I now understand celias purpose

[mofabulous]

Shes Haleys Elan.

Roy has Elan to annoy him.

Haley has Celia to annoy her.


It seems kind of odd shes so hated though. I always thought she was funny since she frustrated Haley so much, but I didnt realize how much she resemebled Elans role to Roy till I reread the comics.

She plays a fairly critical comic role to the Haley subplot. If Haley didnt have someone like Elan to struggle with that subplot wouldnt be as funny.

I'm betting Rich will mention this in the next book. Of course this could be just speculation.

[David Argall]

Well, there are differences. Elan is, for the most part, simply worthless. Celia, by contrast, has been highly useful, or hindering. The balance may be the same, but neutrality has not been her role. And Roy has always been wondering if there was not a kind way to get rid of Elan. Haley may be furious with Celia at the moment, but she is still sorta friends with her and is not thinking of how to kick her to the curb.

[gjp]

Celia may also be necessary to help V wiggle out of a contract with evil.

[Zeitgeist]

Well, there are differences. Elan is, for the most part, simply worthless.

It seems you have not read any dashing swordsman comics. If you notice, ever since then, he's done quite well in battle.

[Wikimaster]

Shes Haleys Elan.

Roy has Elan to annoy him.

Haley has Celia to annoy her.


It seems kind of odd shes so hated though. I always thought she was funny since she frustrated Haley so much, but I didnt realize how much she resemebled Elans role to Roy till I reread the comics.

She plays a fairly critical comic role to the Haley subplot. If Haley didnt have someone like Elan to struggle with that subplot wouldnt be as funny.

I'm betting Rich will mention this in the next book. Of course this could be just speculation.

Perhaps, but in my estimation, she isn't doing as well as Elan. Also, She's hated because she constantly seems to swing from asset to liability on a timely basis, and suddenly got stuck in liability. Hard. I think Rich is setting us up for a joke about 'Author's Saving Throws'.

[LuisDantas]

It seems you have not read any dashing swordsman comics. If you notice, ever since then, he's done quite well in battle.

He's vastly improved, but even he himself describes himself as "semi-competent". And he was completely unable of standing up to Kubota's minions, as well.

I don't know that I agree with David Argall's interpretation of him as neutral, either; Elan blundered his inspirational speech for the Azure City army quite badly, for instance.

Nor do I understand why Celia has been branded as such a liability, either. She commited exactly one major mistake, which was miscaring for Roy's corpse to the extent of allowing it becoming a golem. And even that might be fixed by some clause in her agreement with the Thieve's Guild, for all we know.

Apparently most people blame her quite a lot for her decision to basically buy their way out of a lethal conflict at Pete's house with some of Haley's money. I just don't see the logic in hating her so much for that.

[kusje]

Apparently most people blame her quite a lot for her decision to basically buy their way out of a lethal conflict at Pete's house with some of Haley's money. I just don't see the logic in hating her so much for that.

The "lethal conflict" was over. When you're bargaining from a superior position, you usually expect to get loads in return, not give out loads.

[madmotoristmonk]

There are exactly 3 reasons why Celia is being dubbed the "scrappy"
I'm not saying she is but these are the top 3 reasons

1. She's not of the orders profession, how many times has she tried to call out Haley and Belkar for doing their jobs. Her pacafism isn't pragmatic to their goals and having someone play "moral gaurdian fairy" over and over can get quite annoying

2. She's has been swinging from asset to liability. Sure she mixed up Roy in the whole "your a golem now mess" but other than that she has proved herself usefull. She gave Haley that cloud cover, She negotiated the contract yadda yadda.

3. Its pretty much a culmination of her naivity of the rules and doings of the "real world" and most of all this thumping assumption since she was appraised of the Roy situation that she's the only one who really cares about Roy. (your best friends high horsed girl friend (one night stand/booty call) of all of 6 hours suddenly decides that she's the one needed to give the Eulogy, she's the one who has to fall down on her knees at the wake, she's intitled to divy up the will and execution.)

Celia is for exapmple, like someone who comes in to your life and suddenly starts pointing out and spotlighting every moraly gray, questionable thing you do. Its like an obnoxious vegan.

[[TS] Shadow]

Your comparision between Celia and Elan is okay, but I see two major differences. First off, Roy has always managed to keep Elan under control. While Elan was largely useless in battle, he pretty much did whatever Roy wanted him to. The second thing is that Elan respected Roy, and looked up to him. Most of the time (not all, most), Elan never TRIED to frustrate Roy. His stupidity led to that. He respects Roy, looks up to him, and sees him as a father/older brother figure. I can't see that with Celia to Haley. They seem like they're sorta friends, but Celia has made it clear that she doesn't see herself under Haley's command. She doesn't listen to her, and she shoves her holyier-than-thou morals down Haley's throat.

[Itous]

ok if elan annoys roy
celia annoys hayley
V annoys belkar
Belkar annoys V

then who annoys durokan?

[Dixieboy]

Shadow;5799902']Your comparision between Celia and Elan is okay, but I see two major differences. First off, Roy has always managed to keep Elan under control. i beg you pardon, i seem to recall that the first time Elan gets the chance he uses a crayon to draw all over Roy's face, later on he makes Xykons castle explode. In general, while he is sort of obedient his general attitude makes him uncontrollable, also he's chaotic
but Celia has made it clear that she doesn't see herself under Haley's command. She doesn't listen to her, and she shoves her holyier-than-thou morals down Haley's throat.
Yet she obeys orders on about as big a percentile ratio as Elan does




then who annoys durkon?Trees, Vesuvius and Elan at the moment

[Kish]

ok if elan annoys roy
celia annoys hayley
V annoys belkar
Belkar annoys V

then who annoys durokan?

Xykon annoyed, and much worse than annoyed, Dorukan. In the Order of the Scribble, though, we could only speculate about which group member annoyed Dorukan most--beyond that it certainly wasn't Lirian.

[SirEdward]

Celia is for exapmple, like someone who comes in to your life and suddenly starts pointing out and spotlighting every moraly gray, questionable thing you do. Its like an obnoxious vegan.
That's only part of it. Celia is not just guilting Haley, as there's plenty that Haley has done that conflicts with her moral compass. Celia is guilting Haley with a morality system entirely different from any that Haley can identify with. It's one thing to proselytize Haley to her own morality, then guilt her, but its downright rude to skip straight to guilt.

And yes, Celia is an obnoxious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html) vegan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

[Zeitgeist]

Apparently most people blame her quite a lot for her decision to basically buy their way out of a lethal conflict at Pete's house with some of Haley's money. I just don't see the logic in hating her so much for that.

She made a deal, in the thieves guild favor, in order to end a conflict that was in Haley's favor. That's very bad dealings, and should rightfully piss anybody off.

[littlequietguy]

Shes Haleys Elan.

Roy has Elan to annoy him.

Haley has Celia to annoy her.


Pure genius.
And that's not sarcasm, I honestly never would have thought of that.

[David Argall]

It seems you have not read any dashing swordsman comics. If you notice, ever since then, he's done quite well in battle.

438-he has to be rescued from a couple of mook hobs.
478-he is useless vs the squid
479&481-he functions, briefly, under V's direct supervision, but ends up messing up.
more recently, he deems himself useless vs the devil & gets taken captive in the Kato's quarters.

He has his moments, but he is still Elan the Incompetent.

[Zeitgeist]

Bard's don't get the appreciation they're due. All jokes about bard song's aside, in addition to being better in combat, we don't even know how many times his songs have allowed somebody to kill an enemy one turn sooner, thus saving themselves some damage taken.

Bards aren't supposed to be super damage dealing maniacs. He's shown his helpfulness in combat to be above par for a bard, I think. And once you throw in the usefulness of his songs (which we are unable to quantify), he might be a pretty valuable member in combat.

[Lord Seth]

Shes Haleys Elan.

Roy has Elan to annoy him.

Haley has Celia to annoy her. Elan was funny, Celia isn't.



It seems kind of odd shes so hated though.Because she derailed plot resolution because of doing something so stupid that I don't think even pre-Dashing Swordsman Elan would have done and has refused to take any level of responsibility for said stupid act.

Incidentally, as you do it throughout the message, I should point out that the apostrophe key does exist and you should really use it. For example, that should be "she's" and not "shes".


I always thought she was funny since she frustrated Haley so much, but I didnt realize how much she resemebled Elans role to Roy till I reread the comics.Yeah, ignoring someone's advice and thus getting that person into a mess that nearly results in them getting killed (if not for Belkar's curse being lifted, it's almost certain that Haley would've died), dumping a giant debt on them to resolve said mess despite the fact they were actually winning, and then getting sarcastically insulting to them when they complain is really funny.

[Kaytara]

Bard's don't get the appreciation they're due. All jokes about bard song's aside, in addition to being better in combat, we don't even know how many times his songs have allowed somebody to kill an enemy one turn sooner, thus saving themselves some damage taken.

Bards aren't supposed to be super damage dealing maniacs. He's shown his helpfulness in combat to be above par for a bard, I think. And once you throw in the usefulness of his songs (which we are unable to quantify), he might be a pretty valuable member in combat.

If Elan were just generally pretty useless but provided some support on the side, it would've been fine. That's what bards are about.
The problem with Elan is that his screw-ups far, far outweigh the assumed bonus from his bard songs and whatnot.
It's not that he's incapable of positively influencing the battle in a major way. It's that he influences it negatively.

Therkla wouldn't have died if only Elan had learned the Neutralize Poison spell.
(In the same vein, while a lot of V's troubles could've been avoided with the help of a Teleport spell, barring Conjuration was a perfectly legitimate decision in 3.0. Elan doesn't have that excuse.)

[Gamiress]

Therkla wouldn't have died if only Elan had learned the Neutralize Poison spell.
(In the same vein, while a lot of V's troubles could've been avoided with the help of a Teleport spell, barring Conjuration was a perfectly legitimate decision in 3.0. Elan doesn't have that excuse.)

I don't imagine he thought it would ever come up. They always had Durkon for healing, and he was rubbish with magic until Vaarsuvius gave him a couple quick lessons.

Elan has proven to be something of a positive asset in actual battles, even before he took levels in Dashing Swordsman. The problem was he didn't know which skills were appropriate to use and when, he was only familiar with one spell, and he was so childlike as to be annoying. Thus, any time the Order wasn't actively engaged in battle, he became Elan the Lodestone.

[LuisDantas]

She made a deal, in the thieves guild favor, in order to end a conflict that was in Haley's favor. That's very bad dealings, and should rightfully piss anybody off.

That's obviously how Haley perceives the situation, and apparently also the dominant view among readers.

I don't think that is better than arguable, however. I certainly don't share such a perspective. For all I know, Celia herself would have died hadn't she thought about that deal. Heck, for all I know Haley would have died if the fight went on.

Besides, I just don't see how the Guild was favored by the deal. In fact, I wonder why they agreed with it at all.

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, ignoring someone's advice and thus getting that person into a mess that nearly results in them getting killed (if not for Belkar's curse being lifted, it's almost certain that Haley would've died), dumping a giant debt on them to resolve said mess despite the fact they were actually winning, and then getting sarcastically insulting to them when they complain is really funny.

I'll readily grant the Golem-related blame is indeed Celia's (although Haley really should have been more forward about her reasons), and I've already pointed that the debt situation is arguable at the very least.

But the insult? Haley totally earned it. It was payback for a completely similar insult (with the same wording, even) just a few strips prior.

[Lord Seth]

Besides, I just don't see how the Guild was favored by the deal. In fact, I wonder why they agreed with it at all.Getting, as they said, "a financial windfall" isn't favorable to them?

[Lord Seth]

I'll readily grant the Golem-related blame is indeed Celia's (although Haley really should have been more forward about her reasons),Haley said it was dangerous and stated directly that people get killed for just having money. How is that somehow hard for someone to understand?



But the insult? Haley totally earned it. It was payback for a completely similar insult (with the same wording, even) just a few strips prior.Again, let's review.

Haley gave a good reason to avoid Greysky City, which Celia stupidly ignored. Then she decides to resolve the whole thing by dumping a massive debt on Haley, despite the fact that Haley gave an excellent reason to avoid Greysky City, and that the mess is Celia's fault. Under those circumstances, Celia should have really been pretty apologetic, but she was in fact the opposite. Her sarcasm showed that she is still refusing to accept accountability for the whole mess, and that is what annoys me most.

[[TS] Shadow]

i beg you pardon, i seem to recall that the first time Elan gets the chance he uses a crayon to draw all over Roy's face, later on he makes Xykons castle explode. In general, while he is sort of obedient his general attitude makes him uncontrollable, also he's chaotic
Yet she obeys orders on about as big a percentile ratio as Elan does.

Ahem. If you read my entire post, you'll see I said this:

Most of the time (not all, most), Elan never TRIED to frustrate Roy.
The thing with the crayon was the reason I put that in my post. But really, that's the ONLY time Elan tried to annoy Roy, as far as I can tell. 99% of the time, he does it inadvertantly. As for the castle thing, he wasn't trying to make Roy mad then. He was just being Elan being Elan (read: an idiot.)

Also, Elan obeys Roy ALL the time. Whenever he does something stupid, he's not going against Roy. He's just doing something else, something that Roy didn't tell him NOT to do. Celia, on the other hand, has made a huge slip-up in bringing Roy's corpse to Greysky, something Haley told Celia multiple times not to do. Also, Celia refused to help Haley during the Theives Guild fight in Pete's house, even though Haley asked for it. She's shown herself to be disobedient so far. Elan hasn't.

[Lord Seth]

Even the crayon thing was just for fun, and didn't cause any actual problems for the group.

I should mention it was back in #38 also, so the character's personalities might not have been fully realized yet.

[shadowdemon_lord]

Bard's don't get the appreciation they're due. All jokes about bard song's aside, in addition to being better in combat, we don't even know how many times his songs have allowed somebody to kill an enemy one turn sooner, thus saving themselves some damage taken.

Bards aren't supposed to be super damage dealing maniacs. He's shown his helpfulness in combat to be above par for a bard, I think. And once you throw in the usefulness of his songs (which we are unable to quantify), he might be a pretty valuable member in combat.

Are you kidding? His effectiveness in combat to be above par for a bard? He doesn't have any healing spells (yes Durkons there to do it, but having more then one healer is useful in hosts of situations). he doesn't have dim door, mirror image, invisibility, silence, dominate person, or displacement. In effect he's a bard that doesn't cast spells (aside from illusions when he's reminded). Bards run support very well, and a lot of that is in their spells. On top of that his songs and inspirational speeches have gotten him in trouble almost more then they've helped anything. His character is an example of the stereotype of why bards suck, the stereotype is of course bogus (they only suck when you compare them to the cheese of druid/wizard/cleric/psion/sorceror).

[Zeitgeist]

In combat, yes. I don't know how I'm the only one to notice he's done his fair share of skillful fighting.

And I'm not going to dig up sources, but he's used illusions effectively more than just when told. His songs only really got him in trouble in the early strips, when it was still about jokes all the time. To presume it still works that way is pretty unfounded. His "mistakes" have been for comedic purposes, and I really doubt they had any long lasting effects. We have no clue how many times his songs have made a difference in battle, and there's no way you can assume they haven't done anything good.

He's nothing like Celia. Celia is a sword that refuses to be unsheathed. Elan is a sword that wobbles a little when used, but follows orders. Celia could be the most powerful being in the universe and she's still be a useless burden. Celia is stuck in her ways, Elan only needs to be taught.

[Slippery Bogle]

He's vastly improved, but even he himself describes himself as "semi-competent". And he was completely unable of standing up to Kubota's minions, as well.

I don't know that I agree with David Argall's interpretation of him as neutral, either; Elan blundered his inspirational speech for the Azure City army quite badly, for instance.

Nor do I understand why Celia has been branded as such a liability, either. She commited exactly one major mistake, which was miscaring for Roy's corpse to the extent of allowing it becoming a golem. And even that might be fixed by some clause in her agreement with the Thieve's Guild, for all we know.

Apparently most people blame her quite a lot for her decision to basically buy their way out of a lethal conflict at Pete's house with some of Haley's money. I just don't see the logic in hating her so much for that.

I think it's also because of the added thought of: "we wouldn't be here in the first place if it wasn't for you taking Roy's corpse to get turned into a golum and being so gullible for letting that happen". Then she wouldn't have had to use some of Haley's money to get out of that jam. But the fact that she did focus her efforts on trying to solve the best way she could (in her mind anyway, which is of the non-violent variety as stated).

Though, I don't think Celia exactly fits the same role for Haley as Elan does for Roy. I mean, she is probably more capable of doing stuff and understanding situations better than Elan does. Although, she has shown a fair bit of ignorance when it came to certain subjects. Either way: she can fly, she can show lightning out of her hands, she knows some law stuff... I'd say she's pretty useful. While Elan has yet to fully prove that he's capable of understanding fully certain situations and dealing with the properly. He's getting better at it, yes. But not fully there in my mind. It's probably the fact that Roy isn't around to carry him all the time that he is growing to be able to handle adventuring or what have you.


You could say that Elan and Celia are similar to each other in some respects but different in others.

[theMycon]

That's obviously how Haley perceives the situation, and apparently also the dominant view among readers.

I don't think that is better than arguable, however. I certainly don't share such a perspective. For all I know, Celia herself would have died hadn't she thought about that deal. Heck, for all I know Haley would have died if the fight went on.

While I see why the guild benefits (money)... I really do see Celia's negotiation to be a pretty big benefit for Haley, too. They don't have to deal with the golems to get to grubwiggler, and Roy gets revived no-fuss-no-mess, no more searching for a cleric. A +7 weapon (98,000) is probably about even to what she lost, if not more, and she wouldn't have found it without Celia's going into Greysky. And she doesn't have to deal with fighting her way out of the city, or worry about the thief's guild whatsoever anymore.

It's also a *massive* benefit for the population of the city. While Haley was busy mowing down people she's known since her childhood, with a smile on her face (Killing in self-defense, I understand. Being happy about it? That's seriously mentally ill.), she was about to throw the city into chaos, exactly as the guildsman said. If Celia hadn't negotiated that truce, Haley would've started a small civil war. There are probably some innocents in Greysky city, and I have no doubt they'd have died in the crossfire.

[Lupy]

then who annoys durokan?

Xykon. :smallamused:

[slayerx]

While I see why the guild benefits (money)... I really do see Celia's negotiation to be a pretty big benefit for Haley, too. They don't have to deal with the golems to get to grubwiggler, and Roy gets revived no-fuss-no-mess, no more searching for a cleric. A +7 weapon (98,000) is probably about even to what she lost, if not more, and she wouldn't have found it without Celia's going into Greysky. And she doesn't have to deal with fighting her way out of the city, or worry about the thief's guild whatsoever anymore.

The whole greysky incident, while it may have started out due to a major boop up, it has actually turned into a pretty good thing...

I mean it would have taken them weeks to get to cliffport if i recall, but now that the deal is set they are gonna be able to get Roy raised far sooner, and they will also be able to use the Chruch of Loki to contact Durkon and Elan and thus work to getting them reunited sooner

Grant this all comes at a deep cost for Haley... is the time saved worth the weeks that they saved? definatly not in Haley's opinion... Though i do think Haley is gonna betray the guild after she get's what she wants out of them; Afterall, while she is stuck paying up now, she doesn't want to have to KEEP paying them for the rest of her life... once she got what she wants, she skips town never to return again... Although, Unless Haley thought that just she and Belakr could get through the golems to get to roy's corpse back, hiring the mercs needed to help would have also cost a pretty penny; not as mcuh as what she probably owes the guild, but still worth mentioning



then who annoys durokan?
Most recently, it's been V

[magic9mushroom]

Haley should have just killed Bozzok, told Hank he was the new head, and killed anyone who disagreed, and demanded Roy's resurrection. There really wasn't anything the Guild would have been able to do. Celia should have kept her own preferences out of negotiating on someone else's behalf.

That aside, Celia is a foil for Haley and Belkar both, and will likely die mysteriously with twin blood sprays left on the walls. Probably just after Roy is resurrected.

[Optimystik]

Elan was funny, Celia isn't.

Thread over.

[slayerx]

Haley should have just killed Bozzok, told Hank he was the new head, and killed anyone who disagreed, and demanded Roy's resurrection. There really wasn't anything the Guild would have been able to do. Celia should have kept her own preferences out of negotiating on someone else's behalf.


Wouldn't have worked out... Threatening the rest of the guild to put Hank in charge only lasts so long as she is around; once she leaves, anyone who thinks that can stand up to Hank would and he could loose control... power gained through fear only lasts so long as the fear remains

Furtharmore, the demand for help in recovering Roy and his ressurection would not work as anyone she kills could be resurrected by the church of loki... This incidentally includes Bozzok (once again pointing out how sparing peoples lives seems meaningless when you have "raise dead" spells handy; it just gets costly after too many deaths)... The church of Loki would not help Haley if without the guild's permission... you could argue that Haley could threaten and start killing Loki priests, though we first have to assume that there aren't any high level priest, and second of all that Haley is chaotic GOOD, and killing people who, while they are evil align, have committed no actual wrong doing against you in an effort to force their will to do your bidding starts to sneak into the "Evil" end of the alignment spectrum...

[Ghastly Epigram]

Elan was funny, Celia isn't.


Yeah, ignoring someone's advice and thus getting that person into a mess that nearly results in them getting killed (if not for Belkar's curse being lifted, it's almost certain that Haley would've died), dumping a giant debt on them to resolve said mess despite the fact they were actually winning, and then getting sarcastically insulting to them when they complain is really funny.

Yeah man, totally. Hey, you know what else was really funny? When Elan pressed that clearly marked self-destruct rune in the Dungeons of Dorukan and nearly killed the entire Order. That was reaaaaal hilarious.

:smallwink:

[kpenguin]

Most recently, it's been V

I don't think Durokan even knows V

[thubby]

i think she shares more of a purpose with miko than anyone else. and i wouldn't be surprised in the least if that was the giant's plan.

[slayerx]

I don't think Durokan even knows V

Considering the contex of Itous's post i believe he was talking about :durkon: and just misspelled his name

[TheBST]

Yeah man, totally. Hey, you know what else was really funny? When Elan pressed that clearly marked self-destruct rune in the Dungeons of Dorukan and nearly killed the entire Order. That was reaaaaal hilarious.

Yes. Yes it was.

I'm glad we've reached all reached a consensus!

[Optimystik]

Yeah man, totally. Hey, you know what else was really funny? When Elan pressed that clearly marked self-destruct rune in the Dungeons of Dorukan and nearly killed the entire Order. That was reaaaaal hilarious.

:smallwink:

Very different situation. Nobody specifically told him not to touch it. Therefore Celia wins the special olympics here.

[The Blackbird]

She's also Roy's girlfriend, in terms of your thread she's Elan's Haley.

[[TS] Shadow]

Yeah man, totally. Hey, you know what else was really funny? When Elan pressed that clearly marked self-destruct rune in the Dungeons of Dorukan and nearly killed the entire Order. That was reaaaaal hilarious.

:smallwink:

The thing is, that scene WAS funny. One of the laugh-out-loud moments of the strip, really. Besides, there was an exit right next to them.

[Kish]

Shadow;5806123']The thing is, that scene WAS funny. One of the laugh-out-loud moments of the strip, really.

Whereas you're certain that no one could possibly find Celia screwing Haley over funny?

Besides, there was an exit right next to them.
You mean, after they ran about frantically and searched for it?

[Lord Seth]

It's also a *massive* benefit for the population of the city. While Haley was busy mowing down people she's known since her childhood, with a smile on her face (Killing in self-defense, I understand. Being happy about it? That's seriously mentally ill.),When did she have a smile on her face because of killing them? She said that after realizing that everyone she knew was an *******, it stopped bothering her, but that's not equivalent to smiling about it or being happy. I looked through the entire fight and she never smiled because of killing someone; anytime she smiled was because of some tactical advantage she discovered, really.


she was about to throw the city into chaos, exactly as the guildsman said.He's an unreliable source at best that was only trying to guilt Haley into accepting the deal, and Haley even gives some skepticism regarding that. Plus he never said the city was going into chaos, just the Thieves' Guild would.

EDIT: Seriously? SERIOUSLY? A word that was used IN THE STRIP is censored out of the forums? (it's the word Haley uses in the final panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html))

[theMycon]

When did she have a smile on her face because of killing them? She said that after realizing that everyone she knew was an *******, it stopped bothering her, but that's not equivalent to smiling about it or being happy. I looked through the entire fight and she never smiled because of killing someone; anytime she smiled was because of some tactical advantage she discovered, really.

While you are technically correct, in that her mouth was a large, round opening while she shouting the names of her attacks, I have a feeling you're perfectly aware how far you're reaching with this. Any reasonable interpretation of what she's saying, how she's acting, related smiles at being able to kill them easier, and saying she "wants more bloodshed" (comic 619) would conclude that she was happy with it. And her being pissed off that other people's "reclaimed" money is being used to revive the people she killed, even after they're done trying to kill her, shows she didn't have any remorse about it later on.



He's an unreliable source at best that was only trying to guilt Haley into accepting the deal, and Haley even gives some skepticism regarding that. Plus he never said the city was going into chaos, just the Thieves' Guild would.
Did you read the following panel? It's even in the same strip.

[Lord Seth]

and saying she "wants more bloodshed" (comic 619) would conclude that she was happy with it.She was referring specifically to killing Bozzak, who was the one behind the entire thing. Not to mention the one who said "Come back here and die for my fleeting tactical advantage!!!" to his own employees. If Haley was saying that in reference to someone else, you might have a point, but Bozzak makes sense to me.


And her being pissed off that other people's "reclaimed" money is being used to revive the people she killed, even after they're done trying to kill her, shows she didn't have any remorse about it later on.Yeah, I know. Who wouldn't be annoyed about having to foot the bill for resurrecting people who were trying to kill you less than an half an hour ago?


Did you read the following panel? It's even in the same strip.Did you read the last panel? It's even in the same strip. That's where Haley expresses skepticism for Hank's claim.

[theMycon]

She was referring specifically to killing Bozzak, who was the one behind the entire thing. Not to mention the one who said "Come back here and die for my fleeting tactical advantage!!!" to his own employees. If Haley was saying that in reference to someone else, you might have a point, but Bozzak makes sense to me.
This point is only arguable when you ignore the rest of my comment. And even then, it's laughable.



Did you read the last panel? It's even in the same strip. That's where Haley expresses skepticism for Hank's claim.
Why yes, I did. I considered it so obvious that she was referring to the "video-gamey" comment that I figured you either had to be referencing something else, or you'd abandon this point in shame.

[Lord Seth]

This point is only arguable when you ignore the rest of my comment. And even then, it's laughable.How is it laughable? If you're going to say my point is so weak it's "laughable", it would be nice if you, y'know, said why.

Ironically, you complain about me not responding to part of the rest of your comment, when you yourself concentrated only on the part where I mentioned smiling, while ignoring what I said just before there about how Haley stopped caring about knowing them before when she remembered they were all complete jerks anyway. I'm beginning to wonder what your entire point is with this, actually.


Why yes, I did. I considered it so obvious that she was referring to the "video-gamey" comment that I figured you either had to be referencing something else, or you'd abandon this point in shame.Huh? No, I thought it was pretty obvious she was referring to the "MOBs" line, not the "video-gamey" part. (or rather, she was referring to both)

[Ghastly Epigram]

Very different situation. Nobody specifically told him not to touch it.

Castle Self-Destruct
(Do Not Touch Ever.)
(No, Not Even Then.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html)

Honestly, that argument is just being silly. :smallwink:

I have no problem with people finding that funny and things Celia did NOT funny (I myself enjoyed both). But I think saying the two are completely different and one gets let off because you* personally enjoyed it is a little...odd. It is very easy to find oneself rationalizing the things we like and damning the things we do not and painting it all as objective. But sometimes it really is just different strokes for different folks. :smallsmile:

*You not referring to anyone specifically.

[Wikimaster]

i think she shares more of a purpose with miko than anyone else. and i wouldn't be surprised in the least if that was the giant's plan.

One Deliberate Scrappy is enough. We <i>don't</i> need another one. Let's just put Comic 619 in the Discontinuity pit and call it a day, okay?

[Raging Gene Ray]

i think she shares more of a purpose with miko than anyone else.

Actually, that sounds more like Haley. You see...

(Spoiler'd for speculation)
Haley's annoyance with Celia will continue to grow. Then a series of coincidental events will come together to turn her annoyance into suspicion and finally into killing Celia.

Haley is Miko to Celia's Shojo who is Haley to Roy's Elan who is Therkla to Samantha's Haley who is a Polymorphed Kevin Bacon.

Haley will then somehow descend into madness and die. Elan gets his happy ending when Sabine redeems herself, shapeshifts into Haley, and replaces her as Elan's love in order to live a normal life. Elan doesn't find out that Haley is actually dead and he married Sabine until he meets Haley in the afterlife some eighty years later.

Also, Ghastly Epigram, I share your sentiments.


Whereas you're certain that no one could possibly find Celia screwing Haley over funny?


You mean after they kiss and make up in the Thieves' Guild's showers?

[Silverlocke980]

The real reason, beyond all the theorizing, beyond all the rationalizing, the simple truth is this: we hate Celia because she is self-righteous in the extreme. We all know someone like Celia, a naive nobody with an overdeveloped sense of self-righteousness that extends itself into all her dealings with the rest of us, who live in the "real world" and wonder where she's keeping her mind at most of the time.

In our world, it's usually religious, but can also be from just about any source, as Celia nobly demonstrates. Celia bothers us because she is that person in the back of the room who no one likes because she always has "the answers", because her particular viewpoint is "always correct", and because she is totally impervious to things like common sense and simply listening to other people.

I'm going to call it like I see it here. Rich made a huge deal out of Miko, because unlike every other villain in the story, Miko was a real villain. We can see someone like Miko existing. All villains in real-life history have thought more like Miko than like Xykon- no one was ever evil just to say they were evil. They had reasons for it. Genghis Khan was looking for resources that his dessicated homeland didn't, suffering a drought as it was at the time. Hitler killed the Jews because he believed them inferior. Stalin purged millions from his army, his government, and his country to secure his position and make ready for those who would be true to the Party. Villains who are Evil for Evil's sake are only in comic books, movies, video games.

Celia is going to be the next Big Bad. Celia will become a villain. Celia is what happens when people with blinders on run into the real world. They either change, and grow out of it, or try to change the world to better fit their one-sided views.

If she isn't going to do something like this, or something equally impressive, than it's a failure on Rich's part. I know it's bad form to say things like that, but I think that, if Rich isn't planning something with Celia but has made her a character like this with intent that we sympathize, than it's simply a failure on Rich's part to write a better character and do a better job.

Considering that he's got six hundred and thirty-three (as of this writing) pages of excellent, excellent work behind him, though, I seriously doubt this is the case. Rich is one of the few authors who knows what the hell to do with female characters, rather than just making them sex objects or giving them simple, misguided, cliched subplots.

For my part? I'm looking forward to the future with great glee.

[Optimystik]

Castle Self-Destruct
(Do Not Touch Ever.)
(No, Not Even Then.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html)

It's still different. You're basically saying that a sign on a wall (in a trap-infested dungeon, no less) is just as trustworthy as a knowledgeable friend and traveling companion.

And while we're deploring their respective reading skills, didn't anyone teach Celia not to hand over the goods before she's done going through the contract?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Celia is going to be the next Big Bad. Celia will become a villain...

That's exactly the kind of thinking that will drive Haley to madness and transform her into V to Celia's Durkon after V becomes Belkar to the Snarl's Ninja Waitress.


if Rich isn't planning something with Celia but has made her a character like this with intent that we sympathize...

Can't he do both?

[tcrudisi]

The real reason, beyond all the theorizing, beyond all the rationalizing, the simple truth is this: we hate Celia because she is self-righteous in the extreme. We all know someone like Celia, a naive nobody with an overdeveloped sense of self-righteousness that extends itself into all her dealings with the rest of us, who live in the "real world" and wonder where she's keeping her mind at most of the time.

In our world, it's usually religious, but can also be from just about any source, as Celia nobly demonstrates. Celia bothers us because she is that person in the back of the room who no one likes because she always has "the answers", because her particular viewpoint is "always correct", and because she is totally impervious to things like common sense and simply listening to other people.

Quoted for truth. I was thinking about why I love Elan, even though he's done some screw-ups, but yet I hate Celia. Are one's screw-ups worse than the others? I think so, but an argument can be made both ways, as we are seeing in this thread.

So why do I love Elan but hate Celia? Well, it's because of their personalities. Think about your friends. Do you have a silly friend and a serious friend? If your silly friend did something stupid, you chalk it up to them being silly. You will probably laugh about it. But what about the serious friend? If they do something stupid, you will likely take it more seriously. Why? Because they are serious.

[Raging Gene Ray]

If they do something stupid, you will likely take it more seriously. Why? Because they are serious.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/celiadate.gif I are serious sylph. This is serious thread.

[Wikimaster]

LoL! Maybe Celia will turn out to be possessed by Tsukiko or Sabine or something. Just my two cent's!

[shaxberd]

I think Celia is filling the role that Miko left behind, which is a character to point out the foibles related to the Lawful Good alignment. Obviously, she's not nearly as hated as Miko was, and her interference is more extremely inconvenient to the party than potentially lethal. That, along with her focus on Haley's new haircut for so long, makes her more likable in my book. But properly played, the Lawful Good character should be the annoying person in the party, the player who brings that touch of logic and realism to the game that necessitates a long and largely unnecessary sideplot that slows down the xp progression of the party and adds an hour or two to each game session in which nothing substantial is accomplished in terms of completing the adventure.

Roy is Lawful Good as well, but we hate him less because we get to see him being exasperated by the non-Lawful Good members of his party on a constant basis, which we have yet to see with Celia. I expect when and if we do start seeing that (now that Belkar's back), people will start hating her less.

[Xondoure]

Roy is Lawful Good as well, but we hate him less because we get to see him being exasperated by the non-Lawful Good members of his party on a constant basis, which we have yet to see with Celia. I expect when and if we do start seeing that (now that Belkar's back), people will start hating her less.

But now Belkar is playing to the whole character development thing so thats unlikely. What's more Roy does not block out every sensible option on the basis of morals.

[Silverraptor]

This reminds me of that one post I did about explaining Belkar's character and it looks like I'm doing it again for Celia. Starting from the beginning and the reasons Rich put her in.
*Ahem*

When Rich first put Celia in, as we all know, he was killing all three guardians off. However, He turned Celia to stone because he thought that would be something Zz'dtri would do. Later, he wanted to have the Order take care of the Linear guild without having to go back to them before the end of the dungeon and decided to use Celia to get them out of there. Later, at the trial, Rich knew he needed someone to represent the Order and probably didn't want to invent a whole new character, so he put in Celia. Later, he wanted to show that 2 people who had everything in common could start a relationship. He also wanted to make it up to Roy for the whole Miko relationship.
(Theorizing)Finally, he used Celia to get Haley out of the Cloister spell so that he can get her subplot moving. He also used her to extend Haley's subplot by turning Roy's body into a golem and give her more of a story and to get rid of Belkar's Mark of Justice. Then he wanted to put in that Celia is like all of us, the readers in the case of morals and guide lines. Not killing and paying back our debts is primarly why Celia made that agreement in the first place, to feel that she was able to contribute to saving their lives and others.

[Kish]

The trouble I have with your theories is that they seem to hinge on Rich improvising each strip rather than making an overarching plan.

If I were giving odds, they would go:

Rich planned for Celia to be turned back to flesh at the time he had Zz'dtri turn her into stone: Extremely likely.

Rich planned for Celia to take the defeated but surviving members of the Linear Guild to jail when she first appeared in the strip: Quite likely.

Rich planned for Celia to become a recurring character: Pretty likely.

Rich planned, from the moment Celia appeared, for her to become Roy's love interest: Could go either way.

Rich went from "Zz'dtri would turn her into stone" to "oh, hey, Celia can take away the Linear Guild" to "I'll bring back that sylph I never meant to have appear again to be their lawyer" to "I wasn't planning to have the talisman she gave Roy actually ever be used, but I'll use it now to move Haley out of Azure City" in the haphazard way you're proposing: Approximately as likely as that you'll win ten million dollars in the lottery and be stung to death by bees on the same day.

Also, I doubt very much Rich meant Celia's ethics to make her seem more approachable to most of the posters on this forum!

[Silverraptor]

The trouble I have with your theories is that they seem to hinge on Rich improvising each strip rather than making an overarching plan.

I would be very surprised if Rich hadn't planned for Celia to be turned back into flesh when he had Zz'dtri turn her into stone.

Also, I doubt very much Rich meant Celia's ethics to make her seem more approachable to most of the posters on this forum!

Everything I put before (theorizing) was what I read from Rich himself in my own words. Everything after is ofcourse my own opinion.

[Optimystik]

Everything I put before (theorizing) was what I read from Rich himself in my own words. Everything after is ofcourse my own opinion.

The part before it contains your opinion also. You don't know for a fact that Rich "didn't feel like making a new character" to represent the Order at the trial; that makes it an opinion.

[Silverraptor]

The part before it contains your opinion also. You don't know for a fact that Rich "didn't feel like making a new character" to represent the Order at the trial; that makes it an opinion.

Ok most of it wasn't my opinion. Is that better?:smallconfused:

[Kish]

Ok most of it wasn't my opinion. Is that better?:smallconfused:
That depends. Of all the assertions you make about Rich's thought processes, what there is not your opinion?

[shaxberd]

But now Belkar is playing to the whole character development thing so thats unlikely. What's more Roy does not block out every sensible option on the basis of morals.

So you don't think Belkar will slip even once? Or that he won't channel his bloodlust into other avenues that Celia will find equally objectionable? Say whoring and going on drunken binges? As for Roy not blocking out every sensible option, I don't see how Celia is doing that either. Given a viable alternative, do you really think that Roy would see killing everybody and leaving the city in chaos as a sensible option, morals or not? I'm not seeing it. The only reason they went there was to try and get Roy raised from the dead (okay, primary purpose). I don't see how you can justify letting lots of innocent bystanders die as a reasonable price to pay to bring one person back from the dead.

You know, unless you're Xykon.

[[TS] Shadow]

Castle Self-Destruct
(Do Not Touch Ever.)
(No, Not Even Then.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html)

Honestly, that argument is just being silly. :smallwink:

I have no problem with people finding that funny and things Celia did NOT funny (I myself enjoyed both). But I think saying the two are completely different and one gets let off because you* personally enjoyed it is a little...odd. It is very easy to find oneself rationalizing the things we like and damning the things we do not and painting it all as objective. But sometimes it really is just different strokes for different folks. :smallsmile:

*You not referring to anyone specifically.

If you read a few strips after the one after you just posted, you'll see that Elan does in fact know something: theatrics. No one ever dies in a self-destruct sequence. That's why it's so cliched; it's been done to death and everyone KNOWS they'll end out all right. So even if Elan knowingly pressed the self-destruct button, as opposed to accidently, he would know that they wouldn't be seriously injured.

With Celia, on the other hand, she has just proved herself to be a ditz. She's a laywer, a LAYWER, and she doesn't read a contract all the way through before giving her boyfriends body to a man she didn't trust.

I also find that her not fighting at Pete's house to be utterly ridiculous. Haley is Celia's friend, or at least aquantince, and they were fighting criminals, wife beaters, dog fighters, and murderers. That she put Haley's life in danger because of her holyier-than-thou morals is just an ***holeish thing to do. If it were a mob of innocent people, that would be one thing, but these aren't "good" people, and Celia could try to protect someone she cared for and needed.

[[TS] Shadow]

Oops, double post. My bad.

[Silverraptor]

That depends. Of all the assertions you make about Rich's thought processes, what there is not your opinion?

The "probably" part is my opinion, everything else is fact.

[Kish]

The "probably" part is my opinion, everything else is fact.
I see. No, then, it's not better.

Even where your claims resemble things Rich did actually say, I have issues with the way you rewrote them in paraphrasing. You make it sound way more haphazard than he did.

[Silverraptor]

I see. No, then, it's not better.

Even where your claims resemble things Rich did actually say, I have issues with the way you rewrote them in paraphrasing. You make it sound way more haphazard than he did.

Then I apologize. It was not my intention to make it sound that way.:smallfrown:

[Wikimaster]

With Celia, on the other hand, she has just proved herself to be a ditz. She's a laywer, a LAYWER, and she doesn't read a contract all the way through before giving her boyfriends body to a man she didn't trust.


That was unnatural. Oh, sure, her desire to get Roy back to life could have addled her judgement, but surely not to that extent.