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ocato
2009-02-19, 01:33 AM
So, I've been thinking of rolling a half-elf defender-style paladin for an upcoming game. Dilettante is a really interesting racial power and I am eager to give it a whirl. However, as I'm sure a few others have noticed, it can be pretty difficult to choose a power. So, I was wondering if anyone had any good advice or suggestions. Here are some of my thoughts with what class they came from and the pros/cons as far as I can tell. Keep in mind that my 4e experience is almost nil.

Cleric
Priest's Shield: Strength is one of my big stats and a +1 AC bonus to me and a nearby ally isn't bad at all, but how often is an ally going to be adjacent to me instead of flanking with me/standing back for ranged attacks? Also, +1 for an encounter power is kinda meh.
Righteous Brand: Strength again, and a big bonus to the attack of one of my striker party members (aka, a good time to break out a daily or encounter power). A reasonable offensive version of Shielding Smite

Fighter
Tide of Iron: A good way to shape the battlefield obviously, but probably not as useful as an encounter power. This is the kind of thing that gives fighters an advantage, probably doesn't translate well to paladins via dilettante.

Rogue
Riposte Strike: The dexterity attack is probably a sure miss, but the riposte interrupt may find itself as an incredibly valuable save when things get rough. Probably another power that loses a great deal when bumped down to encounter

Warlock
Eyebite: Charisma attacks have plenty of room in a half elf paladin rotation, and being invisible probably vastly improves the chances of my enemy not attacking me (therefore taking mark damage). However, hiding from the enemy is sort of counter-productive for a defender.
Hellish Rebuke: Constitution is going to be a decent stat, hopefully. Also a nice little damned if you do situation. If you don't attack me, enjoy some charisma based damage. If you do attack me (and hit), enjoy some constitution based damage. The flaw? Ideally I won't be an easy hit. So this would be pretty much 1d6+con x2 damage during one of the several rounds that a significantly stronger enemy was beating me into a pulp. Granted, I'm sure I'll get kicked around a fair amount, that's what the HP/surges are for.

Warlord
Furious Smash: More or less the same as Radiant Brand, except Charisma (probably a higher stat) and applies to attack and damage. More of that Adjacent stuff, but applies to an ally adjacent to me or to guy I hit, meaning it's still good for when a striker is flanking my target and wants to burn an encounter or daily power without fear of failure.
Viper's Strike: Where you shiftin? Not without a dagger in your kidney. Probably falls under the useless as an encounter power category.

Granted, this is all based on speculation. Any thoughts?

Tengu_temp
2009-02-19, 02:52 AM
Are you a charisma-based paladin, or a strength-based paladin? Since you said Defending I assume a charisma-based one, which means your best bets are Eldritch Blast (always good to have a ranged attack), Eyebite (less damage and range than EB but a very useful additional effect) or Furious Smash (it's strength-based but targets Fortitude instead of AC, so if your strength is 4 or less than your charisma it shouldn't miss that often, and the charisma-based buff is very nice).

THAC0
2009-02-19, 02:53 AM
So, I've been thinking of rolling a half-elf defender-style paladin for an upcoming game. Dilettante is a really interesting racial power and I am eager to give it a whirl. However, as I'm sure a few others have noticed, it can be pretty difficult to choose a power. So, I was wondering if anyone had any good advice or suggestions. Here are some of my thoughts with what class they came from and the pros/cons as far as I can tell. Keep in mind that my 4e experience is almost nil.

Cleric
Priest's Shield: Strength is one of my big stats and a +1 AC bonus to me and a nearby ally isn't bad at all, but how often is an ally going to be adjacent to me instead of flanking with me/standing back for ranged attacks? Also, +1 for an encounter power is kinda meh.

How often an ally is going to be adjacent to you depends on your party composition. If you're the only defender, not likely, unless there happens to be a str-cleric in the party or warlord. Most melee strikers will be looking for CA, and adjacent doesn't provide CA. If there are other defenders or the other mentioned classes, then you should be able to get someone adjacent to you once per encounter. If that someone happens to be a melee type with a below average armor class, this could be useful.


Righteous Brand: Strength again, and a big bonus to the attack of one of my striker party members (aka, a good time to break out a daily or encounter power). A reasonable offensive version of Shielding Smite

This one is solid.


Fighter
Tide of Iron: A good way to shape the battlefield obviously, but probably not as useful as an encounter power. This is the kind of thing that gives fighters an advantage, probably doesn't translate well to paladins via dilettante.

Another solid choice. Remember a few things: forced movement breaks grabs - and if you are grabbed, this could be a great help to you, while still dealing damage to the enemy. Additionally, while perhaps not useful immediately, and depending on your party composition, there are a few higher level powers out there that will deal extra damage if the target moves for ANY REASON. So that could be some nice teamwork, if your party composition is right.

Can I ask why you aren't including cleave? If nothing else, it's a good minion-smiting power, plus a good way to deal damage to a target who might be difficult to hit.


Rogue
Riposte Strike: The dexterity attack is probably a sure miss, but the riposte interrupt may find itself as an incredibly valuable save when things get rough. Probably another power that loses a great deal when bumped down to encounter

I'd pass. As you say, Dex attack will be a miss, and that will grow worse as the game progresses. You cannot get the riposte effect unless you hit, so it's absolutely useless to you. Additionally, it requires a light blade, and you probably aren't wielding one as a paladin.


Warlock
Eyebite: Charisma attacks have plenty of room in a half elf paladin rotation, and being invisible probably vastly improves the chances of my enemy not attacking me (therefore taking mark damage). However, hiding from the enemy is sort of counter-productive for a defender.

I've seen this used by a paladin to great effect, for the mark damage reason. If nothing else, it can grant you combat advantage. However, consider that it is an implement-based power (and not a holy symbol at that!). So to keep your to-hit chance up, that's going to be a THIRD attack method. Even two are hard to keep current. I'd pass, unless you're focused on the "cowardin" approach, which you don't seem to be.



Hellish Rebuke: Constitution is going to be a decent stat, hopefully. Also a nice little damned if you do situation. If you don't attack me, enjoy some charisma based damage. If you do attack me (and hit), enjoy some constitution based damage. The flaw? Ideally I won't be an easy hit. So this would be pretty much 1d6+con x2 damage during one of the several rounds that a significantly stronger enemy was beating me into a pulp. Granted, I'm sure I'll get kicked around a fair amount, that's what the HP/surges are for.

Same problem as for eyebite, with implements.


Warlord
Furious Smash: More or less the same as Radiant Brand, except Charisma (probably a higher stat) and applies to attack and damage. More of that Adjacent stuff, but applies to an ally adjacent to me or to guy I hit, meaning it's still good for when a striker is flanking my target and wants to burn an encounter or daily power without fear of failure.

Solid.



Viper's Strike: Where you shiftin? Not without a dagger in your kidney. Probably falls under the useless as an encounter power category.

Granted, this is all based on speculation. Any thoughts?

This is a possibility. It's not immediately useless, as some powers are. I could think of several situations where someone might want to shift. It would be up to you to and your party to force these situations.

1of3
2009-02-19, 04:43 AM
As usual, it all depends on the party composition, as well.

If you have a Melee Ranger or Rogue in the party, Commander`s Strike as an Encounter Power might be interesting, too. There probabably will be a round, when your ally fails to apply their striker bonus damage.

Otherwise I`d take Eye Bite. Really funny, when the Challenged enemy can`t see you.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-19, 04:48 AM
Priest's Shield: Strength is one of my big stats and a +1 AC bonus to me and a nearby ally isn't bad at all,
+1 to AC for one turn isn't a big deal if you do the math on it. I'd pass on this one even if I played a cleric.



Righteous Brand: Strength again, and a big bonus to the attack of one of my striker party members
This one, on the other hand, is excellent. Giving a teammate +4 to hit for a round is very good.



Tide of Iron: A good way to shape the battlefield obviously, but probably not as useful as an encounter power.
You don't need this; just write down "Bull Rush" under your at-will powers, and use that whenever something needs pushing.



Riposte Strike: The dexterity attack is probably a sure miss,
While I love this trick, it doesn't work unless your dexterity is good. Pass.



Eyebite: However, hiding from the enemy is sort of counter-productive for a defender.
Your goal is to draw fire, not hide from it. Pass.



Hellish Rebuke: Constitution is going to be a decent stat, hopefully. Also a nice little damned if you do situation.
Again, your goal is to draw fire, not discourage people from hitting you.



Furious Smash: More or less the same as Radiant Brand, except Charisma (probably a higher stat) and applies to attack and damage.
Nice, but Righteous Brand is better. This is because FS applies only to one attack (as opposed to one turn - can you say "action point"?) and doesn't give you your weapon damage.



Viper's Strike: Where you shiftin? Not without a dagger in your kidney.
Situationally nice. This one doesn't hurt being once per encounter, because it won't come up as often. It adds to stickiness, which is good.


Overall, I'd take Righteous Brand or Viper's Strike. The former is more powerful, the latter more fun.

Izmir Stinger
2009-02-19, 11:10 AM
Are you allowed to use things form Martial Power? If you are a Strengthadin consider:

Fighter
The feel of your weapon crunching against the enemy puts your
heart back in the fight.
At-Will ✦ Invigorating, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.

Invigorating Keyword means:

If you are trained in the Endurance skill, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier when you hit with a power that has this keyword. No invigorating power grants temporary hit points more than once per turn, even if you hit more than once with the power or use more than one power with the invigorating keyword in a round.

A lot of your gripes about the powers you looked at are "when will this be useful?" Nothing really special about this power but it does have pretty universal applicability as long as you don't use it at the very end of a fight.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-19, 11:33 AM
The feel of your weapon crunching against the enemy puts your
heart back in the fight.
I disagree. This nets you two or three temp hit points once per encounter, which really isn't worth it.

NecroRebel
2009-02-19, 11:55 AM
Your goal is to draw fire, not hide from it. Pass.

Eyebite might be good if you could consistently afford the Warlock implement to make good use of it, as you're essentially certain to get your Divine Challenge damage in that case. In the "Paladins aren't defenders" thread, it was noticed that triggering Divine Challenge hurts enemies a lot, even to the point of making the Paladin outdamage a Striker. I wouldn't take it, but it isn't entirely useless.

Other than that, I agree with Kurald's analyses on all counts. From the Player's Handbook, Righteous Brand or Viper Strike are the best choices.

If you have access to Martial Power, I'd suggest looking into:
-Footwork Lure (fighter power, Str-based, if hit shift 1 and slide target into vacated space)
-Brash Assault (warlord power, Str-based, regardless of hit enemy gets free attack vs. you with CA and ally gets free attack vs. the enemy with CA; Rogues will love it)
Opening Shove (warlord power, Str weapon vs. Reflex - good stuff there, no damage on hit but push 1 and grants ally a shift or melee basic attack vs. target)



I'd still say that Righteous Brand is most powerful for a Strengthadin, though.

RTGoodman
2009-02-19, 12:28 PM
If your Charisma's good, you could consider using a Sorcerer power or something else from PHB2 if you can get the subscription or info. The only problem, I think would be with implements.

Acid orb is Cha vs. Ref from 10 squares for 1d10 + Cha, which is decent, and burning spray is a 1d8 + Cha close burst 3. Chaos bolt is the same again, almost, in that it's vs. Will and does psychic damage, but that's it. Now, dragonfrost and storm walk are both a little better. Dragonfrost is a ranged attack vs. Fort at ranged 10, and it damages and PUSHES the target, which you could use pretty well as a defender to help out the squishy party member who suddenly got caught in melee. Storm walk is vs. Fort, also, and does equivalent damage (though I think thunder is harder to resist than cold), and lets you shift a square before or after the attack. That could be helpful, too.

Blackfang108
2009-02-19, 01:48 PM
However, consider that it is an implement-based power (and not a holy symbol at that!).

This doesn't matter.

Reason: Accordign to the Official D&D FAQ, Any implement powers may be used with any implement granted to you by your main class.

Unless they took the Holy Symbol away from Pallys, you'll be fine.

Number 22. (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396&p_created=1212604387&p_sid=ccJSGTqj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0yNywyNyZwX3Byb2RzPTUxNCw1MzMmcF9jYXRzPSZ wX3B2PTIuNTMzJnBfY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vyc y5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1) They recently added "Other class powers" in errata, looking for that now.

THAC0
2009-02-19, 02:06 PM
This doesn't matter.

Reason: Accordign to the Official D&D FAQ, Any implement powers may be used with any implement granted to you by your main class.

Unless they took the Holy Symbol away from Pallys, you'll be fine.

Number 22. (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396&p_created=1212604387&p_sid=ccJSGTqj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0yNywyNyZwX3Byb2RzPTUxNCw1MzMmcF9jYXRzPSZ wX3B2PTIuNTMzJnBfY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vyc y5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1) They recently added "Other class powers" in errata, looking for that now.


Number 22 refers specifically to Paragon and Epic tier, not heroic.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-19, 02:22 PM
Number 22 refers specifically to Paragon and Epic tier, not heroic.

This is important, due to how the Implement sections are described.
For Example:

Clerics make use of holy symbols to help channel and direct their divine powers. A cleric wearing or holding a magic holy symbol can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of cleric powers, as well as cleric paragon path powers, that have the implement keyword. Without a holy symbol, a cleric can still use these powers, but he or she doesn’t gain the bonus provided by the magic implement.

Emphasis mine. Compare that to the MC Cleric Feat:

In addition, you can use a holy symbol as an implement when using a cleric power or a cleric paragon path power.

Read in context, FAQ 22 is clearer:

If a paragon path power or epic destiny power has the Implement keyword, you can use any implement that you are allowed to use from your class, as well as any implement you are allowed to use from another feature (such as a multiclass feat).

The FAQ seems to broaden the scope for PP Implement use and clarifies it for ED; nothing is mentioned about Heroic level powers.

So yeah, if you have the strength, Righteous Brand or Furious Smash. Personally, I prefer Furious Smash since it boosts your ally's attack and damage roll; if you're a CHA-adin this can be huge.

ocato
2009-02-19, 02:54 PM
We're sticking to the basic three 4e books, I'm told. I am also not at all aware of what my team mates will be playing, which kind of sucks. The DM assured me/us that he would mediate so that no one showed up with their evil twin standing next to them, so I should be the only defender (might be a 2h offensive fighter in the mix though). However, I don't know exactly who is playing or what, since it's a new group.

I didn't include cleave because A) Lack of Experience means it didn't occur to me and B) I think my friend is going to be an Eladrin Spear Fighter, using all sorts of cleaves, multi-target attacks, etc.

I am still having a bit of trouble with Righteous Brand vs Furious Smash, so let me crunch some 'numbers' (subject to being pulled out of my bum)

Righteous Brand is 1|W|+Str (let's assume a 16 for Strength and a longsword)
So I deal 1d8+3 and have an attack (at L1) of 3 (wep) +3 (str) =6 vs AC.
I grant one ally +3 to 2 attacks (assuming the use of an action point).

Furious Smash is Str (+3) vs fortitude, so +6 vs fortitude, and deals my strength (+3) damage. It then grants my Charisma (Half-elf defender, let's assume an 18) to one ally's next attack and damage.

Let's assume that big honkin trouble makers (the kind that this sort of focus would necessitate) probably have comparable AC and Fort defenses. This logic is flawed, obviously, but we'd go crazy trying to incorporate vs Fort and vs AC as being more/less likely to hit based on different enemies, the likelihood of my DM using one type of enemy versus another, etc.

So...the main trade off here is the assumption of using an action point. Without the AP, Righteous Brand does 1d8 more damage and Furious Smash gives +1 more to the attack roll and +4 to the damage. So, assuming my ally hits, we can say that my 1d8 damage and his +4 damage are close enough on average to cancel each other out. Furious Smash then only offers an advantage of +1 over Righteous Brand (and, of course, the assumption that my charisma will rise over time faster than my strength).

Aha! That's worth noting. At L11, if I now have 22 Charisma and 16 strength (I have no idea how itemization/wealth scales, so this may be absurd) then it's 2|W|+3 vs 6 damage. I think that the 2|W| scaling should allow Righteous Brand to more or less keep up despite not being tied to an ability score that will be top priority. However, it also becomes +6 to one attack/one damage vs +3 to a potential of 2 attacks (or more if a ranger). It seems that over time, if I don't push strength with similar zeal to my charisma (which is possible, given that they are both good paladin stats) then Righteous Brand starts to fall back a little. However, my knowledge of the 2nd and 3rd tiers is even more pathetic than my knowledge of heroic tier 4e, so maybe I shouldn't worry that far ahead.

It seems to me that as it stands, Righteous Brand will be the superior choice. The addition of my weapon damage will more or less make up for the loss of damage to my ally, and the ability for action points/two weapon rangers to score a pretty good set of attacks certainly seems like it will dominate early game 'boss' fights.

Douglas
2009-02-19, 03:21 PM
Let's assume that big honkin trouble makers (the kind that this sort of focus would necessitate) probably have comparable AC and Fort defenses. This logic is flawed, obviously, but we'd go crazy trying to incorporate vs Fort and vs AC as being more/less likely to hit based on different enemies, the likelihood of my DM using one type of enemy versus another, etc.
Actually, AC is fairly consistently higher than the other three defenses across the board. There are exceptions, as always, but WotC deliberately made AC typically higher than everything else and balanced it out with weapon proficiency bonuses which are used mainly against AC. The combination of the weapon keyword and targeting a non-AC defense is, all by itself, a significant feature of the relatively few powers that have it.


Aha! That's worth noting. At L11, if I now have 22 Charisma and 16 strength (I have no idea how itemization/wealth scales, so this may be absurd)
In 4e, items and wealth have no effect on ability scores at all. The only way to increase ability scores after character creation is to level up. At the 4th and 8th levels of each tier, you pick two ability scores and increase each by one. Putting both points into the same score is not allowed. At levels 11 and 21, the beginning of the Paragon and Epic tiers, all six ability scores increase by one. Typically you pick the same ability scores to increase all six times, so if strength and charisma are your top two ability scores they will stay just as close to each other throughout your career, both rising at exactly the same rate.

Edit: Also, at-wills don't upgrade their damage until you hit Epic at level 21. Entering Paragon at level 11 makes no difference.

Mando Knight
2009-02-19, 03:40 PM
Actually, AC is fairly consistently higher than the other three defenses across the board. There are exceptions, as always, but WotC deliberately made AC typically higher than everything else and balanced it out with weapon proficiency bonuses which are used mainly against AC.

Fortitude is the main exception. Brutes (like Tiamat and Orcus) and some Soldiers (like Red Dragons) typically have Fortitude defenses that compete with their AC for highest defense. Orcus has Fortitude 51 compared to AC 48, a Red's AC and Fortitude are tied at 48, and Tiamat's are tied at 51. (Her aspect is notably weaker, with AC 33 and Fortitude 36, but then again the aspect is only level 17)

Wizard_Tom
2009-02-19, 04:12 PM
Hate to burst your bubble, but the At-Wills don't increase until level 21. Also, I recomend keeping your strength no more then 1 modifier lower then your cha as a Cha-pally. There are a number of nice powers that are Str Based even if you are a cha pally (and vice-versa).

That said, I would suggest Furious smash, as it's bonus scales better.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-19, 05:48 PM
Hate to burst your bubble, but the At-Wills don't increase until level 21. Also, I recomend keeping your strength no more then 1 modifier lower then your cha as a Cha-pally. There are a number of nice powers that are Str Based even if you are a cha pally (and vice-versa).

I'd disagree. You can make a perfectly fine non-STR Paladin; just don't expect to have much in the way of OAs. Paladins have plenty of good CHA powers, and if you go heavy WIS instead, MC Cleric can really fill out the build.

Besides, if you save your STR attacks for when you have CA, you can totally get buy with a STR mod -2 your CHA mod. Or take Blade Opportunist (+2 on OAs) to fill in the gap (until you get Heavy Blade Opportunist).

Mando Knight
2009-02-19, 05:55 PM
Besides, if you save your STR attacks for when you have CA, you can totally get buy with a STR mod -2 your CHA mod. Or take Blade Opportunist (+2 on OAs) to fill in the gap (until you get Heavy Blade Opportunist).

Or take both. Then the opponent really doesn't want to provoke a second OA. (The first one's to find out that you can do it)

Kurald Galain
2009-02-19, 06:16 PM
Righteous Brand is 1|W|+Str (let's assume a 16 for Strength and a longsword)
So I deal 1d8+3 and have an attack (at L1) of 3 (wep) +3 (str) =6 vs AC.
I grant one ally +3 to 2 attacks (assuming the use of an action point).
Yes. However, you will (probably quickly) pick up a magical weapon of some sort. That boosts damage of RB, but not FS. It gets even funnier if you have a magical weapon that e.g. sets stuff on fire on a hit, or dazes the opponent on a crit. You can't do that with FS.

Pluses to damage (as FS grants) aren't less impressive than they sound: the point of attacks is to hit with them. Pretty much every power in the handbooks has additional effects when they hit.

Example: if your comrade is a rogue, he'll easily do 30+ damage on a hit (and can blind/prone/whatever stuff when hitting them). +4 damage to that is nice but not impressive. However, should the rogue miss, if you were using RB he can action-point-and-attack-again, thus upping overall damage by 30+ again (plus special effects). This doesn't work with FS.

Aside from that, you can boost two ability scores in 4E (automatically). That should probably be strength and charisma, in your case.

RTGoodman
2009-02-19, 10:45 PM
If your Charisma's good, you could consider using a Sorcerer power or something else from PHB2 if you can get the subscription or info. The only problem, I think would be with implements.

Acid orb is Cha vs. Ref from 10 squares for 1d10 + Cha, which is decent, and burning spray is a 1d8 + Cha close burst 3. Chaos bolt is the same again, almost, in that it's vs. Will and does psychic damage, but that's it. Now, dragonfrost and storm walk are both a little better. Dragonfrost is a ranged attack vs. Fort at ranged 10, and it damages and PUSHES the target, which you could use pretty well as a defender to help out the squishy party member who suddenly got caught in melee. Storm walk is vs. Fort, also, and does equivalent damage (though I think thunder is harder to resist than cold), and lets you shift a square before or after the attack. That could be helpful, too.