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riddles
2009-02-20, 02:50 PM
i'm swapping DM duties for a while and needed to write a character.

The rest of the party will be 11-12. i'm going to start at level 8 to simulate the LA buyoff. from DMing them, i know the wizard is useful but the party needs a bit of punch in combat, so i'll be playing a werebear. i'll probably have to survive for a couple of sessions in only my human form because of roleplaying issues (not trusting outsiders etc etc) and pull out the bear when needed.

32 Point Buy
Human Stats
STR 16 (10) +1 from levelling - 17
DEX 14 (6)
CON 15 (8) +1 from levelling - 16
INT 14 (6)
WIS 8 (0) +2 from lycanthropy - 10
CHA 10 (2)

Shapechanged Stats
STR 29
DEX 16
CON 24
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

barbarian 1/lycanthrope (black bear) 3/fighter 1/Warshaper 3 (srd variant barbarian)
1 Barb power attack, improved bull rush, improved toughness
2 Animal
3 Animal endurance, iron will
4 Animal
5 Fighter improved sunder (fi)
6 Warshaper steadfast determination, morphic weapons/immunities
7 Warshaper morphic body (+4STR/CON)
8 Warshaper morphic reach (+5ft reach)

At level 9, which should come early, i'll take combat brute (and get fast healing 2 from warshaper). Will carry on taking barbarian levels for the grapple bonuses and pick up shock trooper and later improved trip. it means i can be flexible in combat and let the less experienced players "roll to hit again"

what i'd like to know is whether it's worth picking up a second fighter level instead of one of the warshaper levels and getting combat brute from the get go. and general play tips on straight up melee at this level, as i've only ever played divine casters to this level. i've heard the campaign may take on a conquest angle, assembling armies and such.

[EDIT] i'd also like advice on what what be useful for weapons. i was thinking heavy flail for the trip uses but with my bite attack, a reach weapon would be useful too. i'm loathe to lose 2:1 power attack bonuses to use my claws but i'll happily listen to arguments as to why...

Keld Denar
2009-02-20, 03:53 PM
Combat Brute is kinda meh without Shocktrooper, so I'd get that. Also, the viability of that whole strat is dependant on whether or not you get Pounce with your charge. Also, what is your base race? I'm guessing Human, but I'd actually recommend Dwarf.

riddles
2009-02-20, 04:32 PM
my last character was a dwarf. so i'm taking human this time.

i'll get shock trooper later on down the line. trying not to outshine people at EVERY combat, just the ones that matter.

why is the strat dependent on pounce? i'm not looking at using natural attacks apart from bite every now and then as on the charge, power attack with a double handed weapon is great, though with leap attack the claw attacks will win out.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-20, 04:43 PM
Darn, I thought I read Care bear. Then thought it was awesome.

Are you taking pounce class ability exchange from Barbarian 1? It is in Complete Champion. You give up Fast Movement.

riddles
2009-02-20, 04:48 PM
pounce is lion totem, my background is going to be from a barbarian clan that worships bears. clashes a bit. that and complete champion isn't being used in this campaign. i'm pretty much limited to srd, complete warrior and phb2

i am taking the bear totem variant from UA. it's fluffy and i likes it.

i could always be a care bear. i'd be love bear. he was cool

Keld Denar
2009-02-20, 05:32 PM
The only really good part of Combat Brute is Momentum Swing, which you almost need Shocktrooper to use effectively. The other 2 abilities of Combat Brute just aren't that useful, especially Sundering Cleave (smashing useable equipment makes everyone sad).

Really, I think you might end up with more damage if you utilize all of your natural weapons. Get a non-standard weapon from Complete Scoundrel like a Braid Blade or Weighted Cloak, then use all of your natural weapons as secondary weapons. Sure, you won't get 2-1 PA, but you'll get more attacks at higher AB with a decent portion of your str on all of them. Nab Multiattack and maybe Improved Multiattack for more AB. Otherwise, consider Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike from the Draconomicon to get 2 sets of iteratives with your claws, which would be augemented by Warshaper.

The reason I was suggesting Dwarf, is so you could get 2 levels fo the Deepwarden PrC. You pretty much qualify already, and that would give you Con to AC instead of Dex, which would be really helpful in Hybred or Bear form since any armor you would wear would meld with you.

riddles
2009-02-20, 06:10 PM
sundering cleave is situationally useful - tough mooks with shields etc. hydras being a good example. but i'll consider what you've said. i can get shocktrooper early then.

with the natural weapons thing, i'll get 2 claws and a bite. i need to take the feats you mentioned to get up to 5 attacks with my natural weapons. these are difficult to enchant unless i have a friendly druid around. but if i use a weapon and one secondary natural attack, i get 5 attacks and have spent a grand total of 1 feat. i'm struggling to see the benefit unless i get pounce? sorry, i don't mean to be rude, i'm really interested in how this interacts with being a pc

looked at deepwarden. it's great, but i was under the impression magical armour resized to the wearer? i don't change size when i shift to hybrid form...

Keld Denar
2009-02-20, 06:41 PM
Situationally useful is hardly worth dropping 2 feats on. Momentum Swing is ok, but if you are using Shocktrooper, hopefully things are dead in the first round, and you don't have to worry about Momentum Swing.

And for Deepwarden and shifting, if your hybred form is capable of wearing armor, then yes, a magical (even if its just +1) breastplate would reshape around you provided you don't change size. Regardless, your Con is gonna be higher than your Dex, especially while shifting, and thus you would benefit from the Stonewarden ability, and your AC would actually go UP while shapeshifted since your Con would increase.

I'm not sure about standard actions, since I was under the impression that unless you were something completely funky, like a Hydra, you only get 1 attack with any weapon as a standard action.

Now, full attacks are seperate. In a full attack, you can make a full attack with a weapon with iteratives based on your BAB. THEN you can make attacks with any natural weapons that aren't negated by the need to hold the weapon.

So, for numbers sake, ignoring Str and other modifiers, a wearbear with a BAB of +11 using a Weighted Cloak (doesn't take hand slots) would attack thusly:

Cloak attacks: +11/+6/+1
Claws: +6/+6
Bite: +6

With Multiattack, this would improve to:

Cloak attacks: +11/+6/+1
Claws: +9/+9
Bite: +9

With Improved Multiattack, this would improve to:
Cloak attacks: +11/+6/+1
Claws: +11/+11
Bite: +11

With Improved Multiattack and Rapid Strike (claws), you'd have:
Cloak attacks: +11/+6/+1
Claws: +11/+11/+6/+6
Bite: +11

And with Improved Multiattack and Improved Rapid Strike (claws), you'd get:
Cloak attacks: +11/+6/+1
Claws: +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1
Bite: +11

Note that all of your natural attacks would be considered "offhand" and thus only get +1/2 strength bonus. Your attacks with the cloak (or other non-handed weapon) would receive full +1 x str bonus.

Now, you'd have to run some numbers, but I'm pretty sure with massive bear str and a large number of attacks, you'd come out to slightly more damage than 2-1 PAing would, but it would be pretty close. The natural attacks would be terribly vulnerable to DR though, like from a Construct or Outsider unless you dropped a large chunk of cash to augement yourself.

If you do go Dwarf, and head into Pious Templar after you finish your beastiness, you would nab some Paladin casting. Races of Stone has a spell called Earth Hammer, which increases the effective size of a weapon and makes it count as Adamantine if you are a dwarf. Oh, and its a swift action spell. Taking Improved Natural Attack (claws) and casting that would net you a +2 size increase on your claw damage, which would be pretty fun. Alternatively, if you could get a Monklike Unarmed Strike (like from Fist of the Forest) you could attack with that AND your natural attacks and be pretty beastly. The UAS would scale well with size and buffs like Greater Mighty Wallop.

Just some stream of consiousness thoughts thrown out there...

riddles
2009-02-20, 06:50 PM
this is all brilliant information keld. i didn't see that the weapons from complete scoundral don't take up hand slots, allowing me to get a lot of full attacks. i am wrong about 2 claws on a standard attack.

i was in the middle of editing my post while you posted. i'll have a look at complete scoundral for the weapons.

[edit] if i can't get hold of a no handed weapon, could i do a similar thing with a one handed weapon? rapid strike giving me 2 attacks with a claw, improved rapid strike giving me 3?

Keld Denar
2009-02-20, 06:58 PM
Yea, they got things like Elbow Blades and Boot Blades and a whole asortment of neato stuff. Even if the base dice aren't that impressive, anything will make a sizeable whole if you put enough bear power behind it.

BTW, I'm assuming you are using the Werebear template from the MM? There is a savage progression of it on the WotC site, if you want to break your build down by ECL. I find this makes it easier to build.

riddles
2009-02-20, 07:03 PM
i'm not. i've used the lycanthropy template with a black bear. i only suck up 3 animal HD and get +8STR, +2DEX and +4CON and with level buy off, and entering the campaign at a high level lets me buy off LA

i'll look into getting pounce or using deep warden. many thanks keld.