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Theres
2009-02-21, 12:57 AM
one of my friends has the optimal fighter with some samurai and dwarven defender levels and he constantly foils my plans to challenge him. im thinking about making him fight a pit fiend thats been made colossal just to piss him off. and he tries to roleplay but lawful good people have a stick up their ass so any ideas to challenge him without throwing in the tarrausque.

Fortinbras
2009-02-21, 12:59 AM
Hey, now that's just mean

derfenrirwolv
2009-02-21, 01:01 AM
1) keep in mind the pc s are the heroes, they're supposed to win

2) Those class combos are usually considered weak. Who's in the rest of the party and what are you throwing at them?

3) Any monster or NPC villian that uses spells or effects that require will saves. Charm him and turn him against the party

The Minx
2009-02-21, 01:20 AM
What is his worst saving throw? Does he have a ring of feather falling? How would he do in a deathtrap scenario where Disable Device becomes essential to escape (smashing the device won't open the door)? How would he fare if dumped into the sea with all that armor? How would he fare in an Antimagic field against a powerful bruiser? How about non-combat challenges, such as solving riddles or mysteries (i.e. what are his scores like Gather Information, etc. like)?

SparkMandriller
2009-02-21, 01:24 AM
Little too obvious, I feel.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-21, 01:26 AM
He'll be screwed against anything requiring maneuverability. Hit-and-run tactics, spell-sniping, chase-scenes across a city, fighting across the roof of an ice-cave, flying creatures, and so on.

You might also consider swarms. Have one surprise the group, and head straight toward this guy, roiling over him. AC won't matter a bit, he likely won't be able to damage it, and any AoE spells will hit him. He'll have to run, else he'll take damage each round. Better if coupled with a spellcaster that summoned it.

The Minx
2009-02-21, 01:28 AM
OK, so thanks to the server being wonky, I made a quadruple post. The extra ones are deleted now. Sorries.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-02-21, 01:28 AM
Send a wizard that makes full use of his/her mobility, battlefield control, and save-or-suck spells.

Dixieboy
2009-02-21, 01:31 AM
What is his worst saving throw? This one should be obvious really
How would he do in a deathtrap scenario where Disable Device becomes essential to escape (smashing the device won't open the door)?Smashing the door will open it

How would he fare in an Antimagic field against a powerful bruiser? He has been described as "optimized" and is a multiclassed fighter/melee class with superior weapon who has taken atleast a level in a melee based prestige class... :smallannoyed:

chiasaur11
2009-02-21, 01:42 AM
Optimized...
Fighter...
Samurai and Dwarven defender levels?

Did you accidentally give him some massively overpowered gear or something?

Because that kind of build and optimized aren't the same thing. They aren't even friends. At the office party, that build and optimized sit across the room from each other and don't make eye contact. Unless years of build studies on the internet are entirely off base, in which case the man is an untrumpeted genius.

Lycanthromancer
2009-02-21, 01:52 AM
Most intelligent (and many not so intelligent) foes will see a tin-can that can't really do anything but sit there and be invulnerable, and completely ignore it. Why waste time on a lump of metal that isn't any kind of threat? Heck, he can't even really move and do anything useful.

Just move around him and go after the other party members after the first round (or less, if other enemies see that he A.) can't be touched, and B.) doesn't pose a significant threat).

Make him come to his foes, and exploit that vulnerability. Any critter worth its Intelligence score (and yes, even animals will realize the futility of attacking a piece of immobile scenery) will use his inability to move against him.

overduegalaxy
2009-02-21, 02:25 AM
Little too obvious, I feel.

I concur.

Does he have ranks in Forgery?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-02-21, 03:33 AM
one of my friends has the optimal fighter with some samurai and dwarven defender levels and he constantly foils my plans to challenge him. im thinking about making him fight a pit fiend thats been made colossal just to piss him off. and he tries to roleplay but lawful good people have a stick up their ass so any ideas to challenge him without throwing in the tarrausque.

Whoah, how bad are you at running combat?

That character literally can not be anywhere near as good as a straight single-class fighter. Are you, perchance, not following WBL and instead doling out magic items like candy? Because that would be your own fault, and the only explanation I see.

How about sending anything with ranged attacks against him, huh?

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-21, 04:51 AM
Or even better, touch attacks?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-02-21, 04:55 AM
Or even better, touch attacks?

DDs do get dodge bonuses, but yeah, you'd think most of it would be armor and shield.

AslanCross
2009-02-21, 06:34 AM
Honestly I'm wondering as to how he was able to optimize with levels in those classes. Fighter can be optimized, but Samurai and DD?

Exactly what stuff has he been doing and what have you been throwing at him?

Off the top of my head, though, I'd recommend incorporeal stuff. The 50% miss chance is annoying, and most of them use touch attacks. Shadows sap Str; wraiths sap Con. Take your pick.

Kris Strife
2009-02-21, 06:58 AM
So you're punishing a player for doing well with what is considered a terrible class combo, but you dont want to come across as unfair? I dont understand. Thats like claiming to be a vegetarian while eating a 72 oz steak wrapped in bacon.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-21, 06:59 AM
It's worrying how many people take the OP completely serious.

Yuki Akuma
2009-02-21, 07:43 AM
It's worrying how many people take the OP completely serious.

Because as we all know no DM seriously asks questions like that. Everyone plays D&D exactly the same way we talk about it on here.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-21, 08:16 AM
They're fighting some Grey Render Zombies who are guarding the Necromancer who made them. He has the feats Corpsecrafter, Hardened Flesh, and Destruction Retribution from Libris Mortis, and he created them within the area of a Desecrate spell containing an evil altar. He has also buffed each of them with Mage Armor, and he's cast Haste on them for the fight to counter their partial action drawback. The necromancer should be on a raised platform that can only be accessed by a stairway at the back of it, so anyone who wants to approach it will have quite a bit of distance to travel. Tell me what level the party is and I'll tell you what level to make him and what spells to use. If the DD goes into defensive stance the necromancer will order the zombies to step away from him and attack his allies. A few rounds into the fight several Greater Shadows will begin Spring Attacking out of the floor/walls, dealing shadow damage to whoever they can. After a few hits the tank should be over encumbered and unable to voluntarily move.


While they're resting one or more Harpy Vampires should attempt to sing them into submission. Give them Ability Focus: Captivating Song, the base creature plus template with that feat should have a DC of 20 without adding any class levels or the elite array, and remember that his racial save bonus will not apply to this. Chances are he won't be sleeping in his armor (if he is be sure to apply the appropriate penalties), chances are he'll be captivated by at least one of them, and when he approaches they'll pick him up and carry him away, still singing the whole time. He won't try to fight back, and by the time they stop singing and start sucking blood he'll be high in the air over the open sea at night, so if he does fight he'll get dropped for 20d6 damage and have no idea which way leads back to shore and will probably drown. If few/none of them get captivated and carried off, have a few dozen vampire spawn ambush them the next night, and after a few negative levels the harpies will try to sing someone away again. If the PCs are moderately high level give the harpies class levels, Paladin of Tyranny is a good choice for the save debuff, and the feat Frightful Presence can make them Shaken for another -2 to saves.


These are just a few examples of the innumerable ways to make such a limited character completely obsolete.

elliott20
2009-02-21, 08:34 AM
"optimal fighter"?

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/08/bender.jpg
DOES NOT COMPUTE.

There are so many things wrong with the OP's post I don't think I'm even gonna bother.

Narmoth
2009-02-21, 09:21 AM
one of my friends has the optimal fighter with some samurai and dwarven defender levels and he constantly foils my plans to challenge him. im thinking about making him fight a pit fiend thats been made colossal just to piss him off. and he tries to roleplay but lawful good people have a stick up their ass so any ideas to challenge him without throwing in the tarrausque.

So, what is it that you really want?
You don't like that he roleplays? You don't like that he's tried to optimize his character? Or are you challenging the group by sending 1 to n monsters, where n is the number of pc?
If you want an interesting challenge, send the players against some grey guards (from the Complete Scoundrel). They are paladins that are a different kind of lawful than the norm.

Starshade
2009-02-21, 10:47 AM
Theres:

I am shure it exist some good reason why you struggle, can you tell more about the campagin you run for the players?

One thing i can think of, is, Samurai gets a magical sword for free with the class. Is that the issue? Do your world, have few magical swords with bonuses?

Kuma Da
2009-02-21, 11:04 AM
Right. Everyone here is missing the obvious. I can't fault anyone for it, 'cause DnD encourages the idea that challenge = a high CR, but I think I might have another option.

My suggestion would not be to throw a tough combat at him. Best case scenario, he feels pretty challenged, wins, gains xp and loot, and becomes more of an unbalanced beast for you to wrangle with. Worst case: other party members get killed, he feels like he's been grudge monster'd, or he steals the spotlight from everyone else.

If you wanna challenge him, play to his weaknesses. He's an almighty warrior. Don't make your biggest threat to him a combat. Give him a tough moral call, or an emotional connection with an NPC, or a backstory related challenge.

Sure, he might be able to bisect a balor, but what if that balor is holding someone he cares about hostage?

Now, I'm not saying that you should always do your best to hit the players where they're weak. He's playing a combat class because he wants the occasional combat. But do keep in mind that some of the best roleplay and most creative thinking comes out of situations where the PCs have to overcome an obstacle they're not used to having to deal with.

Hope this helps.

elliott20
2009-02-21, 11:13 AM
we have no idea why he's doing it. We really don't. His post is not exactly comprehensive with the details.

But honestly, if he wants to challenge this guy, (read: make things REALLY hard for him) there are so many ways that he could do it against your typical warrior types that it makes me think he's just trolling.

Narmoth
2009-02-21, 11:26 AM
Right. Everyone here is missing the obvious. I can't fault anyone for it, 'cause DnD encourages the idea that challenge = a high CR, but I think I might have another option.

My suggestion would not be to throw a tough combat at him. Best case scenario, he feels pretty challenged, wins, gains xp and loot, and becomes more of an unbalanced beast for you to wrangle with. Worst case: other party members get killed, he feels like he's been grudge monster'd, or he steals the spotlight from everyone else.

Actually, that's what I proposed a few posts higher up, but it's good that you put more detail in it.

Actually, always sending in something bigger and tougher to challenge is a problem that my current Dm has as well.
We're a group on a quest (pretty railroaded one to, but that's not really an issue, as the railroad has a lot of funny and pretty stops on the way, and we are in fact free to disembark the train) to find several stolen items and return them to the king.
And the quest is hard enough, I really don't need to face more bosses with CR our lvl +3. I can take them down, as I've optimized my melee character to do 9d6 dmg on hit, but I allmost die in every encounter, and I really would prefer to roleplay more.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 11:51 AM
"optimal fighter"?

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/08/bender.jpg
DOES NOT COMPUTE.

There are so many things wrong with the OP's post I don't think I'm even gonna bother.

Best part about that is I actually named a beatstick Bender. Because he literally bends bars. Of course, since he's also a Warforged people think I'm actually stealing off a TV show, when I actually just did it to mess with the heads of those who watch too much TV.

On the off chance the OP is actually serious... Throw a level appropriate encounter at him. Any level appropriate encounter. Hell, throw something several levels lower at him. Since Pit Fiends were mentioned, this is high level. Any, and every single one of them should be able to utterly annihilate him with little to no effort. Even if they actually attack his so called strengths, which they have no reason to do. The biggest flaw with such an approach is why would they be motivated enough to care about his horrifically weak character? "Walk briskly now", indeed.

All these people suggesting ways specifically to mess with him? Pure overkill. It'd be different if he were actually relevant, but as it is now specifically setting out to pick on such a weak character is just mean, and completely unnecessary since it happens all of the time by pure accident anyways.

I agree with Elliott, in that I'm not inclined to take this thread seriously at all.

Two more things. 1: Don't use incorporeals with Spring Attack. Use incorporeals with Blind Fight. The former makes you waste three feats and constantly have to pop out of the wall, resulting in a much greater chance to run into hazards, AoOs, and whatever else. The latter only costs one feat, and lets you stay inside the wall the entire time, making use of the incorporeal ability to detect adjacent creatures to know where to attack. You will have a 25% miss chance, but you are never at any risk until you attack. Both methods mean you need ready actions to actively attack the incorporeals, however the first results in the incorporeal being out in the open against those readied actions and the second results in them still having cover against whatever you do. So clearly, using one feat and being a lot safer is better than using three and running into all sorts of nastiness, even though the wall route still means 1 in 4 attacks miss. The wall method also allows full attacks, which is relevant if someone hastes the incorporeals.

2: If he were breaking WBL and giving this guy say... 150% or 200% wealth it would explain why he is remotely relevant. Note that this is still a far cry from overpowered, which is an insurmountable goal for him. It is also possible to get that much wealth without breaking WBL via using your wealth efficiently. But that would mean he has a crafter in his pocket for some reason, and that doesn't make any sense for a build like that.

elliott20
2009-02-21, 12:03 PM
Best part about that is I actually named a beatstick Bender. Because he literally bends bars. Of course, since he's also a Warforged people think I'm actually stealing off a TV show, when I actually just did it to mess with the heads of those who watch too much TV.

On the off chance the OP is actually serious... Throw a level appropriate encounter at him. Any level appropriate encounter. Hell, throw something several levels lower at him. Since Pit Fiends were mentioned, this is high level. Any, and every single one of them should be able to utterly annihilate him with little to no effort. Even if they actually attack his so called strengths, which they have no reason to do. The biggest flaw with such an approach is why would they be motivated enough to care about his horrifically weak character? "Walk briskly now", indeed.

All these people suggesting ways specifically to mess with him? Pure overkill. It'd be different if he were actually relevant, but as it is now specifically setting out to pick on such a weak character is just mean, and completely unnecessary since it happens all of the time by pure accident anyways.

I agree with Elliott, in that I'm not inclined to take this thread seriously at all.

Two more things. 1: Don't use incorporeals with Spring Attack. Use incorporeals with Blind Fight. The former makes you waste three feats and constantly have to pop out of the wall, resulting in a much greater chance to run into hazards, AoOs, and whatever else. The latter only costs one feat, and lets you stay inside the wall the entire time, making use of the incorporeal ability to detect adjacent creatures to know where to attack. You will have a 25% miss chance, but you are never at any risk until you attack. Both methods mean you need ready actions to actively attack the incorporeals, however the first results in the incorporeal being out in the open against those readied actions and the second results in them still having cover against whatever you do. So clearly, using one feat and being a lot safer is better than using three and running into all sorts of nastiness, even though the wall route still means 1 in 4 attacks miss. The wall method also allows full attacks, which is relevant if someone hastes the incorporeals.

2: If he were breaking WBL and giving this guy say... 150% or 200% wealth it would explain why he is remotely relevant. Note that this is still a far cry from overpowered, which is an insurmountable goal for him. It is also possible to get that much wealth without breaking WBL via using your wealth efficiently. But that would mean he has a crafter in his pocket for some reason, and that doesn't make any sense for a build like that.
the only way I can think of such a character actually being overpowered is if he's using some kind of cheese tactic like say, candle of evocation. And in cases like those, the blame falls squarely on the GMs shoulders since he could have just said, "dude, wtf? put that crap away!" and moved on normally.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 12:25 PM
A Commoner could do the same Wish loop. If we actually are getting into that sort of thing, the casters wish looped at level 2. Other guys have to wait longer. So even in that nonsensical example, he's still dead weight in the party.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 12:38 PM
So you're punishing a player for doing well with what is considered a terrible class combo, but you dont want to come across as unfair? I dont understand. Thats like claiming to be a vegetarian while eating a 72 oz steak wrapped in bacon.

Now you're making me hungry. :smallbiggrin:

elliott20
2009-02-21, 12:39 PM
really? when I read that, my arteries screamed out in pain from just the idea of it.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 12:44 PM
really? when I read that, my arteries screamed out in pain from just the idea of it.

Dead serious. A non caster would need level 5 or 6, just to even have 8,400 gold + whatever equipment they use to survive that long. Then they buy their candle and start cheesing it up.

A Planar Binding scroll is 1,650 gold, thus it is far more easily obtainable. It is also obtainable sooner, as you'll have that much at level 2. Partway to level 3, granted, but level 2 nonetheless. You'll need other stuff as well, but not as much so you can easily do this before level 3.

Actually reading the scroll requires a DC 12 caster level check to do it right. You have a caster level of 2.

...

Arcane Mastery.

...

Proceed with absurd cheese.

So even when the rules get all twisted up like that, it still doesn't bode well for the beatstick.

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 12:46 PM
This is the first campaign, DM isn't running monsters intelligently, the Fighter has way more wealth than the rest of the party, no character is played intelligently. That's how it goes; I remember my first 3.X campaign too.

Intelligently playing opponents (utilizing the fact that he does mediocre damage, is slow (keep teleporting away while tossing max. range spells) and attacking him through routes other than his AC), tossing magical opponents at them, tossing a grappler at them, whatever works.


You also need to make sure your perception is correct; while he's taking hits, it's generally the other characters that deal the damage. Pay attention to who does the things that drop the opponent; maybe it's not as bad as you'd imagine.

Without the damage, he'll lose the trade of blows vs. just about anything even if his AC means opp only hits on 20 (POWER ATTACK FOR FULL), let alone against a skirmisher throwing save-targeting spells and such at him.


Note that even though he has way too much wealth for his own good, that doesn't mean he's immortal. There're still weaknesses to be used. I suggest against using monsters that destroy equipment, since those are a bit too discouraging; just moderate the maount of wealth they're gaining until they're back to WPL guidelines.

Also, the fact that you probably had all players reroll and fudge some stuff (with or without you knowing) resulting in stuff like average rolls of 16 does impact CR and should be kept in mind. If this is like so many first games, characters have insane stats, the warrior has way too much money put into his equipment (while others have too little) and monsters are being dumb.

So yea, toss about 1 point higher CR at them, play the monsters intelligently, suggest the other players to try and hold to their share of the loot, moderate loot so that they stick about to the right amount of wealth (or toss another point of CR higher opponents at them; this would lead to a Balor on level 14), and try to help the players not pick totally dumb spells and such ('cause just picking every damaging-spell in D&D is pointless; you really don't need more than 1/element even as a focused blaster (not even that with energy substitution) and the extras don't help. Have him pick useful, different spells instead).


The biggest thing though is that if you throw stronger encounters at the party, chances are the other players will suffer if they don't know what they're doing. So give the casters some spell selection tips, the warriors some feat advice and so on and the party should be around the same power level.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-21, 02:50 PM
Are we quite certain that this isn't just a very clever troll?

Flickerdart
2009-02-21, 02:52 PM
Are we quite certain that this isn't just a very clever troll?
Then he'd have gone for a Monk.

ericgrau
2009-02-21, 02:54 PM
Unless years of build studies on the internet these particular forums are entirely off base, in which case the man is an untrumpeted genius.
This. The main problem is that the OP is a "pixie in the playground". I've seen dozens of similar serious threads from people who haven't yet been exposed to internet d&d forums. Though I wouldn't call it some unique undiscovered genius, since a very large number of offline people similarily disagree with those online. Some "absolute certainties" even vary from forum to forum. Recently I was shocked to run into someone who said monks were way OP based on what everyone figured out on other forums he used to frequent a while back. I had to ask him to repeat himself to make sure I heard him right. He said it so quickly as if it were commonly known certainty. So I'd call the above "studies" and "the (entire) internet" misnomers. Those who disagree face unswayable mockery, in spite of what they have really and truly found and experienced in their own games. If you don't think so, try making a case instead of mocking anyone who happens to disagree with your community. Or better yet save it for another thread and just help the poster with his particular problem instead of disregarding it.

OP: I wouldn't try to punish the player by trying to completely overwhelm him all the time until you finally find a tactic that sticks (why every monster suddenly starts using/being it is beyond me). If he is doing well, good for him. Just try to challenge him from time to time with something new. Try disarming him, maybe grappling or tripping (though dwarfs tend to resist trips). Give him terrain where that armor check penalty screws his skill checks. Throw a baddy with magical attacks that target saves or touch AC at him (but also won't die right away from damage). Sometimes even throw in a truly rare and unique challenge that only the rogue (special trap that hinders the party intead of just dealing damage/poison/etc.) or mage (utility spell that the fighter doesn't have the magic item for) or cleric (major disease/poison/cursed item/etc.) can handle so they can shine. Do it piece by piece to force him to adapt and find work-arounds without changing his build entirely. Your goal isn't to make encounters specifically designed to work against him - as if the fates were somehow out to get him - but to keep the game interesting & challenging in plausible ways that fit into the existing game world.

Tiki Snakes
2009-02-21, 04:19 PM
So, assuming OP is genuine, problem character is a big tin-can man, with or without overpowered magic items?

If I remember my 3.5 correctly, It's a simple enough solution.

Rust Monster.

Oh, sure, I'm guessing magic items get a save or something, but even so, it should be worth the giggles to watch him avoiding the thing/things like the plague. Which would be increasingly funny if he's as slow on his feet as has been guessed.

Seriously though, clarification on the exact nature of the problem would be nice, eh? :)

Advocate
2009-02-21, 04:25 PM
Are we quite certain that this isn't just a very clever troll?

No. I kind of hope he is at this point, as the alternative is to believe about half those who responded to him are perfectly willing to assault what amounts to a physically handicapped individual in a very humiliating manner. I would rather believe one person is doing that sort of thing than many. Especially when the many are being a bully about it.

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 04:49 PM
Are we quite certain that this isn't just a very clever troll?

As the player of the Samurai/Fighter/DD character posted in this very same forum earlier (the Fighter Theory-thread and then a new thread) and they both have few posts, I think we can be fairly secure in the fact that he's being serious.

Also, that post is why I suggested him to ensure his perception of who's broken is correct; many new DMs don't really realize who's doing the killing, they just pay attention to who seems to be doing it (e.g. swinging the weapon).

Likewise, that's why I emphasize playing the monsters intelligently; one huge reason why the ~100000-over-WPL Fighter is broken is because he's spent most of that money on his AC and thus level appropriate opponents aren't hitting (because he's so far over level-appropriate in funds since new players don't realize that casters can use equipment beyond stat boosters too) him, but a common idea seems to be that try to regardless even though the whole endeavour is useless.

Fortinbras
2009-02-21, 05:27 PM
I have it on very good authority that a) this was the player's first character so he is new to the world of optimizing and b) he got a lot of good advice on this very forum and will be rebuilding his character mainly due to said advice.

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-21, 05:37 PM
I have it on very good authority that a) this was the player's first character so he is new to the world of optimizing and b) he got a lot of good advice on this very forum and will be rebuilding his character mainly due to said advice.

So is your DM being cheeky and saying the opposite of what is true? I remember one of your problems was that you were becoming more ineffective as you gained levels.

Fortinbras
2009-02-21, 06:33 PM
Sorta. Somehow I managed to a make a character without exceding my wealth per level, making good use of my feats, playing a caster, or making wise multiclass choices that was more powerfull than anyone else. I'm currently rebuilding him using the leap attack and combat brute tactical feats. I think that my DM is a little jelous (take turns DMing so I may have slighted him when we were playing together) and he just likes messing with me. I personaly wouldn't mind a challenge that involved me having to think but some of the suggestions on this thread are just mean. It's a two person party with me and a cleric. So rouge/wizard only things will grind the campaign to a halt.

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-21, 06:37 PM
Sorta. Somehow I managed to a make a character without exceding my wealth per level, making good use of my feats, playing a caster, or making wise multiclass choices that was more powerfull than anyone else. I'm currently rebuilding him using the leap attack and combat brute tactical feats. I think that my DM is a little jelous (take turns DMing so I may have slighted him when we were playing together) and he just likes messing with me. I personaly wouldn't mind a challenge that involved me having to think but some of the suggestions on this thread are just mean. It's a two person party with me and a cleric. So rouge/wizard only things will grind the campaign to a halt.

Heh. If you optimize your character, surely that is just going to excerbate this problem? I admit I was pretty surprised at the reaction here, but I think it was just an overflow from the highly polarized fighter good/fighter bad stuff that had being going on before.

I would just do what feels right for your game, and do your best to have fun. Rebuilding your character to be much tougher will just make this problem much, much worse, rather than improving it any.

Fortinbras
2009-02-21, 08:07 PM
Maybye, but I feal kind of silly with the build I have now. Especialy after everyone has had a go at it.

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 08:13 PM
Two characters presents a whole different bunch of problems. I personally like to use Leadership (with experienced players) or a DMPC (with less experienced players) to add a 3rd person since I find 3-person parties to work much better than two-person ones.

It's easy enough to have the divinist, melee, arcanist and monkey/cannon covered between 3 characters (just one, generally the third wheel, can be the missing/missing), but for two that requires a ton of optimization (or Druids).

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-21, 08:22 PM
Maybye, but I feal kind of silly with the build I have now. Especialy after everyone has had a go at it.

The most important thing for a game, any game, is that you have fun. Even if your current build differs from the 'optimized' one on these boards, if it works for you then you are not wrong. Everyone plays differently, and if you are breaking the game as you are now then powering up is not the answer.

Optimizing is a good idea if everyone is optimized, but it sounds like your fellow player and the DM are fairly unoptimized. In this situation, it seems like it would be a mistake to become more powerful, regardless of what the people in the other thread said.

The Minx
2009-02-21, 08:39 PM
This one should be obvious really

I know. That was my hint. :smallwink:


Smashing the door will open it

No it won't. Not if you design the trap properly. Who's to say that there is a door at all?

Advocate
2009-02-22, 07:36 AM
Trap? Wasn't this topic about locks? Picking the lock doesn't help with traps either.

Evilfeeds
2009-02-22, 10:35 AM
Maybye, but I feal kind of silly with the build I have now. Especialy after everyone has had a go at it.

To slightly repeat what sharikov said, the most important thing is fun. I dont believe people are "having a go at it", as much as pointing out that it really isnt optimal, and the idea that such a character could be overpowered, seems silly.

Theres nothing wrong with suboptimal characters: one of my personal favourite characters was a level 5 barbarian/fighter/paladin/ranger (one level of each class, 2 of ranger). While I wasnt "optimal", I could hold my own in a fight, and was able to pull a few extra tricks out my sleeve that perhaps a "well built" class wouldnt have managed. (not the least of which, having a level of paladin allowed me to use a wand of cure light wounds, which transformed me into the party healer)

Besides, if all people cared about was optimisation, no-one would play melee classes.

InkEyes
2009-02-22, 11:17 AM
Maybye, but I feal kind of silly with the build I have now. Especialy after everyone has had a go at it.

Your DM is having trouble making challenges for your build now, optimizing your character may only make the problem worse. Especially since a build like that will play very differently than a Dwarven Defender.

Incidentally, how does the Cleric play? Is he a healbot/caster, or does he buff himself up and wade into combat next to you? If your DM is planning on upping the challenges in the game and the Cleric is already playing second fiddle to you, he'll most likely have to adapt another play style in order to survive. Between the two of you, you could probably take down any challenges if he buffs up beforehand; a Divine Power here, a Righteous Might there and he'll make a great tank.

Advocate
2009-02-22, 11:27 AM
To slightly repeat what sharikov said, the most important thing is fun. I dont believe people are "having a go at it", as much as pointing out that it really isnt optimal, and the idea that such a character could be overpowered, seems silly.

Theres nothing wrong with suboptimal characters: one of my personal favourite characters was a level 5 barbarian/fighter/paladin/ranger (one level of each class, 2 of ranger). While I wasnt "optimal", I could hold my own in a fight, and was able to pull a few extra tricks out my sleeve that perhaps a "well built" class wouldnt have managed. (not the least of which, having a level of paladin allowed me to use a wand of cure light wounds, which transformed me into the party healer)

Besides, if all people cared about was optimisation, no-one would play melee classes.

You sure that isn't optimal? 1 level of Barbarian gives you the primary class feature of that front loaded class. There is very, very little reason to take any more. Especially if you are Lion Totem.

Fighter 1 gets you a feat, which is the only reason to ever take Fighter levels. You could take a 2nd level if you needed another, but that's about the extent of that class's usefulness, so you ducked out before it got bad.

One level of Paladin... honestly doesn't do much. Though isn't there an alignment conflict somewhere in there? In any case, a 2nd level gives you all Paladins have to offer.

Two levels of Ranger = another feat dip. Very little reason to go beyond that.

So in actuality, you've been power dipping and don't even realize you're optimizing. The biggest problem you'll have is continuing to find class levels worth taking.

Evilfeeds
2009-02-22, 02:20 PM
You sure that isn't optimal?

I dont really consider it optimal at all, frankly.
Thats not to say its bad: it was a decent character, and managed to mow its way through a small band of orcs quite happily.

If i was trying for a "better", build, Id probably just go Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 (or paladin 1 if i really wanted the wand).

Itd allow me to wear plate (not that the previous couldnt, but he lost nearly all his benefits if he did) and perhaps take a 2h weapon instead of dual wielding. Pair up with something like great cleave / weapon specialisation, I think I could make a lot more of a mess.

If i was really trying, i might even look outside RAW.

(Worst comes to worst, 5 levels of druid would do nicely)

Also, no alignment issue if your a paladin of freedom! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)

Fortinbras
2009-02-22, 02:23 PM
The cleric wades into battle in full armor wielding two light maces and casting the occasional well-place spell. The paladin charges with her lance. Yes, I know we have an unbalanced party. I know we should have gotten a arcane caster and a sneaky character. We didn't. Fortunitly there are no "weak links" combat wise. We have plenty of melee power and plenty of divine spell casting.

It's funny how this thread has switched from being advice for my DM to being advice for me.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-22, 02:25 PM
I know. That was my hint. :smallwink:



No it won't. Not if you design the trap properly. Who's to say that there is a door at all?

You use an adamantine weapon + power Attack: now the wall is a door, or at least an opening.

Aquillion
2009-02-22, 02:46 PM
I dont really consider it optimal at all, frankly.
Thats not to say its bad: it was a decent character, and managed to mow its way through a small band of orcs quite happily.

If i was trying for a "better", build, Id probably just go Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 (or paladin 1 if i really wanted the wand).

Itd allow me to wear plate (not that the previous couldnt, but he lost nearly all his benefits if he did) and perhaps take a 2h weapon instead of dual wielding. Pair up with something like great cleave / weapon specialisation, I think I could make a lot more of a mess.Well, if we're talking optimization...

Great Cleave and Weapon Specialization both kind of suck. The number of extra attacks that Cleave gives you against enemies that actually matter is not going to be high... and a small damage bonus from Weapon Specialization is just not worth a feat; it doesn't scale and will eventually be negligible.

Theres
2009-02-22, 03:06 PM
Well i cant have any city chase scenes because he ends up killing anything before its run away. ranged combat doesn't work because he has zen archery and a big ass longbow. he has some boots of springing and striding so he's as a fast as a normal character plus he's dwarven non encumbrance in his +2 fullplate and his paladin cleric cohort whos also a dwarf are super powerful. he actually goes out of his way to be balanced and not let m give him too much loot. and im gonna sand assassins in the night to kill him. and i plan on taking away his flaming katana that will take him down a few pegs. he is just unnaturally good at combat. i had him in a crapmed elevator with 4 duregar and 2 drow war wizards and he cleaved his way through the web and killed everyone. stupid natural 1s

Aquillion
2009-02-22, 03:18 PM
Well i cant have any city chase scenes because he ends up killing anything before its run away. ranged combat doesn't work because he has zen archery and a big ass longbow. he has some boots of springing and striding so he's as a fast as a normal character plus he's dwarven non encumbrance in his +2 fullplate and his paladin cleric cohort whos also a dwarf are super powerful. he actually goes out of his way to be balanced and not let m give him too much loot. and im gonna sand assassins in the night to kill him. and i plan on taking away his flaming katana that will take him down a few pegs. he is just unnaturally good at combat. i had him in a crapmed elevator with 4 duregar and 2 drow war wizards and he cleaved his way through the web and killed everyone. stupid natural 1sI call shenanigans. The longbow bit is pushing this too far to take seriously.

But just in case you're really serious... trapping him in an elevator is not the way to go. His weak point is things that he can't hit.

His longbow is not the factor you make it out to be (even if he hits, the damage is very low due to his lack of extra attacks or ranged bonus damage -- he gets 1d8 damage, period. That should not be a threat to anything.) Additionally, Wind Wall and similar spells can foil that utterly, although you shouldn't need to go there (totally negating him is not what you want. Players are supposed to win, you just want to challenge him.)

Use anything that throws will saves at him. Anything with decent range attacks. Especially things that fly and throw ranged attacks and/or will saves. Blasty magic can work too if you don't want to instantly have him die by failing one will save.

Set up a situation with enemies that are out of easy reach (ambushing from a high position, on a wall or tower or cliff, say), and have them use any of the above. Make sure they have cover; that will make it difficult to plink them to death with a bow (although, again, the damage on that bow should be very low... enemy archers should be able to plink him to death far before he can plink them to death.)

Read any of the good-wizard-spells lists, pick some combat spells that look nice and target will saves, then have an enemy wizard use them on him.

Does he have a way to get past odd types of damage resistance? A were-creature might work. Does he have a way to hit Ethereal creatures? A Phase Spider (or whatever is appropriate for his level) should do fine.

In general, melee fighter-types tend to be one-trick-ponies, weak against anything they can't reach with a charge. It is not hard to figure out ways to challenge them; the hard part is to challenge them while keeping things fun (someone who flies and casts spells to block ranged attacks is likely not going to be fun, since he won't be able to do much at all.)

AgentPaper
2009-02-22, 03:29 PM
So your problem with him seems to be that he goes on adventures, gets in fights, and doesn't die horribly to the first thing that he comes upon? It sounds like he's just playing the game normally. Are you sending appropriate CR encounters at him? It's starting to sound like you're just trying to kill him with your DM powers now, and "put him in his place". You're playing a game, he's supposed to have fun, not die. Sure, you challenge him, but the goal isn't to kill him off. If he was killing off things that were far above his level, without even breaking a sweat, that might be an issue, (and with his build, I doubt that's the problem) but if he's just fighting things around his level or lower and winning, that's exactly what's supposed to happen.

Advocate
2009-02-22, 03:40 PM
I dont really consider it optimal at all, frankly.
Thats not to say its bad: it was a decent character, and managed to mow its way through a small band of orcs quite happily.

If i was trying for a "better", build, Id probably just go Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 (or paladin 1 if i really wanted the wand).

Itd allow me to wear plate (not that the previous couldnt, but he lost nearly all his benefits if he did) and perhaps take a 2h weapon instead of dual wielding. Pair up with something like great cleave / weapon specialisation, I think I could make a lot more of a mess.

If i was really trying, i might even look outside RAW.

(Worst comes to worst, 5 levels of druid would do nicely)

Also, no alignment issue if your a paladin of freedom! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)

Your 'better' build is actually worse. By a large margin in fact. Especially if you actually took those feats. TWFing isn't great, but you could have just as easily used the Ranger dip for archery.

Also, heavy armor is a step down.

To test a theory, what would you consider 'optimal'?

Kyouhen
2009-02-22, 04:37 PM
If you really want to give him a hard time here's what you do.

If this hasn't happened already then give him a reason to go to a large temple and let him kill everyone inside and otherwise desecrate the place. Start sending a few clerics/paladins/etc of the god who's temple has been ruined.

After you've decided that the god is sufficiently angered by this guy, send an Aleax after him. It's a creature from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Put simply it's a construct created by a god that's an exact copy of him, right down to his feats and equipment. The best part is nothing anyone other than the person the Aleax is sent to kill can disrupt it in any way shape or form. He's the ONLY one that can take it down. Play the Aleax well and he'll have quite a nasty fight on his hands.

Evilfeeds
2009-02-22, 04:46 PM
Well, if we're talking optimization...

Great Cleave and Weapon Specialization both kind of suck.

Perhaps. I dont tend to play outside the core books, for what its worth. Ill admit that great cleave by and large isnt a huge step up over normal cleave, but we use it often enough for it to be considered "a good thing."

+2 damage seems like a nice little general boost as well, I dont really see much else Id have over it. It was a one off game, so we were level 5 for the whole thing. I'll grant that it might fall short at the high levels, but once again (by core, at least) is there much else worth having over it?


Your 'better' build is actually worse.

I dont think it is, really. We're losing:
Favoured enemy (which, imo, sucks)
Track (which im going to say is occassionally useful)
Wild empathy (with only 2 levels of ranger, doesnt seem like its going to rock the boat)
Combat style (good, but its basically a free feat with conditions)
Detect evil (which ranges from amazing to useless, depending on the situation and/or GM, but I like)
Smite evil (for something like 1 point of damage, so lets ignore this)
Speed (from 40 to 20)

But gaining:
+4 ac
an unspecified amount of +dam
2 nonconditional fighter feats, and access to a few feats you couldnt have in the above build

Your losing flexibility, but your gaining focus. Perhaps it just comes down to personal choice - I'd rather play the first build, because its more fun, but if i wanted to win, i'd choose the second.

Im not sure why you consider heavy armour a step down, unless you value mobility that highly.

As for your question, it depends. Technically, i suppose pun-pun is the only build that is optimal - anything that isnt pun pun, by definition, is suboptimal. Nontechnically, anything that can breeze through the adventure: Ive seen a level 3(?) bard build which had something like +100 to diplomacy rolls: thats fairly impressive. Similarly, I saw an (epic) dual wielding build that did something along the lines of attacking 10 times a round, and each attack forced a save vs death - but at that level, things get silly anyway.

Edit: I fail at acronyms

Advocate
2009-02-22, 05:09 PM
In core only, there are about oh... 6 feats in the entire book actually worth taking as a beatstick. Weapon Specialization isn't one of them. Not by a long shot. You could make the entire Weapon Focus line, including that a single feat that scales with level and it STILL wouldn't qualify. Suffice it to say, if you are a human and/or Fighter, all you've done is get to the part where you have to dig around to find something that isn't TOO rotted sooner. If you are a non human, non Fighter you still run out of feats entirely at level 15.

Dipping Ranger 2 gives you a free feat, a decent pool of skill points, cure wand usage and some other minor stuff. Compare to taking Fighter 3 and 4 where you get... 1 feat, and then a bunch of basic BAB filler you also get as Ranger. Beyond level 2 you get... very little.

Barbarian 1 gives you Rage, and potentially Pounce, which is 90% of the class right there. Yes, the Rage is 1/day. It would take a while for you to get another usage off levels. However, even just adding Complete Warrior means the Rage is now 3/day for the cost of one feat. Which is very close to all day, given the whole 4 fights a day thing.

Paladin 1 doesn't give much, but it does set up for Paladin 2, which gives Charisma to all saves. This is practically a requirement as a beatstick to get your saves up.

Fighter 1 gives a feat, which is the only reason to take Fighter. Fighter 2 would give another feat, if you took that later. But that's about it.

So far, your build is an incomplete, but optimized character. Until such time as you mess that up by taking more Ranger levels, more Barbarian levels, more than 1 more Paladin level, or more than 1 more Fighter level it will continue to hold true.

If you wanted to win, you'd go with the first build, because it's flat out better. From continuing this talk, I realize you don't actually know what optimal is and is not, but you had it right the first time.

Heavy armor is a step down because you need mobility to get to the enemy and to make it harder for the enemy to just saunter on around you. Meanwhile, AC? Doesn't matter, you'll still get hit by nearly everything that cares about attack vs AC after level 5. Seeing as it isn't even possible to significantly invest into your AC until after level 5 due to WBL issues... It's nice enough to tell you in advance don't bother, you'll still get hit. You just have to listen.

If you were a ToB adept or caster, you could also use mobility as a defense, by doing something relevant as a Standard action, and then moving, making DC 15 Tumble checks as needed. This makes the enemy unable to full attack you, which is actually an amazing defense against them. If you aren't one of those things though, you can't do something relevant as a Standard action, so it hurts you as bad or worse.

Evilfeeds
2009-02-22, 06:34 PM
You could make the entire Weapon Focus line, including that a single feat that scales with level and it STILL wouldn't qualify.

Id consider a +2 to hit and +4 damage not insignificant; its certainly better than rage, unless you love temporary hitpoints and only being able to use it once a day.



Dipping Ranger 2 gives you a free feat, a decent pool of skill points, cure wand usage and some other minor stuff. Compare to taking Fighter 3 and 4 where you get... 1 feat, and then a bunch of basic BAB filler you also get as Ranger. Beyond level 2 you get... very little.

If your taking fighter 2/ ranger 2, then yes, you do get a free feat over fighter 4. Track. Which, you know, i like and all, but isnt really that much to shout about.
Wand use and skill points are admittedly slightly more handy, assuming you take ranger as your first level.



Barbarian 1 gives you Rage, and potentially Pounce, which is 90% of the class right there. Yes, the Rage is 1/day. It would take a while for you to get another usage off levels. However, even just adding Complete Warrior means the Rage is now 3/day for the cost of one feat. Which is very close to all day, given the whole 4 fights a day thing.


No pounce in core, unless im missing something. And everyone knows that a +2 hit, +2 damage is worthless. The temporary hits points once a day are nice though.



Paladin 1 doesn't give much, but it does set up for Paladin 2, which gives Charisma to all saves. This is practically a requirement as a beatstick to get your saves up.


After putting points elsewhere, i only have a +1 cha modifier. Thats a rather unexciting +1 to all saves.



Fighter 1 gives a feat, which is the only reason to take Fighter. Fighter 2 would give another feat, if you took that later. But that's about it.


Feats arent that bad. Luck of heroes is a (non core) feat, that gives +1 to all saves, which would achieve the same as that 2nd level in paladin.



So far, your build is an incomplete, but optimized character. Until such time as you mess that up by taking more Ranger levels, more Barbarian levels, more than 1 more Paladin level, or more than 1 more Fighter level it will continue to hold true.


If its incomplete, its not optimized.



If you wanted to win, you'd go with the first build, because it's flat out better.


In your opinion. Unless you have an irrefutable proof, I disagree.



From continuing this talk, I realize you don't actually know what optimal is and is not, but you had it right the first time.


Really now, are snide remarks necessary?



Heavy armor is a step down because you need mobility to get to the enemy and to make it harder for the enemy to just saunter on around you.


I dont need to get to the enemy if i have a bow and arrow. If the enemy saunters around me, then fine: Ill pepper them with arrows. If they avoid me entirely, then fine, I avoided a combat.

If the enemy avoids me, then that means I can shield the party as well. Thats worth something by itself.



Meanwhile, AC? Doesn't matter, you'll still get hit by nearly everything that cares about attack vs AC after level 5. Seeing as it isn't even possible to significantly invest into your AC until after level 5 due to WBL issues... It's nice enough to tell you in advance don't bother, you'll still get hit. You just have to listen.


Maybe thats true. But Im level 5. So, for the moment, ac matters. I never said "hey, heres a build that will be more optimal than this other build when they both hit level 20". I said "I consider this build to be better than this build." When they hit level 6, then thats a different build, and a whole different ball game.

Incidentally, in the adventure we played (which was an official D&D module, as it happens), we fought orcs. AC mattered. Maybe it wont matter all the time, but I suppose that depends on your GM. If your only fighting appropriate CR monsters, then it may be true, but we tend to fight a variety of monsters, including masses of low level monsters.



If you were a ToB adept or caster, you could also use mobility as a defense, by doing something relevant as a Standard action, and then moving, making DC 15 Tumble checks as needed. This makes the enemy unable to full attack you, which is actually an amazing defense against them. If you aren't one of those things though, you can't do something relevant as a Standard action, so it hurts you as bad or worse.

Thats probably true, but I dont have tome of battle.

Aquillion
2009-02-22, 06:43 PM
Dipping Ranger 2 gives you a free feat, a decent pool of skill points, cure wand usage and some other minor stuff. Compare to taking Fighter 3 and 4 where you get... 1 feat, and then a bunch of basic BAB filler you also get as Ranger. Beyond level 2 you get... very little.Don't forget to make a Ranger level your first level, so you get to multiply its juicy 6 skill points.

Use four of those skill points to max Knowledge: Geography. Then, wait on your second Ranger level until level 5, and finish raising Knowledge: Geography to 8 so you can get into Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) with your next level. Horizon Walker isn't great, but if you take it for six levels you can get the ability to Dimension Door for free every 1d4 rounds, which is nice. Then you can take more levels for Tremorsense or whatever... better than nothing, at least.

See also: The Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415).

Advocate
2009-02-22, 07:42 PM
Id consider a +2 to hit and +4 damage not insignificant; its certainly better than rage, unless you love temporary hitpoints and only being able to use it once a day.

+2 to hit and +4 damage with one weapon type only at level 12 vs... +2 to hit and +2 damage... at level 1. And other stuff. Gee, that's a tough one... Also, if you are willing to torch four feats on that line, you won't have any problem using one feat for Extra Rage. It is now 3/day.


If your taking fighter 2/ ranger 2, then yes, you do get a free feat over fighter 4. Track. Which, you know, i like and all, but isnt really that much to shout about.
Wand use and skill points are admittedly slightly more handy, assuming you take ranger as your first level.

Ranger 2 gives a feat. Fighter 4 gives a feat. Ranger 1 and 2 give more stuff. Fighter levels are only there for the feats. Ranger 2 > Fighter 4. Full stop.


No pounce in core, unless im missing something. And everyone knows that a +2 hit, +2 damage is worthless. The temporary hits points once a day are nice though.

Interesting contradiction, and wrongness. It's not temp HP. However, the Pounce is listed as an added bonus.


After putting points elsewhere, i only have a +1 cha modifier. Thats a rather unexciting +1 to all saves.

Which becomes +2, +3, or +4 with charisma boosts.


Feats arent that bad. Luck of heroes is a (non core) feat, that gives +1 to all saves, which would achieve the same as that 2nd level in paladin.

See above.


If its incomplete, its not optimized.

Incomplete = work in progress.


In your opinion. Unless you have an irrefutable proof, I disagree.

Read the posts.


I dont need to get to the enemy if i have a bow and arrow. If the enemy saunters around me, then fine: Ill pepper them with arrows. If they avoid me entirely, then fine, I avoided a combat.

Moving around you costs some small amount of a single move action. And that's it. You sit there shooting for trivial damage, while it and the rest of your party are doing meaningful things.


If the enemy avoids me, then that means I can shield the party as well. Thats worth something by itself.

Except that that is wholly false.


Maybe thats true. But Im level 5. So, for the moment, ac matters. I never said "hey, heres a build that will be more optimal than this other build when they both hit level 20". I said "I consider this build to be better than this build." When they hit level 6, then thats a different build, and a whole different ball game.

Incidentally, in the adventure we played (which was an official D&D module, as it happens), we fought orcs. AC mattered. Maybe it wont matter all the time, but I suppose that depends on your GM. If your only fighting appropriate CR monsters, then it may be true, but we tend to fight a variety of monsters, including masses of low level monsters.

Straw man.


Thats probably true, but I dont have tome of battle.

Ok. Well then suffice it to say they don't have to full attack to matter. And most strikes are Standard actions.

Hawriel
2009-02-23, 03:21 AM
1) keep in mind the pc s are the heroes, they're supposed to win

2) Those class combos are usually considered weak. Who's in the rest of the party and what are you throwing at them?

3) Any monster or NPC villian that uses spells or effects that require will saves. Charm him and turn him against the party

1) THis is never true. Heroes are peaple who perform their duty dispite overwhelming terror, certain injury and or death. PC are not defacto heroes they must earn the honorific through their actions. PCs are not supposed to 'win' no more than NPCs are supposed to 'lose'.

2) As has been stated befor in the thread the builds weekness is your opinion, and some other individuals with similar opinions on how D&D 'should' be played.

3) I know through very resent experiance that this can be very devistating to a party.

To the OP
Why would you need to punish this player? What has he/she done other than succeed? Is the player disruptive or overbearing? If so punishing them in game is inappropriate. Talk to the player about your conserns. However if the player is succeeding honestly and, staying in character which is causing you frustration, punishing him/her is juvenile. As DM your not supposed to be the enemy of the players. The DM is suppsed to creat a story that the players will find challenging. You should also think about how the success or failer would chainge that story and create new challenges.

However I do like to make players squirm. :smallwink:
As every one has said you can make some uber npc with the sole purpose of humiliating one player. I honestly think thats hard handed frankly shallow if that is the only reason the NPC is created. So you need a good reason to do it :smallwink:.

The problem solver.
The victories of the PC has put a big hamper on the opperations of what ever organization(s) exist in your world. The player has made waves and wrecked plans. This brought him to the attention of some NPCs radiar higher up the pay scale. Make up some NPCs to deal with the player. When they fail bring in the problem salver. This NPC is a character who was highered, ordered, and or created to find out who this hero is and deal with him. The problem salver investigates the hero further to find out whats the best way to end the problem. Maybe the hero should be killed, or worse, he is discredited in a way that totaly wipes his honer and kills any admeration his community has for him. Then tempt him.

Undone by his own success.
This character is a samuria. He is bound by duty, honor and loyalty. His achievements have caught the eye of his supperiors and community. He is honored with responsability. Is he made captain of the town guard. Body guard of a Lord. A lords family member. what ever the responsability he is now tied by duty to a community, and lord. Can he maintain that? What would cause him to fail? Can he maintain his honor when forced to make a choice between his duty to his lord and his family? What if he finds out somthing not so honorable about his lord? Does he tarnish his honor by being disloyal to his lord in order to uphold his duty to trueth? How will his community reacto to this?

The foil or rival.
Creat a LN or LE NPC that the player cannon activly move against. The player is LG. He cannot just call out some one at high noon to kill them. This NPC is a person of influence within the community. He might be a rival lord or a low ranked noble. If LN he might have goals that come into conflict with the players goals or his lords goals. If LE maybe this rival is seaking to over throw the lord is some way. Maybe he is profiting is some way from bandits, or rival countries. What ever the LE NPCs motive is he can not be confronted openly. He is a lawful member of the nobility, merchant class or royal guard. What ever his possition he takes a dislike to the player's character and apposes him. Especialy when the players actions may hamper with his goals.

Or just combine all three.

monty
2009-02-23, 01:39 PM
2) As has been stated befor in the thread the builds weekness is your opinion, and some other individuals with similar opinions on how D&D 'should' be played.

If a build is incapable of properly doing what it was designed to do, it is a weak build. The samurai, for example, is objectively weaker than the fighter, because the fighter can use feats to get everything the samurai has and more.

Also, if you're trying to make a convincing argument, I suggest proofreading your post. It's really distracting when there's a mistake every third word.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 01:44 PM
Actually, I would take a CW Samurai over a Fighter any day. While the feats are fewer, preselected, and bad CW Samurai do at least get one decent trick via other means in the form of fearlocking, which involves Imperious Command among other things. Fighters don't get that. Instead they have to try to get their one trick some other way. I dunno about you, but I would consider rendering every enemy around you cowering with no save a bit better of a trick than 'I charge', 'I trip', or 'I dungeoncrash'.

Also, the CW Samurai gets Diplomacy, so they aren't completely useless out of combat.