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magic9mushroom
2009-02-20, 11:10 PM
By the text of the rules, Mystic Theurge should accept Ultimate Magus as its arcane half, since it's an arcane spellcasting class.

I dreamed up the following:

Sorcerer 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 4/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 9

Which with Theurgic Specialist and Practised Spellcaster gets a CL of 60 in one school and 27 in the others. With a few Orange Prism Ioun Stones they can in fact beat the Word's caster level.

What's weird about this piece of cheese is that it actually makes roleplaying sense, for a Vaarsuvius-type character.

Gods help the player who in their quest to stop the power-mad mage runs into that. Especially if it's Evocation.

Frosty
2009-02-20, 11:12 PM
Ultimate magus is not a spellcasting class. It advances *other* spellcasting classes.

Assassin89
2009-02-20, 11:13 PM
One Spell... Anti-magic field

Innis Cabal
2009-02-20, 11:13 PM
It only works on class's that grant a spell list, not advance it, as Frosty said

magic9mushroom
2009-02-20, 11:16 PM
Ultimate magus is not a spellcasting class. It advances *other* spellcasting classes.

Not correct by RAW.



Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you
gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and
spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level
in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous
arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding
the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other
benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

Emphasis mine.

Ultimate Magus grants the spells, they're just identical to what you would have gotten had you advanced another class.

BRC
2009-02-20, 11:17 PM
I would say it's open to interpretation, whether Advancing spell lists (What Arcane PRC's do) and what base classes do is the same thing.

Draz74
2009-02-20, 11:18 PM
Hmmm ... Bard 1 / Wizard 8 / Ultimate Magus 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Ultimate Magus 9. That one works, right? Does it end up being any more powerful than a Sorc/Wiz/UltMag?

monty
2009-02-20, 11:20 PM
Not correct by RAW.

Emphasis mine.

Ultimate Magus grants the spells, they're just identical to what you would have gotten had you advanced another class.

I can't say much except that PRESTIGE CLASSES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Isn't that like saying that you can use Mystic Theurge to advance Mystic Theurge for the arcane half, since it advances arcane spells, and Mystic Theurge for the divine half, since it advances divine spells? Oh, and then you take that Mystic Theurge on both sides of your next level, for another 8 caster levels, and then 16 the next level, and then 32 the next level, and then the DM punches you in the face because you're an idiot.

Collin152
2009-02-20, 11:20 PM
One Spell... Anti-magic field

One spell to counter your spell: Any of the many instantaneous conjurations.
Or, really, sitting down with the massive number of spell slots, using Wall spells and such to keep you from escaping (and it's not like you can use magic), wait for the spell to end, then gank you with the magic of your choice.
Anti-magic field is not as useful as people think. Especially considering you need to be a spellcaster to cast it anyways; you cripple yourself just to put it up.

Innis Cabal
2009-02-20, 11:21 PM
Not correct by RAW.



Emphasis mine.

Ultimate Magus grants the spells, they're just identical to what you would have gotten had you advanced another class.

It advances a spellcasting class that you had prior to gaining the UM. Thats why it says you back to pick which Arcane Class's it advances. Where as there are class's that grant spellcasting for joining the PrC. UM does not do this what so ever. It simply acts like you gained a level in the class you were before without the benifits. By RAW.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-20, 11:24 PM
I can't say much except that PRESTIGE CLASSES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Isn't that like saying that you can use Mystic Theurge to advance Mystic Theurge for the arcane half, since it advances arcane spells, and Mystic Theurge for the divine half, since it advances divine spells? Oh, and then you take that Mystic Theurge on both sides of your next level, for another 8 caster levels, and then 16 the next level, and then 32 the next level, and then the DM punches you in the face because you're an idiot.

No, because Mystic Theurge specifically states that you have to have had the class before you took your first level of Mystic Theurge, besides which Mystic Theurge isn't entirely arcane.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-20, 11:27 PM
It advances a spellcasting class that you had prior to gaining the UM. Thats why it says you back to pick which Arcane Class's it advances. Where as there are class's that grant spellcasting for joining the PrC. UM does not do this what so ever. It simply acts like you gained a level in the class you were before without the benifits. By RAW.

No.

It says, as I quoted, that you gain spells and caster level as if you had advanced a level in them. You don't actually advance a level in them. Ultimate Magus grants the spells, you choose what class it mimics. Therefore, it is a spellcasting class, as it grants spells, and it is therefore obviously an arcane spellcasting class, which are the written prerequisites to be mimiced in turn by the arcane half of Mystic Theurge.

Flickerdart
2009-02-20, 11:29 PM
Wait, so...how broken is Bard/Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge advancing Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord?

Frosty
2009-02-20, 11:29 PM
This loophole doesn't work. Trust us.

As for Anti-magic Field, you really only really wnat to use it with an Arcane Archer or a Abjurer/Master Specialist/Archmage because he can fire AMFs up to 30ft as a ranged touched attack 3 times a day.

Frosty
2009-02-20, 11:31 PM
Wait, so...how broken is Bard/Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge advancing Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord?

Not that broken, and has been done before. Requires you to be evil and you'll have a hell of a time rping the character. Also requires you to a Savage Bard so you'll qualify for Ur-Priest early enough.

AgentPaper
2009-02-20, 11:31 PM
Doesn't work, because prestige classes give their spells through a class feature. You don't get class features with mystic theurge. Note that the base classes' spellcasting feature is call "spells" while the prestige classes always say something else, like "spells per day" or "spells per day/known". Thus, they are different features, and you only get the spellcasting feature. (which is named "spells")

Draz74
2009-02-20, 11:32 PM
Wait, so...how broken is Bard/Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge advancing Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord?

Oh, that one's pretty well-established cheese. Make it a Savage Bard for easier Ur-Priest entry.


and then the DM punches you in the face because you're an idiot.

That DM took three levels longer than would any intelligent person I know. Slowpoke. :smallwink:

Nohwl
2009-02-20, 11:36 PM
No.

It says, as I quoted, that you gain spells and caster level as if you had advanced a level in them. You don't actually advance a level in them. Ultimate Magus grants the spells, you choose what class it mimics. Therefore, it is a spellcasting class, as it grants spells, and it is therefore obviously an arcane spellcasting class, which are the written prerequisites to be mimiced in turn by the arcane half of Mystic Theurge.

you need a defined spell list for the class to qualify for mystic theurge. ultimate magus just gives progression of an existing list, so the prestige class doesnt have a spell list and doesnt qualify for mystic theurge to advance.

Innis Cabal
2009-02-20, 11:39 PM
No.

It says, as I quoted, that you gain spells and caster level as if you had advanced a level in them (Them being the class you were -before- you were a UM). You don't actually advance a level in them. Ultimate Magus grants the spells, you choose what class it mimics. Therefore, it is a spellcasting class, as it grants spells, and it is therefore obviously an arcane spellcasting class, which are the written prerequisites to be mimiced in turn by the arcane half of Mystic Theurge.

Yes. As if you had advanced a level in them. But you didn't. You advance a level in the UM. But its not a spell casting class. Does it grant spellcasting to non-spellcasters? No, it dosn't. You need to cast to enter into it.

Frosty has said it, and i'll say it. It does not work the way your thinking. At all, even by RAW. It never has and it never will.

Again. It is not a spellcasting class. I added in why exactly it dosn't work as you've quoted.

Narmoth
2009-02-21, 09:29 AM
I would allow it. Then again, I might not allow Mystic Theurge if there were other priest and mages in the group

Advocate
2009-02-21, 11:01 AM
If they went through all that trouble to make some super character, and then chose to focus on Evocation of all things they should be punched in the face by the DM, players, and random non gamer friends in a massive Humiliation Conga. Not for having a CL of 60, but for wasting a CL of 60 on the worst thing a caster could possibly be doing, and that stops giving benefits around CL 25 anyways.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 11:31 AM
If they went through all that trouble to make some super character, and then chose to focus on Evocation of all things they should be punched in the face by the DM, players, and random non gamer friends in a massive Humiliation Conga. Not for having a CL of 60, but for wasting a CL of 60 on the worst thing a caster could possibly be doing, and that stops giving benefits around CL 25 anyways.

Now here I can categorically state that you are wrong.

In most cases, yes, Evocation fails. But in this case it doesn't, for one reason.

Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos.

With CL 60, you can instagib ANY 50 HD or less creature that isn't [insert alignment]. No save, and SR 62 isn't likely to come by very often.

And that's without Orange Ioun Stones. Add 10 of those and you can instagib gods.

A recommended feat for this would be Ordered Chaos, because it gives you a fake chaotic alignment. Quickened Haste, Dictum, Word of Chaos. Everything's dead.

RTGoodman
2009-02-21, 11:50 AM
And that's without Orange Ioun Stones. Add 10 of those and you can instagib gods.

I'm pretty sure unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack. Now, you might claim that they're "different sources" since you've got ten of them, but that reeks of stinky cheese and munchkinism.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 11:57 AM
Now here I can categorically state that you are wrong.

In most cases, yes, Evocation fails. But in this case it doesn't, for one reason.

Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos.

With CL 60, you can instagib ANY 50 HD or less creature that isn't [insert alignment]. No save, and SR 62 isn't likely to come by very often.

And that's without Orange Ioun Stones. Add 10 of those and you can instagib gods.

A recommended feat for this would be Ordered Chaos, because it gives you a fake chaotic alignment. Quickened Haste, Dictum, Word of Chaos. Everything's dead.

In which case you burned it all on something anyone with UMD could do far better. Boost your skill up so that you can hit DC 81 (not hard at all, it's a skill) and you're better than that entire build. You still have whatever else for other stuff.

Also, this is a 3.5 thread. Haste does not allow you to cast extra spells. You would need Shapechange [Choker]. Celerity, or similar to do that in one round.

Did I mention that for all the effect a high CL spell of that kind has, it can be completely negated by Silence of all things?

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-21, 12:00 PM
A recommended feat for this would be Ordered Chaos, because it gives you a fake chaotic alignment. Quickened Haste, Dictum, Word of Chaos. Everything's dead.

I think you're playing 3.0, 'cause Haste doesn't work that way anymore.

Further, any god is immune to death effects.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 12:23 PM
I think you're playing 3.0, 'cause Haste doesn't work that way anymore.

Further, any god is immune to death effects.

Any god... and just about every self respecting character at the time 7th level spells come online. Though it doesn't actually have the Death tag.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 12:40 PM
Whoops, mustn't have noticed that about Haste.

The Blasphemy line aren't death effects. They just kill the target.

@Advocate: I presume you're referring to using a scroll with UMD. Let me ask you this: Where is the scroll of Blasphemy at CL 61 going to come from? Gods are hard-pressed to get that sort of CL. And anyone who can is likely to be both hard to identify as such (Ur-priests being secretive) and very unlikely to give it to you.

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 12:53 PM
gods probably have spell resistance, which would stop blasphemy from working.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 01:03 PM
gods probably have spell resistance, which would stop blasphemy from working.

Not enough. Gods have SR 32 + divine rank. For a monotheistic God that's SR 52. Even on a roll of 1 this guy will beat that easily.

The only god with enough divine ranks to do it that I've heard of is Pun-Pun himself.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 01:32 PM
Wait, so...how broken is Bard/Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge advancing Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord?
The trick to judging that is to keep track of your power curves.

The "standard" Sublime Ur-Theurge is a CE Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Savage Bard)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-X (Sublime Chord), and is really only broken (at least, in comparison to the Core Full Casters) in the 14-16 level range, and that only due to faster spell access (which can be done faster by a "pure" Ur-Priest - a Fighter-1/Bard-4/Ur-Priest-10 is overpowered in the 12-16 range, but unless the Ur-Priest pulls off particular tricks with, say, stealing a particular spell-like ability of an Efreeti, said Ur-Priest is overshadowed once a regular Cleric gets 9th level spells at 17th).

See, at 20th, it's not particularly broken compared to a Wizard-20 due to the Wizard-20 having better endurance with the high-end spell slots (neither Sublime Chord nor Ur-Priest have particularly grand spells per day - the Wizard-20 will have more base 9th level spell slots, and has a much better chance of having more bonus 9th level spell slots due to the single casting stat vs. the two primary casting stats). At 11th (Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1), the Sublime Ur-Theurge has access to 5th level Arcane and 5th level Divine spells, while the Wizard has access to 6th level Arcane, and the Cleric has access to 6th level Divine ... and both Wizard and Cleric have more 5th level spell slots available than does the Sublime Ur-Theurge. At 12th, the Sublime Ur-Theurge has 6th level Divine (Ur-Priest 6) and 5th level Arcane (Sublime Chord-2) - he's starting to tie a pure caster in spell access. Likewise at 13th, the Sublime Ur-Theurge has 6th level Arcane and 7th level Divine - with the pure Wizard having 7th level Arcane and the pure Cleric having 7th level Divine spells ... and both Wizard and Cleric having more bonus spell slots. It's only when the Sublime Ur-Theurge hits 14th (8th level spells, assuming a Wisdom modifier sufficient to give the Sublime Ur-Theurge bonus 8th level spell slots, which is not a given at 14th) that the Sublime Ur-Theurge outraces the Cleric or Wizard in spell access (Cleric and Wizard have 7th level spells, Sublime Ur-Theurge has 8th). In a 20th level game, the Sublime Ur-Theurge is viable, but isn't over the top compared to the other Full Casters. In a 14th level game, yeah, the Sublime Ur-Theurge is over the top... for three class levels (14th, 15th, and 16th), and tied at 13th and 17th+.

Meanwhile assuming a "pure" Ur-Priest has sufficient Wisdom to have the a bonus spell slot at that spell level, the Fighter-1/Bard-4/Ur-Priest-X has 9th level spell access at 14th (when the Wizard and Cleric are using 7th level spells), 8th level spells at 13th (Wiz/Cleric having 7th level spells), 7th level spell access at 12th (Wiz/Cleric having 6th level spells), and is tied with the pure casters at 11th character level with 6th level spell access. The Pure Ur-Priest is over the top for character levels 12-16 (five total levels), tied at 11th and 17th, and falls behind at 18th+ (unless the "Pure" Ur-Priest uses the Capstone, Steal Spell-Like ability on an Efreeti to get three no-XP wishes per day or some such - which the "pure" Ur-Priest can do at 15th).

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 02:27 PM
The trick to judging that is to keep track of your power curves.

The "standard" Sublime Ur-Theurge is a CE Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Savage Bard)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-X (Sublime Chord), and is really only broken (at least, in comparison to the Core Full Casters) in the 14-16 level range, and that only due to faster spell access (which can be done faster by a "pure" Ur-Priest - a Fighter-1/Bard-4/Ur-Priest-10 is overpowered in the 12-16 range, but unless the Ur-Priest pulls off particular tricks with, say, stealing a particular spell-like ability of an Efreeti, said Ur-Priest is overshadowed once a regular Cleric gets 9th level spells at 17th).

See, at 20th, it's not particularly broken compared to a Wizard-20 due to the Wizard-20 having better endurance with the high-end spell slots (neither Sublime Chord nor Ur-Priest have particularly grand spells per day - the Wizard-20 will have more base 9th level spell slots, and has a much better chance of having more bonus 9th level spell slots due to the single casting stat vs. the two primary casting stats). At 11th (Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1), the Sublime Ur-Theurge has access to 5th level Arcane and 5th level Divine spells, while the Wizard has access to 6th level Arcane, and the Cleric has access to 6th level Divine ... and both Wizard and Cleric have more 5th level spell slots available than does the Sublime Ur-Theurge. At 12th, the Sublime Ur-Theurge has 6th level Divine (Ur-Priest 6) and 5th level Arcane (Sublime Chord-2) - he's starting to tie a pure caster in spell access. Likewise at 13th, the Sublime Ur-Theurge has 6th level Arcane and 7th level Divine - with the pure Wizard having 7th level Arcane and the pure Cleric having 7th level Divine spells ... and both Wizard and Cleric having more bonus spell slots. It's only when the Sublime Ur-Theurge hits 14th (8th level spells, assuming a Wisdom modifier sufficient to give the Sublime Ur-Theurge bonus 8th level spell slots, which is not a given at 14th) that the Sublime Ur-Theurge outraces the Cleric or Wizard in spell access (Cleric and Wizard have 7th level spells, Sublime Ur-Theurge has 8th). In a 20th level game, the Sublime Ur-Theurge is viable, but isn't over the top compared to the other Full Casters. In a 14th level game, yeah, the Sublime Ur-Theurge is over the top... for three class levels (14th, 15th, and 16th), and tied at 13th and 17th+.

Meanwhile assuming a "pure" Ur-Priest has sufficient Wisdom to have the a bonus spell slot at that spell level, the Fighter-1/Bard-4/Ur-Priest-X has 9th level spell access at 14th (when the Wizard and Cleric are using 7th level spells), 8th level spells at 13th (Wiz/Cleric having 7th level spells), 7th level spell access at 12th (Wiz/Cleric having 6th level spells), and is tied with the pure casters at 11th character level with 6th level spell access. The Pure Ur-Priest is over the top for character levels 12-16 (five total levels), tied at 11th and 17th, and falls behind at 18th+ (unless the "Pure" Ur-Priest uses the Capstone, Steal Spell-Like ability on an Efreeti to get three no-XP wishes per day or some such - which the "pure" Ur-Priest can do at 15th).

Wait. Mystic Theurge says "The character gains new spells/day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously." Doesn't that make the build you quoted not work because Sublime Chord was started after MT and is therefore not viable?

Advocate
2009-02-21, 02:32 PM
Whoops, mustn't have noticed that about Haste.

The Blasphemy line aren't death effects. They just kill the target.

@Advocate: I presume you're referring to using a scroll with UMD. Let me ask you this: Where is the scroll of Blasphemy at CL 61 going to come from? Gods are hard-pressed to get that sort of CL. And anyone who can is likely to be both hard to identify as such (Ur-priests being secretive) and very unlikely to give it to you.

Not a scroll. A staff. The CL of Staves when you are using UMD to activate the Staff is your check result -20. Thus, rolling an 81 gives you a CL of 61, better than this build. The staff itself doesn't need to have a CL anywhere near that point, so there is no reason not to go for the minimum of 13 as anything more is simply wasting cash. Note that this is better than what a caster could do as casters just have the staff scale to their CL, and getting a CL of 61 is significantly more difficult and resource intensive than getting a UMD check result of 81.

Off the top of my head... this Staff tactic is most often used by Artificers. Others can do it, but Artificers have the easiest time of it.

A 1st level infusion gives a circumstance bonus to one skill of your choice equal to (your CL / 2) + 2.

A 2nd level infusion can give you a +15 enhancement bonus to a skill.

Both of the above last 10 minutes per level. The first costs nothing, the second costs 50 gold. Also note the above two work on every check with that skill you make during the duration.

A 2nd level spell can give you an insight bonus to any one skill check made within the hour/level duration equal to (CL / 2) + 5, max 15.

At level 20, you have 23 ranks, and the ability to take 10 on UMD checks. You have a +12 circumstance bonus from Skill Enhancement, a +15 enhancement bonus from Armor Enhancement, and a +15 insight bonus from a Divine Insight staff (you could use wands, but the staff ends up cheaper). That's a result of 75. A Charisma of 22 will cover the rest. You could get away with lower than that and/or doing it at lower levels if you started employing less efficient means of boosting UMD like burning feats on it. Or you could just use CL buffs. Either way.

Cast the three effects in the morning. Enter a fight. Activate Divine Insight as an Immediate action. Do your super nuke. Win.

Recast Divine Insight from staff. Repeat Ad Nauseum.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 03:01 PM
Not a scroll. A staff. The CL of Staves when you are using UMD to activate the Staff is your check result -20. Thus, rolling an 81 gives you a CL of 61, better than this build. The staff itself doesn't need to have a CL anywhere near that point, so there is no reason not to go for the minimum of 13 as anything more is simply wasting cash. Note that this is better than what a caster could do as casters just have the staff scale to their CL, and getting a CL of 61 is significantly more difficult and resource intensive than getting a UMD check result of 81.

Off the top of my head... this Staff tactic is most often used by Artificers. Others can do it, but Artificers have the easiest time of it.

A 1st level infusion gives a circumstance bonus to one skill of your choice equal to (your CL / 2) + 2.

A 2nd level infusion can give you a +15 enhancement bonus to a skill.

Both of the above last 10 minutes per level. The first costs nothing, the second costs 50 gold. Also note the above two work on every check with that skill you make during the duration.

A 2nd level spell can give you an insight bonus to any one skill check made within the hour/level duration equal to (CL / 2) + 5, max 15.

At level 20, you have 23 ranks, and the ability to take 10 on UMD checks. You have a +12 circumstance bonus from Skill Enhancement, a +15 enhancement bonus from Armor Enhancement, and a +15 insight bonus from a Divine Insight staff (you could use wands, but the staff ends up cheaper). That's a result of 75. A Charisma of 22 will cover the rest. You could get away with lower than that and/or doing it at lower levels if you started employing less efficient means of boosting UMD like burning feats on it. Or you could just use CL buffs. Either way.

Cast the three effects in the morning. Enter a fight. Activate Divine Insight as an Immediate action. Do your super nuke. Win.

Recast Divine Insight from staff. Repeat Ad Nauseum.

Since when can UMD allow you to emulate a caster level?

Innis Cabal
2009-02-21, 03:08 PM
You can't take 10 with the UMD skill. Ever, its in the text for it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm)

You may still have a high skill rank in it with all the cheese, but there are alot better ways of going about what your attempting to do, so its just alot of effort for the effect a Wizard could produce in less time.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 03:17 PM
Wait. Mystic Theurge says "The character gains new spells/day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously." Doesn't that make the build you quoted not work because Sublime Chord was started after MT and is therefore not viable?
If you want to be that precise, yes - it looks like there's some variation in the specific text between individual PrC's. Archmage, for instance, uses "before he added the prestige class level".

Still, though, you can get comperable effects with a Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 03:19 PM
You can't take 10 with the UMD skill. Ever, its in the text for it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm)

You may still have a high skill rank in it with all the cheese, but there are alot better ways of going about what your attempting to do, so its just alot of effort for the effect a Wizard could produce in less time.

I'm fairly sure Artificer can take 10 on UMD checks as a class ability. Not sure though.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 03:21 PM
If you want to be that precise, yes - it looks like there's some variation in the specific text between individual PrC's. Archmage, for instance, uses "before he added the prestige class level".

Still, though, you can get comperable effects with a Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4.

No arguments there. I have a tendency to overzealously point out any error I see, though. Nothing personal.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 03:24 PM
You can't take 10 with the UMD skill. Ever, its in the text for it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm)

You may still have a high skill rank in it with all the cheese, but there are alot better ways of going about what your attempting to do, so its just alot of effort for the effect a Wizard could produce in less time.


At level 20, you have 23 ranks, and the ability to take 10 on UMD checks.

Level 13+ Artificers get Skill Mastery: Spellcraft and UMD. This is the least resource intensive means of doing so. Instead of some super convoluted build, just burn a few trivial resources, get a Staff, and have fun.

As for the first question, the answer is since always.


Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

You activate the Staff, and choose to emulate 'Cleric Spellcasting'. You roll an 81, thus your effective level in the emulated class is 61. You are a Cleric 61 for the purposes of using the staff. As staves use their own CL, or yours, whichever is better the resulting spell from the staff has a CL of 61.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 04:36 PM
Level 13+ Artificers get Skill Mastery: Spellcraft and UMD. This is the least resource intensive means of doing so. Instead of some super convoluted build, just burn a few trivial resources, get a Staff, and have fun.

As for the first question, the answer is since always.



You activate the Staff, and choose to emulate 'Cleric Spellcasting'. You roll an 81, thus your effective level in the emulated class is 61. You are a Cleric 61 for the purposes of using the staff. As staves use their own CL, or yours, whichever is better the resulting spell from the staff has a CL of 61.

Firstly, you are a cleric 61 for the purposes of *activating* the staff. If there was a staff that you had to be a cleric 61 to activate, you could activate it. The effect of the staff, including what the CL is, is separate, and hence you can only use your real CL, which is not 61.

Secondly, even if you could emulate a cleric 61 for the purposes of CL, you would only get CL 20 since you aren't an epic character and hence can't be an epic cleric.

Keld Denar
2009-02-21, 05:05 PM
As mentioned...staffs use your CL, or the CL of the staff, whichever is greater. Since you are emulating a cleric with a CL of 61, the staff casts as either CL13 or CL61, and since 61 is greater than 13, it would use 61. This part is correct.

And as far as having a CL greater than 20, this isn't hard. Being a level 20 character with an Orange IWIN Stone gives you a CL of 21. You aren't epic, you just use 21 with respect to effect, duration, range, etc. Its the reason most 8+ level spells have a range of CLd6/level to a max of 25, because a CL of 25 is easily reachable. Heck, an Archmage can get CL 21+ with the Spellpower High Arcana, and a Cleric with the Good domain can get it too, without using any items.

AgentPaper
2009-02-21, 05:08 PM
Firstly, you are a cleric 61 for the purposes of *activating* the staff. If there was a staff that you had to be a cleric 61 to activate, you could activate it. The effect of the staff, including what the CL is, is separate, and hence you can only use your real CL, which is not 61.

Secondly, even if you could emulate a cleric 61 for the purposes of CL, you would only get CL 20 since you aren't an epic character and hence can't be an epic cleric.

First, the staff uses the CL of the person who activates it, so if you have an effective CL of 61 for activating it, that means the spell works as if it were cast by a level 61 cleric.

Second, this logic doesn't work at all. If you can't cast spells as if you were CL higher than 20 with UMD, how would CL boosting items, abilities, and cheese work? You're not an epic cleric, you just cast like one.

monty
2009-02-21, 05:10 PM
Secondly, even if you could emulate a cleric 61 for the purposes of CL, you would only get CL 20 since you aren't an epic character and hence can't be an epic cleric.

Where does it say that CL caps at 20 for non-epic characters?

Flickerdart
2009-02-21, 05:13 PM
Where does it say that CL caps at 20 for non-epic characters?
I'm quite certain that it says that nowhere at all. A level 20 Wizard with an Orange Ioun Stone has a caster level of 21, even though he is not a 21st level caster.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 06:54 PM
About the 20 CL thing:

He's emulating a lvl 61 cleric. Which is an epic cleric. But he isn't an epic character, so he couldn't get the CL progression of the epic cleric, because it's an epic class. I think.

And the UMD stuff smells to me. Basically, all the UMD stuff says is that you can emulate a class feature for the purposes of getting the item to activate, with a successful UMD check. Cleric level 61 isn't necessary to activate the item, so he can't make a check to emulate it, and even if he went and made a staff that could only be used by a level 61 cleric, he'd STILL only be emulating it for the purpose of getting the item to activate at all. It even says, you DON'T HAVE the features that you're emulating, you're just faking it to the item. Caster level for staffs comes from the user, not the staff, so making the staff think you're a 61st level caster won't help.

AgentPaper
2009-02-21, 07:18 PM
About the 20 CL thing:

He's emulating a lvl 61 cleric. Which is an epic cleric. But he isn't an epic character, so he couldn't get the CL progression of the epic cleric, because it's an epic class. I think.

And the UMD stuff smells to me. Basically, all the UMD stuff says is that you can emulate a class feature for the purposes of getting the item to activate, with a successful UMD check. Cleric level 61 isn't necessary to activate the item, so he can't make a check to emulate it, and even if he went and made a staff that could only be used by a level 61 cleric, he'd STILL only be emulating it for the purpose of getting the item to activate at all. It even says, you DON'T HAVE the features that you're emulating, you're just faking it to the item. Caster level for staffs comes from the user, not the staff, so making the staff think you're a 61st level caster won't help.

That's certainly a way you could interpret the rules, but it's pretty convoluted and doesn't really make any sense. You're not tricking the staff or routing your power through it, you're just going through the motions that will make it as effective as possible. You just happen to be doing it really well, just as well as a CL 61 cleric would. All of the power comes from the staff, which is why non-magic users can use them at all. How you use that power depends on your caster level.

Important note: You are not emulating a level 61 cleric, you are emulating a CL 61 cleric. Actual character levels don't come into it, so neither does epic rules. You probably can't cast epic spells with UMD until you're 21+, but that's a different issue.

Keld Denar
2009-02-21, 08:57 PM
Spellcaster Level is not the same a Caster Level.

Spellcaster Level is what you reference when you determine your spells/day. Its generally what you gain from adding character levels in a spellcasting class. This is capped at level 20 pre-epic. A character with a Spellcaster Level of 21+ is an epic character.

Caster Level is the variable quantity that determines things like Range, Effect, Number of Targets, Duration, etc. Its usually the same as your Spellcaster Level, but some things may change it. Taking the Mageslayer feat reduces your CL by 4, while using an Orange Ioun Stone increases it by 1. You don't gain or lose any spells per day, but the spells you do cast are stronger/weaker than a spellcaster who doesn't have it. A character with a Caster Level of 21+ is still probably a level <20 character, just using one or more tricks to increase his or her CL. There are lots of ways to do it, from using a Bead of Karma, to selecting certain domains, to items like Ring of Arcane Might or Orange IWIN Stones, to spells like True Casting or Consumptive Field.

Hope this makes sense to you. The UMD check isn't emulating a character with a Spellcaster Level of 61, its emulating a character with a Caster Level of 61. Big difference.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-02-21, 09:17 PM
UMD;

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

STAFFS;

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

So no, you can't use your UMD-emulated CL to replace your own CL when activating the staff. You can just activate the staff.

AgentPaper
2009-02-21, 09:19 PM
UMD;


STAFFS;


So no, you can't use your UMD-emulated CL to replace your own CL when activating the staff. You can just activate the staff.

Hum? I don't see how your logic works here. You can't use their class features, sure. Using a staff is not a class feature though.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 09:27 PM
That's certainly a way you could interpret the rules, but it's pretty convoluted and doesn't really make any sense. You're not tricking the staff or routing your power through it, you're just going through the motions that will make it as effective as possible. You just happen to be doing it really well, just as well as a CL 61 cleric would. All of the power comes from the staff, which is why non-magic users can use them at all. How you use that power depends on your caster level.

Important note: You are not emulating a level 61 cleric, you are emulating a CL 61 cleric. Actual character levels don't come into it, so neither does epic rules. You probably can't cast epic spells with UMD until you're 21+, but that's a different issue.

Incorrect. The UMD skill description states "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20". That means that your second paragraph is just wrong.

As to your first...

UMD says that you are emulating requirements to activate an item. Caster level for a staff is not a requirement to activate an item. It changes the degree of the effect once you succeed at activating the item. End of story.

AgentPaper
2009-02-21, 09:58 PM
Incorrect. The UMD skill description states "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20". That means that your second paragraph is just wrong.

As to your first...

UMD says that you are emulating requirements to activate an item. Caster level for a staff is not a requirement to activate an item. It changes the degree of the effect once you succeed at activating the item. End of story.

Effective level for the class feature you're emulating. Say you're activating a staff of magic missile. You need arcane spellcasting to use that. So you're emulating arcane spellcasting. You roll a 34, which means you're emulating the spellcasting ability of a level 14 arcane caster. The exact excerpt is, "...lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." So you're activating a staff as if you had level 14 arcane casting. Which means that spell was cast with a CL of 14. It's pretty clear, and I don't know why you're trying to muddle things up like this.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 11:07 PM
I'm standing by my point because your point isn't supported by the rules as written (there's no mention of caster level in the entire description of the skill, and it outright says that you don't actually have the abilities) and is obviously not rules as intended, because one skill plus a relatively cheap item should not be capable of instagibbing everything.

AgentPaper
2009-02-21, 11:35 PM
Caster level doesn't need to be mentioned. You're emulating the spellcasting class feature of whatever class you need for this spell. Part of that class feature you're emulating includes caster level, which is equal to your class level in that spellcasting class, which happens to be equal to your result minus 20. How is this not RAW? Just because you don't like how the system works doesn't change RAW. I don't really care for it much either, but as long as players don't go out of their way to abuse it, it's not so bad. (which is pretty much the story for most of 3.5, it seems. :smalltongue:)

mohdri
2009-02-22, 03:48 AM
If I personally were going to adjudicat this, I would just use the text under "Use Wand", that says you would use the skill this way to activate "other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs". No caster level bonus from UMD, it just triggers the staff using it's own caster level, as if the spell was on your class list.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-22, 03:59 AM
Caster level doesn't need to be mentioned. You're emulating the spellcasting class feature of whatever class you need for this spell. Part of that class feature you're emulating includes caster level, which is equal to your class level in that spellcasting class, which happens to be equal to your result minus 20. How is this not RAW? Just because you don't like how the system works doesn't change RAW. I don't really care for it much either, but as long as players don't go out of their way to abuse it, it's not so bad. (which is pretty much the story for most of 3.5, it seems. :smalltongue:)

Again, that would require you to have the actual class feature, because you're not mimicing something for the purposes of what the item does, you're mimicking something for the purpose of the item's effect. Small difference.

IE, you activate it as if you had CL 61, it comes on line as you want it to, and then the effect is scaled according to your real caster level.

Otherwise, if you rule your way, you're giving UMDers a 20-25 CL advantage over the actual casters, which is just plain ridiculous.

Justyn
2009-02-22, 04:54 AM
I'm pretty sure unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack. Now, you might claim that they're "different sources" since you've got ten of them, but that reeks of stinky cheese and munchkinism.

That would be a DM ruling, but by RAW, yes they do stack with each other. Now, if Orange Ioun stones game a +1 profane or +1 insight bonus to caster level, then they would not stack, but each ioun stone gives an unnamed +1 bonus to caster level, so if a caster were to sink 300,000 GP into 10 of those bad boys, then, by golly, the rules as written say that he gets +10 to his caster level.

Advocate
2009-02-22, 07:59 AM
By RAW, the Staffiscer does work that way. Now, I personally house rule it so that the maximum emulated caster level is your own caster level, or character level for the non casters with UMD. Thus, the above Artificer 13 could emulate a CL of 13... but no higher, even if he rolled higher than a 33. At level 20, he can emulate CL 20. If the Artificer uses CL boosting items he can get higher as normal, so if he used a Karma bead and has an orange stone flying around his head he can emulate any CL up to 25 as follows:

UMD check result 19 or lower: Do not activate staff.

UMD check result 20-33: Activate staff, using its own CL of 13 as this is equal to or better than your emulated CL.

UMD check result 34-45: Activate staff, using the emulated CL of 14-25 as this is higher than the staff's CL of 13.

I also house rule Blasphemy, and the other versions like so:

Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Evil 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Nonevil creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell must make special Will save (DC = spell’s save DC - creature’s HD + your caster level + 1). or suffer the following ill effects.
Save result Effect
Failed save Dazed
Failed save by 2-5 Weakened, dazed
Failed save by 6-10 Paralyzed, weakened, dazed
Failed save by 11 or more Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed

The effects are cumulative and concurrent.

Dazed

The creature can take no actions for 1 round, though it defends itself normally.
Weakened

The creature’s Strength score decreases by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds.
Paralyzed

The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.
Killed

Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (as above, but at a -4 penalty) to negate.

Dismissal mechanics used, and modified slightly to reflect the relative power effect without it being an instant and automatic kill, given a fairly small disparity. As would come up with... just about any half fiend monster, due to the HD = CL mechanic of SLAs. Thus, something as basic as using a half fiend monster doesn't give the enemy an automatic AoE instant kill effect against the party... which means you have to either ignore that ability, or hope your players throw up a Silence quickly. Between that and the staff cap rule, it's not so broken anymore. And the same applies to the other alignment versions. Just find/replace the appropriate keyword.

Note however that the above is just that. A house rule. I recommend you use it if the RAW functioning of Staffiscers bothers you, but it does not change the fact it is RAW legal.

Aquillion
2009-02-22, 08:12 AM
Level 13+ Artificers get Skill Mastery: Spellcraft and UMD. This is the least resource intensive means of doing so. Instead of some super convoluted build, just burn a few trivial resources, get a Staff, and have fun.Can't 4th level Warlocks do it, too, with Deceive Device? And I'm sure I've seen an even easier way somewhere, but I can't recall it right now...

Advocate
2009-02-22, 08:21 AM
Can't 4th level Warlocks do it, too, with Deceive Device? And I'm sure I've seen an even easier way somewhere, but I can't recall it right now...

If by 'it' you mean take 10 on UMD, yes. I forget what level they actually get that at. However a Warlock would not have access to infusions, as even UMD cannot access those due to the fact you cannot put them into Staves, Wands, etc. So he could use a Divine Insight wand, but would miss out on the circumstance and enhancement bonuses, resulting in a much lower emulated CL.

I know it is quite possible to boost skills into the stratosphere, however the Artificer method is the least resource intensive, such that any Artificer could just casually pick it up and start killing gods. I dunno about you, but deciding you want to kill gods upon waking up in the morning, and then suddenly starting to actually do it is far more epic than trying to specifically build towards that purpose for a long time, and then do it.

AgentPaper
2009-02-22, 12:09 PM
Again, that would require you to have the actual class feature, because you're not mimicing something for the purposes of what the item does, you're mimicking something for the purpose of the item's effect. Small difference.

IE, you activate it as if you had CL 61, it comes on line as you want it to, and then the effect is scaled according to your real caster level.

Otherwise, if you rule your way, you're giving UMDers a 20-25 CL advantage over the actual casters, which is just plain ridiculous.

You have the spellcasting of a level 61 cleric for the purposes of activating the device. Part of activating the device is a caster level check to see how powerful the spell cast is. I don't see why these two steps would be seperated for anything other than DM fiat.

I agree that the system is pretty screwed up, but it's mostly the fault of the skill system. That said, casting spells like this is pretty damned expensive, so an actual spellcaster will likely be far more effective over the course of a campaign.

Advocate
2009-02-22, 12:49 PM
A single Blasphemy charge (the others have the same cost) has a market value of 1,365 gold. Fairly high, granted, but seeing as that 1,365 gold will buy you an instant encounter win, likely resulting in winning many times that amount in cash...

Also, you aren't paying full price. You are a crafter, remember? The real price is 511.875 gold and 41 XP... even more easily recouped.

This is without using the infinite charge trick, which makes it completely free to spam at will.

Roderick_BR
2009-02-22, 03:48 PM
It advances a spellcasting class that you had prior to gaining the UM. Thats why it says you back to pick which Arcane Class's it advances. Where as there are class's that grant spellcasting for joining the PrC. UM does not do this what so ever. It simply acts like you gained a level in the class you were before without the benifits. By RAW.
That IS what "advancing" means. You are trading 6 for half a dozen.

Innis Cabal
2009-02-22, 03:56 PM
:smallsigh:

It does not work the way the OP thinks it does. Period. If the Sage was still around, you could get the info from him. Spellcasting progression in a PrC that does not grant you a seperate spell list can not work the way the OP wants it to

Advocate
2009-02-22, 04:56 PM
The Sage is one of those people where x people could ask him 1 question phrased in x different ways and get x drastically different, and often contradictory answers. Substitute any integer for x. Suffice it to say that at best, his call is no different from that of any random person who may or may not know anything about D&D.

Reinboom
2009-02-23, 03:52 PM
Mystic Theurge, Class Features, Spells per Day class feature

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Broken in to statements:
When (new mystic theurge level):
gain "spells per day" <as if level gained> <1> "arcane spellcasting class"
gain "spells per day" <as if level gained> <1> "divine spellcasting class"
Exception "belong to previously [gained level]"
Exception "[does not] gain any other benefit a character of that class[es] would have gained."
/Ability

This , as a class feature, is obtained, separately, at each level. Meaning, it can refer to different classes at each level as well as refer to newly obtained classes between levels of mystic theurge.

So, the argued issue here would be the shared portion of the second quote of each gained.
"spellcasting class"
That is, if this term is defined or expects to use common sense (for one way or another.)
As this hopes to be a RAW argument, (common sense is RAI), I will try to locate a definition for this terms in the rules.
The first location is in the Magic/Spells section.

Names of spellcasting classes are abbreviated as follows: bard Brd; cleric Clr; druid Drd; paladin Pal; ranger Rgr; sorcerer Sor; wizard Wiz.
Which does noninclusive to prestige classes. Of course, this only 'hints' at the definition, not defines it.
I could not find any direct definition within the SRD, or my PHB, or in the Rules Compendium (just a lot of 'hooks' to the term).

This leaves the term spellcasting class a rules-hooked term definition less, which certainly causes issues (and clearly debates such as this).

So, instead I shall offer the hooks I found and three very different possible definitions players read in to and what the effects of these hooks would mean.
The various rules hooks:

A spell’s level can vary depending on your class. Always use
the spell level applicable to your class. The relevant ability
score varies by spellcasting class.

When you try to accomplish certain tasks using magic, you
must make a caster level check. To make such a check, roll a d20
and add your caster level for the spell or effect you’re casting or
using (usually your level in the appropriate spellcasting class
plus applicable modifi ers or your Use Magic Device check result
–20). Common caster level checks include the one required to
overcome spell resistance, the dispel checks required when
using dispel magic, and the one required to activate a scroll that
contains a spell of too high a level for you to cast.
Unfortunately, the last one uses the term 'usually', so it shall be noted then ignored.


Arcane spellcasters, also known as arcanists, prepare spells in
a particular way, following specific rules. A character’s level
in an arcane spellcasting class limits the number of spells
that character can prepare and cast. Arcane spellcasters
can prepare the same spell more than once, but each
such preparation counts as one spell toward the
daily limit.
This is interesting as it uses the term spellcasting class, fronted by 'arcane', interchangeably with 'Arcane Spellcasters'.


Spellcasters who use spellbooks perform spell research
between adventures. Each time such a caster attains a new
level in the appropriate arcane spellcasting class, that spellcaster
gains spells to add to the spellbook according to the
class’s description and any restrictions from specialization.
This also uses the terms interchangeably.
It is noted that most books use these terms interchangeably.

However, in the glossary (of the PHB)...

Spellcaster: A character capable of casting spells.

Now, this provides some interesting issues and rules exceptions.

From this collaboration of definitions... the best I can work with is that...
If a character has a level of any class that provides spellcasting (spells per day), then they are a Spellcaster, and thus a spellcasting class. As such, obtaining levels of Mystic Theurge would be obtaining levels of a spellcasting class, since, it will be already defined that the character is capable of casting spells.
However, since prestige classes are defined as a class (read, 'prestige classes' entry of the DMG), and mystic theurges do not explicably define a relevant ability score, even though request by the rules, this makes a 'hole' in the rules.
By RAW, or more so, RAC (new term alert! only for this post! Rules as Computed) we would receive a data exception or fatal error and the progra... er... spellcasting process would close.

Thus, whenever you cast anything by mystic theurge advanced casting, you get a blue screen of death and you must press ctrl+alt+del on the designated caster.