PDA

View Full Version : [4E]Zanzibar The Skill Junkie



Totally Guy
2009-02-19, 02:23 PM
Rate my godawful terrible build. His name's Zanzibar and he wants to be good at everything! He wears a red waistcoat and a fez.

Human Rogue
Str 13
Con 13
Dex 15
Int 13
Wiz 13
Cha 14

He gets Stealth and Thievery as given Rogue skills.
Picks Acrobatics, Bluff, Intimidate and Perception
Then as a human gets another: Streetwise.

For his 1st level feat he'll pick Warrior of the Wild, although he could choose anything really, he qualifies for all of them. This gives him Athletics training.
For his Human bonus feat he'll get Jack of all Trades.

So at first level he's got 8 skills trained. Which means there are 9 skills left untrained.

He's got 25HP.
AC:14
Fort:12
Ref:15
Will:13
Initiative: +2
And 7 Healing surges.

If he picks a throwing knife he has +3 Prof +2 Mod +1 Class = +6 to hit.
This means he'll be hitting level 1 baddies with a roll of 10 so about 1/2.

But he's an ambitious soul and realises that if he's patient enough to get to level 14 he might be able to train every single skill (Retraining Jack of all Trades when appropriate).:smalltongue:

By then he looks like this...

Zanzibar The Skill Junkie
Str 16
Con 15
Dex 16
Int 15
Wis 15
Cha 16

HP: 92
AC: 23 (Leather +3)
Fort: 20
Ref: 22
Will: 20
Initiave: +9
Surges 8

On Str, Dex and Cha skills he has +14
On Con, Int and Wis skills he has +13

To hit with his +3 Throwing Dagger he's got...
+3 Weapon
+7 Half Level
+3 Proficiency
+3 Modifier
+1 Rogue weapon talent.
=17 to hit

So to hit a Cyclops, Githzarai or a Salamander of his level he's go to get 11.
For a Hag or a Mindflayer his level he's got to get a 10. So we're still talking about half the time on level appropriate foes.

Good luck on your journey Zanzibar! May you discover many new horizons man of many talents.

THAC0
2009-02-19, 02:37 PM
Rate my godawful terrible build. His name's Zanzibar and he wants to be good at everything! He wears a red waistcoat and a fez.

Human Rogue
Str 13
Con 13
Dex 15
Int 13
Wiz 13
Cha 14

He gets Stealth and Thievery as given Rogue skills.
Picks Acrobatics, Bluff, Intimidate and Perception
Then as a human gets another: Streetwise.

For his 1st level feat he'll pick Warrior of the Wild, although he could choose anything really, he qualifies for all of them. This gives him Athletics training.
For his Human bonus feat he'll get Jack of all Trades.

So at first level he's got 8 skills trained. Which means there are 9 skills left untrained.

He's got 25HP.
AC:14
Fort:12
Ref:15
Will:13
Initiative: +2
And 7 Healing surges.

If he picks a throwing knife he has +3 Prof +2 Mod +1 Class = +6 to hit.
This means he'll be hitting level 1 baddies with a roll of 10 so about 1/2.

But he's an ambitious soul and realises that if he's patient enough to get to level 14 he might be able to train every single skill (Retraining Jack of all Trades when appropriate).:smalltongue:

By then he looks like this...

Zanzibar The Skill Junkie
Str 16
Con 15
Dex 16
Int 15
Wis 15
Cha 16

HP: 92
AC: 23 (Leather +3)
Fort: 20
Ref: 22
Will: 20
Initiave: +9
Surges 8

On Str, Dex and Cha skills he has +14
On Con, Int and Wis skills he has +13

To hit with his +3 Throwing Dagger he's got...
+3 Weapon
+7 Half Level
+3 Proficiency
+3 Modifier
+1 Rogue weapon talent.
=17 to hit

So to hit a Cyclops, Githzarai or a Salamander of his level he's go to get 11.
For a Hag or a Mindflayer his level he's got to get a 10. So we're still talking about half the time on level appropriate foes.

Good luck on your journey Zanzibar! May you discover many new horizons man of many talents.

Unfortunately for Zanzibar, while he may be hitting about half the time, he's being hit all the time. ;)

Totally Guy
2009-02-19, 02:50 PM
Unfortunately for Zanzibar, while he may be hitting about half the time, he's being hit all the time. ;)

He'll probably find an amulet of protection lying around. :smallwink: And maybe after he's done learning skills he could start picking up the Chain -> Scale feats. He qualifies for them and Scale has no Skill Check Penalty:smallbiggrin:.

Izmir Stinger
2009-02-19, 03:03 PM
Honestly, in a very large party (6+) this character might not be bad. The less skill inclined characters can take the "personal" skills like Endurance, Athletics and Acrobatics - stuff that a character must be able to personally roll to benefit from success - while he can master all the "group" skills where it only matters if one person in the party can make the roll, like Thievery, Arcana, Heal, Nature, etc. He will be clearly inferior to other characters in combat, but the party will never be caught flat footed in a Skill Challenge Encounter if Zanzibar is around.

I think you might be surprised how much the party would value a character that can cover all of their weaknesses so effectively. Optimizing for combat effectiveness always leaves that nagging worry that you are completely vulnerable when violence isn't possible/appropriate. Your presence will assuage that fear for the other party members and probably make you quite popular. It could also lead to you being the de-facto party leader.

Smaller parties can't pick up your loose slack in combat as easily, and might be less forgiving of your incompetence for violence.

Mando Knight
2009-02-19, 03:18 PM
I'd wait a month until the PHB 2 comes out. Then he can be a Bard, and multiclass freely. Thus, he can do a better job at doing everything. He'd still be left wanting, but at least he'd have access to multiple multiclass feats to gain extra bonuses while grabbing skills...

its_all_ogre
2009-02-19, 03:30 PM
mando knight stole my reply!
seriously i have a 3rd level bard half elf made up, i fought to make stats useable in a real game but still can m/c sorcerer, warlock, wizard, swordmage(and will to get the feat that adds int to basic melee attacks) used dilettante to take thunderwave and m/c wizard at level one for scorching burst!

so i have a leader with a heavy dose of controller.

next m/c will be warlock.
plus rampant multi-classing gets you loads of skills in addition to a host of once per encounter powers, whether the be sneak attack, hunters quarry, an at will as encounter power or whatever.
i had str 8 con 14 dex 10 int 16 wis 12 cha 18

now i could have lowered some of them to boost others, but by level 11 i'll have wis 13 and will be able to m/c cleric if i really want to and also the new controller classes like invoker and druid. plus wisdom needs to have a positive modifier for thunderwave to push foes.

eepop
2009-02-19, 03:49 PM
Not to mention, just being a bard + jack of all trades makes you pretty awesome at all non-trained skills.

Totally Guy
2009-02-19, 03:59 PM
What do Bards get?

The can multiclass as many times as they like. I know that one. But I don't know much else.:smallfrown:

KIDS
2009-02-19, 04:28 PM
I don't at all feel that he's somehow a less useful PC in combat, despite having thrown all stats and feats into skills (for extreme skills, take skill focuses once you've trained all skills). The nature of 4E is that you don't have to give up things critically important for fighting to gain those details that were your character idea, and so you don't have to give them up. Zanzibar is still completely ok in any party.

Izmir Stinger
2009-02-19, 04:41 PM
What do Bards get?

The can multiclass as many times as they like. I know that one. But I don't know much else.:smallfrown:

A +1 class bonus to all untrained skill checks (which would stack with Jack of all Trades). Also they have 5 starting skills and a very large list of class skills, missing only Stealth, Thievery and Endurance. They get Ritual Caster as a bonus feat, and apparently there will be some Bard-only rituals which they can perform X times per day at no cost (X=1Heroic,2Pargon,3Epic).

Zanzibar's dream of being able to do everything is better served by the bard class. Whether he wants to pursue being a bard is a matter of how high his tolerance for fruity behavior is, but they bit about the red waistcoat and fez makes me think it is pretty high.

Totally Guy
2009-02-19, 05:06 PM
That's interesting but...

Jack of All Trades is a diminishing return. It gets progressivly worse as the build continues. By the time the Bard gets to level 16 (not 14 as the rogue gets one more skill) this benefit is completely negated.

The class skill selection is irrelevant due to he sheer number of Feats involved.

Ritual Caster is good but the Rogue could get that within the first few levels after Skill training Arcana. Then he'd be on a par with the Bard in terms of number of skills known throughout the build.

The multiclass benefits would still be good though.

Jack of All Trades is very good when you consider the number of plusses you'd be getting for just one feat. Whereas to get that extra +3 (or +2 in the case of the Bard) costs a full feat.

But that sort of logic won't discourage the multi-talented Zanzibar!:smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2009-02-19, 06:27 PM
Rate my godawful terrible build. His name's Zanzibar and he wants to be good at everything!
He's not not the "jack of all trades", but he is the "master of none".

Your scores are way too average. You need to dump the ones that aren't important (definitely intelligence, and one each of wis/cha and str/con). Boost your dex to 18 or preferably 20, so at least you'll be good at rogue stuff.

You are overrating your skills. There are only a few skills that matter to every party member (possibly none) and a few that really don't matter at all. For everything else, it matters that one party member is good at them. Who's second best doesn't matter. E.g. the wizard will trump your arcana, therefore whether you are mediocre or awful in arcana is irrelevant.

This is a design feature: 4E is a team game, therefore nobody can become good at everything. Being mediocre at everything doesn't help anyone.


4E offers only a few ways to play each class. If you want your rogue to be effective, you need to maximize your to-hit chance, and either (1) max your damage, or (2) max your evasion; then (a) max your stealth or (b) be a good team player.

Asbestos
2009-02-19, 08:13 PM
Well, we could consider what skills he'd really 'need' to help out the party. My vote is for the knowledge skills (Int/Wis), social skills (Cha), and Thievery (Dex). I'd suggest going Cunning Bard (Cha as primary, Int as secondary) to give a boost to the Arcana/Religion/Social skill set (the first two will really help out with rituals too), get some points in Dex (a higher initiative is never a bad thing) for Stealth/Thievery. Wis should be another tertiary stat for Heal/Nature (two other great ritual skills) and then just do whatever with Con and Str, those two will only affect Zanzibar anyway.

The primary focus in Cha/Int covers quite a bit of skills already, and you could probably get a 16 in Cha at the start and still be a pretty helpful bard in combat (especially since a lot of your attacks go after Will).

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-19, 08:33 PM
I just so happened to have written up a pair of "Jack of All Trades" characters for a LV 10 Gygaxian Trap Dungeon. They fight crime :smallbiggrin:

Basically, in 4E you can make either a "go anywhere" or "know anything" JoAT. For a Know Anything, Cleric or Wizard is best; but for a Go Anywhere, you use Rogue or Ranger.

Kurald Galain is correct in noting that it is best to be really good at a few things. That said, you can actually be very good at a good number of things.

DEX, for instance, features in Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery. CHA works for Streetwise, Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Between those two ability scores, you have pretty much all you need to "go anywhere" - talk past the guards, sneak into the princesses' chamber, seduce her, and steal her necklace.

Plus, with STR, DEX, and CHA you have all three Defenses covered. Throw on an INT 13 and you can use JoAT to "fake" a +2 stat modifier in any of your other skills. Very nice for low-skill characters (Paladins!) or for specialized stat characters.

Oh, and take Linguistics for good measure. Nobody ever takes that, but it can be very helpful sometimes :smallbiggrin:

Later, I may reveal my "Know Anything" - Panoptulous, the All-Seeing Cleric :smalltongue:

quillbreaker
2009-02-19, 10:54 PM
The nature of 4E is that you don't have to give up things critically important for fighting to gain those details that were your character idea, and so you don't have to give them up.

I find it incredibly important to optimize your to-hit in 4th. I played a Changeling Warlord with a 14 strength (first multi-session character) and I missed so often I wanted to shred my character sheet. Most of the time you are only rolling one attack per round, and rolling that one attack and missing is kind of depressing, missing on dailies doubly so.

A lot of other choices you can feel free to shuffle around based on concept, but you *need* that to-hit. I keep meaning to start a "list all the sources of + to hit" 4E thread.

Optimization in general is actually pretty important in 4th overall. There were so many broken classes in 3rd that you could just take one and then do whatever the heck you wanted - even if you made extremely suboptimal build choices, your class would carry you through, especially with so much power coming from magic items. In 4th, there are no such completely broken classes (although the completely Int focused wizard-in-hide-armor, with high damage and armor class, is a bit bad), and so any class needs sensible construction to be able to make a contribution in combat.

skywalker
2009-02-19, 11:09 PM
A +1 class bonus to all untrained skill checks (which would stack with Jack of all Trades). Also they have 5 starting skills and a very large list of class skills, missing only Stealth, Thievery and Endurance. They get Ritual Caster as a bonus feat, and apparently there will be some Bard-only rituals which they can perform X times per day at no cost (X=1Heroic,2Pargon,3Epic).

:sigh:

Why?

Bards used to be the shiz... and they've gotten progressively less cool with each edition.

DSCrankshaw
2009-02-19, 11:17 PM
Since it seems relevant, I'll link to my thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1111075) on creating a Jack of All Trades bard on the WotC thread. He's not trained in all skills, but he is trained in all skills that have trained only uses, and he has at least a + 5 + 1/2 level bonus on every skill. He achieves it by 4th level, and still has okay stats as a bard too.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-02-19, 11:46 PM
So can somebody just compile a convenient list of skills that does matter to the entire group and can be taken without being the superfluous second best?

No really, I'm interested in this.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-20, 01:11 AM
So can somebody just compile a convenient list of skills that does matter to the entire group and can be taken without being the superfluous second best?

No really, I'm interested in this.

Let's see...

Acrobatics - Sometimes, you have to do your own stunts
Athletics - Ditto
Bluff - Being able to back up your ally's lies is usually a good thing
Endurance - Useful if on Natural Hazard-full campaign (holding breath, surviving without food & water, etc.)
Stealth - You're gonna have to sneak for yourself


I think that's about it. Knowledge skills can usually be referred to the Party Librarian; Diplomacy to the Party Face; and Perception/Insight to the All-Seeing Eye. These are skills you're just gonna have to man-up and do for yourself.

I included Bluff and not Diplomacy or Intimidate because you'll probably be able to foist off charming or scaring people to the Party Face, but some times the NPC will turn to you and ask "is this true?" By no means essential, but if you've got an honest face, the Party Face will thank you for the back-up :smallamused:

Totally Guy
2009-02-20, 07:27 AM
Optimization in general is actually pretty important in 4th overall.

But aside from dumping your to hit stat this build is pretty much as bad as it gets. This in a way was part of the point in this excercise.

Zanzibar is unconcerned with raising his to hit. Yes this makes him unsuccessful in combat but just how unsuccessful is that?
The question was: if someone made consistently bad choices with respect to combat optimisation, how bad would it be? And thus Zanzibar was born.:smalltongue:

He's hitting enemies about as well as he was when he first started adventuring. So with no effort comes no progress and it's pretty cool that the system scales that way.

If somebody decided that they would take combat feats and attribute plusses they'd gain power. Which is how things should be and are.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-20, 07:54 AM
But aside from dumping your to hit stat this build is pretty much as bad as it gets. This in a way was part of the point in this excercise.
So what's your point, that by making an ineffective character you end up being ineffective? That should not be surprising to anyone.


The question was: if someone made consistently bad choices with respect to combat optimisation, how bad would it be?
Pretty bad. Aside from the question of, if you're not going to do a lot of combat, why you're playing D&D - the fact is that this character isn't effective out of combat either.

Totally Guy
2009-02-20, 10:38 AM
The point is that I get to talk about D&D with cool people like Oracle Hunter, THAC0, Izmir and you. Which is a recreational activity that I really enjoy. The fact that very little of this particular conversation is deep with wisdom that will stand the test of time is no different from any other thread.

And it's pretty funny if you really think someone is going make and play this. I even put a funny face on the topic to show it's all casual here.

KIDS
2009-02-21, 02:31 PM
I've seen this idea that 4E is optimization heavy everywhere but I can't understand that. I've played several games as various classes, sometimes oprimized and sometimes not, and all those characters were perfectly able of doing their part in the group (by this I don't mean lame "I'm a monk so I attack once for 1d8+1", I mean doing as expected).

Overall, the difference between these anti-optimized and optimized combinations was something like 15-20% lesser chance to hit and/or more to be hit, statistically significant but hardly fatal for any character. In 3.5 (don't get me wrong, I liked 3.5 just as well), power differences were massive, scaling up to a dozen times more or less powerful rather than percentiles - and that was all when playing classes as intended and written in the PHB. When people actually optimized things, the differences accrued even faster than that (think normal Druid vs. sword and board fighter. Then think DMM cleric vs. anything not super-cheesed out).

For that reason, I don't really see Zanzibar as being useless or significantly less useful than others in his party. 4E has drastically reduced the importance of optimization and I really like that. Of course you can have arguments for saying that it hasn't, but consider how Zanzibar would have looked in 3.5. Even with 18 Int+Nymph's Kiss+Able Learner he wouldn't manage to be ok at all skills, and the average attributes would have made him much weaker in combat (compared to a usual rogue, let alone a batman or druid or whomever).

Dark Tira
2009-02-21, 04:27 PM
Overall, the difference between these anti-optimized and optimized combinations was something like 15-20% lesser chance to hit and/or more to be hit, statistically significant but hardly fatal for any character. In 3.5 (don't get me wrong, I liked 3.5 just as well), power differences were massive, scaling up to a dozen times more or less powerful rather than percentiles - and that was all when playing classes as intended and written in the PHB. When people actually optimized things, the differences accrued even faster than that (think normal Druid vs. sword and board fighter. Then think DMM cleric vs. anything not super-cheesed out).


Although I agree that the power difference between optimized and non-optimized characters have greatly diminished from 3.5 I think you're still underestimating 4th ed optimization.

In my current party we have 2 rogues, one is a pretty standard rogue who hits about half the time, has CA half the time, and with sneak attack averages 20 damage. The other is a completely optimized rogue who hits 75% of the time, has CA 100% of the time, and averages 43.5 on a hit. The difference is huge. Zanzibar being anti-optimized for combat is going to fare even worse comparatively in combat. Moreover, outside of combat he has no skills that would be reliable successes at his level. It's far better to completely dominate a few skills than to be mediocre at many.