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View Full Version : automatic weapons in 3.5(ish)



armouredbear
2009-02-20, 02:36 PM
this is probably covered ad nauseam somewhere, but i couldn't find it, so i'm gonna go ahead and ask again.

in the CoC d20 rules (which i realize aren't 3.5, but i didn't much like the d20 modern automatics rules), a character with an autofire weapon and the rapid shot and multishot feats and a BA of +6 can fire 5 times in a single round. would a character with these feats and the two weapon fighting feat wielding 2 submachineguns fire 10 times per round or 6 times?

while the rules explicitly state that a character with the two weapon fighting feat can make one additional attack per round with their off-hand weapon, since firing an automatic weapon (in this kind of spraying the area with bullets way) is largely a matter of pointing and pulling the trigger, it seems counterintuitive to make the off-hand gun get only one shot off.

any opinions would be appreciated since i have to run a game on sunday and my players are gonna want to know (since they're the ones getting shot at):xykon:

Yahzi
2009-02-21, 11:43 AM
since firing an automatic weapon (in this kind of spraying the area with bullets way) is largely a matter of pointing and pulling the trigger
Firing an automatic weapon is, indeed, that easy.

Actually hitting something with it is an entirely different story. Look at the stats from Desert Storm; trained professionals swapped automatic weapon fire for days, emptied box cars of ammunition, and hardly anybody got killed by it.

(Lots of people got killed, but it wasn't from auto-fire).

After the first shot, the rest are generally wasted unless you're controlling the weapon's recoil very well, which generally means a) mounted or at least b) two hands on the dang thing.

Cainen
2009-02-21, 11:50 AM
Actually hitting something with it is an entirely different story. Look at the stats from Desert Storm; trained professionals swapped automatic weapon fire for days, emptied box cars of ammunition, and hardly anybody got killed by it.

That's because it's meant to suppress, not outright kill. The THREAT makes them go where you want them.

There's a reason burst fire is considered the most tactically versatile mode of fire.

armouredbear
2009-02-21, 01:45 PM
yes, that is very true, and the to-hit mods on those attacks reflect your comments, as do the fact that each "shot" in auto-fire takes three bullets. but rules-wise, do you think you get another full "gun's worth" of attacks with the off-hand gun or just an additional shot or perhaps something in-between?
if it makes any difference, the bad guy in question is using submachineguns sort of "shadow" style.

but considering the "suppression" idea, do you think there is a way to reflect that in game-terms? i mean, if players think they can't get hurt by machine guns, they're just going to wade in and beat folks up by hand (i think the d20 modern autofire rules are kind of like this - you can shoot an area easily, but everyone in it gets a reflex save that is relatively easy to make, so low level redshirts (and pc's) get chewed up like hamburger, but hi-level pc's are effectively immune to being hit by machine gun fire). or does that just take the heroism out of it?

further, thanks for the responses!

Yahzi
2009-02-21, 09:50 PM
if players think they can't get hurt by machine guns
I think a reflex save against auto-fire is absurd. How can you dodge what you can't even see? :smallmad:

Well, I suppose it's D&D. If you don't want to play in a Jon Woo movie, you should be playing GURPS. :smallbiggrin:

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-02-22, 12:23 AM
I think a reflex save against auto-fire is absurd. How can you dodge what you can't even see? :smallmad:

Well, I suppose it's D&D. If you don't want to play in a Jon Woo movie, you should be playing GURPS. :smallbiggrin:

You get a Reflex save against Fireball and Lightning Bolt too. Personally, dodging bullets a-la-The-Matrix is much more realistic than somehow dodging a 20-foot radius Fireball WITHOUT ACTUALLY MOVING.

Personally, I'd say the player should only get one extra attack, but they can decide (at their discretion) which gun fires during each attack. This way, they can do the whole both-barrels-blazing thing if they want, but they can only fire accurately a few times in a round.

Alternatively, you could give anyone with an automatic weapon a kind of Suppressive Fire special attack where by they can continue to fire for as long as they have ammunition. This lays down a continual line of fire that threatens damage against anyone in its path. The drawback would be that you can't aim well at a specific target, only at a specific 5-foot (or 10-foot, if 5 feet is too specific) space (maybe make it an arc like Burning Hands). This would allow Reflex saves to avoid damage, and concealment plays a big role too. Of course, they could also likely only maintain this action for perhaps a round, depending on the weapon and the magazine size (I'm fairly sure most weapons with a 30-50 round magazine expend ammunition fast enough to be empty in 6 seconds).

-JM
-JM