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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-02-21, 04:27 AM
I was wondering. How long would it take a 20th level evil wizard Worldwalking from Toril into a modern-day Earth to conquer the United States all by his lonesome assuming there were no supernatural creatures or characters on the planet?

In the interest of fairness, no obviously unintended cheese such as Pun-Pun, chain-gating and the like. Also, the wizard would not be able to make or buy new magical materials or spell components in a primarily nonmagical world (assume he has eschew materials) so he only has what his WBL indicates.

Samurai Jill
2009-02-21, 04:29 AM
That depends entirely on how far he's willing to abuse the rules.

kpenguin
2009-02-21, 04:31 AM
Depends.

Are modern weapons going by D20 Modern Rules?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-02-21, 04:31 AM
Edited OP to clarify. No stuff obviously unintended (that would definitely not fly within any DMed campaign).


Modern weapons;

Modern weapons ignore armor equal to or less than their number of damage dice and AP weapons ignore twice this amount. Realistic weapon damage examples below;

.22 pistol; 2d6
.38 pistol; 3d8
.45 pistol; 4d8
assault rifle; 7d6
sniper rifle; 12d6
minigun; 14d6
zeliska 80 caliber; 16d6
tank cannon; 10d6 piercing, 10d6 crushing, 20d6 fire
nuke; 100d6 crushing, 200d6 fire

Drider
2009-02-21, 04:34 AM
If a wizard from dnd really wanted to, all he'd need to do is flood our economy by breaking a single ladder into 2 10 foot poles, and selling them over and over again, and turn all of earth into a desert apocolypse ruled by motor bike riding dinosaur-werewolves.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-21, 04:39 AM
Improved Invisibility and Greater Blink, no weapon will be capable of hitting him.

He'd start out with casting Gensis to create an accessible Demi-Plane for him to rest in as well as keep his real body while his Clone is running around committing havoc. The Clone would riding around on a Phantom Stag (because it's bloody fast), with a Contigency Planeshift on itself, hurling Firebursts around (seeing as 1st level commoners have so little HP that it doesn't really matter, and reserve feats ensure that it's all day), if everything goes avry he can then use Celerity and then a Maximized Empowered Timestop (by the grace of Rods of Metamagic) to escape something like a Nuclear Blast with Greater Teleport. And if the Clone is killed, a new wizard will be appearing some time later, redoing the exact same thing.


If he's really lazy, he'll be Gating in an Umbral Blot.

lord_khaine
2009-02-21, 04:45 AM
sheesh, why go to all that trouble?

really, a wizard should be able to take over any country of his choice around lv 12, simply by dominating the national leaders.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-21, 04:47 AM
sheesh, why go to all that trouble?

really, a wizard should be able to take over any country of his choice around lv 12, simply by dominating the national leaders. My mistake, you're absolutely correct. Dominate Person and everything has been decided :smallamused:.

Edge of Dreams
2009-02-21, 05:07 AM
In fact, a level 20 wizard can cast Dominate Person at least 20 times a day, if that's all he prepares at 5th and above. With bonus spells, more like 25. So, four days minimum to own the senate, another one day for the Supreme Court, the President, and his cabinet. Even with saving throws and so on, and a few spells reserved for emergencies, total control of the US government can be achieved with a couple of weeks.

Teron
2009-02-21, 05:11 AM
Improved Invisibility and Greater Blink, no weapon will be capable of hitting him.

He'd start out with casting Gensis to create an accessible Demi-Plane for him to rest in as well as keep his real body while his Clone is running around committing havoc. The Clone would riding around on a Phantom Stag (because it's bloody fast), with a Contigency Planeshift on itself, hurling Firebursts around (seeing as 1st level commoners have so little HP that it doesn't really matter, and reserve feats ensure that it's all day), if everything goes avry he can then use Celerity and then a Maximized Empowered Timestop (by the grace of Rods of Metamagic) to escape something like a Nuclear Blast with Greater Teleport. And if the Clone is killed, a new wizard will be appearing some time later, redoing the exact same thing.


If he's really lazy, he'll be Gating in an Umbral Blot.
Technically, it would be the clone that stays in the demi-plane, since it only awakens when the original dies. However, since he's level 20, the wizard is better off using astral projection, which causes no level loss when the projection dies and copies all his gear, too.

Harperfan7
2009-02-21, 05:31 AM
He could easily take over our government and society, and even if somebody found out about him, what can they do? Even if they convince the military of what is really going on, what can it do? A 20th level wizard can easily be immune to bullets/poison/pretty much whatever.

Let's put together a team of people who know about him and try to take him out. Let's say we have bruce lee at his peak, the entire delta force, the best underworld assassin, the worlds strongest man (that firefighter from West Virginia), and whoever has the highest IQ and education in america. I doubt that even they could, simply because if he was prepared (and he likely would be) they just couldn't hurt him or capture him.

Without magic, nobody would beat him.

Dacia Brabant
2009-02-21, 05:44 AM
There is one villain that even the most well-prepared 20th level Batman Wizard can't possibly hope to defeat:

The 24-Hour News cycle. :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2009-02-21, 06:28 AM
If a wizard from dnd really wanted to, all he'd need to do is flood our economy by breaking a single ladder into 2 10 foot poles, and selling them over and over again, and turn all of earth into a desert apocolypse ruled by motor bike riding dinosaur-werewolves.

...is it wrong that I actually think this is an improvement?

Aquillion
2009-02-21, 06:41 AM
He could do it with Mindrape alone. Invisibility, Teleport, Ethereal Jaunt / Etherealness and so forth just make it even easier for him to reach anybody important that he wants to turn into his mind-slaves.

Also note that thanks to Astral Projection, he can't be killed by anyone who lacks the ability to reach his safe little Demiplane.

Yuki Akuma
2009-02-21, 08:16 AM
Wall of Iron uses components easily found on Earth. Continually cast Wall of Iron, sell the iron, get rich, and buy everyone.

hewhosaysfish
2009-02-21, 08:19 AM
Also note that thanks to Astral Projection, he can't be killed by anyone who lacks the ability to reach his safe little Demiplane.

Psssh! Boring! (Also, Genesis has to be cast while on the Ethereal Plane. What if the real world doesn't have an Ethereal Plane?)
The wizard cast Iron Body on himself, Teleports to the moon, constructs a secret moonbase from Walls of Stone and Walls of Force, and plots his apocolyptic dinosaur-werewolf desertification from there.
Because having a moonbase is way cooler than some silly pocket-plane; all the other wizards have those.

TSED
2009-02-21, 09:01 AM
Wall of Iron uses components easily found on Earth. Continually cast Wall of Iron, sell the iron, get rich, and buy everyone.


Economy crash, and iron is already ridiculously easy to get ahold of on Earth. Most of Earth is iron.




Frankly, all it'd take is some clever illusion work to convince 99% of the world that GOD HATH RETURNETH. Why dominate, why subjugate, why obliterate... when you can pop a Daylight spell or two, Greater Invisibility, and Major Image?

Aquillion
2009-02-21, 09:08 AM
Never mind the fact that he can bring back the dead using Clone.

Thoughtbot360
2009-02-21, 09:49 AM
There is one villain that even the most well-prepared 20th level Batman Wizard can't possibly hope to defeat:

The 24-Hour News cycle. :smalltongue:

Dominate person on the CEOs of all the respective news corporations. Done.

MoelVermillion
2009-02-21, 10:06 AM
I think the wizard should just prepare a whole heap of enervation spells and zap random commoners with it to cause a wight apocalypse, a wight apocalypse is cooler and more deadly then a zombocalypse and will catch people off guard. If the wizard wants to it can teleport to priority targets or into quarantine zones and wightify them too, this approach makes the outbreak nearly unstoppable.

This approach will not gain you control of the US but by this definition (Merriam-Webster Dictionary):

1 : to gain or acquire by force of arms : subjugate <conquer territory>
2 : to overcome by force of arms : vanquish <conquered the enemy>
3 : to gain mastery over or win by overcoming obstacles or opposition <conquered the mountain>
4 : to overcome by mental or moral power : surmount <conquered her fear>
They would still be conquering by the second definition.

This is likely to take at the very minimum a few weeks before the US truly falls so its definitely not the most effective method, but at the same time its a ravaging horde of the living dead so thats got to count for something.

Woodsman
2009-02-21, 10:10 AM
Never mind the fact that he can bring back the dead using Clone.

Or a carefully-worded wish or miracle

Aquillion
2009-02-21, 10:14 AM
Wish doesn't even have to be carefully worded (imitating Resurrection falls under the list of things it can do easily, without a risk of your wish being twisted). However, it costs 5000 xp, so you're not going to do it often. Clone, meanwhile, you can do for anyone willing to pay the cost.

UserClone
2009-02-21, 10:25 AM
Or even with just limited wish.

Eloel
2009-02-21, 10:41 AM
He could easily take over our government and society, and even if somebody found out about him, what can they do? Even if they convince the military of what is really going on, what can it do? A 20th level wizard can easily be immune to bullets/poison/pretty much whatever.

Let's put together a team of people who know about him and try to take him out. Let's say we have bruce lee at his peak, the entire delta force, the best underworld assassin, the worlds strongest man (that firefighter from West Virginia), and whoever has the highest IQ and education in america. I doubt that even they could, simply because if he was prepared (and he likely would be) they just couldn't hurt him or capture him.

Without magic, nobody would beat him.

You fail.
Chuck Norris can beat him.

Behold_the_Void
2009-02-21, 11:27 AM
Dominate person on the CEOs of all the respective news corporations. Done.

Most CEOs for various news corporations don't control the day-to-day news cycle too directly, and don't underestimate the alternative media which is growing pretty healthy especially among various ethnic populations. The media, in general, is fairly hard to silence, although I admit that it's not liable to end up reported based on how unbelievable the truth is. There would likely be reports that SOMETHING is up, though, and if the Wizard isn't minding himself the domination trick could cause issues among the populace.

Yahzi
2009-02-21, 11:30 AM
wight apocalypse
Is there anything on modern-day Earth that can, by RAW, kill a Shadow?

As a GM, I'd rule that energy weapons (lasers, flamethrowers, etc.) do. But, according to RAW, can even the biggest, hottest non-magical fire affect a Shadow?

All you need to conquer Earth by force of arms is one Shadow. You don't even have to be close to 20th level for that. A real challenge is to see how far you can get at 3rd or 5th level. Our society has no defense whatsoever against Charm Person; we can't detect for it, cancel it, block it, or even officially acknowledge it exists.

Heck, Mage Hand would make you rich and powerful, just from cheating at roulette. And there are plenty of David Koreshes who become cult leaders just by having a smooth tongue and no conscience; imagine how many people you could fool with actual magical powers.

This is the problem with a low-magic world: it makes magic even more powerful.

Zeta Kai
2009-02-21, 11:53 AM
Most CEOs for various news corporations don't control the day-to-day news cycle too directly, and don't underestimate the alternative media which is growing pretty healthy especially among various ethnic populations. The media, in general, is fairly hard to silence, although I admit that it's not liable to end up reported based on how unbelievable the truth is. There would likely be reports that SOMETHING is up, though, and if the Wizard isn't minding himself the domination trick could cause issues among the populace.

You underestimate the influence of Ted Turner & Rupert Murdock, whose power is dwarfed by the control certain other governments (like, say, China/North Korea) have over their media. I fear you put too much faith in the First Amendment, which has unarguably seen its limits tested in the last decade. What chance does the alternative press have against an arcane demigod with autocratic/apocalyptic designs? Answer = NONE.

Quid Est Demonstratem.

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-21, 11:58 AM
You underestimate the influence of Ted Turner & Rupert Murdock, whose power is dwarfed by the control certain other governments (like, say, China/North Korea) have over their media. I fear you put too much faith in the First Amendment, which has unarguably seen its limits tested in the last decade. What chance does the alternative press have against an arcane demigod with autocratic/apocalyptic designs? Answer = NONE.

Quid Est Demonstratem.

Four reporters.

One monstrously powerful being from another dimension.

This summer, the search for truth...

Becomes a search for survival.

elliott20
2009-02-21, 12:12 PM
how easy for him to take over the world? as everyone here has said, fairly easy. I mean, if we are not aware of him or magic, and we have no defense against it, he pretty much will have no problem what so ever bending the world to his will. The question here is how long he'll hold onto it.

He could, of course, systematically mindrape and brainwash every figure of importance in the world, and with a little bit of proper protection, he can pretty much do so unimpeded. But he would at some point have to deal with unrest and all that.

The precise details, of course, will depend upon other factors to.

Where is emperor tippy when you need him? he probably has had this scenario played out in his head like 50 million times already.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-02-21, 12:21 PM
Non-magical fire simply can't hurt a shadow. A laser might in the same sense a searing ray could. But that'd be up to this scenario's 'GM' to decide.

lisiecki
2009-02-21, 12:31 PM
Modern weapons ignore armor equal to or less than their number of damage dice and AP weapons ignore twice this amount. Realistic weapon damage examples below;


And yet a direct hit from a tank's cannon, cant kill an elephant

Also from that old thread the average GITP poster is made on a 90 point point buy... I dont think he would last

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 12:31 PM
Non-magical fire simply can't hurt a shadow. A laser might in the same sense a searing ray could. But that'd be up to this scenario's 'GM' to decide.

We can create artifical UV rays in the real world: That kind of light destroys shadows.

lisiecki
2009-02-21, 12:36 PM
We can create artifical UV rays in the real world: That kind of light destroys shadows.

UV rays are magical in the real world?

elliott20
2009-02-21, 12:38 PM
And yet a direct hit from a tank's cannon, cant kill an elephant

Also from that old thread the average GITP poster is made on a 90 point point buy... I dont think he would last

Bah, a 90 point buy level 2 expert is STILL only a level 2 expert.

Kyouhen
2009-02-21, 12:39 PM
Psssh! Boring! (Also, Genesis has to be cast while on the Ethereal Plane. What if the real world doesn't have an Ethereal Plane?)
The wizard cast Iron Body on himself, Teleports to the moon, constructs a secret moonbase from Walls of Stone and Walls of Force, and plots his apocolyptic dinosaur-werewolf desertification from there.
Because having a moonbase is way cooler than some silly pocket-plane; all the other wizards have those.

Then he'll start casting Polymorph Any Object on small clay sculptures of monsters to turn them into REAL monsters! Then, when average teenagers start to win against said monsters he'll throw down a wand of Enlarge Person to make the monster HUGE!

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 12:40 PM
UV rays are magical in the real world?

Yes, yes they are. Sun is a magical artifact from a long dead war from the Triaivans. We ,the earthlings, are safe for now, but some day they will return.


Then he'll start casting Polymorph Any Object on small clay sculptures of monsters to turn them into REAL monsters! Then, when average teenagers start to win against said monsters he'll throw down a wand of Enlarge Person to make the monster HUGE!

Dude, Enlarge person is for people not monsters. But I see what you did there, nice.

Harperfan7
2009-02-21, 12:40 PM
Why doesn't somebody make a 20th level wizard with the elite array stats, pick which spells he has and has prepared, and then lets figure this out.

We are comparing the US to the entire wizards spell list, lets pick from that list, then compare.

Yakk
2009-02-21, 12:52 PM
Without a bound on the cheese, this question is open.

Because really, the 20th level wizard goes and gains some XP, becomes epic, gets epic wizardry, and breaks the universe.

So what is the bound on the cheese? Astral projection followed by gating to the prime material?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-21, 12:53 PM
Then he'll start casting Polymorph Any Object on small clay sculptures of monsters to turn them into REAL monsters! Then, when average teenagers start to win against said monsters he'll throw down a wand of Enlarge Person to make the monster HUGE!

But then five color-coordinated teens will emerge to destroy them...

Seriously, the best way to defeat a shadow? Flash grenade should be enough.

Ultimately, the world will not be able to stand up to the magic a level 20 Wizard could produce, however we could probably give him a bigger challenge than he originally anticipates.

Also, the Redneck South would likely still be in rebellion, as they clearly have the Mindless trait and so immune to mind-affecting spells because they simply don't have a mind to dominate.

elliott20
2009-02-21, 12:57 PM
But then five color-coordinated teens will emerge to destroy them...

Seriously, the best way to defeat a shadow? Flash grenade should be enough.

Ultimately, the world will not be able to stand up to the magic a level 20 Wizard could produce, however we could probably give him a bigger challenge than he originally anticipates.

Also, the Redneck South would likely still be in rebellion, as they clearly have the Mindless trait and so immune to mind-affecting spells because they simply don't have a mind to dominate.

are you suggesting rednecks are in fact constructs?

JaxGaret
2009-02-21, 12:58 PM
The question really should be "How low level of a Wizard could dominate the world?".

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-21, 01:06 PM
are you suggesting rednecks are in fact constructs?

No, not constructs... vermin

JaxGaret
2009-02-21, 01:07 PM
No, not constructs... vermin

Or Undead?

J-H
2009-02-21, 01:13 PM
Make those kinds of jokes about any other cultural or ethnic group and you'd be condemned as a racist.

elliott20
2009-02-21, 01:13 PM
The question really should be "How low level of a Wizard could dominate the world?".

now THAT would be a more interesting question. The thing is though, we're back to the same question Shneeky asked. What kind of cheese is allowed here?

JaxGaret
2009-02-21, 01:16 PM
now THAT would be a more interesting question. The thing is though, we're back to the same question Shneeky asked. What kind of cheese is allowed here?

Pretty much everything that's not loop cheese should be fine, right?

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 01:21 PM
Pretty much everything that's not loop cheese should be fine, right?

So no Gate, no Enervation to create Shadows, etc.
Anything that creates a loop is not allowed then.
Since Shadows create more Shadows that makes it a loop.

herrhauptmann
2009-02-21, 01:21 PM
Because really, the 20th level wizard goes and gains some XP, becomes epic, gets epic wizardry, and breaks the universe.

There's a longwinded article that places even the most exceptional people in the real world at about 5th level (Einstein as a 5th level expert).

Based on that, I have to wonder how much XP a 20th level character would gain from killing them. And how long it would take to gain the 20,000 he needs for epic.

As far as tactics, well the wizard could do the locate city bomb trick close to a dozen times a day. (just using his first level spell slots) Even more if he has a ring of wizardry.
With that he could take out every major US city in a week, all the major military installations could go in a single day. (Minor bases include the air strips that hold one or two squadrons of planes for the navy)

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 01:33 PM
So no Gate, no Enervation to create Shadows, etc.
Anything that creates a loop is not allowed then.
Since Shadows create more Shadows that makes it a loop.

Shadows making more shadows isn't an infinite loop because you need the shadows to kill something to make more shadows. The prohibition against loops is to rule out things like Pun-Pun and chaingating.

So, anyone know the lowest level you can make a shadow from scratch? I'd be thinking level 9, for summon undead V. If no summoning then level 15 for create greater undead.

Enervation makes Wights, not Shadows. If we're going down the Wight route, then level 7 is all you need.

Harperfan7
2009-02-21, 01:52 PM
You can't kill everybody in the world with a shadow.

Take china for instance. If you killed one person per second, it would take you over 32 years to get rid of china, and that's if they didn't reproduce while you were doing it.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 01:55 PM
Technically, it would be the clone that stays in the demi-plane, since it only awakens when the original dies. However, since he's level 20, the wizard is better off using astral projection, which causes no level loss when the projection dies and copies all his gear, too.
Other than the costly components... although a "jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp" and a silver bar with 5 gp should be possible (although not easy - that's one valuable gemstone!) to obtain. Not really needed, though - even Core, a Ring of Invisibility, the Greater Invisibility spell, Dimension Door, and Teleport can get you basically anywhere you need to go for Dominate Person... and Contingency will get you out of there.

The 20th level Wizard could rule the world almost trivially (and Permanently, branching out of Core and using Mindrape). It would be easy to rule the world for a Wizard-15 (Contingency for escaping if something goes sour), and would be feasible as early as 9th (none of the required spells are over 5th).

As early as 7th, a Wizard could kill every living person on the planet (enervation for the Wight Apocolypse).

At 5th (Suggestion), a Wizard could pretty much control "local" politics on any issue that mattered ("local" being "wherever the Wizard happens to be" ... and the Wizard can book a plane flight just like anyone else). For that matter, a few well-timed Charm Person spells (1st!) could get the Wizard a pretty high seat in government.


how easy for him to take over the world? as everyone here has said, fairly easy. I mean, if we are not aware of him or magic, and we have no defense against it, he pretty much will have no problem what so ever bending the world to his will. The question here is how long he'll hold onto it.

He could, of course, systematically mindrape and brainwash every figure of importance in the world, and with a little bit of proper protection, he can pretty much do so unimpeded. But he would at some point have to deal with unrest and all that. No he won't. That's what his Mindraped & Minionized specialists (M&Ms) are for. If one of his M&Ms gets put out of power, he just M&Ms whoever replaces the minion. He just needs to keep things stable enough that his M&Ms aren't getting toppled regularly... and his M&Ms can deal with that. Unless he's stupid, the average person would never actually know that the Wizard-20 took over - the only people who'd know would be the M&Ms under his thrall.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 01:56 PM
You can't kill everybody in the world with a shadow.

Take china for instance. If you killed one person per second, it would take you over 32 years to get rid of china, and that's if they didn't reproduce while you were doing it.

Recall that people drained to 0 by a Shadow become Shadows themselves...

Same with Wights.

Harperfan7
2009-02-21, 01:57 PM
oh, my bad.

MCerberus
2009-02-21, 02:00 PM
You can't kill everybody in the world with a shadow.

Take china for instance. If you killed one person per second, it would take you over 32 years to get rid of china, and that's if they didn't reproduce while you were doing it.

Compound interest is the most powerful force in the world. Paraphrased from Einstein because I don't have the right quote on me. It's not that one shadow kills all these people, it's that you have shadows replicating themselves while killing in powers of two.

Oh, and at about the 10,000 mark I think mass hysteria would set in to the point where the wizard can manipulate people into accepting him as supreme overlord for fixing the shadow problem.

monty
2009-02-21, 02:04 PM
The wizard cast Iron Body on himself, Teleports to the moon, constructs a secret moonbase from Walls of Stone and Walls of Force, and plots his apocolyptic dinosaur-werewolf desertification from there.
Because having a moonbase is way cooler than some silly pocket-plane; all the other wizards have those.

He'd have to compete with Dracula, though. And Dracula probably has defenses against a wizard.

Diagoras
2009-02-21, 02:05 PM
A little loophole I think everyone's missed, that might answer this question in the favor of good old Terra (rah rah!).

We're assuming magic exists on our world in this, while most cross-over games I've seen have assumed that our Universe is either completely non-magical, or sometimes even rabidly anti-magical.

I mean, look at the d20 universe, where magic is often hiding behind every rock. Compared to that, it seems obvious that the only force in our Universe is the cold laws of physics.

So, assuming that magic doesn't exist (here), our wizard will arrive only to lose all his power and the ability to ever return home. Then he's eaten by a pack of vicious gophers.

Don't mess with Earth!

chiasaur11
2009-02-21, 02:08 PM
He'd have to compete with Dracula, though. And Dracula probably has defenses against a wizard.

If moonbase then Doctor McNinja (Or marvel universe). And the good Doctor could probably beat an epic wizard.

monty
2009-02-21, 02:11 PM
If moonbase then Doctor McNinja (Or marvel universe). And the good Doctor could probably beat an epic wizard.

Well, they did take out a ghost wizard, but it was probably a lot weaker with that LA. Also, knife-eye attack!

OneFamiliarFace
2009-02-21, 02:13 PM
So, assuming that magic doesn't exist (here), our wizard will arrive only to lose all his power and the ability to ever return home. Then he's eaten by a pack of vicious gophers.

Don't mess with Earth!

This.

You'd think with all his crazy divinations, he would have picked a planet with at least a little magic. Then, you'd think the aliens would pick a planet not composed of 80-90% of the stuff which is deadly poison to them. No accounting for taste I guess.

Mad Wizard
2009-02-21, 02:14 PM
A little loophole I think everyone's missed, that might answer this question in the favor of good old Terra (rah rah!).

We're assuming magic exists on our world in this, while most cross-over games I've seen have assumed that our Universe is either completely non-magical, or sometimes even rabidly anti-magical.

I mean, look at the d20 universe, where magic is often hiding behind every rock. Compared to that, it seems obvious that the only force in our Universe is the cold laws of physics.

So, assuming that magic doesn't exist (here), our wizard will arrive only to lose all his power and the ability to ever return home. Then he's eaten by a pack of vicious gophers.

Don't mess with Earth!

While this is a good point, I think for the purposes of the discussion we're ignoring this and assuming that his magic still works, but no one else can cast spells.

Flickerdart
2009-02-21, 02:16 PM
and the Wizard can book a plane flight just like anyone else
Can he really? I imagine a Greyhawk wizard trying to book a plane flight as the most hilarious scene ever. I mean, he first has to find out that planes exist, and then that they're not dragons. And then he needs a passport, of which he has little understanding as well. And then the metal detectors would go wild over everything he's got on him. Maybe he has a dagger hidden in his shoe just in case, and gets thoroughly impressed by the divination magic of the security staff.

Sure, eventually he'll figure it all out, but he would stick out like a sore thumb if he ever tried, even with Disguise Self to lose the robe and wizard hat.

"I should very much like to purchase a ride on this metal dragon."
"Er, sure. Two hundred dollars. Will that be cash or charge? No, sir, those are not legal tender. No, sir, that is not a passport. That is...what does it say, "character sheet"? Sir, is this some sort of joke?"

Zeful
2009-02-21, 02:35 PM
Can a 20th level wizard dominate the earth. The depends how he goes about it. The overconfident evil villain route will get him killed because once he's enslaved the earth he will assume a total victory and not bother using his divinations to find the rebel with the series of phosphorus grenades hidden under his clothes that just walked in to the Clone room, or find out that his cook rigged the table with more of the same grenades.

If he's not overconfident, then he'll be invincible.

As for lowest level? 1, the spell Hypnotism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnotism.htm).

Teron
2009-02-21, 02:37 PM
Amusing though that scenario is, I think we're all assuming he starts with a few months of divinations in a safe place and has a good grasp of everything that matters by the time he takes action. Also, don't forget that a level 20 wizard has something like 24 Int at the very least; by RAW, Einstein couldn't come close to that unless he had some kind of genius template or something.

As for a passport, one of many possible solutions would be to steal one and alter self into its owner.

Diagoras
2009-02-21, 02:38 PM
You'd think with all his crazy divinations, he would have picked a planet with at least a little magic. Then, you'd think the aliens would pick a planet not composed of 80-90% of the stuff which is deadly poison to them. No accounting for taste I guess.

Well, he'd actually arguably be unable to detect or enter our Universe, as magic would not allow you to do either. Not sure about that one though, it may only get negated on entry.

chiasaur11
2009-02-21, 02:39 PM
Well, they did take out a ghost wizard, but it was probably a lot weaker with that LA. Also, knife-eye attack!

No, that was Gordito who, as a sidekick, has a a contractual obligation to be slightly less awesome than the Doctor. And it took Gordito one shot.

Epic wizard is going down.

Deepblue706
2009-02-21, 02:40 PM
Wait, guys.

What if this already happened?

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 02:44 PM
Can he really? I imagine a Greyhawk wizard trying to book a plane flight as the most hilarious scene ever. I mean, he first has to find out that planes exist, and then that they're not dragons. And then he needs a passport, of which he has little understanding as well. And then the metal detectors would go wild over everything he's got on him. Maybe he has a dagger hidden in his shoe just in case, and gets thoroughly impressed by the divination magic of the security staff.

Sure, eventually he'll figure it all out, but he would stick out like a sore thumb if he ever tried, even with Disguise Self to lose the robe and wizard hat.

"I should very much like to purchase a ride on this metal dragon."
"Er, sure. Two hundred dollars. Will that be cash or charge? No, sir, those are not legal tender. No, sir, that is not a passport. That is...what does it say, "character sheet"? Sir, is this some sort of joke?"
Assuming he's evil, that doesn't pose a difficulty. Find someone with an appropriate ID and cash. Charm Person them, ask them all about it, take them out of the picture, Disguise Self into them, and proceed. For that matter, someone asking him "why don't you book a flight there?" when he mentions wanting to go somewhere would probably result in him getting where he wants to go.

Sebastian
2009-02-21, 02:55 PM
Is there anything on modern-day Earth that can, by RAW, kill a Shadow?

As a GM, I'd rule that energy weapons (lasers, flamethrowers, etc.) do. But, according to RAW, can even the biggest, hottest non-magical fire affect a Shadow?


What about holy water?



All you need to conquer Earth by force of arms is one Shadow. You don't even have to be close to 20th level for that. A real challenge is to see how far you can get at 3rd or 5th level. Our society has no defense whatsoever against Charm Person; we can't detect for it, cancel it, block it, or even officially acknowledge it exists.

I would not be so sure about that. I'm not sure about the source, but I seem to remember than sense motive can be used to find if someone is under external influences (charm, dominate, and so on) if follow that a good diplomacy check would be enough to, at least, give the victim an extra saving throw, of course it depend on which rules the real world works on. D20 modern? or is everyone a low level commoner/expert? or something else again.

Hawriel
2009-02-21, 02:58 PM
Well Im just going to go against the D&D wizard love that every one on these boards have. Mostly because this is really a wizard vs nation of fighters argument. D&D nerds can never have the fighter actualy win. The wizard would be killed. Shot down in a hail of multi calliber gunfire. Blink and invisability will only work so far. The odds of him being hit are very high due to real weapon rates of fire. The miss chance would be rolled on individual bullets. The first time he goes up against a group of peaple with automatic weapons he is toast.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-21, 03:00 PM
Well Im just going to go against the D&D wizard love that every one on these boards have. Mostly because this is really a wizard vs nation of fighters argument. D&D nerds can never have the fighter actualy win. The wizard would be killed. Shot down in a hail of multi calliber gunfire. Blink and invisability will only work so far. The odds of him being hit are very high due to real weapon rates of fire. The piss chance would be rolled on individual bullets. The first time he goes up against a group of peaple with automatic weapons he is toast.

Not to be too rude, but when was the last time you saw a +1 Ghost Touch AK-47? A simple Ghostform spell will make the wizard completely immune to anything in our world that could harm him. So could Lesser Ironguard, Ironguard, and even a mere Deflect Arrows. For that matter, anytime he sees a group of people with automatica weapons, he can launch a Fireball from 4000 feet away with perfect accuracy to annihilate them.

It's also Game stats vs. Game Stats. You can't confine a wizard to D&D rules while using real-world weapon statistics, you have to use the given rules for machine guns and such in stat books.

Aron Times
2009-02-21, 03:04 PM
Barack Obama uses Diplomancy (+100000000 modifier) to convince the wizard to become a US citizen. USA wins.

Flickerdart
2009-02-21, 03:10 PM
Well Im just going to go against the D&D wizard love that every one on these boards have. Mostly because this is really a wizard vs nation of fighters argument. D&D nerds can never have the fighter actualy win. The wizard would be killed. Shot down in a hail of multi calliber gunfire. Blink and invisability will only work so far. The odds of him being hit are very high due to real weapon rates of fire. The miss chance would be rolled on individual bullets. The first time he goes up against a group of peaple with automatic weapons he is toast.
Oh yes, because the United States military is deployed across the country to mow down LARPers. And that's assuming the Wizard was stupid enough to leave his old clothes on (maybe they're magic gear, that's always nice). The Wizard isn't going to walk into a military base and start smashing heads. He's going to Teleport into the Oval Office while invisible and Mindrape the President. If his 30 INT is used properly, not a single bullet will ever be fired.

OneFamiliarFace
2009-02-21, 03:54 PM
Oh yes, because the United States military is deployed across the country to mow down LARPers. And that's assuming the Wizard was stupid enough to leave his old clothes on (maybe they're magic gear, that's always nice). The Wizard isn't going to walk into a military base and start smashing heads. He's going to Teleport into the Oval Office while invisible and Mindrape the President. If his 30 INT is used properly, not a single bullet will ever be fired.

But, as we know, all leaders of fantasy nations are either A) high level aristocrats or B) high level paladins. Both will have decent will saves (or will defenses), and the president is the head of (one of) the most powerful nation (in fantasy terms, which usually seem to go by political influence and military might), meaning he is one of the highest level characters in the world.

I'd say he has a decent chance of saving right past all this teleport/invisible business. And, once the cretin wizard reveals his hand, it's all over for him, since he would have to learn how to cripple our communications systems without learning new spells (since he has no access to libraries or anything now.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-21, 03:57 PM
But national leaders always dump Wisdom in favor of Charisma, everyone knows that! Where else would they get those sky-high Bluff and Diplomacy modifier?

Plus, there's no save involved in Teleport or Invisibility, only against the Mindrape.

EDIT: I don't think being the president makes you a high-level character - more likely that being elected gives the Presidential template with all of its excellent bonuses.

Flickerdart
2009-02-21, 03:57 PM
Unless he has True Seeing, the wizard's target is powerless against him, and even if they pass the cheesed-out save, will most likely dismiss it as a migraine or something. Then the Wizard can try again a bunch more times until he runs out of spells, which should be more than enough to succeed.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 04:00 PM
Are we sure there are no Psionics, Truenamers, etc?

I mean, Buddha, Mohammad, etc all performed magical feats like Mr. M made himself present in two places at once.
Yes, they are stories and none of us were to know if Mr.B or Mr. M did those feats, but still they are known.

If so, then who is to say the world has none defending it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-21, 04:03 PM
Also, the Redneck South would likely still be in rebellion, as they clearly have the Mindless trait and so immune to mind-affecting spells because they simply don't have a mind to dominate.Did you really have to go there? I mean, really. What purpose did that serve?

The Glyphstone
2009-02-21, 04:09 PM
Are we sure there are no Psionics, Truenamers, etc?

I mean, Buddha, Mohammad, etc all performed magical feats like Mr. M made himself present in two places at once.
Yes, they are stories and none of us were to know if Mr.B or Mr. M did those feats, but still they are known.

If so, then who is to say the world has none defending it.

I think we're avoiding that line of discussion to prevent the thread from drifting into religion, which is board-banned. The thread as it stands is getting dangerously close to politics already.

RS14
2009-02-21, 04:38 PM
But national leaders always dump Wisdom in favor of Charisma, everyone knows that! Where else would they get those sky-high Bluff and Diplomacy modifier?

Plus, there's no save involved in Teleport or Invisibility, only against the Mindrape.

EDIT: I don't think being the president makes you a high-level character - more likely that being elected gives the Presidential template with all of its excellent bonuses.

I'm not so sure. :smallbiggrin:
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/oneshot/reagansmash5on2dp.jpg

chiasaur11
2009-02-21, 04:45 PM
Let's not forget this little number:

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/3841/751/1600/562942/TBP-Lincoln03.jpg

Abe Lincoln, people. Abe Lincoln.

Flickerdart
2009-02-21, 05:01 PM
Are we sure there are no Psionics, Truenamers, etc?

I mean, Buddha, Mohammad, etc all performed magical feats like Mr. M made himself present in two places at once.
Yes, they are stories and none of us were to know if Mr.B or Mr. M did those feats, but still they are known.

If so, then who is to say the world has none defending it.
None of those people are alive. Unless the Pope is a 17th level cleric...

Ravens_cry
2009-02-21, 05:05 PM
Let's not forget this little number:

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/3841/751/1600/562942/TBP-Lincoln03.jpg

Abe Lincoln, people. Abe Lincoln.
Actually, I think Mr. Lincoln was better known for his wrestling prowess. (http://home.att.net/~rjnorton/Lincoln48.html) He was still kick ass mind you.

Sebastian
2009-02-21, 05:06 PM
Can he really? I imagine a Greyhawk wizard trying to book a plane flight as the most hilarious scene ever. I mean, he first has to find out that planes exist, and then that they're not dragons. And then he needs a passport, of which he has little understanding as well. And then the metal detectors would go wild over everything he's got on him. Maybe he has a dagger hidden in his shoe just in case, and gets thoroughly impressed by the divination magic of the security staff.

Sure, eventually he'll figure it all out, but he would stick out like a sore thumb if he ever tried, even with Disguise Self to lose the robe and wizard hat.

"I should very much like to purchase a ride on this metal dragon."
"Er, sure. Two hundred dollars. Will that be cash or charge? No, sir, those are not legal tender. No, sir, that is not a passport. That is...what does it say, "character sheet"? Sir, is this some sort of joke?"

We are talking about a 20+ INT person, with tongues/read languages he can understand our language perfectly, with charm person he can ask question to anyone without raise (too many) suspects and with dominate he can have handy, disposable minions, he only need to find out about the internet or just a public library and he can have all the information he need, if he is in trouble he can simply turn invisible or teleport away, or disguise self as someone else.

As long as he is not in an hurry and don't make stupid mistakes take control of the USA or even of the whole world should not be too hard if that is what he want.

Flickerdart
2009-02-21, 05:11 PM
We are talking about a 20+ INT person, with tongues/read languages he can understand our language perfectly, with charm person he can ask question to anyone without raise suspect and with dominate he can have handy, disposable minions, he only need to find out about the internet or just a public library and he can have all the information he need, if he is in trouble he can simply turn invisible or teleport away, or disguise self as someone else.

As long as he is not in an hurry and don't make stupid mistakes take control of the USA or even of the whole world should not be too hard if that is what he want.
Not even the smartest person is immune to assumptions. The wizard doesn't know things work differently, and he has no reason to assume that some things work the way they do. He doesn't have basic knowledge necessary to understand things we take for granted. His education is lacking compared to an elementary school kid. A high INT means nothing at all. Furthermore, he will assume other things, such as a metallic flying form is a dragon. He's not going to ask. He's going to slay it. Neither will he ask about laws, because there are hardly any where he comes from. He's not going to interrogate people about how things work, the same way as you wouldn't memorize the code of law from a foreign country even if you spoke the language.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-21, 05:14 PM
I'm not so sure. :smallbiggrin:



You'd have a point...if the very next few panels of that comic strip weren't a reveal that:

that's actually a shapeshifted Jon J'honn the Martian Manhunter disguising himself as Reagan.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 05:20 PM
None of those people are alive. Unless the Pope is a 17th level cleric...

The new pope? Nah, the old one maybe.

The drawback is most Wizards have low Wisdom because Wisdom does nothing for them.
Int may be learning, but Wisdom is common sense/good ideas.

So I think the Wiz will make a few mistakes assuming that his world acts like ours.
Probably waste a spell on a Globe of Invulnerability (since he doesn't know we use guns).
He will escape most likely, but he will be surprised we beat his defenes.

monty
2009-02-21, 05:24 PM
"I should very much like to purchase a ride on this metal dragon."
"Er, sure. Two hundred dollars. Will that be cash or charge? No, sir, those are not legal tender. No, sir, that is not a passport. That is...what does it say, "character sheet"? Sir, is this some sort of joke?"

I imagine his gold would be very nice tender. According to the Internet, current gold prices are roughly $1000 per (Troy) ounce. There are 50 gold coins per (Avoirdupois) pound. With 1 pound ~ 14.583 Troy ounces, that comes out to just under $300 per gold piece (feel free to correct me if I did that wrong).

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 05:27 PM
I imagine his gold would be very nice tender. According to the Internet, current gold prices are roughly $1000 per (Troy) ounce. There are 50 gold coins per (Avoirdupois) pound. With 1 pound ~ 14.583 Troy ounces, that comes out to just under $300 per gold piece (feel free to correct me if I did that wrong).

But how quick will people believe that these are real coins and not fake money.
If he takes to a dealer/Pawn Shop: He'd get an okay deal, but to a random person?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-21, 05:34 PM
But how quick will people believe that these are real coins and not fake money.
If he takes to a dealer/Pawn Shop: He'd get an okay deal, but to a random person?

Furthermore, since America went off the gold standard some hundred or so years ago, Gold is not legal tender. You need to take it to a jewler/pawn shop to get it exchanged for cash. Charm Person will help in getting the best deal possible.

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-21, 05:34 PM
Let's not forget this little number:

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/3841/751/1600/562942/TBP-Lincoln03.jpg

Abe Lincoln, people. Abe Lincoln.

The power of Abe Lincoln depends on how high level a rogue John Wilkes Booth was. :smalltongue:Do you think he shouted 'Sneak Attack'?

Starbuck_II
2009-02-21, 05:44 PM
The power of Abe Lincoln depends on how high level a rogue John Wilkes Booth was. :smalltongue:Do you think he shouted 'Sneak Attack'?

Nah, Abe just rolled a 1 on his Saving throw. Remember every time you take 50 damage from one source: you need to roll or die.

Sneak Attack + Crit with a x3 bullet!

Assuming Bullet deals 2d8, rolling max is up to 48 add in 2 more and you have 50.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-21, 05:45 PM
The power of Abe Lincoln depends on how high level a rogue John Wilkes Booth was. :smalltongue:Do you think he shouted 'Sneak Attack'?

Unless Booth had Telling Blow, since it is clear he critted with his shot (HEADSHOT!!!), which would enable him to apply sneak attack damage even to a person with Improved Uncanny Dodge on a critical hit.

Nightson
2009-02-21, 06:19 PM
He's a wizard, he'd find the nearest library and plunk down until he had a decent idea of what the world was like. If he gets into any trouble he can go invisible or just change his appearance or teleport depending on his level.

I mean are we really suggesting he's going to be thrown by the idea of different legal tender, different laws and while he may think most mechanical devices are magical at first when he opens up a book about them he's going to figure it out.

Sebastian
2009-02-21, 06:27 PM
Furthermore, since America went off the gold standard some hundred or so years ago, Gold is not legal tender. You need to take it to a jewler/pawn shop to get it exchanged for cash. Charm Person will help in getting the best deal possible.

The problem is, so much gold it is suspect by itself, especially because he can't justify its provenience.

The point is how well this wizard know our world? He is just ended here by chance and have no idea where it is? Or it picked our world for some reason and studied it for a while before to strike? A simple detect magic would tell him that planes, cars and computers are not magical, at least not magical in ther sense he mean it and just this should be enough to make him go around very cautiously.

About the books, thinking about it they could end making him even more confused, just think if he ends in the fantasy section of the library, or even worse, where they keep the roleplaying supplements. Or he read one of those book that are wrote to look as they are real (world war Z, for example) :)

On second thought, this could not be as easy as I believed.

Myrmex
2009-02-21, 06:32 PM
Wall of Iron uses components easily found on Earth. Continually cast Wall of Iron, sell the iron, get rich, and buy everyone.

Turning gold into iron doesn't strike me as a particularly brilliant way to crash an economy.

Nightson
2009-02-21, 06:39 PM
About the books, thinking about it they could end making him even more confused, just think if he ends in the fantasy section of the library, or even worse, where they keep the roleplaying supplements. Or he read one of those book that are wrote to look as they are real (world war Z, for example) :)

On second thought, this could not be as easy as I believed.

Comprehend Languages (which he would have to have up) would let him know what fiction and nonfiction are. And it's not like he can't charm a few people and quiz them to confirm things.

Behold_the_Void
2009-02-21, 06:41 PM
You underestimate the influence of Ted Turner & Rupert Murdock, whose power is dwarfed by the control certain other governments (like, say, China/North Korea) have over their media. I fear you put too much faith in the First Amendment, which has unarguably seen its limits tested in the last decade. What chance does the alternative press have against an arcane demigod with autocratic/apocalyptic designs? Answer = NONE.

Quid Est Demonstratem.

I think not. I'm a journalist myself, and while the two have considerable influence, they aren't EVERYTHING. The media is hardly stifled that easily. Would it be more difficult? Yes. However, that kind of news WILL get out, some way or another. That's how it works in the business. There's always someone willing to stand up and report it.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-21, 06:45 PM
Most wizards would use divinations to see what's going on in unfamiliar lands. So would this wizard. And in any case, what does it matter? If the world rebels against him, he can put it down with a shadow apocalypse.

Roland St. Jude
2009-02-21, 06:48 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Real world religion and politics are inappropriate topics on this board, even in relation to gaming issues. Please refrain from discussions of these topics.