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Zergrusheddie
2009-02-19, 03:25 AM
Every spell caster gets some spells that are extremely powerful. Wizards get Freezing Fog, which is likely to kill anything that doesn't have Balance, and Druids get Spontaneous Summoning which can be devastating. This got me wondering, what are the 'most powerful' spells that some classes get based level? Obviously, one spell can't just win all encounters for you; if you make a super-crazy Evoker Wizard, the DM just throws out SR or Elemental Resistance, and even the mighty Batman can be destroyed if he isn't well prepared, but there will always be spells that make you wonder "What the hell were they thinking..."

Something like Time Stop is likely to be on the list, but Time Stop is a level 9 spell. While Time Stop can win entire mass scale battles with armies, it is an extremely high level spell and is probably balanced based on what other level 9 spells can do. But something like Glitter Dust can make equal level CR encounters a cake-walk at low level. Does that mean that Glitter Dust is better than Time stop? :smalltongue:
So, what are some of the most powerful spells?

Best of luck to all of you.
-Eddie

elliott20
2009-02-19, 03:55 AM
Every spell caster gets some spells that are extremely powerful. Wizards get Freezing Fog, which is likely to kill anything that doesn't have Balance, and Druids get Spontaneous Summoning which can be devastating. This got me wondering, what are the 'most powerful' spells that some classes get based level? Obviously, one spell can't just win all encounters for you; if you make a super-crazy Evoker Wizard, the DM just throws out SR or Elemental Resistance, and even the mighty Batman can be destroyed if he isn't well prepared, but there will always be spells that make you wonder "What the hell were they thinking..."

Something like Time Stop is likely to be on the list, but Time Stop is a level 9 spell. While Time Stop can win entire mass scale battles with armies, it is an extremely high level spell and is probably balanced based on what other level 9 spells can do. But something like Glitter Dust can make equal level CR encounters a cake-walk at low level. Does that mean that Glitter Dust is better than Time stop? :smalltongue:
So, what are some of the most powerful spells?

Best of luck to all of you.
-Eddie
Actually, not all level 9 spells are created equal. Time Stop is very much a contestant for the most powerful spell in the wizard's spell list. Well, it's up there with Wish as well.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-02-19, 04:29 AM
I'll take Turn the Tank into a War Troll at Level 7 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) for 2000, Alex.

So long as we're scaling "overpoweredness" geometrically as the levels go down, anyway. If not, Programmed Amnesia probably wins out.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-19, 04:52 AM
So, what are some of the most powerful spells?

The usual: Celerity, Polymorph, Shivering Touch.

BobVosh
2009-02-19, 05:05 AM
Forcecage, glitterdust, solid fog, sleep, entangle, web

For emphasis my level 4-5 party fought 4 vampire spawns.
1 Cleric
1 Ranger
2 Wizards
1 Rogue

Both wizards get hit with dominate. 1 fails (me, lulz), and 1 succeeds. I immediatly hit the cleric and wizard with web. Wizard is stuck for the rest of the encounter, cleric uses travel domain to get out. Vampire spawns come out, and party is on wrong side of web to get me, so set out on the VS. Glitterdust the Ranger and cleric. Only the rogue is left effective. I turned a cakewalk for the party into Only the Wizards live. In two spells, that work in every combat. Which also makes me question the whole "catch batman unprepared."

See Save or Lose under batman guide, basically.

Aquillion
2009-02-19, 05:43 AM
Actually, not all level 9 spells are created equal. Time Stop is very much a contestant for the most powerful spell in the wizard's spell list. Well, it's up there with Wish as well.Time Stop is good, but not one of the best level 9 spells, and probably not really all that broken, comparatively. And Wish is simply not very good (the 5000 xp cost is more than it's worth. That is roughly one fourth of a level around the point where you get it.)

Both Shapechange and Gate are more powerful. Gate has only 1/5th the XP cost of Wish, but realistically, if used well it is going to easily solve any problem that you had even the slightest chance of solving before -- you can call up something twice your HD, chosen specifically to be good at the task at hand. If that doesn't win, you had no chance in the first place. 1000 xp is still a lot, though.

Meanwhile Shapechange is completely and totally broken in every way imaginable. Time Stop is great, but it needs to be paired with something else to be effective, you have to use at least a little strategy to get around its restrictions, and without a metamagic maximize rod or similar it involves a lot of chance in terms of how much it will help. Shapechange, OTOH, will win you the fight all on its own with no effort or additional expense required, and can be used for just about anything else you want besides.

Now, most games won't reach that level, so bread-and-butter spells like Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Slow, Resilient Sphere, Enervation and so forth probably contribute more to a wizard's power over the course of their career... and then there's some spells that are flat-out cheese, like Polymorph (if used intelligently), Shivering Touch, and Celerity, yeah...


ForcecageForcecage does have a 1500 gp material component. People keep forgetting that. Sure, that's not a prohibitive cost at that point in the game, and the spell is a nice emergency measure, but a decent wizard should have lots of other ways of solving the situation that don't hit your pocketbook.



Anyway... for other classes it's more complicated, because clerics and druids generally aren't relying entirely on their spells the way a wizard is. A cleric also changes priorities somewhat based on whether or not they're using DMM + Persist + Nightsticks or not. Of course, if we allow obvious cheese, Greater Consumptive Field is broken even without that trick and stupifyingly, game-breakingly absurd with it (to the point where I can't really imagine anyone actually playing in a game where both are allowed, because it's so clearly broken.)

I can't think of any infamously broken Druid spells off the top of my head (although I'm sure they exist.) With Druids its more the sum total of the class that is broken, rather than specific spells. But Entangle does sort of stand out...

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 08:01 AM
Control Weather and Control Winds are both pretty busted. Granted, Control Weather is a generic spell, but both can level cities. It just so happens though that Control Winds is the more broken of the two. 1 Standard Action, CL 15 Druid can create a Tornado (and those things are pretty brutal). So on level 11, get Beads of Karma and wipe out a few nations.

Other than that, Druids of course have Shapechange. And the usual suspects like Entangle, Animal Growth, Summon Nature's Ally X, Heal, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm, Reverse Gravity, etc. Giant Vermin can be loads of kickass if you keep a jar with some Scorpions in it around or some such (you'll need CL buffers to make it worthwhile though; although Colossal Scorpions do fight rather well even against CR 20 creatures - you just need to use 'em when the opponents aren't flying :P).

And that's just Core, of course. Stuff like Bite of the Werex, Creeping Cold (Extend it), Mass Snake's Swiftness (oh my God, that spell is awesome with a 4-Druid party...), Word of Balance, etc. Oh, and Owl's Insight. Since when have you been supposed to get Insight-bonus to stats? ½ CL? Hello, Wis 50!


For a Cleric, I'll just mention Miracle (duplicating just about any spell in D&D for free!), Gate and the Blasphemy line. Oh, and the "I become a superfighter"-series of buffs (Righteous Might, Divine Power & Divine Favor) and all the billions of Save-or-Dies & Save-or-Loses - Blasphemy-line gets a special mention since it skips the save. That's just PHB, of course.

Out of PHB, Greater Consumptive Field was already mentioned for the sickness that it is. Then there're billions of spells like Doomtide, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc. Really, I just don't feel like going through Spell Compendium right now.

TK-Squared
2009-02-19, 08:14 AM
Forcecage does have a 1500 gp material component. People keep forgetting that. Sure, that's not a prohibitive cost at that point in the game, and the spell is a nice emergency measure, but a decent wizard should have lots of other ways of solving the situation that don't hit your pocketbook.


That's why after you kill the enemy you forcecaged with Cloudkill, you loot his stuff and sell it. Generally, his items are probably worth more than 1,500gp.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 08:23 AM
That's why after you kill the enemy you forcecaged with Cloudkill, you loot his stuff and sell it. Generally, his items are probably worth more than 1,500gp.

Just Time Stop and use multiple Walls of Force instead. Means you earn 1500gp more.

Saph
2009-02-19, 09:19 AM
Well, I played a Druid up to level 18, and I found pretty consistently that two spells were vastly more powerful than any of the others. These would be Bite of the Werebear and Shapechange. Bite of the Werebear gives a bunch of bonus feats, enhancement bonuses to Con, Dex, and Natural Armour, and a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength (I honestly have no idea how anyone thought that was a sensible spell. With hindsight, I actually feel kind of bad for even using it in the first place.) Shapechange is completely and utterly ridiculous for obvious reasons . . . but it's just so much fun that you can't resist it. *Blink* Huge Gold Dragon *Blink* Purple Worm *Blink* Couatl *Blink* Blink Dog, and so on.

(Oh, and the Forcecage/Cloudkill combo is pretty much useless. Here's a thread I wrote a while back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61295) explaining why.)

- Saph

Aquillion
2009-02-19, 09:50 AM
That's why after you kill the enemy you forcecaged with Cloudkill, you loot his stuff and sell it. Generally, his items are probably worth more than 1,500gp.
Yeah. Like the post above me says (although there's probably more efficient ways to do it) -- if you're a wizard, you should be able to think of a way to kill your opponent without using Forcecage. Then you still get his stuff, and you don't have to waste 1,500 gp out of it.

Also, Cloudkill + Forcecage is not the reliable instakill combo people say it is. It's something that gets thrown around in message-board fights for how to kill a fighter, since it's something that will very definitely get the job done in that case unless they have one of a few tricks... but the thing is, against monsters its different. To do it reliably, you need a way to either quicken one spell (basically, a metamagic quicken rod), or you have to waste a Timestop (and be level 17+)

More importantly, for it to work, the enemy has to fit all these criteria:

* Small enough to fit in a Forcecage.
* Susceptible to poison.
* Susceptible to constitution damage.
* Unable to teleport by any means (or disintegrate, which is less common. Or Dispel / Greater Dispel magic, which can remove your Cloudkill.)

If you look over the list of high-level monsters, there are actually not that many that fall into all those categories -- immunity to poison, very large sizes, and Teleport / (Greater) Dispel Magic SLAs are all quite common among the kinds of threats you're likely to face by the time you can do it.

Basically it's a combo for killing small noncasters who do not have one of the nastier / generally-harder-to-deal-with types (most of which are immune to poison.) And those aren't the major threats at high levels, for the most part. Sure, you can kill a fighter with it... but you can already kill a fighter. The good combos are the ones that can kill things like large nasty dragons, large (generally teleporting) demons, or other casters, and this fails at that... if you're going to spend two fairly high-level spells and 1500 GP on a plan, it should be a more generally-applicable plan than this.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 03:10 PM
Bite of the Werebear gives a bunch of bonus feats, enhancement bonuses to Con, Dex, and Natural Armour, and a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength (I honestly have no idea how anyone thought that was a sensible spell. With hindsight, I actually feel kind of bad for even using it in the first place.)

Well, it's just a Polymorph into Bear. They figured that the broken part of Polymorph was that you could turn into anything, so instead they gave you a bunch of limited Monomorph-spells that change you into one creature type only. They forgot that those can still be "too good".

The Mormegil
2009-02-19, 03:57 PM
Shivering Touch. It killed an adventure.

For those who want to know why:
The party is in the Warhammer fantasy world. They must travel to a cave on the other side of the dwarven kingdom to get a special ingredient for the king's ale. The party faces a threat: the elven army attacks! 50+ elves attack the party with arrows and such (the DM expected to get us prisoners). Celerity+Windwall.
The enemy approaches (they were FAR away). The spiked chain meleer is buffed, he goes to kill things while we wait on the other side of the wall.
The meleer kills the army in round 1 with a good Mithral Tornado, but the captain and the wizard stay alive. The wizard starts casting: Prepared Action Shivering Touch + Lesser Rod of Maximize + Arcane Reach. The captain attacks the meleer: he dies to AoO murdering.
The DM calls that "only a part of the real army" (we know for a fact he didn't plan what came next): 100 satyrs come out and start to sing. Silence on our area. The satyrs are murdered by AoO machine.
Thirty treants come out of nowhere: Cooperative Chained and Empowered Twinned Shivering Touch + Rod of Maximize. Two treants left.
The DM cries and a green dragon great wyrm with pounce jumps out of the nearby forest and tries to decapitate the wizard (me...:smallredface:): Celerity + Maximized Shivering Touch + Arcane Reach.

End of Campaign: when I Metamagic Effected Persistent buffs on our fighter and sent him facing the Scaven. Yeah, all of them.

Saph
2009-02-19, 05:15 PM
Well, it's just a Polymorph into Bear. They figured that the broken part of Polymorph was that you could turn into anything, so instead they gave you a bunch of limited Monomorph-spells that change you into one creature type only. They forgot that those can still be "too good".

I think the more important thing that they forgot was that you can use these buff spells AND turn into a bear. So a level 12 Druid gets to be a Strength 31 Dire Bear with a +16 buff for a total Strength of 47. That's if you don't want to expend any extra spells. If you reach level 17 and put it together with Shapechange, you get the nastiest melee monsters in all of D&D with a +16 bonus to their Strength on top of what they can do already, which is where it gets really ridiculous.

- Saph

Keld Denar
2009-02-19, 05:33 PM
The best way to use Forcecage is to be a Shadowcraft Mage. Hello broken, goodbye cost!

And how dare you say that Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is broken...its inferior in almost every way to Haste, which is 2 levels lower. Sure, it gives a +3 moral bonus to hit and damage, but hey, its a MORAL BONUS, the most common bonus in the game next to maybe enhancement. Thus, it won't stack with a 3rd level optimized bard, which you could have with Leadership by the time you get the ability to actually cast RRotF. And another things about RRotF, is that it ONLY applies to melee attacks, while Haste is still a boon for archers. And RRotF doesn't add the save bonus, AC bonus, or increased movement speed. If Haste isn't broken, then RRotF isn't broken, and the general consensus is that Haste is pretty staple for an arcane caster, and not clasified anywhere close to Shivering Touch or similar.

As far as broken Druid spells. Wall of Thorns man. Its like Freezing Fog in that 9/10 foes are screwed straight up, and the 1 foe in 10 that isn't straight up boned from the getgo is still majorly inconvenienced for a round or 2. I've seen this spell SOLO encounters even at level 15, and they were difficult encounters. Some things just get screwed.

And yea, its already been mentioned, but I'll reiterate. Holy Word/Blasphemy/Word of Chaos/Dictum are stupid. Unless you like USA vs USSR Cold War style "whoever fires first wins" nuclear warfare, then those spells should be straight out banned. I like the concept, alignment based no-save debuffage, but CL is too easy to tweak out to the point where a level 13 cleric can solokill a room full of Balors, provided he wins initative.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 05:41 PM
I think the more important thing that they forgot was that you can use these buff spells AND turn into a bear. So a level 12 Druid gets to be a Strength 31 Dire Bear with a +16 buff for a total Strength of 47. That's if you don't want to expend any extra spells. If you reach level 17 and put it together with Shapechange, you get the nastiest melee monsters in all of D&D with a +16 bonus to their Strength on top of what they can do already, which is where it gets really ridiculous.

- Saph

Sure, but already just the +16 Strength is enough to make you better than the classes that are supposed to be good at that thing forever and ever ('cause they can only get +6 ever).

Nohwl
2009-02-19, 05:51 PM
disjunction.

AslanCross
2009-02-19, 06:02 PM
I still think that shivering touch gets way too much credit. It could theoretically incapacitate a weak, unprepared, sleeping and immobile dragon. By RAW, it's incredibly strong especially if you take into consideration that all dragons seem to have a racial DEX value of 10.

In practice, though, unless your DM enjoys the Smaug trope ("lazy sleeping dragon"), a dragon is likely to be strafing with its breath weapon until people are soft or dead, at which point it uses Crush on the wizard. If the dragon can cast 2nd-level spells, scintillating scales utterly defeats it.

Mormegil's story illustrates how strong the spell is, but yeah---I'd think a great wyrm dragon will have other things to do than just pounce. The DM was clearly desperate.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 06:55 PM
The amount of hype it gets is about right. It's a 3rd level spell that only requires Touch attack roll and SR. If both fail, the target most likely dies (use a Lesser Rod to Empower it for good measure; Lesser Rods are cheap). The spell isn't really out of line for a level 7-9 spell. Blasphemy-line requires CL instead of touch attack and has the same SR "but". This isn't much worse. I'd place it at level 8-9.

Bottomline though is that even conditional save-or-dies aren't available on level 3. There're save-or-sucks and even loses, sure, but they all offer a save and they get worse, the tougher the opponent is (not to mention, since they offer a save, the spell's low level affects them adversely). This kills things (a problem) and is 3rd level and does not offer saves. A Maximized version drops things with 18 Dex or lower. Yes you can stop it, but that does not change the fact that 3rd level spell capable of dropping opponents should offer a save. Or at least make it an actual attack roll. Just offer one defense that isn't overly easy to bypass other than "have higher than 18 Dex". Ability damage is something that's very rarely resisted before Epic, making it very powerful all the way to level 20, let alone in such quantities capable of dropping a stat to 0 on level 3.

The effect itself is broken, just the availability, the offered defenses and the amount (if it were 1d4 damage, nobody would bat an eye, but I'd still use it).


It being useful against a Great Wyrm is a side effect, it's useful against anything else too.

WrathOfLife
2009-02-19, 07:46 PM
I like Moonbolt for a cleric. It does an outrageous amount of strength damage, (Can hit several enemies, save... for half) and with the happy side effect of making undead helpless (on a save as well)

SoD
2009-02-19, 07:59 PM
I still think that shivering touch gets way too much credit. It could theoretically incapacitate a weak, unprepared, sleeping and immobile dragon. By RAW, it's incredibly strong especially if you take into consideration that all dragons seem to have a racial DEX value of 10.

In practice, though, unless your DM enjoys the Smaug trope ("lazy sleeping dragon"), a dragon is likely to be strafing with its breath weapon until people are soft or dead, at which point it uses Crush on the wizard. If the dragon can cast 2nd-level spells, scintillating scales utterly defeats it.

Mormegil's story illustrates how strong the spell is, but yeah---I'd think a great wyrm dragon will have other things to do than just pounce. The DM was clearly desperate.


And on top of that, there's the debate about weather dropping a dragons dex to 0 will affect it (other than lowering its AC).

I offer two quotes (up to opinion as to weather one=the other) as to weather the dragon is immobile, or merely annoyed and slightly clumsy;


Ability Drained
The character has permanently lost 1 or more ability score points. The character can regain drained points only through magical means. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.


A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.

Is being paralysed a paralysis effect? That is the question...

Additional; mind you, even though it mightn't work against a dragon, against that annoying fighter/barbarian/cleric/paladin/warblade/ogre/blackguard/skarn/etc. it could proove VERY effective (effective? Affective? Ah well, you get the idea).

Additional additional; what book is moonbolt in?

Zaq
2009-02-19, 09:47 PM
Are we including metamagic? Because that can really tip the scales. Nothing quite like, say, Fell Frighten Sonic Snap ("from zero to frightened in two actions, no save!" is good fun with a 2nd level slot)... and we all know the horror of an over-metamagicked Orb of Whatever. Another example: Enervation is a very strong spell. A heavily metamagicked Enervation is a win button.

Nohwl
2009-02-19, 10:01 PM
i think disjunction is the most powerful spell.(and i feel like explaining why this time.) any magic items that are being used by what youre fighting are now gone, its not buffed anymore, and whatever you are fighting is going to be a lot easier to kill. noone uses it because its too way too destructive, its very overpowered.

Flickerdart
2009-02-19, 10:12 PM
i think disjunction is the most powerful spell.(and i feel like explaining why this time.) any magic items that are being used by what youre fighting are now gone, its not buffed anymore, and whatever you are fighting is going to be a lot easier to kill. noone uses it because its too way too destructive, its very overpowered.
Except, you know, when your enemies are Hydras and such that don't have any magical gear. Or a warlord holding the Artifact Dire Mace of Whupass, destroying which permanently robs you of your casting abilities. Disjunction is powerful in the same way that a nuke is powerful...it just isn't useful.

monty
2009-02-19, 10:17 PM
Is being paralysed a paralysis effect? That is the question...

And the answer is no. Being paralyzed is not necessarily a paralysis effect. For example, under ability damage,

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
doesn't even mention the word "paralysis."

Aquillion
2009-02-19, 10:21 PM
And on top of that, there's the debate about weather dropping a dragons dex to 0 will affect it (other than lowering its AC).

I offer two quotes (up to opinion as to weather one=the other) as to weather the dragon is immobile, or merely annoyed and slightly clumsy;The point is, though, even if you follow that route, Shivering Touch is still broken. It's a third-level spell that essentially instakills anything with low or only moderate Dec with no save, requiring only a touch attack (which creatures with low dex are going to be weak against already.) That's overpowered for its level, and making a few creatures immune to it isn't enough to help. Dragons are just the most obvious example of such creatures -- but even if you exempt them, there's lots of others.

Nohwl
2009-02-19, 10:43 PM
Except, you know, when your enemies are Hydras and such that don't have any magical gear. Or a warlord holding the Artifact Dire Mace of Whupass, destroying which permanently robs you of your casting abilities. Disjunction is powerful in the same way that a nuke is powerful...it just isn't useful.

i never really got how you would (or at least in my group, when im not running it) fight something that isnt smart enough to use magic items, but it would carry them with it. against anything not using magic items, disjunction is pretty useless. if the thing you are fighting that is smart enough to use items, it becomes very useful. its not the best action because you lose loot, but if you just want to kill the thing, it works great.

Flickerdart
2009-02-19, 11:16 PM
i never really got how you would (or at least in my group, when im not running it) fight something that isnt smart enough to use magic items, but it would carry them with it. against anything not using magic items, disjunction is pretty useless. if the thing you are fighting that is smart enough to use items, it becomes very useful. its not the best action because you lose loot, but if you just want to kill the thing, it works great.
No, you are thinking of WoW, not D&D. In D&D, animals don't carry gold and silverware. At high enough levels to Disjoin, you're not going to be fighting humanoids with gear. You're fighting demons and cosmic horrors. They don't need gear to eat you for breakfast. And you just wasted a turn and are standing within 40 feet of the enemy, with none of your allies within that range. You're dead.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-19, 11:45 PM
It seems like Polymorph is the most powerful spell so far based on how low of a level you can use it.

Any other thoughts?

Zaq
2009-02-19, 11:54 PM
Arguably, even without Shadowcraft cheese, Silent Image is one of the most powerful spells for its level. Its uses really are endless.

Nohwl
2009-02-20, 09:02 AM
No, you are thinking of WoW, not D&D. In D&D, animals don't carry gold and silverware. At high enough levels to Disjoin, you're not going to be fighting humanoids with gear. You're fighting demons and cosmic horrors. They don't need gear to eat you for breakfast. And you just wasted a turn and are standing within 40 feet of the enemy, with none of your allies within that range. You're dead.

i dont question where the loot comes from. it might go away if i start to.

disjunction is more situational than other spells, yes. what about when you are fighting the bbeg? he/she is going to be buffed and is probably going to have magic items. disjunction kills anything that is relying on gear or buffs.

Darth Stabber
2009-02-20, 10:15 AM
Ego Whip is to psion as shivering touch is to wizard. 2nd lvl power, 1d4 cha and the target is dazed for 1 round will save for half (and no dazing). and every 4pp buys you another die and +2 to the save. Dead animals result.

Time Regression - nomad only, oh look that didn't work, rewind time, try again.

True Mind Switch - Telepath only, the captain Ginyu trick.

Psychic Reformation - Don't like your feats and skill choices, pick'em again.
Divert teleport - Lets you control where others go if they try to teleport away.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-20, 01:17 PM
Ego Whip is to psion as shivering touch is to wizard. 2nd lvl power, 1d4 cha and the target is dazed for 1 round will save for half (and no dazing). and every 4pp buys you another die and +2 to the save. Dead animals result.Except for everything immune to mind-affecting effects. And ability damage. And with high SR. YMMV based on campaign, but this is a lot more of a hindrance than many people realize. It IS strong, but who isn't mind-blanked halfway through the game? It's stronger than most 2nd level powers, but certainly not as broken as many arcane or divine spells of that level. Alter self, anyone?


Time Regression - nomad only, oh look that didn't work, rewind time, try again.Look at the level and the XP cost. And the fact that it's nomad-only. This is something you'll generally only use when faced with a TPK or similar. Last-ditch effort to save the campaign. Not broken at all.


True Mind Switch - Telepath only, the captain Ginyu trick.And with lots of downsides. Such as getting screwed if your last body dies. That, and it's mind-affecting, and limited to telepaths. It's not even as good as polymorph any object. Nice and strong, but not broken.


Psychic Reformation - Don't like your feats and skill choices, pick'em again.Not broken whatsoever. Preparatory casters can change their entire spell list around every single day. Spontaneous casters can swap spells out every couple of levels. And all with no XP cost. This is the only way for psionic characters to do so, and it costs XP (which balances out the fact that you can do more with it in less time). Other characters are fully capable of retraining their builds. Why should anyone be stuck with bad choices over the length of their career? Psionic reformation is very expensive over the long run, and not something you should rely on frequently, but it's not something that should be considered even overpowered, let alone broken.


Divert teleport - Lets you control where others go if they try to teleport away.Teleportation is what is broken. Any attempts to curb it sound like good ideas to me.

Really, this whole post is criticizing reasonably strong options for the levels in which you get them. Not broken by any means (though if you don't follow the psionics rules or pay any attention to the downsides of the powers in question, they can seem that way).

Certainly nowhere near as powerful as even core magic for the levels in question.

lord_khaine
2009-02-20, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Stabber
Divert teleport - Lets you control where others go if they try to teleport away.

Teleportation is what is broken. Any attempts to curb it sound like good ideas to me.


ohh, and you also forgot there is a save to avoid this, come on, make a guess as to what type it is:smallamused:


It seems like Polymorph is the most powerful spell so far based on how low of a level you can use it.

Any other thoughts?

Polymorph isnt that powerfull when you are restrictet to the MM1 monsters, its still strong, but i wont call it brokne.

Reinboom
2009-02-20, 04:00 PM
Is being paralysed a paralysis effect? That is the question...

I would also like to echo a "no" here. Mind, rules compendium trumps core (as stated), of which, the rules compendium echos the "dex 0 = immobile" thing.

For most powerful spells:
Epic spell slots.

For most powerful printed spells, in my opinion:
[Wizard/Sorcerer]
Shapechange (as stated)
Gate (gate -> gate -> gate chain)
Mindrape
Programmed Amnesia (though, a bit slow)

[Cleric]
Something taken from a different class via a domain...
Not familiar enough with the cleric's spell list beyond 5th level spells.

[Druid]
Shapechange
Not familiar enough with the druid's spell list beyond 4th level spells.

[Bard]
See Sublime Chord -> See Wizard
Glibness against certain DMs and certain campaigns.

[Kitty]
Meu~ meow~ (ridiculous intelligence drain (http://xkcd.com/231/))

Also, creative divination can be considered "extremely powerful" depending on the campaign.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-20, 04:20 PM
ohh, and you also forgot there is a save to avoid this, come on, make a guess as to what type it is:smallamused:



Polymorph isnt that powerfull when you are restrictet to the MM1 monsters, its still strong, but i wont call it brokne. Cut to the wizard hasting himself, then polymorphing into a Hydra with X heads (X=CL=<13).

Polymorph Any Object is interesting... get yourself a Beholder Familiar, just for the hell of it... come to think about it, a Wizard X/Psion 1 with Practiced Manifester can pick up Metamorphic Transfer and Polymorph any Object himself into a Choker and gain Quickness way before Shapechange is ever available.

Telonius
2009-02-20, 04:27 PM
Paladin: probably Bless Weapon, in combination with the Improved Critical, Resounding Blow, and Quell the Profane feats.

Draz74
2009-02-20, 04:37 PM
Paladin: probably Bless Weapon, in combination with the Improved Critical, Resounding Blow, and Quell the Profane feats.

Bless Weapon is nice, and probably has some minor potential for game-breaking. But I don't know if you can call a spell broken because it can be combined with three feats, not to mention even with all of this the effect isn't too impressive. (Save vs. cowering for one round, save vs. minor Strength damage ... meh.)

I think a nastier combo is Bless Weapon + Improved Critical (falchion) + Power Attack + Emerald Razor. If you do it right, that should force a Fortitude save too -- but it's not to avoid taking Strength damage, it's to avoid dying due to massive damage.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-20, 04:40 PM
Cut to the wizard hasting himself, then polymorphing into a Hydra with X heads (X=CL=<13).

Polymorph Any Object is interesting... get yourself a Beholder Familiar, just for the hell of it... come to think about it, a Wizard X/Psion 1 with Practiced Manifester can pick up Metamorphic Transfer and Polymorph any Object himself into a Choker and gain Quickness way before Shapechange is ever available.

Haste doesn't affect natural weapons. Reread the spell: it says weapon you are holding.
You don't hold heads as as hydra.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-20, 04:47 PM
Haste doesn't affect natural weapons. Reread the spell: it says weapon you are holding.
You don't hold heads as as hydra. While it was what I'd thought about, I don't see a reason why it you wouldn't still haste yourself before turning into a hydra. It's still a very good spell, even without the extra attack :smallwink:

monty
2009-02-20, 04:48 PM
Haste doesn't affect natural weapons. Reread the spell: it says weapon you are holding.
You don't hold heads as as hydra.

That's questionable. You could use the same argument to say you can't get an extra unarmed attack with it, which is pretty clearly against RAI at least.

Telonius
2009-02-20, 05:07 PM
Bless Weapon is nice, and probably has some minor potential for game-breaking. But I don't know if you can call a spell broken because it can be combined with three feats, not to mention even with all of this the effect isn't too impressive. (Save vs. cowering for one round, save vs. minor Strength damage ... meh.)

I think a nastier combo is Bless Weapon + Improved Critical (falchion) + Power Attack + Emerald Razor. If you do it right, that should force a Fortitude save too -- but it's not to avoid taking Strength damage, it's to avoid dying due to massive damage.

It's not game-breaking, but it might be the most powerful spell of the class. (And that's what we're going for here, right?)

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-20, 05:21 PM
Metamorphic Transfer has a ML requirement of 5 or above.

Also, I think one of the things people overlook with polymorph is the fact that you can only change into creatures within one size category of your own.

monty
2009-02-20, 05:25 PM
Metamorphic Transfer has a ML requirement of 5 or above.

I assumed that was the point of taking Practiced Manifester, unless I'm understanding it wrong.

AslanCross
2009-02-20, 05:26 PM
The amount of hype it gets is about right. It's a 3rd level spell that only requires Touch attack roll and SR. If both fail, the target most likely dies (use a Lesser Rod to Empower it for good measure; Lesser Rods are cheap). The spell isn't really out of line for a level 7-9 spell. Blasphemy-line requires CL instead of touch attack and has the same SR "but". This isn't much worse. I'd place it at level 8-9.

Bottomline though is that even conditional save-or-dies aren't available on level 3. There're save-or-sucks and even loses, sure, but they all offer a save and they get worse, the tougher the opponent is (not to mention, since they offer a save, the spell's low level affects them adversely). This kills things (a problem) and is 3rd level and does not offer saves. A Maximized version drops things with 18 Dex or lower. Yes you can stop it, but that does not change the fact that 3rd level spell capable of dropping opponents should offer a save. Or at least make it an actual attack roll. Just offer one defense that isn't overly easy to bypass other than "have higher than 18 Dex". Ability damage is something that's very rarely resisted before Epic, making it very powerful all the way to level 20, let alone in such quantities capable of dropping a stat to 0 on level 3.

The effect itself is broken, just the availability, the offered defenses and the amount (if it were 1d4 damage, nobody would bat an eye, but I'd still use it).


It being useful against a Great Wyrm is a side effect, it's useful against anything else too.

Ah, alright. I think I'm able to get that part. Just that I always see it coming up in "how do I kill this dragon?" threads, hence my mostly unimpressed attitude towards it.


I like Moonbolt for a cleric. It does an outrageous amount of strength damage, (Can hit several enemies, save... for half) and with the happy side effect of making undead helpless (on a save as well)

I was looking through Spell Compendium a couple of days ago and I noticed how good this spell was. Strength damage on one target is enough, but then I read and reread the description and it said "one or two targets." o_o

I'd also like to throw divine power onto the cleric pile.
"I'd like to join the fighter on the front lines." "But you only have 3/4 BAB progression!" "What 3/4 BAB progression?" It's one of those "I can make your character obsolete" spells.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-20, 05:53 PM
I assumed that was the point of taking Practiced Manifester, unless I'm understanding it wrong.

Oh. Right. Maybe I should pay a bit more attention.

Still, you'd be better off as a psion or psychic warrior with metamorphosis, since it's not restricted by the '1 size category' clause of alter self. You also don't lose MLs.

You can also make a skin of proteus for lots of 7-HD-or-lower shapeshifting. You'd be surprised how powerful less than 7 HD forms can be.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-20, 07:07 PM
An Epic spell that converts you into an Infernal or something like it.

Yes, I know the Spellcraft DC will be like 4k or sth, but that's what Legendary Commander's for.

Nohwl
2009-02-20, 09:18 PM
i dont think epic spells are included in this.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-20, 09:50 PM
i dont think epic spells are included in this.

Yeah, the idea is to toss around some spells that are more powerful than they should be (it's too low of a level, no save, etc.). Once you get to the point of epic spell casting, it just becomes silly because you are only limited to what you can imagine. Hell, I remember seeing a very elaborate post about how someone could create an object with the same size and mass as the Earth in a little over 1 year without XP penalties.

lsfreak
2009-02-20, 10:11 PM
Hell, I remember seeing a very elaborate post about how someone could create an object with the same size and mass as the Earth in a little over 1 year without XP penalties.
That immediately reminded me of http://qntm.org/?destroy#sec3

Of course, if that's truly your goal, a simple 18th level Fabricate using 18 cubic feet of anti-neutron-degenerate matter is enough to overcome an earth-like planet's binding energy, if I remember the math correctly. I'd vote that's kinda "most powerful," assuming your DM lets you take enough ranks in Knowledge (physics) to know what antimatter is without them catching on to what you're doing.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-20, 10:55 PM
Yeah, the idea is to toss around some spells that are more powerful than they should be (it's too low of a level, no save, etc.). Once you get to the point of epic spell casting, it just becomes silly because you are only limited to what you can imagine. Hell, I remember seeing a very elaborate post about how someone could create an object with the same size and mass as the Earth in a little over 1 year without XP penalties.

Then I'd say Time Stop, Miracle, Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos, Enervation, Control Winds.

Eldariel
2009-02-20, 10:57 PM
You forgot Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange.

monty
2009-02-20, 11:12 PM
You forgot Cheese Self, Cheesemorph, Cheesemorph Any Cheese and Shapecheese.

Fixed for you.

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 12:12 AM
Hmm, I wonder how delicious you taste after turning into cheese...

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-21, 12:35 AM
Not a fan of the Polymorph line, eh Monty? :smallsmile:

monty
2009-02-21, 12:52 AM
Not a fan of the Polymorph line, eh Monty? :smallsmile:

No, they're fun to play with. I just think they're horribly overpowered.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-21, 01:34 AM
Of course, if that's truly your goal, a simple 18th level Fabricate using 18 cubic feet of anti-neutron-degenerate matter is enough to overcome an earth-like planet's binding energy So?

D&D doesn't have neutrons, or antimatter, or atoms. It doesn't even have decent alchemy. You can't Fabricate material that doesn't exist in the game.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-21, 01:45 AM
Going to toss in a vote for all of the spontaneous spells; the ones that allow you to do any of a number of things with one casting. X Image, Summon X, Planar Ally/Binding, Polymorph et all, Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, and Gate all break the confines of the vancian system in a way that few others do. They give you options on both the strategic and tactical levels, which is often a lot more useful and hard for a DM to guard against than sheer power.

Also, anything that gives you aditional rounds. That's just wrong.

kpenguin
2009-02-21, 01:54 AM
So?

D&D doesn't have neutrons, or antimatter, or atoms. It doesn't even have decent alchemy. You can't Fabricate material that doesn't exist in the game.

In most games, the D&D world is considered to be exactly like the real world unless stated otherwise. Each day is still 24 hours, hot air still rises over cool, rocks still sink to the bottom of water, bloods till pump through human veins, etc.

It is reasonable to assume that since that there is no material contradicting the existence of neutrons, antimatter, or atoms and that these things exist, or theoretically exist, in the real world, they exist in the game world as well.

lsfreak
2009-02-21, 01:58 AM
In most games, the D&D world is considered to be exactly like the real world unless stated otherwise. Each day is still 24 hours, hot air still rises over cool, rocks still sink to the bottom of water, bloods till pump through human veins, etc.

It is reasonable to assume that since that there is no material contradicting the existence of neutrons, antimatter, or atoms and that these things exist, or theoretically exist, in the real world, they exist in the game world as well.
Right. The absence of RAW on the subject does not mean the subject does not exist. Of course, if your DM lets you make the successive Knowledge checks to discover the nature of cells, then molecules, then atoms, then subatomic particles, then antimatter... well, by that point you've probably other ways to mess with the world that are easier. But doing it with an 18th level spell is pretty satisfying.
EDIT: And barring house rules, of course.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 02:03 AM
I've always hoped that WotC would eventually print something about the Antimatter Chicken, He Who Guards The Deep Fryer Of The Cosmos.

theMycon
2009-02-21, 11:28 PM
I do believe "glibness" tops the bard spell list. With the Epic Uses of Bluff, it becomes an hour+ of "No, the sun really is made of green and purple puppy dogs! You don't see it? Try really looking at it for a little while!" as Suggestion, to every enemy you meet.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-22, 03:47 AM
You forgot Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange.

No I didn't. I left them out on purpose. Time Stop is instawin, Miracle gives you instant access to all your non-9th spells as well as every spell that's on a 7th level or lower list, with no XP cost or material cost (unlike Limited Wish, Wish and Contingency), the Blasphemy line and Enervation + MM are "no save, just lose", and Control Winds can destroy armies and cities from a 5th level slot. Polymorph isn't quite on the same level IMO.

Optimystik
2009-02-22, 01:13 PM
No I didn't. I left them out on purpose. Time Stop is instawin, Miracle gives you instant access to all your non-9th spells as well as every spell that's on a 7th level or lower list, with no XP cost or material cost (unlike Limited Wish, Wish and Contingency), the Blasphemy line and Enervation + MM are "no save, just lose", and Control Winds can destroy armies and cities from a 5th level slot. Polymorph isn't quite on the same level IMO.

Comparing those to PAO and Shapechange you'd be right, but Polymorph and Alter Self are available much, much earlier in a campaign and so are much more likely to have a game-warping impact.

Once your casters get access to spells like Time Stop and Miracle, you expect the game's balance to start teetering. But for the table's balance to be imperiled by level 2 and 4 spells is a far more serious situation for a DM to deal with.

Eldariel
2009-02-22, 03:44 PM
No I didn't. I left them out on purpose. Time Stop is instawin, Miracle gives you instant access to all your non-9th spells as well as every spell that's on a 7th level or lower list, with no XP cost or material cost (unlike Limited Wish, Wish and Contingency), the Blasphemy line and Enervation + MM are "no save, just lose", and Control Winds can destroy armies and cities from a 5th level slot. Polymorph isn't quite on the same level IMO.

Polymorph gets you among other things an extra action or 12 attacks or some such. In short, it's a ridiculous spell. But it doesn't even nearly measure up to Polymorph Any Object (you can permanently become a Dragon among other things qualifying for appropriate PrCs and such; you can also pump your stats skyhigh, qualify for Beholder Mage and of course, also replicate Polymorph, use it offensively and make your entire party have the best stats in all the Monster-books) or Shapechange. Arguably Polymorph Any Object is more broken because it is a permanent effect with two castings (regardless of what you're turning into what).

However, Shapechange grants you Supernatural abilities too. You can acquire any Cleric- or Wizard-casting, you can get a boatload of immunities, you can completely ridiculize your stats and so on. Time Stop wins an encounter. Shapechange wins all encounters you face that day. Polymorph Any Object wins all objects you'll face ever. And Polymorph is only rivalled by Celerity for 4th level ridicule. Killing one opponent is nothing compared to wiping the floor with the entire Monster Manual.


But really, if spell access is why you consider Miracle bad, think for a moment about Shapechange. You can acquire just about any spellcasting list. You can also acquire all kinds of things like extra actions, automatic surprise rounds, auras and such at a whim. And note that both, Contingency and Shapechange have a Focus, not Component, so it's a one-shot deal; after that you never need to pay for it again. And it's only 1500gp.

I constantly play in games allowing Contingency, Miracle, Enervation, Time Stop, etc. but I'd never play a game allowing Polymorph unless I specifically were looking for a completely ridiculously broken game where I can just let loose.

Aquillion
2009-02-22, 06:32 PM
Time Stop is instawin
I already went over this once already in this thread... Time Stop is overrated. It's not even the third-best 9th level Wizard spell. Astral Projection, Shapechange, and Gate are all clearly superior.

Sure, getting some time to buff is nice, and Time Stop is one of the best. But there's still lots of ways to get time to buff. Most of the popular offensive 'combos' people use with Time Stop are limited in application, pointlessly expensive, or unnecessarily extravagant in terms of spells wasted.

Time Stop is a powerful spell... but for a 9th level spell, it's comparatively balanced. Astral Projection, Shapechange, and Gate all allow you to break the game's rules wide open and do whatever you want (Shapechange and Gate by letting you grab almost any ability ever printed for any monster, and Astral Projection by making you totally invulnerable.) Time Stop is much, much more limited than any of them.