Lurk vs. Psychic Rogue [D&D 3.5]

[Ascension]

I'm not very familiar at all with psionics, but I will shortly have need of something I can at least fluff as a stealthy psychic assassin. For this reason I ask you... what's the difference between a Lurk and a Psychic Rogue? It seems, just from what little I know, that the Lurk is better at psionics and the Psychic Rogue is better at... well, rogueness, but which is the superior class overall? Would it be better to just use a Spellthief, Daggerspell Mage, or the like and simply fluff the resulting arcane caster as a psychic?

[Draz74]

I'm no expert on these classes -- never played either -- but I'm under the impression that Psychic Rogue is generally the superior of the two. And that, given equal optimization effort, Psychic Rogue is also slightly better than Spellthief.

[Eldariel]

Lurk lacks Trapfinding and has 4+level skills. That's not much of a Rogue. Also, Psy Rogue has a bit more reasonable SA progression and much more class features. Frankly, Lurk kinda sucks. Psy Rogue sucks kinda less since it can do Rogue-stuff ok (but annoyingly lacks Use Magic Device) and manifest. Lurk can really only manifest poorly. Psy Rogue can catch up to normal Rogue in SA damage and does indeed do the skillcrap decently so it's a playable class, while Lurk really is just a bad Psy War. So yea, Psy Rogue FTW.

[Ascension]

Using Psychic Rogue also prevents me from having to acquire Complete Psionic, which I've heard is mostly a load of dreck, so that's good too.

[Draz74]

Complete Psionic, which I've heard is mostly a load of dreck

Exaggeration. The Ardent is one of the two best Psionic classes (the other being the Psychic Warrior). And the Soulbow PrC is great too. Some of the new powers are nifty. And Linked Power is, bar none, my very favorite Metapsionic feat.

[Eldariel]

Exaggeration. The Ardent is one of the two best Psionic classes (the other being the Psychic Warrior). And the Soulbow PrC is great too. Some of the new powers are nifty. And Linked Power is, bar none, my very favorite Metapsionic feat.

Most of the problems with Complete Psi are the changes to the original rules. They totally wreck some stuff like Astral Construct. And most of the classes are BS, but the ones you mentioned are actually pretty good. So there's some salvagable stuff to the book, but mostly it's just the powers and Ardent you'll want it for.

[Starbuck_II]

Lurk lacks Trapfinding and has 4+level skills. That's not much of a Rogue. Also, Psy Rogue has a bit more reasonable SA progression and much more class features. Frankly, Lurk kinda sucks. Psy Rogue sucks kinda less since it can do Rogue-stuff ok (but annoyingly lacks Use Magic Device) and manifest. Lurk can really only manifest poorly. Psy Rogue can catch up to normal Rogue in SA damage and does indeed do the skillcrap decently so it's a playable class, while Lurk really is just a bad Psy War. So yea, Psy Rogue FTW.

The Lurk is a Base class assassin not Rogue.
They can by level 6/8 use a Lurk augment to auto deny target Dex to AC (yes, even uncanny Dodge).

They manifest decently not poorly. And they have Use Psionic Device. So that makes Lurks better.

Which class is better depends on need/useage.

If I want a base class Assassin: play a Lurk.
If I want a rogue with psionics (besides one with Hidden Talent feat): Psy Rogue.

Lurk is best to multi with rogue after getting that deny Dex ability for more Sneak attack damage, but a single class Lurk has awesome 1st level powers:
Precog, Defense, Offense, and Prescienxe, offensive are great.
How many ways can you get more than 1 insight bonus to AC?
How many ways to get Insight to attack?
Insight to damage?
Also the power Evade Attack: Evade any attack automatically?

Lurk is definately not weak.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why not just make a Psychic Assassin (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d)? Take any combination of Rogue and Psion with Practiced Manifester to qualify. You don't even have to use Rogue, any class that gets Hide and Move Silently as class skills can meet the prerequisites. Plus Psychic Assassin can get the spectacular Mind Cripple ability by character level 10, which can outright disable most high-HP opponents in a single full attack with TWF. That's probably better than most other assassin-type abilities out there, especially considering there's no saving throw for it.

[Ascension]

Clarification: I'm looking for a recurring antagonist, not a PC. Trapfinding isn't an issue. High sneak attack would be good. I'm gravitating toward Psychic Rogue/Psychic Assassin with assorted psychic minions.

[Zaq]

Between psionic sneak attack and the lurk augment Additional Sneak Attack, you can actually at most levels get equal or even more dice of sneak attack as a straight-classed lurk than you can as a straight-classed rogue. This is generally not optimal, since you have to spend a lurk augment (a limited resource, and one requiring a swift action) AND power points to pull this off, but it can be done. As such, the lurk can kinda... nova. Not as well as a lot of other classes perhaps, but it can.

[Person_Man]

The Lurk sucks. He has to be psionically focused to Sneak Attack, his Sneak Attack progression is ridiculously slow, Lurk Augments generally suck, apply to 1 attack, & have limited uses per day, he doesn't get get Evasion until 9th level. The only thing he has going for him is two strong Saves (Will and Ref) and a better power progression (mechanically on par with Psychic Warrior, but with a weak-ish power list).

The Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is basically a fixed version of the core Rogue - slightly worse Sneak Attack progression, 2 fewer Skill points, no UMD, and no Trap Sense, in exchange for psychic ability. Their power progression is slow though, and tops out at 5th level. I've played one before, and it was pretty balanced. They are most uber at ECL 11, when they get Mind Cripple (which is far better then Crippling Strike, IMO).

Honestly, if this is for a BBEG, I don't think it matters what you choose. If you go with one or the other and it ends up that he's too weak, you can always just add levels. When I DM I often don't even bother with a formal build for my enemies. I just write out the stats and powers that I think would be interesting, give them some useful equipment (understanding that the PCs will most likely possess it some day), and then run with it.

[Starbuck_II]

The Lurk sucks. He has to be psionically focused to Sneak Attack, his Sneak Attack progression is ridiculously slow, Lurk Augments generally suck, apply to 1 attack, & have limited uses per day, he doesn't get get Evasion until 9th level. The only thing he has going for him is two strong Saves (Will and Ref) and a better power progression (mechanically on par with Psychic Warrior, but with a weak-ish power list).

Honestly, if this is for a BBEG, I don't think it matters what you choose. If you go with one or the other and it ends up that he's too weak, you can always just add levels. When I DM I often don't even bother with a formal build for my enemies. I just write out the stats and powers that I think would be interesting, give them some useful equipment (understanding that the PCs will most likely possess it some day), and then run with it.


Please, a Lurk can do Mental Assault by 3rd level (take Lurk Mastery feat) and deal more than Mind Cripple: best part it doesn't matter if you are sneak attack-able.

Lurk's initial progression is low + requires focus, but he can raise it by spending power points. And the raised value doesn't require him to be focused.

Lurks only initially use 1/attack, they get up to 2/attack at level 10, and 3/attack at level 18.
Youi can also increase number of Lurk Augments by taking feat extra.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I've played a lurk. Don't do it to yourself.

[Temp.]

For a BBEG, I would probably swing toward Lurk.

The Psychic Rogue is closer to a Rogue/Psion; if that's all you want, go for it.

The Lurk brings a bit of distinction to the table. Not many players are familiar with the class, so the Augments and evasion powers might make an encounter with one memorable. Stack on a couple other Sneak Attack-augmentations (Maiming Strike, Staggering Strike), add a bit of backup and the fight might get scary. (Mental Assault alone might put some of the PCs on the ropes.)

The class's main weakness in play is that it can't sufficiently Manifest and Augment with enough PP to last the day; with NPCs that isn't so much a problem.

Anyway, if you want to use Psionics to build a Rogue, go Psychic Rogue. If you want Psionics to build a Hexblade, Lurk works closer to that effect.