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View Full Version : [3.5] Divination spells to AC - PEACH



Thespianus
2009-02-19, 05:16 AM
Inspired by an article here on Giantitp, where Rich Burlew talks about creating some decent higher level Divination spells, I'd like you all to comment on the following divination spells I "invented" yesterday. Basically, the Divination school has gotten a bad rep as a primarily Oracle/Mystic-type of school. I'd like to extend that somewhat to become a bit more of an Intuitive/Luck-type of school.

They're in a standard "Minor X, X, Greater X"/progression. "Danger Sense" may sound too cheesy, but it's a start. Thanks for any comments.

Minor Danger Sense

Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

You gain an intuitive sense of your immediate physical
surroundings, allowing you to avoid danger with uncanny
precision. While benefiting from this spell, you receive
an insight bonus to AC of +1 for every two caster levels
(maximum +4 at caster level 10). You also gain a +2
luck bonus on all Reflex saving throws for the duration
of this spell. The benefit of this spell is suppressed if you lose
your Dexterity-bonus (if any) to AC, but if you regain your
Dexterity-bonus (if any) to AC within the normal duration
of this spell, the effect of the spell returns.


Danger Sense

Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

This spell functions like Minor Danger Sense with the
exception that the maximum insight bonus to AC is +8
(at caster level 15). You also gain the benefits of the
Evasion feat for the duration of the spell, if you are
wearing light armor or no armor.


Greater Danger Sense

Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

This spell functions like Danger Sense with the exception
that the maximum insight bonus to AC is +12 (at caster
level 23). You also gain the benefits of the Improved Evasion
feat for the duration of the spell, if you are wearing light armor
or no armor.


(Edited to add Dexterity clause, Insight bonus instead of dodge bonus, and light or no armor clause to Evasion&Improved Evasion effect)

FinalJustice
2009-02-19, 06:59 AM
I say it's overpowered, the reasons being:

- Multiple dodge bonuses stack, meaning you could cast both three Danger Senses to get +24 Dodge Bonus to AC (and circunvent the whole 'Effects from the same source' clause, seeing that they're differents spells and yada yada)
- Evasion/Improved evasion without armor restrictions. Plus, the ring of evasion is bad enough to make rogues and monks cry. Not a fan of handing out improved evasion as well.
- See Foresight, which is a (rather underpowered) 9th level spell that does pretty much the same your 1st level one (as far as the numbers go), but with insight bonus, longer duration and more powerful description.

Heliomance
2009-02-19, 07:43 AM
Dodge bonuses should never be granted by spells, according to the rules. This despite the fact that Haste does. The bonus you want on this is insight - that represents reacting to things almost before they happen.

Optimystik
2009-02-19, 07:51 AM
As others have mentioned, these spells should provide an Insight rather than a dodge bonus to AC. You also left out the standard "you lose this bonus when denied your Dexterity bonus" clause. Seeing danger coming is useless if you can't move out of the way.

Thespianus
2009-02-19, 08:06 AM
1) Insight bonus is better than Dodge bonus. I agree. The spells' bonus shouldn't stack. My bad.

2) I will include the standard "If you lose your dex-bonus"-clause. My (lazy) bad.

3) Foresight is a very underpowered 9th level spell, I would say, but yes it does work with the flavor I want. Thanks! It's just.. Well, a 9th level spell. :smallwink:

4) I might change the Evasion and Improved Evasion effects. I was inspired by the spell that Rich Burlew wrote, that gave the target of the spell abilities like the "Combat Reflexes" feat, but I wanted more of a "Spider Sense" feel to the spell. Hence Evasion. Maybe it's too much of a bonus. I'll definitely add the "Only when wearing light or no armor"-clause.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 08:11 AM
Foresight is only underpowered until you start to include relevant Immediate Action-spells in the game. Suddenly, the ability to use the Immediate Actions before going in initiative becomes very valuable.

Thespianus
2009-02-19, 08:32 AM
Foresight is only underpowered until you start to include relevant Immediate Action-spells in the game. Suddenly, the ability to use the Immediate Actions before going in initiative becomes very valuable.

I'm not aware of any Immediate action spells apart from Feather Fall. There are many Swift action spells, but very few Immediate action spells, IIRC.

You may be correct, though, all I'm saying is that I don't know what spells you are referring to, so I'm not sure how the situation you are referring to would play out.

But, yes, the ability to always know what the best action is to avoid the imminent attack is ofcourse very valuable.

Saph
2009-02-19, 08:40 AM
I'm not aware of any Immediate action spells apart from Feather Fall.

There are none in core, but quite a few were added in later books, especially the PHB II.

Anyway, I'd be a bit dubious about these spells, simply because they would make it so easy for a full caster or a gish to have an unhittable AC. I like the idea, but I think they'd work better as class features rather than as yet another buff spell (of which 3.5 already has a surplus). But maybe that's just me.

- Saph

olelia
2009-02-19, 08:42 AM
Sorry for the partial offtopic, but if dodge bonuses stack from the same spell does that mean repeated castings of haste will stack the ac bonus each time?:smallconfused:

Saph
2009-02-19, 08:47 AM
Sorry for the partial offtopic, but if dodge bonuses stack from the same spell does that mean repeated castings of haste will stack the ac bonus each time?:smallconfused:

The general rule is that multiple uses of the same effect don't stack. Dodge bonuses from different spells stack just fine, though (which is exactly why spells aren't supposed to grant dodge bonuses!)

I think what FinalJustice was referring to was casting the three different Danger Sense spells, thus getting three dodge bonuses from three different sources.

- Saph

Thespianus
2009-02-19, 08:53 AM
There are none in core, but quite a few were added in later books, especially the PHB II.
Ah, yes, Celerity. :smallwink:

There's a few others, too. Never mind, 9th level just seems very high for Foresight, but it's not really the topic for this thread. My bad for going off topic.


Anyway, I'd be a bit dubious about these spells, simply because they would make it so easy for a full caster or a gish to have an unhittable AC. I like the idea, but I think they'd work better as class features rather than as yet another buff spell (of which 3.5 already has a surplus). But maybe that's just me.
No, that might be a very valid point. There are plenty of buff spells in the books, and boosting AC might be the realm of other schools of magic. I'm just baffled at tiny number of Divination spells available ( only 5 in PHBII, for example), and I believe the "Spiderman"-type of danger sense should be a Divination-effect.

I should have read up better before making my Focused Diviner-character. :smallwink:

There are some Luck-feat type effects from Complete Scoundrel that might be more in the line for this type of spells. Spells that grant luck-rerolls somehow. I'll look into that.

Saph
2009-02-19, 09:01 AM
No, that might be a very valid point. There are plenty of buff spells in the books, and boosting AC might be the realm of other schools of magic. I'm just baffled at tiny number of Divination spells available ( only 5 in PHBII, for example), and I believe the "Spiderman"-type of danger sense should be a Divination-effect.

I should have read up better before making my Focused Diviner-character. :smallwink:

The Spell Compendium has a few nice ones. Targeting Ray is a personal favourite of mine; you need to be highish level to use it effectively, but it's great if you've got some ranged attackers in the party. Unluck is also very effective, as a Will-targeting spell that isn't mind-affecting. Assay Spell Resistance always good to have, too.

- Saph

Thespianus
2009-02-19, 09:11 AM
Targeting Ray has passed me by, mainly because our Barbarian likes to get up close and personal. :smallwink:

Unluck will get plenty of use once I get to that level, and Assay Spell Resistance can't be bad either.

Given the very limited number of fun higher level Divination spells, I will get the Arcane Manipulation feat when appropriate, to be able to turn one higher level spell slot into many lower level ones. It just seems to be a must for any Focused Diviner worth his salt. ;)

The lower level spells are fine, the higher level ones are not very Batman-like.

Eldariel
2009-02-19, 02:55 PM
Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Greater Prying Eyes & Brain Spider are all decent speeds. The real problem with Divination is the quantity; there're so few high-level Divination spells in all the books that meh. I can think of...7 spells above level 6 from Divination. By comparison, Conjuration has at least 20 between just PHB and SPC.

And a few important Immediate Action-spells: Greater Mirror Image [PHBII], Wings of Cover [DrM], Celerity [PHBII]

Keld Denar
2009-02-19, 03:18 PM
I dunno, I don't like Unluck on principle, for the same reasons I don't like Mind Fog. They take an action and require a failed save. Now, if I'm gonna spend a WHOLE standard action in combat, I want a little more bang for my buck. Instead of Unluck, I'll just cast Hold Person (targets same save, and same level) and just screw the person from the beginning. Or Glitterdust, which, while being a level lower, is VASTLY stronger.

Its just too much setup, which can fail just as easily. If I'm gonna debuff prior to casting my Win spell, I'm gonna cast something that doesn't allow a save or doesn't take an action. Lead Bands of Steel with a Ray of Cluminess is a much stronger combo than Unluck + Bands of Steel. Or preceed ANY spell with Enervation. 1d4 negative levels translates to -1 to -4 on all saves, and again has no save.

While I think Unluck is a really cool concept, I think it really fails in execution. Now, if it was a swift action spell that lasted for 1 round, it would be worth it, even with a save, since it would be similar to Assay Spell Resistance, except for saves instead of SR.

Also, while I understand the strengths of a will save based spell that ISN'T [Mind Affecting], a well prepared wizard should have other options at his disposal that accomplish the same task using similar or fewer resources in the same time. Glitterdust is only 1 level lower than Unluck, and is superior to it in almost every single way (no SR, 2ndary effect on a sucessful save, AoE, also Will based non-[Mind Affecting], failed save nearly completely removes target from combat). Its like saying Fireball is a strong spell because by casting Fireball twice, you can kill most things with HD similar to you CL, provided they fail BOTH saves. Its just too much room for failure and not enough return on my arcane investment.

[/rant]

Thespianus
2009-02-21, 03:48 PM
While I think Unluck is a really cool concept, I think it really fails in execution. Now, if it was a swift action spell that lasted for 1 round, it would be worth it, even with a save, since it would be similar to Assay Spell Resistance, except for saves instead of SR.


It sounds like you're not very impressed with the Focused Diviner path I've chosen? :smallwink:

That's fine, I'm beginning to feel that I took a wrong turn, but heck, I'll play along. My character is more of an Arcane Rogue than a pure Arcane Caster, so I will be heading for Unseen Seer and do my best not to get killed while glass cannoning some pretty hefty attacks with Hunter's Eye-boosted Sneak Attacks. My DM might allow me to take the Battle Touch feat from Monte Cook's book "Book of Eldritch Might 3: The Nexus" ( gives you full round attack with your damage touch spells, which ought to make that when I hit BAB 6, I can make four attacks / round with Shocking Grasp or Combust, instead of one), and then I will be the ultimate glass cannon sneak attacker :)

He might nerf it once he realizes what the feat will give me (or when he reads this thread :smallwink: ).
Anyway, I'll be a sneak attacker with decent casting capabilities. That's fine with me.