How to tell what Sabine is

[[TS] Shadow]

One of the questions I see here in the forums (that doesn't have to do with V or Belkar for once) has to do with what Sabine is. Is she a Demon, or a Devil? I think I came up with the answer. If my knowlege of D&D is correct, then Devils are Lawful Evil, and Demons are Chaotic Evil. So, if we can decipher Sabine's alignment, then we'll be able to find out what she is. I think she leans towards the Chaotic side, but I've always seen her as Neutral Evil. What do you think?

[GSFB]

I think if she is in league with this IFCC, then her alignment is meaningless.

[Assassin89]

There are two spells that could be used to determine Sabine's position on the lawful-chaotic axis. Detect Law and Detect Chaos.
Alternatively, hit Sabine with a silver object and see if DR is bypassed.
It would be strange if Sabine turned out to be a demon with the half-fiend template...

[Optimystik]

I think if she is in league with this IFCC, then her alignment is meaningless.

More importantly, if the protagonists keep packing a weapon of each metal type (like Haley's arrows and Hinjo's katana), THEN her alignment will be meaningless.

[Enlong]

Well, she keeps getting hurt by a combination of Cold Iron and Silver, so she's either Lawful or Chaotic, so that throws NE and only NE out of the question.

But since she reports to a Devil, a Dæmon, and a Demon, she could really be anything.

[Broler]

there is many spells. word of chaos, for instance would only hurt her if she was lawful

[The Extinguisher]

I've always been of the believe that she is a NE sucubuss from the Gray Wastes who has DR/Cold Iron AND Silver

[Raging Gene Ray]

I personally think that the entire purpose of the IFCC is to keep us from finding out what she is...extending the ambiguity running gag yet again. Maybe they'll even compare her to V in the comic.

[Optimystik]

I personally think that the entire purpose of the IFCC is to keep us from finding out what she is...extending the ambiguity running gag yet again. Maybe they'll even compare her to V in the comic.

What gag? She has batwings and she's a slut. I fail to see why anyone would think she's an Erinyes besides her hanging out with an LE boyfriend.

[Gopher]

For what it's worth, in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) Nale implies that he speaks Infernal (second page, panel 9). That would suggest that Sabine's a devil, since she would be the obvious reason for his mastery of a fiendish language.

Of course, the statement was part of an elaborate lie, so there's really no reason to believe it's true, but I think it might be significant that he chose that one over any of the alternatives.

[Sabin Marcus]

Honestly, I'm not sure what the confusion is, at least here on the forums (the OotS characters can be as clueless about demon and devil types as the story calls for). Sabine calls herself an 'incarnation of illicit sex' (or something to that effect), which well enough rules out Erinyes, and the bat wings are characteristic of Succubi (rather than raven-winged Pleasure Devils). Making Sabine a non-succubus wouldn't be the first time Rich side-stepped what's in the printed materials, but assuming he's 'playing by the rules' this time, Sabine is clearly a Succubus.

[Kish]

Nale made a point of the scissors she would use to drop the anvil on Elan being "not silver or cold iron." That indicates her boyfriend doesn't know which she's vulnerable to (or knows that she's vulnerable to both), which rules out it being a running joke about Haley's personal lack of knowledge.

[Sabin Marcus]

Nale made a point of the scissors she would use to drop the anvil on Elan being "not silver or cold iron." That indicates her boyfriend doesn't know which she's vulnerable to (or knows that she's vulnerable to both), which rules out it being a running joke about Haley's personal lack of knowledge.

Thought it does put it firmly in the realm of 'nobody really knows what Sabine is.'

It's a Knowledge (the Planes) check to ID outsiders, right? I can see that being a low priority for most (perhaps all) of the characters in the strip so far.

[Sholos]

Also, while she could be using Minor Image to change her form, Change Shape seems more likely.

[DMBlackhart]

I've always been of the believe that she is a NE sucubuss from the Gray Wastes who has DR/Cold Iron AND Silver

Yes but haily hurt her with one of her two arrows back in a early strip ( somewhere in the 100s or 150s ) so she cant have both.

[fractal]

Well, Nale is (or at least claims to be) Lawful Evil. Sabine and Nale get along fairly well, most of the time, so we might think they're reasonably close in alignment (maybe ruling out Chaotic Evil).

On the other hand, we've now learned that her masters are in favor of "cooperation" between all three evil alignments. So who knows.

[magic9mushroom]

Her abilities and outlook match those of a Succubus, but she's rather a little too obeisant to be a normal Demon. Since she reports directly to the IFCC it's likely she's homebrewed.

[Ozymandias9]

I personally think that the entire purpose of the IFCC is to keep us from finding out what she is...extending the ambiguity running gag yet again. Maybe they'll even compare her to V in the comic.

I always read the gag more along the lines of them not knowing whether she was a devil or demon, not whether she was a succubus. More of a comment of the many players and DMs who have a hard time remembering which ones fall into which category. I know when I throw a fiend in game without giving players access to the MM, there's usually a discussion on demon vs. devil.

If Sabine is a succubus (and she did say she's "literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex"), then she would be CE under standard rules. Something like the IFCC would easily be used to explain away seemingly lawful elements of her behavior.

[KurenaiYami]

Yes but haily hurt her with one of her two arrows back in a early strip ( somewhere in the 100s or 150s ) so she cant have both.

I think he meant Silver OR Cold Iron, so either one would cause the effect. Seeing as 3.5 rules prohibit a weapon being made of both at the same time, the other interpretation would be impossible.

[Querzis]

Well thats the problem, Sabine always acted NE. She never did anything especially Lawfull or Chaotic. Of course, that would means shes a daemon (yeah I know yugoloth but if Rich use daemon then we should start using it as well) but personnaly, I'm pretty damn sure shes a half-fiend half-human. Therefore, it doesnt matter if her fiend part is from a devil, a daemon or a demon because her human part could make her become of any alignement. I think that because Sabine obviously feel at ease among mortals on the material plane, is actually in love with a mortal (which isnt supposed to happen regardless of if you're a devil or a demon) and it would explain her weird abilities that dont exactly match any real demons or devils in D&D.

[Kish]

I always read the gag more along the lines of them not knowing whether she was a devil or demon, not whether she was a succubus. More of a comment of the many players and DMs who have a hard time remembering which ones fall into which category. I know when I throw a fiend in game without giving players access to the MM, there's usually a discussion on demon vs. devil.

If Sabine is a succubus (and she did say she's "literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex"), then she would be CE under standard rules. Something like the IFCC would easily be used to explain away seemingly lawful elements of her behavior.
Posing the question: Why doesn't Nale know she's vulnerable to cold iron and silver is meaningless to her? Again, it can't be a joke about what Haley doesn't know, because the lack of knowledge (if that's what it is) is not limited to Haley.

[MReav]

I've always been of the believe that she is a NE sucubuss from the Gray Wastes who has DR/Cold Iron AND Silver

Except Daemons never have material weaknesses, save for some homebrewed stats that make them vulnerable to Mithral.

[Sholos]

Also, don't forget the fact that she can level drain people. Definitely makes her not an Erinyes, and makes it that more likely that she is indeed a succubus.

[Teron]

My take, from another thread that touched on the subject:


Technically, she has at least a couple of powers that normal succubi don't, namely the ability to drain energy without a kiss or "act of passion" and the ability to plane shift. She also hasn't used any of a succubus's actual spell-like abilities, even when teleportation, for instance, would have been rather useful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html). Personally, I think she's just a succubus "edited down" to a simpler, more story-friendly version of the creature's core concept, but I suppose there's room to argue otherwise.

[Chronos]

Honestly, I'm not sure what the confusion is, at least here on the forums (the OotS characters can be as clueless about demon and devil types as the story calls for). Sabine calls herself an 'incarnation of illicit sex' (or something to that effect), which well enough rules out Erinyes,Someone mentions this in every single thread about Sabine. Yes, a succubus is an evil incarnation of illicit sex, but then, in D&D, so is an erinyes. The description for the erinyes says that "like succubi, they exist to tempt mortals into acts of depravity", they manifest as hot naked women, and their powers are bondage-themed.

[Surprise!]

Sabine could also be a Daemon, which is being referenced constantly by the IFCC. My guessing would be a Neutral Evil sub race of fiend.

[enarch3t]

Which ever groups has weakness to both cold iron and silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) and has hot women who are incarnations of illicit sex to tempt mortals.

I think there is some other comic, if I find it I'll post it, where she says she's a demon or maybe she just says she's a fiend. I can't remember.

[Porthos]

Which ever groups has weakness to both cold iron and silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)

As has been said more than once, all that strip shows is that not even Nale knows whether Cold Iron or Silver hurts Sabine. :smallsmile:

Nale is just playing it safe in his planning.

[Morgan Wick]

Nale made a point of the scissors she would use to drop the anvil on Elan being "not silver or cold iron." That indicates her boyfriend doesn't know which she's vulnerable to (or knows that she's vulnerable to both), which rules out it being a running joke about Haley's personal lack of knowledge.

You know how I read that joke? I read it as Nale knowing the OOTS don't know which Sabine is, and not wanting to give it away. I don't think it tells us anything.

[Zevox]

Someone mentions this in every single thread about Sabine. Yes, a succubus is an evil incarnation of illicit sex, but then, in D&D, so is an erinyes. The description for the erinyes says that "like succubi, they exist to tempt mortals into acts of depravity", they manifest as hot naked women, and their powers are bondage-themed.
*gets out his MM*

Er, no. It does not say that. They're described as "resembling very comely men and women" and appearing similar to angels, because the first Erinyes were in fact fallen angels. They're said to serve as scouts, servants, and concubines to other devils, and prefer ranged combat. There's nothing about them acting as temptresses, appearing as nude humans, or anything of the sort.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

I don't see why reporting to the IFCC would make Sabine any less likely to be chaotic. Nothing says "sticking it to the status quo" like being one of the few demons in the interfiend buddy club.

Besides, it gives her the chance to get up close and personal with high-charisma devils - and maybe an erinyes or two, judging by her preferences. She seems to like the Lawful types - Nale, Roy and Miko.

[Moglorosh]

As has been said more than once, all that strip shows is that not even Nale knows whether Cold Iron or Silver hurts Sabine. :smallsmile:

Nale is just playing it safe in his planning.There is nothing in the comics thus far ruling out the possibility that she could be weak to both.

[Ozymandias9]

Posing the question: Why doesn't Nale know she's vulnerable to cold iron and silver is meaningless to her? Again, it can't be a joke about what Haley doesn't know, because the lack of knowledge (if that's what it is) is not limited to Haley.

The way I read it, it's not a joke about Haley's lack of knowledge, but one about how many tabletop players have trouble keeping the various kinds of fiends and their vulnerabilities straight: i.e., not whether Haley has knowledge (the planes) but whether someone playing D&D in that situation would know the relevant information off-hand in combat. The question isn't "Is or isn't she a succubus?", but "Is succubus is a demon or a devil?" and "Is cold iron demon or is that silver?". Those questions invariably come up when you put fiends in games unless one of the players is a fairly old hand. Its one of the places where plot is subjected to minor subject matter humor.

[Mr. Pin]

She's clearly a succubus, for reasons already stated. Ipso facto, demon, ipso facto, always Chaotic Evil.

The joke wasn't that Hailey didn't know what she was; it was that Hailey had forgotten what metal affected demons and devils. Just for the record, cold iron is what you want to use against demons.

[Kish]

The way I read it, it's not a joke about Haley's lack of knowledge, but one about how many tabletop players have trouble keeping the various kinds of fiends and their vulnerabilities straight: i.e., not whether Haley has knowledge (the planes) but whether someone playing D&D in that situation would know the relevant information off-hand in combat. The question isn't "Is or isn't she a succubus?", but "Is succubus is a demon or a devil?" and "Is cold iron demon or is that silver?". Those questions invariably come up when you put fiends in games unless one of the players is a fairly old hand. Its one of the places where plot is subjected to minor subject matter humor.
None of which explains why Nale wouldn't know, either. And Mr. Pin seems to be simply ignoring that part (and even ignoring that Haley spells out "cold iron against demons, silver against devils," so she certainly hadn't forgotten that). I doubt he planned for the Order to be in a position to analyze the scissors, but that explanation is infinitely preferable to the "I'm going to act as though Nale never indicated any ambiguity" ones...

[FujinAkari]

She's clearly a succubus, for reasons already stated. Ipso facto, demon, ipso facto, always Chaotic Evil.

Why are we discussing this? Rich explicitly says she's a succubus-type in War & XP's...

Although, Succubi ARE NOT always chaotic evil. See the Succubus Paladin.

[Porthos]

Why are we discussing this? Rich explicitly says she's a succubus-type in War & XP's...

Having just re-read the passage in question, it seems obvious to me that he is calling Sabine a "succubus-type" in regards to the trope of succubi, not actually saying she is a succubus.

Rich isn't going to make it that easy for us, is he? :smallwink:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Although he then does go on to mention "demons" in the very next part of the sentence.... :smallbiggrin:

[Occasional Sage]

An idea for somebody other than me:


Go back to when Sabine was Gated back to the Prime, and check the eye color of the Gate-casting friend;
compare that eye color to the IFCC folks' business cards;
determine Sabine's likely alignment using the clever realization (Optimystik's?) correlating the first letters of the names to alignments.

[Tryble]

She's probably some weird half-succubus, half-erinyes creature.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Her abilities and outlook match those of a Succubus, but she's rather a little too obeisant to be a normal Demon. Since she reports directly to the IFCC it's likely she's homebrewed.

Reporting to the IFCC doesn't make her Lawful, since she is more of a free-lancer working independently. Free-lancers still have to check in with the home office every now and then, but they don't have to sit through the weekly meeting and all of the sub-meetings that follow.

Qarr, OTOH, is clearly a cubicle dweller. :smallbiggrin:

I've always thought of her as either a homebrewed or Advanced succubi. And like Elan's mom made him learn how to ride a horse, maybe Sabine's mom had her take karate lessons when she was a little loli demon! :smallbiggrin:

[magic9mushroom]

Reporting to the IFCC doesn't make her Lawful, since she is more of a free-lancer working independently. Free-lancers still have to check in with the home office every now and then, but they don't have to sit through the weekly meeting and all of the sub-meetings that follow.

Qarr, OTOH, is clearly a cubicle dweller. :smallbiggrin:

I've always thought of her as either a homebrewed or Advanced succubi. And like Elan's mom made him learn how to ride a horse, maybe Sabine's mom had her take karate lessons when she was a little loli demon! :smallbiggrin:

I never said that reporting to the IFCC makes her Lawful. I said that it makes her likely homebrewed, since they themselves are homebrewed.

[Snake-Aes]

It's not much about figuring out whether sabine is demon or devil, is it? It has little plot relevance other than Haley's puns, which can just as easily be explained as "WE know she's clearly demon, Haley doesn't".

[Kish]

It's not much about figuring out whether sabine is demon or devil, is it? It has little plot relevance other than Haley's puns, which can just as easily be explained as "WE know she's clearly demon, Haley doesn't".
Argh. Stop ignoring Nale.

[Snake-Aes]

Argh. Stop ignoring Nale.

<sticks out tongue>"Deny"

[Optimystik]

So what if Nale doesn't know? Everything we've seen clearly points to succubus.

She doesn't have any erinyes traits besides being an evil female outsider. No feathered wings, no discipline, no love of battle. She drains energy, loves sex, has batwings, and is cowardly except when having a clear advantage.

Her allegiance with the IFCC can easily be explained by her tendency to enjoy seducing/romancing lawful types - she hits on Roy, Miko and Nale but has no desire whatsoever for the chaotic Elan and Haley, both of whom are quite attractive. She's an aisle-crosser, but I say she's CE.


An idea for somebody other than me:


Go back to when Sabine was Gated back to the Prime, and check the eye color of the Gate-casting friend;
compare that eye color to the IFCC folks' business cards;
determine Sabine's likely alignment using the clever realization (Optimystik's?) correlating the first letters of the names to alignments.


Randy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) has yellow eyes; four of them. Unfortunately, since he likely also works for the IFCC, he could be anything.

[Occasional Sage]

Randy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html) has yellow eyes; four of them. Unfortunately, since he likely also works for the IFCC, he could be anything.


Why would you think that he works for the IFCC? I assumed he's just a friend or acquaintance of Sabine's, not a coworker. Either is possible, but I don't see anything to tip the balance.

[chionophile]

The joke wasn't that Hailey didn't know what she was; it was that Hailey had forgotten what metal affected demons and devils. Just for the record, cold iron is what you want to use against demons.

If you're going to make this kind of statement, you should really check your facts, first. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html)

[Mr. Pin]

My bad. I revise my former statement: Haley Starshine SHOULD have known what Sabine was. Still, only a minor "Demon or Devil?" moment; we all get them sometimes. I maintain that Haley knew Sabine was a succubus. What other skanky batwinged level-draining Demon/Devil chicks do you know?

and I'm still proud of myself for remembering what succubi are and what they're vulnerable to.

[Optimystik]

Why would you think that he works for the IFCC? I assumed he's just a friend or acquaintance of Sabine's, not a coworker. Either is possible, but I don't see anything to tip the balance.

She went back to deliver her report to the IFCC, so we can assume that's where she was coming from. Since he used his plane shift power to send her back ahead of schedule, he must have been at or near the location that she delivered her report; presumably, IFCC headquarters.

Their banter about rush hour traffic is also very reminiscent of gabby office coworkers.

[[TS] Shadow]

She went back to deliver her report to the IFCC, so we can assume that's where she was coming from. Since he used his plane shift power to send her back ahead of schedule, he must have been at or near the location that she delivered her report; presumably, IFCC headquarters.

Their banter about rush hour traffic is also very reminiscent of gabby office coworkers.

Good points, but there still is no proof either way.

[Optimystik]

Shadow;5821759']Good points, but there still is no proof either way.

Now there's a constructive post. :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

She went back to deliver her report to the IFCC, so we can assume that's where she was coming from. Since he used his plane shift power to send her back ahead of schedule, he must have been at or near the location that she delivered her report; presumably, IFCC headquarters.

Their banter about rush hour traffic is also very reminiscent of gabby office coworkers.
We can say this makes it more likely than not, but ignoring the detail that she's a murderous fiend, Sabine is very friendly, and to just about anyone or thing. So Randy may simply owe her for a night or two in the hay a century or two back, or in the future, and she more or less ran into him by accident. [Quite possibly she was fairly sure there would be some fiend at location X who would owe her, but which one is an accident.]

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I never said that reporting to the IFCC makes her Lawful. I said that it makes her likely homebrewed, since they themselves are homebrewed.

No, you didn't. But so many people have said, "She has to report to her supervisors! That makes her Lawful, and thus a Devil!" I wanted to make it clear that free-lancers have to make reports and check in as well.

(Free-lance is fun, until you have a spouse and kids who depend on you, then your stress levels go up.)

What's the difference between homebrewed and Advanced? Other than a few minor modifications tweaks to transform a generic succubus into Sabine a lot easier than a homebrewed half-demon/half-devil/half-daemon hybrid with feats from the following books: (Insert long list of book, including feats from some obscure web site).