All alignments, and their subplanes, should have infinite numbers. Giving only one side infinite numbers means that side will win, period. Extra skill [short of infinite] will only balance a finite number of enemy, and the infinite numbers would win out.
Better would have been to point out that organization is not always useful. An organized army lacks flexibility. It marches right into the obvious trap if the general is a fool [which is sometimes thought to be a job requirement]. In our chaos vs law war, a lawful army ordered to take a chaotic hill will be in serious problems when the hill decides to become a lake while the chaotic defenders are used to dealing with such changes. But when chaos goes on the attack, it attacks fixed terrain, where the lawfuls are well aware of the situation and use it quite well. The result becomes a rough balance, sustained by the desire to kill the other side at any cost.

[FoE]

Better would have been to point out that organization is not always useful. An organized army lacks flexibility. It marches right into the obvious trap if the general is a fool [which is sometimes thought to be a job requirement]. In our chaos vs law war, a lawful army ordered to take a chaotic hill will be in serious problems when the hill decides to become a lake while the chaotic defenders are used to dealing with such changes. But when chaos goes on the attack, it attacks fixed terrain, where the lawfuls are well aware of the situation and use it quite well. The result becomes a rough balance, sustained by the desire to kill the other side at any cost.

Think of an ocean and a cliff. An ocean is vast and has incredible power, but its waves simply crash into the cliffside and dissapate.

An army of chaotic demons is going to be like an ocean: incredibly vast and uncontrollable. And that's its weakness. Stronger demons might bully the weaker ones, but there are no officers rallying the troops into lines and formations. They have no strategy other than "CHARGE." More often than not, they start attacking each other. Unless the size of the horde is so great they can simply overwhelm a group of defenders through sheer weight of numbers and strenght, a disciplined foe might be able to throw them back.

A fallible commander might lose a battle, but you're thinking in terms of human commanders. Angels and devils are immortal and have untold millenia of experience of fighting each other and their chaotic counterparts. They might be rigid and structured, but they know their enemy.

[kpenguin]

Which is... really, really, dumb. Demons are chaotic, not idiotic.

[LuisDantas]

If the good guys could defeat a combined army, why wouldn't they preemptive strike against the two divided armies?

That's a logical question, and fair basis to conclude (as many did) that halting the Blood War would indeed be a very major happening.

However, I'd like to point out that it doesn't necessarily make sense outside of "D&D-ish" settings. Many (most?) actual religious/ethical perspectives find the idea of good seeking to destroy evil beings self-defeating and abhorrent.

Mortal armies work like that. Abstract ideals' agents, according to many people, simply don't. Good's role is to teach, nurture, heal and point the way to constructive deeds, not to "defeat those godammed evil beings". From what I gather, confusing those two attitudes is what makes D&D devils Evil in the first place.

[krossbow]

In our chaos vs law war, a lawful army ordered to take a chaotic hill will be in serious problems when the hill decides to become a lake while the chaotic defenders are used to dealing with such changes. But when chaos goes on the attack, it attacks fixed terrain, where the lawfuls are well aware of the situation and use it quite well. The result becomes a rough balance, sustained by the desire to kill the other side at any cost.



Yes, if abjective objects in the universe develop sapience and decide to, out of the blue, just turn into bodies of water at random, then issues will arise. But only if the chaotic forces KNOW that the terrain will do that already. And i'd like to mention again, its VERY VERY rare for terrain to flicker between states of matter, even in battles on demonic planes.

Armies are by their very definition things of law; even a chaotic army is more lawful than the alternative. If you look at history, given equal sizes, the more regimented, disciplined, lawful army ALWAYS wins. Stating that Lawful armies will somehow always have inferior commanders frankly has no real basis except DM fiat in the situation.

Lawful armies will have less trouble getting their troops to undergo suicidal, completely unselfish missions which 100% have a chance of killing them than chaotic armies. But those missions must be done. When you have troops willing to sacrifice themselves because of regimented behavior, your ability to take crucial, strategic points (such as getting troops to charge the beach at normandy, which everyone KNEW would almost certainly get them killed when they ran off that boat) or locations skyrockets.

[HandofShadows]

* starts gibbering insanely *

Ahh, another reader of HP Lovecraft. :smallwink:

[SoC175]

And i'd like to mention again, its VERY VERY rare for terrain to flicker between states of matter, even in battles on demonic planes.
If the blood war does however spill into limbo that's indeed a problem for the lawfull attackers.

[David Argall]

Think of an ocean and a cliff. An ocean is vast and has incredible power, but its waves simply crash into the cliffside and dissapate.
Any given wave. After a few million/billion, the cliff becomes a flat beach. Infinity does things like that.


Unless the size of the horde is so great they can simply overwhelm a group of defenders through sheer weight of numbers and strenght, a disciplined foe might be able to throw them back.
But that is just what is posited here, that one side does have that sheer weight of numbers. And when we talk of "might", we also have "might not", and after enough tries, that becomes "won't".


A fallible commander might lose a battle, but you're thinking in terms of human commanders. Angels and devils are immortal and have untold millenia of experience of fighting each other and their chaotic counterparts. They might be rigid and structured, but they know their enemy.
More precisely, their enemy knows them. And that flexible enemy knows where the inflexible weaknesses are. Nor do we have any evidence that our commanders gain from great amounts of experience. A common theory in the business field is that the CEO should retire after 5 years, or be fired in 6. [A theory that is not popular with CEOs of course, but Ford made Ford motors the biggest auto company in the world. Then he made it #2 and nearly made it bankrupt. It's a quite common pattern.]



But only if the chaotic forces KNOW that the terrain will do that already.
Not at all. They need merely know it is possible to have happen to have a huge advantage when it does. They haul skies, and water wings, to the hill, and are prepared either way.



And i'd like to mention again, its VERY VERY rare for terrain to flicker between states of matter, even in battles on demonic planes.
What gives you that idea? We are talking chaos and change is a constant there. Now presumably the larger the change, the less common, but any change of any size bothers our inflexible lawful army.
And when the very rare changes are very disastrous, we have the same basic result. Our lawful unit sent to hold that hill drowns when it becomes a lake because they try to carry out their orders. Our chaotic unit swims to shore and makes new plans.


If you look at history, given equal sizes, the more regimented, disciplined, lawful army ALWAYS wins.
Quite simply wrong. The norm in all but short wars is for both sides to win battles, meaning the less lawful side did win sometimes.

In particular, you might look at guerrilla war, where the weaker side has the advantage of not being regimented, and lacking any real command structure. Such wars are lost by the guerrillas far more often than people often think, and victory is a long way away at best, but the ragged, underarmed and undisciplined peasants do win at times.



Stating that Lawful armies will somehow always have inferior commanders
No such claim was made. But commanders have been known to be inferior often enough, and we have no reason to think devilish armies will be immune to this weakness.


Lawful armies will have less trouble getting their troops to undergo suicidal, completely unselfish missions which 100% have a chance of killing them than chaotic armies. But those missions must be done.
There is still the problem of identifying such missions, and as already noted, commanders have wasted a whole lot of troops on unnecessary attacks.
On the opposite side, we find that getting volunteers for suicide missions is not that much a problem in a motivated force [and if the force is not motivated, you have way worse problems already]. The gung-ho soldier is looking for that chance to stand out.

[krossbow]

Quite simply wrong. The norm in all but short wars is for both sides to win battles, meaning the less lawful side did win sometimes.

Persia did not conquer the world by not being lawful; nor did rome. Sparta did not hold the Persians back by being a bunch of one man heroes, contrary to popular belief; they won by being better trained, more disciplined, and flat out lawful, by being finely honed and fighting in well ordered ways.
Empires are built when a leader lashes a force into an incredibly regimented one. These military breakthroughs occur when individuals perfect incredibly sophisticated Military techniques. The real world examples of empires prove it.

Its actually the norm when looked at to see the more lawful sides win strategic battles; sure both sides might have some battles in their favors, but its the lawful ones who actually have ones that count.


In particular, you might look at guerrilla war, where the weaker side has the advantage of not being regimented, and lacking any real command structure. Such wars are lost by the guerrillas far more often than people often think, and victory is a long way away at best, but the ragged, underarmed and undisciplined peasants do win at times.

Guerrilla warefare only wins if the other side has some morals. Otherwise, you simply burn the land to the ground and kill them all; like devils would do.
It was Rome's strategy, and it worked very well. Burn the area to the ground and salt the earth; just kill them all, and smash everything. they cannot hide on burnt earth. There are multiple examples in history of guerrilla tactics being soundly defeated by suitably amoral armies.

Guerrilla warefare only works if the enemy isn't genocidal; otherwise its negated. Its one reason why developed nations have such trouble with it, it requires acts scene as monstrous to defeat effectively.

[Surrealistik]

What is a blood war? What is it good for?

Absolutely nothing! Or everything. Except the fiends.

[FoE]

But that is just what is posited here, that one side does have that sheer weight of numbers. And when we talk of "might", we also have "might not", and after enough tries, that becomes "won't".

No, you fail to see the balancing act.

One side possesses superior tactics and overall strength. But their numbers are limited, so they can't simply overrun the other side.

The other side has unlimited strength but lacks any kind of structure, beyond the strong ruling the weak. If they could somehow form an organized army , there would be no stopping them. But they can't, not without inevitably fighting amongst themselves.

You confuse "Chaos" with "flexibility". You try to equate the hordes of the Abyss with small guerilla fighters or some other nonsense. The Chaos of slaads and demons is more like madness.

[Ladorak]

No, you fail to see the balancing act.

One side possesses superior tactics and overall strength. But their numbers are limited, so they can't simply overrun the other side.

The other side has unlimited strength but lacks any kind of structure, beyond the strong ruling the weak. If they could somehow form an organized army , there would be no stopping them. But they can't, not without inevitably fighting amongst themselves.

You confuse "Chaos" with "flexibility". You try to equate the hordes of the Abyss with small guerilla fighters or some other nonsense. The Chaos of slaads and demons is more like madness.

No, I'm with David on this one... It really doesn't make much sense. Infinite always wins over finite on an long enough timeline. No matter how 'chaotic' infinite is, if it even expends as little as 1000th of it's strength toward finite it's still gonna do some damage. Using your example of sea and coastline... You know what all that sand used to be right? It used to be coastline, you know what'll eventually happen to that coastline right? It'll all become sand.

If we're talking infinate vs finite it's only a matter of time.

I mean, let's say for arguements sake that Baator has 20 million troops and that the Abyss has infinate troops. Now let's say the average fatalities a week are Abyss several million and Baator 10, and after that the Abyss kills let's say... one billion of it's own... Just doing the numbers in my head Baator would run out of numbers in less than 10 thousand years

[Lupy]

My understanding of it?

The devils have an infinite supply of troops. So do the demons. However, the demons have significantly more to field at one time, which is why the Devil's superior can win.

On top of that, the Mordrons are often helping the devils, and the Slaad are often helping the Demons, but not always at the same time. That can skew battles. The Archons and Eladrin are fighting a never ending cold war up on high, and only ever fight the Mordrons or Slaad who attack their enemies in the good heavens.

However, I think that the neutral planes, Mechanus and Limbo, are twice as powerful as Baator, the Abyss, Celestia, or the CG one for this reason: They fight Good, Evil and the other end of Law/Chaos. The others just fight Good or Evil and Law or Chaos. Also, since Law and Chaos are more powerful than Good and Evil, Mechanus could take the NE plane, as could Limbo, and either one could take the NG plane too.

So if Mechanus threw everything they had at the Abyss, the Abyss would lose. Badly. But they can't do that because of Limbo.

Now in 4e, I it's much different:

The demons are pure chaos. There is NO law in the abyss. Like 3E Limbo, but absolutely evil too.

The whole rest of the universe is at least a tiny but lawful, so they respect the Hell's keeping the demons penned up, and might even send armies to help if they are needed.

[FoE]

No, I'm with David on this one... It really doesn't make much sense. Infinite always wins over finite on an long enough timeline. No matter how 'chaotic' infinite is, if it even expends as little as 1000th of it's strength toward finite it's still gonna do some damage.

But they can't. You're not getting it. The demons can't marhsall a 1000th of their forces to overwhelm the devils because they either don't care about it or they simply can't, due to their chaotic nature.

I used the ocean example because that's much of what the Abyss is: this chaotic roiling mass without even a hint of structure.

Many demons just can't be ordered to form ranks. They can't be. They turn on the one giving the orders or start tearing apart the demon next to him once they fall into line.

But OK, even if only half of the demons possess enough control to take orders, they could be used to form an incredibly powerful army. Half of infinity, after all, is still infinity. The Demon Princes might be capable of gathering a force capable of winning the Blood War.

But they don't give two s**ts about the Blood War. They're more interested in toppling the other Demon Princes. The civil war that carries out in the Abyss is just as vicious as the Blood War.

In the end, the Blood War is really more about staving off boredom. What reason do devils and demons really have to keep fighting? None, really.

So you have an extremely disorganized fighting force opposed by the incredibly vast forces of devils. Their numbers have a limit, but you still couldn't count the number of devils that exist in the Nine Hells. And they're an extremely regimented, extremely tactical force: an army of devils will probably win out over an equal number of demons. But they can't simply wipe the demons out: they still outnumber the devils vastly.

Plus, the Good armies — the angels and whatnot — play the two sides off each other. They make sure that one side doesn't gain supremacy over the other.

So the stalemate continues.


Using your example of sea and coastline... You know what all that sand used to be right? It used to be coastline, you know what'll eventually happen to that coastline right? It'll all become sand.

Oh sure, over thousands and thousands of years. And one day, the Blood War may end that way, with the demons victorious over the devils. But what's the hurry? After all, fiends don't die of old age. What is time to an immortal?

[ZeroNumerous]

So if Mechanus threw everything they had at the Abyss, the Abyss would lose. Badly. But they can't do that because of Limbo.

This is completely untrue. Mechanus, being exceptionally Lawful to the exclusion of anything else, has a finite number of Modrons and probably a finite number of Inevitables.

The Abyss is, quite literally, infinite. Not simply on an X/Y-axis, but also on a Z-axis. It lacks a coherent number of soldiers and will continue to throw soldiers into the fray. The only thing that keeps the Abyss from completely and utterly crushing Baator or anyone else they chose is because Demons are insane. Not simply Chaotic, but actually insane.

[Lupy]

This is completely untrue. Mechanus, being exceptionally Lawful to the exclusion of anything else, has a finite number of Modrons and probably a finite number of Inevitables.

The Abyss is, quite literally, infinite. Not simply on an X/Y-axis, but also on a Z-axis. It lacks a coherent number of soldiers and will continue to throw soldiers into the fray. The only thing that keeps the Abyss from completely and utterly crushing Baator or anyone else they chose is because Demons are insane. Not simply Chaotic, but actually insane.

You know that Mechanus is Infinite in every way too? And will always have billions of more Mordrons and Inevitables coming in? Mechanus is like Baator^Baator without the pain in you know whats that come with being evil.

They could easily plunge in and kill demons forever without the demons being able to counter attack because they are absolutely insane on every level. In my book, killing something for an eternity counts as destroying it, so Mechanus could destroy the abyss.

[Warlord JK]

Here is the state of troops in both the Abyss and Baator. The Abyss has an infinie amount of layers and demons in it at any one time. There is NO END to the number of demons/layers of the Abysss. In Baator, you have a finite numer of devils and nine layers. But the devils have a continuous supply of new devils coming in so there supply is technically infinite.

Now the Abyss could in theory crush the devils with its infinite army. But it never will becaue of its constant civil war between the princes and there inherently chaoitic inability to work together for more than a short period of time. However, if the devils did not fight the demons in the Blood War, those numbers of demons currently fighting are enough to overwhelm either of the good planes, but maybe not Mechanus or Limbo. I don't really know much about the neutral planes.

[whitelaughter]

... but mathematics? That's the same everywhere. It _has_ to be. Otherwise...

* starts gibbering insanely *
Sorry, variable physics has been an option since at least 2nd ed. Just as some worlds don't follow magical laws, others don't follow scientific laws.


If the good guys could defeat a combined army, why wouldn't they preemptive strike against the two divided armies?
Because their commanders aren't prepared to send their troops to fundamentally pointless deaths. The demons and devils are killing each other, so there is currently no need to get involved.

Think of it as a convoy action, similar to the Battle of the Atlantic during WWII. Just as the fleets were protecting shipping crossing the Atlantic, the celestials want to defend mortals (who are moving across time, from their birth until they reach the pearly gates). Sure, they could hit the Fiendish bases, just as the fleets could have hammered the u-boat pens; but that has repeatedly proven pointless.

Also, the ability to defend the Good planes isn't the same as the ablity to conquer the evil planes. Home turf advanatge counts for a lot: -2 to 3 stats IIRC.

Also, the primary cannonfodder for the good guys would be animated objects; Solars can create a base 60HD of Animated Objects every day. As mindless grunts, these will be fine for defensive work, but less useful for a mobile war across the Infernal planes.

[whitelaughter]

But they can't. You're not getting it.
Hence the war; just as people are arguing here, the fiends would also argue about the inevitablility of their own side's victory, and wonder why the other side doesn't realise this.

[theMycon]

Lots of chatter on "if Demons are infinite, doesn't it mean they're destined to eventually win?"
So... The blood war is DnD's metaphor for the 2nd law of Thermodynamics? Eventually there'll be a final "heat death" of the multiverse as the Abyss marches over everything, and Infinity becomes pure chaos?

[Warren Dew]

Sorry, variable physics has been an option since at least 2nd ed. Just as some worlds don't follow magical laws, others don't follow scientific laws.

There's a difference between physics and mathematics. Mathematics is more of an exercise in pure logic than it is a science.

At most I could see an option as to whether or not the Axiom of Choice is in effect for a given campaign.


So... The blood war is DnD's metaphor for the 2nd law of Thermodynamics? Eventually there'll be a final "heat death" of the multiverse as the Abyss marches over everything, and Infinity becomes pure chaos?

Either the heat death of chaos or the monobloc of law.

[Cúchulainn]

You know that Mechanus is Infinite in every way too? And will always have billions of more Mordrons and Inevitables coming in? Mechanus is like Baator^Baator without the pain in you know whats that come with being evil.

They could easily plunge in and kill demons forever without the demons being able to counter attack because they are absolutely insane on every level. In my book, killing something for an eternity counts as destroying it, so Mechanus could destroy the abyss.

So you're saying Mechanus would nullify the abyss, immoveable object meets unstoppable force? That's technically true, the best kind of true lawful-side, but Mechanus would never do that considering it would be completely tied up with deadlocking the Abyss, leaving it open to attack. Baator, left free, would (as stated many times in this thread) kick the living crap out of the realms and enslave it all. Evil wins. The only way for the Good guys to win would be to attack and destroy Mechanus so that Baator wouldn't be able to. Mechanus loses.

[Talkkno]

Guerrilla warefare only wins if the other side has some morals. Otherwise, you simply burn the land to the ground and kill them all; like devils would do.
It was Rome's strategy, and it worked very well. Burn the area to the ground and salt the earth; just kill them all, and smash everything. they cannot hide on burnt earth. There are multiple examples in history of guerrilla tactics being soundly defeated by suitably amoral armies.

Guerrilla warefare only works if the enemy isn't genocidal; otherwise its negated. Its one reason why developed nations have such trouble with it, it requires acts scene as monstrous to defeat effectively.

Phillpono-amercian war?

[Eldan]

You know that Mechanus is Infinite in every way too? And will always have billions of more Mordrons and Inevitables coming in? Mechanus is like Baator^Baator without the pain in you know whats that come with being evil.

Not quite correct there: while Mechanus is indeed infinite, the realm of the Modrons is, while vast, limited. I don't have my copy with me, but I'm pretty sure that "The Great Modron March" gives definite numbers.

[Lamech]

It's not a good idea in any case. All alignments, and their subplanes, should have infinite numbers. Giving only one side infinite numbers means that side will win, period. Extra skill [short of infinite] will only balance a finite number of enemy, and the infinite numbers would win out.
One side having infinite numbers would not mean it wins no matter what. The percent of the numbers used just has to be 0%. (or really close to zero haven't taken enough prob to know what the term would be.) Lets say for example there are 10 million demons who care about the blood war on each layer. Now lets say the chance of each of those demons who care going to fight is 1 in (the layer they are on)^2. As you can see the demons will have less than 20 million fighters at their disposal. Of course, you are correct if the demons can use a finite fraction (actually doesn't have to be that big), then they will crush any finite force.

Anyway I thought that all these infinite realms was a bad idea. Like the infinite monkeys one demon will end up winning a lot of fights and obtain an absurd level, and be far more poweful than any of the gods. And where are the outsiders coming from anyway? And how do an infinite number of fiends use a finite number of souls as currency? (Although it would explain why one can get so much for a soul.)

[Recaiden]

I read in one of K's tomes that each outsider is made from a soul. Specifically, the souls of forgotten people. Which would mean that there is a finite number of them. This is never explicitly said in D&D, but there are a lot of things that support it, especially in the rules and fluff about the afterlife. That would also mean that each soul is not just a measure of power, but a potential reinforcement. Things about souls getting directly promoted to a more powerful devil or made into a stronger demon really support this idea. So they have infinite space, but don't use all of it, or even any significant fraction.

[Eldan]

Well, given that there are an infinite amount of material planes, there would also be an infinite amount of souls to create fiends and other outsiders from.

[Ladorak]

Well, given that there are an infinite amount of material planes, there would also be an infinite amount of souls to create fiends and other outsiders from.

Let me see if I can remember an old trick someone told me, or it might be from the Hitchhiker's guide, I forget...

The universe is infinite. There are therefore an infinite number of planets. However not all planets are populated, therefore there must be a finite number of populated planets. So to work out the average population of the universe we take X (Unknown finite) and divide by Y (Infinity). This gives us zero, the average population of the universe is 0 per square mile. Therefore the total population of the universe is zero.

To continue the math tricks... I suppose this conflict can be simplified by simple calculation (Something I am loath to do but ah well...)

For Devils to win war: X (Total demon strength) minus Y (Total damage the Devils will ever inflict) equals X (One cannot reduce infinity) Devils cannot win, period

For Demons to win war: X (Total devil strength) minus Y (Hypothetical force of united demon force, infinity) equals zero. Demons will win should the hypothetical situation of a united front, or even a fraction of a united front should ever come to pass

For stalemate: This one's a little tricky... X (Average devil recruitment over a given period) - Y (Average devil destruction over a given period) gives us Z. If Z is positive the stallmate continues forever. If Z is negative then eventually Devil population will be reduced to zero.

I've tried to be objective but I'm still not seeing it... If the Demons lose 20 million Balors to every one Lemure and then destroy another 20 million Balors on their own the net result is still Abyss one, Hell Nil

[kpenguin]

The universe isn't infinite, though.

[Recaiden]

So, the war can be won. If one sides infinite damage inflicted on the other is a greater proportion than the other side's infinite recruitment... they win. So the proportions of recruitment and casualties are important, and relatively balanced.

[Ladorak]

@ penguin: Lol, too true. As was said earlier I think the only sensible way of looking at these things in D&D is to ignore them with all the effort of avoiding a Basalisk's eyes. I mean it's meant to be a game anyone with a basic understanding of math and imagination can play, not a game you need an total understanding of string theory (Yes that's a joke physics nerds:smalltongue: ) to begin to grasp.

Infinty is no fun really


So, the war can be won. If one sides infinite damage inflicted on the other is a greater proportion than the other side's infinite recruitment... they win. So the proportions of recruitment and casualties are important, and relatively balanced.

That's my point, it's not balanced at all. Demons have infinate 'recuitment,' Devils don't.

[David Argall]

Persia did not conquer the world by not being lawful;
Our knowledge of historical conditions that far back is rather shaky to base any case on. However, the Persians were undisciplined barbarians not that long before they were empire builders, and the normal story is that Cyrus the Great died at the hands of barbarians that were never controlled by the Persian Empire.


nor did rome.
And Rome was conquered by unruly barbarian armies.



Its actually the norm when looked at to see the more lawful sides win strategic battles; sure both sides might have some battles in their favors, but its the lawful ones who actually have ones that count.
Now already you are retreating, from ALWAYS win to "win the big ones anyway". But even this is an exaggeration. We can consider China and its long history of being invaded by Northern barbarians. While often the barbarians were more pest than threat, the fact is the more organized Chinese never conquered disorganized Mongolia, which did conquer China a time or two over the millenniums.



Guerrilla warefare only wins if the other side has some morals. Otherwise, you simply burn the land to the ground and kill them all;
This is a valid tactic only if you don't want slaves, taxes, etc, etc. But again, you are missing the point. Guerrilla war has won against far more lawful and organized forces. We can't say that the lawful forces are automatically at an advantage due to being lawful and organized.



The devils have an infinite supply of troops.
This is what they should have. By official text, their supply is finite.



However, I think that the neutral planes, Mechanus and Limbo, are twice as powerful as Baator, the Abyss, Celestia, or the CG one for this reason: They fight Good, Evil and the other end of Law/Chaos. The others just fight Good or Evil and Law or Chaos.
Incorrect, any given plane except pure neutral has 2 friends, 3 it can tolerate, and 3 it hates. Pure Neutral is attacked/loved by all.



Also, since Law and Chaos are more powerful than Good and Evil,
Again, not correct. The four forces are each equal to each of the others.



The demons can't marhsall a 1000th of their forces to overwhelm the devils because they either don't care about it or they simply can't, due to their chaotic nature.
Since we are talking about infinity, a billionth of their forces are still just overwhelmingly strong.


I used the ocean example because that's much of what the Abyss is: this chaotic roiling mass without even a hint of structure.
And as been pointed out, that chaotic mass does wear down the organized coast.


But they don't give two s**ts about the Blood War. They're more interested in toppling the other Demon Princes.
By official text, they do give at least one, and even if we assume they are more interested in attacking each other, we are still talking infinity. They use 99% of their efforts to fight each other and only 1% for the blood war, the blood war forces are infinite and overwhelm the devils.


In the end, the Blood War is really more about staving off boredom. What reason do devils and demons really have to keep fighting? None, really.
They hate. They enjoy the pain of others. Boredom is not a factor.



So... The blood war is DnD's metaphor for the 2nd law of Thermodynamics? Eventually there'll be a final "heat death" of the multiverse as the Abyss marches over everything, and Infinity becomes pure chaos?

No, D&D presumes a balance. The blood war will go on forever without either side able to score more than minor temporary victories here and there. [Minor here can be galaxy wide, but that is still just tiny in the scale of infinity.]



One side having infinite numbers would not mean it wins no matter what. The percent of the numbers used just has to be 0%.
A point. If there are an infinite number of demons on the first floor, a finite number of devil on the top floor could hold out forever [assuming they had some means of reproduction] if the elevator/stairs can only manage a limited number of demons.
However, the official text makes no such claim that there is any such limit on getting demons to the hells. The task is presumably difficult, but the claim is that the devils beat them up when they get there, infinite numbers or not, and that the devils go attack demons just about as often, not stay behind their defenses. So their infinite numbers can reach the hells, and by logic would overwhelm these finite defenses.



where are the outsiders coming from anyway? And how do an infinite number of fiends use a finite number of souls as currency?
The prime explanation is that there is in fact an infinite number of prime material planes producing an infinite number of souls. [No, that is not incompatible with each soul having a finite price. It does mean the price can vary widely depending on local conditions.]

[The Minx]

And Rome was conquered by unruly barbarian armies.

To be fair, Rome eroded her own power through civil wars first, and the barbarians had learned many tricks of warfare from the Romans by the time Rome finally fell. In fact, towards the end, the Empire was basically being protected by barbarian mercenaries, and thus the difference in tactical acumen had diminished to near irrelevance.

[GoC]

MEGAPOST!

Aren't the far realms full of stupidly powerful Cthulhu esque creatures?


Mathematics should work well in the Hells, Mechanus or Celestia, but better don't try to apply them while in the Abysss, Limbo, or Arborea

You can apply mathematics everywhere. It's the construction of a logical sapient. If you have a logical sapient being then he can use mathematics due to the way we define logical. If he couldn't use mathematics then he wouldn't be logical.

To put it another way, it's entirely possible to have 2 apples and 2 apples make 5 apples. But it's not possible to have a logical creature think 2+2=5 due to the way we define "logical thinking".

It does seem possible to have an Aleph_1 number of demons if spacetime is a continuum or if there is no limit on the size of the demons. Just use infinite pairs of demons to represent a mapping from the naturals to the naturals. The demons could be distinct by shifting an atom 1/n nanometers to the right or by having each demon be n feet tall (n being the number of the demon).
Then say that there is one plane of each possible plane of the above format.

Of course this is very unlikely and writers aren't famous for their care and attention to science.
And if the demons are truly chaotic and infinite then at some place in the planes there is a balor with planeshift and googolxnumber of devils in existance other balors under his command that can planeshift and will stay under his command for the following ten thousand millenia. Infinities are fun like that. This is why we must consider "infinite planes" to be merely metaphore.

Anyway, I'm fairly certain there are mathematical infinities that are so large there cannot be that number of demons no matter what the author says but this hasn't come up yet.


That's technically true, the best kind of true lawful-side, but Mechanus would never do that considering it would be completely tied up with deadlocking the Abyss, leaving it open to attack.

You don't understand infinities very well do you?:smalltongue:
In order to talk about infinite forces fighting one another you have to define a few things.


Even the Devils vastly outnumber all the celestials in all the upper planes. So if one of the four major fiends or worse yet all of them could focus on the upper planes, there would be no Seven heavens, there would be the Seven Smoking craters.

The yugoloths plan on ending the war when the time is right and bringing the Demons, the Demodands, the Devils, and the Yugoloths under one banner to crush the Upper planes, The poor angels would be so vastly outnumbered that it wouldn't be funny.

Think how badly outnumbered the good guys are in lord of the rings, times a googolplex. Plus Asmodeus has Hundreds of millions if not Billions of Max hit dice pit fiends and trillions if not quadrillions of max hit dice bearded devils waiting for this conflict. If he Used that army you can kiss a nice after life good bye.
[Citation needed due to ridiculous numbers]

btw: Do they get most of their numbers from the dead mortals or the original devils? If the former then there can't be more than a few billion of them. Most of which will be CR 1.

Why are there so many demons? Where did they all come from?

[Lupy]

Okay, to defend my point of Law and Chaos trumping Good and Evil:

Way back at the beginning, the gods sent their best angels to fight the demons, while they and their servants stayed away from the battle. The Never Ending War eventually turned the Devils to using Evil to try to win, which created evil. Some of the gods saw the Devil's new methods as intolderable and became good, others saw that the devils needed to do their job, and stayed neutral. Eventually, one must presume, some totally insane demons migrated to Limbo and lost their homicidal tendencies, and some good folks became more good than anti demon and become neutral good, and then eventually chaotic good. So there.

Now if Mechanus attacks the Abyss, Baator would attack Arborea, and then Arborea, Elysium, and Limbo would attack it. It would be difficult to tell if Celestia would go after Baator or Elysium. So, Law vs Good? I think that they would go with Good, and then when Limbo and - Well anyway, the whole multiverse has just collapsed.

[Warlord JK]

Why are there so many demons? Where did they all come from?

The Abyss is not just a plane, its a thing of pure chaos. Out of this chaos come the demons. The Abyss just spawns demons continually. Devils however must turn souls to LE which causes them to go to Baator, which is the LE afterlife.

[krossbow]

Our knowledge of historical conditions that far back is rather shaky to base any case on.


do not use the old "But we can't be SURE excuse to backpedal there; all the evidence that we have indicates how they went about things. Just because we didn't see it with our own eyes does not discount the evidence pointing towards it being true.


However, the Persians were undisciplined barbarians not that long before they were empire builders,

correct, and they got jack done in the worldly scheme of things until they were able to unite into a lawful fighting force. Then they became the empire builders people remember.



Now already you are retreating, from ALWAYS win to "win the big ones anyway".


Because thats what war is. Mind if i link something? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html) Check erfworld; you sound like his underlings. You don't win every single battle, you win the big one.

I have no other rebuttal better than what is said in that comic, because your argument is almost verbatim wanda's. You lose some fights against equal opponents; the trick is to win the RIGHT ones.


This is a valid tactic only if you don't want slaves, taxes, etc, etc.


Last time i checked, the blood war was about killing all the demons, not exacting tribute from them. They do that to mortals and other beings, not demons.

So, Yeah.... I don't exactly see the devil's trying to set up tax systems in the abyss.

[see]

Talking about pre-4e D&D planes like the canon makes any actual sense is pointless. They were never designed, they were sketched, accreted, systematized, further accreted, retconned, accreted some more, retconned again, and then had even more stuff piled on. And the whole time they were victims of the alignment system, which never could figure out what the heck the law/chaos axis was actually supposed to be doing.

[Optimystik]

Talking about pre-4e D&D planes like the canon makes any actual sense is pointless. They were never designed, they were sketched, accreted, systematized, further accreted, retconned, accreted some more, retconned again, and then had even more stuff piled on. And the whole time they were victims of the alignment system, which never could figure out what the heck the law/chaos axis was actually supposed to be doing.

Without alignment to argue about, we're left with moaning about game balance and rules contradictions. That can only take a message board so far! :smallwink:

[spectralphoenix]

Talking about pre-4e D&D planes like the canon makes any actual sense is pointless. They were never designed, they were sketched, accreted, systematized, further accreted, retconned, accreted some more, retconned again, and then had even more stuff piled on. And the whole time they were victims of the alignment system, which never could figure out what the heck the law/chaos axis was actually supposed to be doing.

Eh, it's better than the new stuff. Now there is no system, and whenever they want to reference anything from the old system, they just claim it's floating around somewhere in the Elemental Chaos or the Astral Sea. And the new alignment system - it still has a law/chaos component, only now lawful good is "better good" while it's apparently no longer possible to be lawful and evil at the same time (or if it is, you don't get a seperate alignment like you would if you were chaotic.)

[Kai Maera]

Blood War -- the only thing keeping the Upper Planes alive, due to Evil being endless; while it's easy to corrupt, it's extremely hard to purify.

[The Minx]

Talking about pre-4e D&D planes like the canon makes any actual sense is pointless. They were never designed, they were sketched, accreted, systematized, further accreted, retconned, accreted some more, retconned again, and then had even more stuff piled on. And the whole time they were victims of the alignment system, which never could figure out what the heck the law/chaos axis was actually supposed to be doing.

The planes evolved, they were not intelligently designed. *rimshot*

From what I've heard, the 4th edition background isn't ideal either, though I admit I haven't investigated the matter in person.

[zach12376]

I think, but am not sure, that it is the war between Devils and Demons that ends up preserving everyone good and neutral aligned.

I also had this question, so I looked it up in my extensive collection of virtual D&D 3.5 Sourcebooks

[Mr. Pin]

The Blood War is a really, really cool plot device. Dungeon Masters (The ones I've had) like to involve characters in it; there's nothing like smashing up demons and devils who are smashing up each other!

Yeah, read the DMG and they have a pretty good explanation of it in the Cosmology chapter.

[David Argall]

do not use the old "But we can't be SURE excuse to backpedal there; all the evidence that we have indicates how they went about things. Just because we didn't see it with our own eyes does not discount the evidence pointing towards it being true.
No backpeddaling is involved here. We simply lack the data. And what we do have does not suggest any great amount of lawful organization. They were unorganized barbarians compared to the neighbors they conquered, and were deemed distinctly less organized than Sparta centuries later. The idea they were notably more organized at any point seems distinctly dubious.


Because thats what war is.
But that is not what you said.


You lose some fights against equal opponents; the trick is to win the RIGHT ones.
Yet our historical record does not show that the more organized side has won that huge a number of the right ones either. In fact, we have some long lists of them losing.

[Ladorak]

They were unorganized barbarians compared to the neighbors they conquered, and were deemed distinctly less organized than Sparta centuries later. The idea they were notably more organized at any point seems distinctly dubious.

I'm on your side but for the record Greek accounts of the Battle of Plataea (Finally battle of Second Persian invasion of Greece) show the Persians to be far more organised, the Greeks won pretty much by accident. Then again that same disorganisation is what won the Battle of Salamis handily, when they weren't even acting as a concerted force, even stopping to throw insults at each other.

Or there's the highland charge, or the Muslims or Mongols who overrun the Persians (Although they would later organise)

Organised forces don't always win.