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Graymayre
2009-02-21, 12:44 PM
I've been looking for a nice race (that isn't human) for my artificer character. There can't be a Level adjustment, and I would prefer that the stats are posted here.

Your help is appreciated fellow playgrounders.

P.S. What do you think of me crafting tiny constructs with compartments, trapping the compartments, and having the construct open its compartment in front of enemies?

wadledo
2009-02-21, 12:47 PM
Warforged.
Just, warforged.

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 12:48 PM
I'd love to, but I forgot to mention that warforged is restricted for this campaign (we are not actually playing in Eberron).

Advocate
2009-02-21, 12:49 PM
Is there some compelling reason why you should not be human? Because that's the winner right there.

What else are you going to be? Dwarves lose on an important stat and are slow, Elves lose on an important stat, halflings and gnomes are slow, half orcs lose way too much, half elves are just bad...

The slow part is important because it is less likely you will be flying at all times like other casters, and even when you are you're still slower and you depend on your standard action do something, move action move to not get mauled, otherwise known as caster style defense. Also, it is likely your attacks will have a very short range, and you need to be able to get into that range quickly. Low CL + Close range wands will do that.

By the way, Warforged Artificer = trap.

JellyPooga
2009-02-21, 12:50 PM
Kobold...because if you're thinking about traps, you're thinking about playing a Kobold :smallbiggrin: Seriously though, the Kobold mindset is perfect for an Artificer that likes to dabble in both magical and mechanical doodahs.

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 12:51 PM
I can handle being a human, but I've played one... pretty much every time I've ever made a character.

I was looking at kobold for flavor reasons; but unless I made a toned down, more even ability bonused homebrew version, that's not looking like a good pick.

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 12:55 PM
Strongheart Halfling. Those are awesome artificers, quite capable of beating Humans in that area (although they only move 20', but them's the breaks; they do get small size bonuses and all that).

Also, Warforged Artificer is just fine. Doesn't have Int-penalty, has that "enchant himself"-crap going on and two solid substitution levels. The Cha-penalty is really hardly relevant; you really don't need more than 12 anyways.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-21, 12:56 PM
The Cha penalty may be an issue, and your DM may not allow the race anyway, but my Fenneckin race, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104140 , may be a good pick for the Int and Dex boosts (and you could take that feat which grants +2 to Spellcraft and UMD checks anyway if you were allowed to use this race).

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 01:02 PM
By the way, Warforged Artificer = trap.

whats wrong with warforged artificer? cant you spend the night crafting items?

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 01:03 PM
What are the Strongheart halflings stats?

any suggestions on homebrewing the kobold race to be a little more even statwise?

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 01:06 PM
Strongheart Halfling is like a standard Halfling but loses the save bonuses and instead gains a bonus feat like Human. They're from...Player's Guide to Faerun.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-21, 01:11 PM
My Kobold variant has +2 Dx and Cha, -2 Str and Con, 30' speed, small size, +1 Natural Armour, Darkvision 60', and +2 to all Trapmaking, Mining and Search checks. Did you think my Fenneckin race would work well?

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 01:18 PM
It's a good race, but I have to be honest and say it just isn't right for my character (flavor reasons).

for your kobold variant, I'm pretty sure he should have light-sensitivity if he has all of those alternate things.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-21, 01:25 PM
I don;t see any reason to include that in my version (while the Darkvision and +1 NA are useful, their stats balance out and the skill bonuses aren't that useful for the most part). What sort of character are you planning on making? (I'm just curious because of what you said about my race not fitting flavourwise).

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 01:35 PM
I still have to make a story for the guy. (the campaign is a few sessions away)

I do know that I planned a little bit of making trap monstrosities (like that trap golem I mentioned in the first post). Other than that, he would focus on summoning, battlefield control, and "investamagation".

Mindset of character: a cross between Sherlock Holmes and Deekin (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Deekin_Scalesinger) (of Neverwinter Nights fame)

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-21, 01:37 PM
Thanks for explaining. Kobold would fit much better then Fenneckins for that (I suppose it could be argued that they would set traps in their burrows, but I didn;t give their fluff that much thought:smalltongue:).

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 01:58 PM
Desert Kobold would be doable. Heck, make it Dragonwrought Venerable and it will not-suck at: -4 Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +1 Wis, +3 Cha - would also have the Trapmaking bonuses and all that.

That said, Strongheart Halfling would still prolly be better due to the effective two more feats (one bonus and one from not needing to pick up something like Dragonwrought).

shadow_archmagi
2009-02-21, 02:25 PM
Thri-kreen! Because nothing beats have extra arms.

ocato
2009-02-21, 02:32 PM
Dwarf is actually a fine choice. The speed is more or less unimportant because, at least in my experience, Artificers are ranged characters. Infuse that crossbow, it is now your boomstick. The Charisma drop is sort of not as big a hindrance as you might think. Don't let the ebcs trick you, the primary stat for an Artificer is Int. -1 to your potential UMD when skill checks are so easy to inflate is really not even a minor problem except maybe during the levels when you more or less can't/won't have UMD as a major character function anyway.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 03:10 PM
whats wrong with warforged artificer? cant you spend the night crafting items?

Several things.

First, penalty to important stat. Doesn't matter later, when you can easily auto pass but does matter at first, when you need to hit fairly high skill checks to do your thing, make stuff, whatever.

Second, the primary reason why it is chosen is some perceived better ability to heal themselves. This does not actually exist. More on that below.

Third, apparently the second reason why it is chosen is crafting at night. This doesn't work, because you can only spend 8 hours a day crafting without houserules regardless, and you can only travel 8 hours in a day without forced march rules. That leaves 8 hours for making stuff. More on that below as well.

Now. At level 3 Artificers can several important things.

First, CWI. This can be used to craft Healing Belts for yourself and the whole party. You now can heal 4d8-6d8 a day, every day depending on efficiency.

Second, 2nd level infusions. This can be used to get Armor Enhancement: Greater Healing. For 50 gold, you get to Swift action heal 3d8+15. Twice. Also, if you drop into negatives and have a use left, it automatically activates.

At level 3, 2d8 healing is decent out of combat. 3d8+15 is amazing, even in combat, and especially for a Swift action. At higher levels, both of the above become less useful, but it actually takes a while for Greater Healing to be outdated, even in combat simply because it's a Swift action. By the time they do start wearing out you can start throwing around Heal spells.

Note however the names. Healing Belt. Greater Healing enchantment. Not Repairing, Healing. Which means if you are a Warforged, these have at best, half effect on you. If you're some sort of living being, they work normally. Also, the best reason to be a Warforged is to save a fair bit of cash and slots to get what is effectively Heavy Fortification for a single feat. It makes you immune to healing entirely. Not that many would bother with it if it only does half anyways, but if you are going the expected route you do not even get that much.

Without house rules, this makes a Warforged Artificer inferior to a non Warforged Artificer for even that purpose at levels 3-20.

Also, at all levels, including 1 and 2 you can use wands. Yes, you can get wands at level 1 by pooling gold. If you are not a Warforged, you can enjoy the same CLW wands as everyone else. Or better yet, Lesser Vigor. If you are, you need a special wand just for you, and it sucks to be you if you go down as you are likely the only one who can heal you. Since healing at these levels only happens out of combat and in emergencies, but does need to happen in those cases, anything that hinders your ability to do so is objectively bad.

As such, they are also inferior at level 1 and 2, and thus, every level.

It's also very important to remember that as a living creature, the Cleric can heal you, the guy with the Lesser Vigor wand can heal you, and so forth. As a Warforged, you're probably the only one that can heal you, unless the entire party goes that route.

I encounter this all the time with my Warforged. He's a beatstick, and not an Artificer, but he is the cohort of an Artificer. When he goes into melee, he gets smacked around. My main character is the only one in the entire group who can heal him, so when his health starts dropping she has to take time off from casting Greater Dispels, Spiked Tentacles, and so forth to fix him up, instead of having the party Cleric, or Favored Soul throw a Heal on him instead. This generally results in the now not locked down enemies pressing the attack, which means things could get ugly. If he ever got smashed up when my main character was low or out of infusions, or incapacitated or whatever he'd be screwed. Now for him, being a Warforged still works out to be generally advantageous because they protect each other, he gets his cheap crit immunity, and the DM allowed a house rule to get the Powerful Build ability to reflect bigger, stronger Warforged. Also, he doesn't really have alternative means of getting the immunities. If he were a stand alone character, even if he could repair himself he'd be screwed. It's ok to have cohorts dependent on a main character since that's the whole point. It's not ok to have main characters with no fallback options for such things. This is why Warforged Artificers don't work.

Now, there is a way to craft all night, but it's something any Artificer can do. At level 4 you get the ability to craft a Homunculus. Make yourself a Dedicated Wright, which is priced just right for this point in time. This is also the level where you really start getting into crafting. Now, spend one hour beginning the process of crafting any item. Go do your thing. It still takes the normal time to finish, but doesn't take your time. If you want to take your little buddy with you, just set up his workshop in an extradimensional space. You literally have an item factory in your pocket. Enjoy.

Lastly, 'enchanting himself' is actually a bad thing. See, normally Artificer infusions go on your items. So if you cast Bull's Strength on yourself, you have a Belt of Strength +4 for 5 minutes. If anyone else cast Bull's Strength on themselves, they'd have +4 Strength for 5 minutes.

Two (three) words as to why this is a critically important distinction: (Greater) Dispel Magic.

If you are hit by a targeted dispel, any and every spell on your person is subject to being removed. Your items are not touched, unless the item itself is the target instead of you. Therefore a spell cast upon an item is objectively superior, as an enemy would have to specifically target that item with a Dispel, which would require foreknowledge of which one to aim at in order to have any chance at all to remove it.

'Enchanting yourself' removes one of your own biggest advantages, in that it takes a Chained Dispel to actually remove your buffs with any reliability. Of course, that will also turn off all your items, so you have worse problems but there you go.

Kobolds... only work with Venerable, Dragonwrought, Loredrake shenanigans. Seeing as very few DMs will actually allow that, just forget about it. Loredrake does nothing for you anyways since you are not a Sorcerer. Also, Con penalties, unless you do the desert thing. To the light sensitivity guy: What's the point? You can negate light sensitivity for 1 silver piece. All it does is trick people that don't know you can negate it for 1 silver piece that it is a meaningful penalty.

The reason why speed is important is because you do need to stay at range - but not a long range, because the best spells are Close range. So you need to be able to move around enough to get away from enemies that bother you, and to get to enemies in general. Because, like a caster you can take a move action without making yourself irrelevant this round you should take advantage of that, which you can't do if you're slow. You're also less likely to be flying, see above post on that.

Remember, you can automatically negate most melee enemies simply by moving more than 5' in a round. If they come after you they can only hit once at most. Unless they're ToB, or have Pounce you can completely ignore them as a result. Because you are going the mobility defense route, you should take advantage of cheap stuff that helps in this regard.

Ring of Entropic Deflection + Quickness property on your armor + doing the above means that for 13,000 gold, half of all ranged attacks, including ranged touch attacks automatically miss you, and nothing short of an archer with a Seeking bow can negate this. Combine with simply moving to negate most of the melees, and you're one of the safer characters on the battlefield. Note that you will need to hit DC 15 Tumble checks to make it work, but this is easy to do, even at low levels and off of cross class ranks.

As for attacking, you are using wands. Maybe staves and scrolls and whatever later. Making your crossbow Bane: Whatever is a nice trick for the first two levels, but after that it becomes irrelevant. You have better things to do with your resources and actions, and using a crossbow in the first place interferes with that mobility based defense as you're just standing there, auto attacking for trivial damage.

Also, Artificers don't need Int that much. The infusions with a DC are lackluster at best, and will still have a low DC to make them unlikely to do even that much. 22 Int will give you a good amount of bonus infusions. But that's about it. That's just 16 and a +6 item.

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 04:26 PM
Lesser Vigor should work just fine on Warforged (unless using Greater Construct Essence). There's no notation in Fast Healing-description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing) that defines it as a Healing-school or supernatural effect, and Lesser Vigor just grants the ability so while the spell is...well, a spell, the effect is Ex. So as long as you don't pick Improved Resiliency, you'll be fine.

Warforged Artificers get effectively two free Substitutions on 1 and 4 (on 1, they lose nothing and on 4, they lose Craft Homunculus, which is included in Craft Construct anyways). The one on level 4 is awesome, making a ton of stuff twice cheaper to Craft. He also gets minor bonuses to boosting himself (extra CL is never amiss) and random healing (equal to his inexistent Charisma). Mostly, the awesome part about Warforged Artificers is the supercheap crafting of weapons, armor, constructs and all such.

Advocate
2009-02-21, 05:17 PM
Lesser Vigor should work just fine on Warforged (unless using Greater Construct Essence). There's no notation in Fast Healing-description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing) that defines it as a Healing-school or supernatural effect, and Lesser Vigor just grants the ability so while the spell is...well, a spell, the effect is Ex. So as long as you don't pick Improved Resiliency, you'll be fine.

Warforged Artificers get effectively two free Substitutions on 1 and 4 (on 1, they lose nothing and on 4, they lose Craft Homunculus, which is included in Craft Construct anyways). The one on level 4 is awesome, making a ton of stuff twice cheaper to Craft. He also gets minor bonuses to boosting himself (extra CL is never amiss) and random healing (equal to his inexistent Charisma). Mostly, the awesome part about Warforged Artificers is the supercheap crafting of weapons, armor, constructs and all such.

Ok, so Lesser Vigor still works, as long as you don't go with the main reason to be a Warforged. Craft Construct... take a look at what you can make with that sometime. If it's not 'randomly decides to kill anyone and everyone, including its maker after spending all that money on it' or 'as above, except it's permanently berserk' its 'spend a lot of money making something several levels lower than you, easily destroyed as a result'. Often, many or all of the above at once.

Minor CL boost when casting on self < immune to targeted dispels.

Also, being a Warforged costs you a feat, since you need to spend a feat in order to get your armor. What advantage does this actually have over a non Warforged, non human Artificer who spent a feat on Craft Construct instead? Both get the discounts after all. And if you don't take CC, you still get the discount on weapons and armor and such. A human Artificer can do it and still be a feat ahead. Even better.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 05:22 PM
Or you could, you know.
Not spend the feat on a different armor and get decent free armor.:smallconfused:

Edit: Wait, can't a Warforged artificer just cast Repair Light Damage on himself and never have to bother the cleric again?

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 05:26 PM
so why cant you be a warforged and have that wight work on a different magic item than the one you are working on? it seems like you would get magic items twice as fast.

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 05:57 PM
Also, being a Warforged costs you a feat, since you need to spend a feat in order to get your armor. What advantage does this actually have over a non Warforged, non human Artificer who spent a feat on Craft Construct instead? Both get the discounts after all. And if you don't take CC, you still get the discount on weapons and armor and such. A human Artificer can do it and still be a feat ahead. Even better.

You don't get the half XP price weapons, armor, constructs, etc. as a Human. As for Craft Construct, it allows crafting Effigies. As a char ops veteran, you should be aware of just what you can do with those. Also, you can easily craft a Greater Stone Golem on level 12; it's a reasonable meatshield on those levels and you can make it for 75k and it'll throw around DC31 Will save-or-sucks with 271 HP and magic immunity while acting as a perfectly fine controller with the 15' reach. Expensive, yes, but if you build it, it'll effectively be an extra character. You can make all those at half XP cost as a Warforged.

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 06:03 PM
Also, being a Warforged costs you a feat, since you need to spend a feat in order to get your armor. What advantage does this actually have over a non Warforged, non human Artificer who spent a feat on Craft Construct instead? Both get the discounts after all. And if you don't take CC, you still get the discount on weapons and armor and such. A human Artificer can do it and still be a feat ahead. Even better.

go dragonborn. you lose the plating and can wear armor. no feat required.

Myrmex
2009-02-21, 06:22 PM
Edit: Wait, can't a Warforged artificer just cast Repair Light Damage on himself and never have to bother the cleric again?

Yes.

Furthermore, the suite of immunities & resistances a warforged gets MORE than makes up for the cha penalty. -1 to UMD checks? That isn't going to matter past level 3, and as long as you're playing the deadly low levels, I'd rather have +2 con and all that sweet stuff living constructs get.

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 06:32 PM
all of this is very relevent to my thread, especially since I stated.



I'd love to, but I forgot to mention that warforged is restricted for this campaign (we are not actually playing in Eberron).
post #3 :smallwink:

kpenguin
2009-02-21, 06:37 PM
What's the campaign setting like?

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 06:41 PM
the DM's been somewhat vague about it, he's creating the world himself.

As of now, I know the basic logistics of the starting continent (those that live on this continent have no connection with other continents).

Relatively low magic setting (that's why I'm going to be an artificer :smallsmile:)

Diverse geometry, Orc kingdom inhabits the desert, not sure about much else.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 06:42 PM
Look in MM3, page 190.
Not eberron, technically.

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 06:55 PM
DM owns it.

I'll just put this to bed and say that I will not be playing a Warforged, even if I could. Honestly, it looks like this kobold variant is going to be my choice, provided the DM approves:

+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str
30ft speed
small size
+1 natural armor
Darkvision 60ft
+2 profession (mining)
+2 craft (traps)
+2 search
Light Sensitivity

comments?

Eldariel
2009-02-21, 07:33 PM
I still suggest a Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold by the books. Dragonwrought is a feat that makes a Kobold's type "Dragon", thus among other things, making them immune to aging-penalties. Desert Kobold has -2 to Wis instead of -2 Con (Unearthed Arcana, Races of the Dragon or some such). This gives you the following adjustments:

-4 Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +1 Wis, +3 Cha - at the price of your level 1 bonus feat. Dragon-type also grants you with some interesting benefits (although the biggest ones require form-altering magic, which I suggest against using), you can read here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType). Since you can't actually take racial HD, that part doesn't benefit you, but the traits do apply (Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, Immune to Magical Sleep & Paralysis).

And it's perfectly within the rules; in fact, pretty "basic" Kobold from Races of the Dragon (in the sense that a Dragonwrought Kobold is special and thus most like to become a PC). You can get Sundark Goggles for 10 gp; they allow you to ignore Light Sensitivity. And you get to look good in sunglasses! Those are also in Races of the Dragon. Although Desert Kobolds actually lack Light Sensitivity entirely (again, they live in a desert).


So the total package would be:

Small Dragon (Reptile)
-4 Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +1 Wis, +3 Cha

30' movement
Darkvision 60'
Low-Light Vision
+1 Natural Armor

Craft: Trapmaking always in class
+4 Racial to Craft: Trapmaking and Search (Desert Kobolds lack Profession: Mining bonuses for obvious reasons)
+2 to a skill determined by your Draconic Heritage (list of options on page 103 of Races of the Dragon)

Immunity to magical sleep effects & paralysis effects

Natural Weapons - 2x1d3 Claw, 1x1d4 Bite

Scales of the colour of your choice!

Also, thanks to Dragonwrought, even though you're "venerable", you're not actually very old compared to your entire lifetime. If you have a metallic dragon heritage, you'll live 10*Charisma years afterwards, so you'll easily be under ½-way through your life at 120 when you're Venerable (Chromatic ancestry only grants you 5*Cha life); Cha 14-16 with those bonuses is easy to achieve and gives you 140-160 more years to live. Again, Chromatic gets only half that and a chromatic dragonwrought venerable is already towards the last third of his life, but a metallic isn't even half-way through.

The fact that you still have so long to live explains why you start adventuring so "late" in your life; like an elf, you're still young for your own reckoning so you've also taken your time to learn your art. Really, compared to an Elf, you'd begin adventuring at about the same time as they, which makes you Venerable for a Kobold (and thus grants the associated bonuses), but young for a Dragonwrought Kobold.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-22, 02:18 AM
I still think Light Sensitivity is unnecessary for this. I gave my version +2 Cha because it fits in with the fact that Kobolds are descended from Dragons (I know Fennecking arguably get better stat bonuses then your Kobold, but the +2 Int bonus may be seen as much better then the +2 Cha by the DM*).

If I was the DM, I'd expect you to start at the youngest age due to classing hanging around until you gain mental stat bonuses as being cheesy and unrealistic.

(* I know that sounds hypocritical considering Fenneckin stats, but I tend to see stats as equal, especially since I expect people to RP mental stats).

Advocate
2009-02-22, 07:46 AM
Or you could, you know.
Not spend the feat on a different armor and get decent free armor.:smallconfused:

Edit: Wait, can't a Warforged artificer just cast Repair Light Damage on himself and never have to bother the cleric again?

If you consider 'decent' to be 'leather' go right ahead. Because it gives the same AC.

Been over repairing.


so why cant you be a warforged and have that wight work on a different magic item than the one you are working on? it seems like you would get magic items twice as fast.

This is not different that what a human could do. Even if that works, which I don't think it does. Also, if it did work, you could just make more wrights.


You don't get the half XP price weapons, armor, constructs, etc. as a Human. As for Craft Construct, it allows crafting Effigies. As a char ops veteran, you should be aware of just what you can do with those. Also, you can easily craft a Greater Stone Golem on level 12; it's a reasonable meatshield on those levels and you can make it for 75k and it'll throw around DC31 Will save-or-sucks with 271 HP and magic immunity while acting as a perfectly fine controller with the 15' reach. Expensive, yes, but if you build it, it'll effectively be an extra character. You can make all those at half XP cost as a Warforged.

75k... at level 12, when you have 88k total? I have no comment on Effigies, as I never bothered to look into him. However, dragging a Huge guy around a dungeon is not that easy. He's also slow, and prone to silly things like falling into pits. A greater stone golem is one of the better things he could make, granted since it doesn't have berserk and does have good stats but it still has too many critical flaws for the cost. Also, if you are familiar with the CO boards you should recognize the phrase 'Riding the Gravy Train'.

One more thing. The thing about common resistances and immunities is that intelligent creatures know what will not work well against you, or at all and just not do it. They will also know what will work and do that. So while it does mean the poison arrow guy can't bother you, it also means he won't waste his time trying in favor of just shooting at other people. After all, when's the last time you saw someone cast Sleep on an elf? Exactly.

Eldariel
2009-02-22, 08:30 AM
75k... at level 12, when you have 88k total? I have no comment on Effigies, as I never bothered to look into him. However, dragging a Huge guy around a dungeon is not that easy. He's also slow, and prone to silly things like falling into pits. A greater stone golem is one of the better things he could make, granted since it doesn't have berserk and does have good stats but it still has too many critical flaws for the cost. Also, if you are familiar with the CO boards you should recognize the phrase 'Riding the Gravy Train'.

The basic thing with Effigies is that you can stack any number of templates on them for insane stats. The price is derived off HD and size, so you can get away with a lot of stacking: see Mr. Roboto (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=530759&highlight=Mr.%20Roboto) for example.

As for the cost, I'm sure the rest of the party is willing to pay their part seeing that it'll be an addition to the party and you've been crafting their stuff anyways. Not to mention, an Artificer in the party means that you'll easily be a crapton over the WPL anyways. If someone happens to have Mercantile Background...


Admittedly dungeons with small corridors form an issue, but liberal use of extradimensional spaces just might do it (have something the thing is stored in and let it out when there's room and space for that). And when not in such dungeons, such would be extremely useful forcing tough saves all the way to 20 while beating things up and taking a beating.


One more thing. The thing about common resistances and immunities is that intelligent creatures know what will not work well against you, or at all and just not do it. They will also know what will work and do that. So while it does mean the poison arrow guy can't bother you, it also means he won't waste his time trying in favor of just shooting at other people. After all, when's the last time you saw someone cast Sleep on an elf? Exactly.

Oh, definitely. That said, redirecting e.g. poison away from a low Fort character doesn't seem that bad. I mean, the Cleric and the Druid are like to make their saves anyways, and the Wizard is very unlike to get hit in the first place. Also, many things Warforged are immune to often appear in area effects (poison being one of them (many Clouds are poison-effects), but also stuff like sleep and anything causing nausea or paralysis), meaning it's a "free bonus" to be immune to the effect.


EDIT: Mayhap this needs its own thread so OP can get a satisfactory answer to his own question.

Advocate
2009-02-22, 09:30 AM
The basic thing with Effigies is that you can stack any number of templates on them for insane stats. The price is derived off HD and size, so you can get away with a lot of stacking: see Mr. Roboto (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=530759&highlight=Mr.%20Roboto) for example.

As for the cost, I'm sure the rest of the party is willing to pay their part seeing that it'll be an addition to the party and you've been crafting their stuff anyways. Not to mention, an Artificer in the party means that you'll easily be a crapton over the WPL anyways. If someone happens to have Mercantile Background...

They'd probably happily pay the gold cost for anything you make for them, seeing as it's the difference between paying 37.5% or 50% and paying 100%. They'd probably pay the XP cost too if it were house ruled to be allowed. If it isn't allowed, then you have very little motivation to make stuff for anyone else. A reasonable DM would allow it as it is far more party friendly that way, but that's still a house rule.

But for that golem guy? Until he falls into a pit or something, he's a complete replacement for the party beatstick. And while getting a competent beatstick is not a big thing, it does mean there is at least one person that won't like it.


Admittedly dungeons with small corridors form an issue, but liberal use of extradimensional spaces just might do it (have something the thing is stored in and let it out when there's room and space for that). And when not in such dungeons, such would be extremely useful forcing tough saves all the way to 20 while beating things up and taking a beating.

How would you do this? Extradimensional spaces you can bring with you cap at under a ton. Golems weigh... much more than this.


Oh, definitely. That said, redirecting e.g. poison away from a low Fort character doesn't seem that bad. I mean, the Cleric and the Druid are like to make their saves anyways, and the Wizard is very unlike to get hit in the first place. Also, many things Warforged are immune to often appear in area effects (poison being one of them (many Clouds are poison-effects), but also stuff like sleep and anything causing nausea or paralysis), meaning it's a "free bonus" to be immune to the effect.


EDIT: Mayhap this needs its own thread so OP can get a satisfactory answer to his own question.

Huh? I think you misread that. My point was a Warforged, like most other races has a common list of strengths and weaknesses. So if you are a Warforged, enemies just won't shoot poison arrows at you. They'll shoot at someone else instead. If you are saying the Warforged would have a bad Fortitude save, well that simply is not true. They won't bother with Hold and such either. Instead, they will either use the things you're immune to on those that are not immune to it, or use the things you are not immune to, or are weak to against you.

No point in making a new thread for this. Especially when I'm not entirely sure what 'this' is or is supposed to be. The weaknesses bit is already covered sufficiently, so eh.

Graymayre
2009-02-22, 10:03 AM
No point in making a new thread for this. Especially when I'm not entirely sure what 'this' is or is supposed to be. The weaknesses bit is already covered sufficiently, so eh.
What's also covered is the fact that warforged are restricted in the campaign. Meaning, someone should make another thread if they want to discuss this, I'll do this myself if I have to.

on another note, DM said that I can't use race variants. Even though it is underpowered ability-wise, I may stick with the kobold simply for flavor reasons.

I'll be honest Eldariel, I don't think that cheese-al-a-kobold will be allowed in the campaign, even if it is a legal build. :smallsmile:

are there any kobold races other than desert kobolds and normies?

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-22, 10:22 AM
Page 27 of http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf has several other types.

TerrickTerran
2009-02-22, 10:40 AM
Personally for Artificers, I like Gnomes. If for no other reason, it's something gnomes would do.

And Kobold cheese...yuck. Good luck getting that past a DM.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-22, 10:54 AM
I know what you mean, Terrick. That wouldn't work as well in my games due to the fact that I use a custom ageing penalty system which doesn't give you any benefits anyway: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,109.0.html

Eldariel
2009-02-23, 01:23 AM
They'd probably happily pay the gold cost for anything you make for them, seeing as it's the difference between paying 37.5% or 50% and paying 100%. They'd probably pay the XP cost too if it were house ruled to be allowed. If it isn't allowed, then you have very little motivation to make stuff for anyone else. A reasonable DM would allow it as it is far more party friendly that way, but that's still a house rule.

Meh, after hitting Artificer 5, you can just use Retain Essence still making everything much cheaper while costing no XP.


But for that golem guy? Until he falls into a pit or something, he's a complete replacement for the party beatstick. And while getting a competent beatstick is not a big thing, it does mean there is at least one person that won't like it.

Well, if they party has an incompetent beatstick, sure, but if the beater is even just a Crusader/Warblade, he'll have his own role and probably doesn't mind an additional frontliner.


How would you do this? Extradimensional spaces you can bring with you cap at under a ton. Golems weigh... much more than this.

I recall some extradimensional storage item or spell that wasn't limited by weight. May be I'm just delirious though.


Huh? I think you misread that. My point was a Warforged, like most other races has a common list of strengths and weaknesses. So if you are a Warforged, enemies just won't shoot poison arrows at you. They'll shoot at someone else instead. If you are saying the Warforged would have a bad Fortitude save, well that simply is not true. They won't bother with Hold and such either. Instead, they will either use the things you're immune to on those that are not immune to it, or use the things you are not immune to, or are weak to against you.

Warforged in particular have decent Fort thanks to the racial Con-bonus, but Artificer is still a low Fort-progression class; that's what I was talking about. Well, that and the fact that even if you're Warforged, you might end up in some AoE-effect that is trivialized by the said immunity making the party less vulnerable when bunched.



I'll be honest Eldariel, I don't think that cheese-al-a-kobold will be allowed in the campaign, even if it is a legal build. :smallsmile:

Meh, you aren't even abusing it at all; merely making it good enough in comparison to...like Dwarves.

Alleine
2009-02-23, 01:31 AM
I still think Light Sensitivity is unnecessary for this.

Light sensitivity is beaten by a 10g item from Sandstorm. So unless the DM wants to annoy you by having enemies cast Shatter on your sweet, stylin' lenses, you won't ever have to worry about light sensitivity ever again.

If you wanna be cheap you can take the flaw Light Sensitivity(prereq darkvision) and suddenly you basically have a free feat.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-23, 02:38 AM
That would be cheap. My comment was mainly concerned with the principal of nerfing Kobolds with light sensitivity rather then the mechanical issues. :smalltongue: Also, the player may need the Eye slot for something else that wouldn;t protect them from bright lights.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 08:02 AM
Except that the shades are just shades, and not a magic item. They don't use a slot.

To Eldariel: Could, but eating items means losing all the gold just to get the XP back. Not very practical. Especially when you have multiple party members bugging you to equip you as well as you equipped themselves. Or save everyone a lot of headaches and convince the DM to allow genuinely willing creatures (not tricked/charmed/dominated) to pay the XP costs, presumably for their own stuff, as they'd have to hang around during the crafting process.

A Crusader/Warblade would still be replaced by a much bigger bag of HP spamming save or lose effects. The issue is that said bag will run into pits and stuff.

Artificer saves... what you mean is so called low. Like so called high, it is deceptive, because you're still going to end up with +24 or +25 Fortitude saves vs... well nearly everything that requires a Fortitude save. Note that this is better than the so called high saves of a Monk, 5 levels higher than the Artificer. And you could easily do better than that, via adding Spellstrike + GMW somewhere, or by adding the Shuriken of Win, which for all practical purposes is an Artificer only item.

Eldariel
2009-02-23, 08:28 AM
Artificer saves... what you mean is so called low. Like so called high, it is deceptive, because you're still going to end up with +24 or +25 Fortitude saves vs... well nearly everything that requires a Fortitude save. Note that this is better than the so called high saves of a Monk, 5 levels higher than the Artificer. And you could easily do better than that, via adding Spellstrike + GMW somewhere, or by adding the Shuriken of Win, which for all practical purposes is an Artificer only item.

Why in a million years would I compare an Artificer to a Monk? Monk's progression is gimped by their inability to use magic, MAD and a billion other things so the high progression means nothing. My point is that an Artificer still has low progression so e.g. Cleric or Druid is like to have a much more formidable Fort (not to mention Druid's poison immunity of course); in a party with high Fort casters and a Warforged Artificer, any poison-based effects are effectively inexistent for all practical purposes; with a Human, they might be relevant unless he wants to waste resources to protect himself from them.


As far as the Golem goes, creator can always command it as long as it's within 60' and speaking is a free action so if the Artificer is around, the Golem is unlike to be running into pits or anything else dumb any time soon.

The whole XP-part is pretty much non-associated; I agree with you that the DM should allow willing players to pay their own XP costs (the suggestion also exists in UA among others), but even if he doesn't, it's still cheaper to use items to pay for the XP than to actually buy items. Ultimately though, if an Artificer exists in the party, he should craft all of party's gear somehow as that's a net gain for everyone and buying stuff is just dumb.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-23, 08:33 AM
Sorry about thinking the goggles used a magic item slot (I assumed they would due to how much stuff you can fit over your eyes).

Advocate
2009-02-23, 09:12 AM
Why in a million years would I compare an Artificer to a Monk? Monk's progression is gimped by their inability to use magic, MAD and a billion other things so the high progression means nothing. My point is that an Artificer still has low progression so e.g. Cleric or Druid is like to have a much more formidable Fort (not to mention Druid's poison immunity of course); in a party with high Fort casters and a Warforged Artificer, any poison-based effects are effectively inexistent for all practical purposes; with a Human, they might be relevant unless he wants to waste resources to protect himself from them.

I dunno. But you did try to claim they had bad saves, simply based on their 'bad' base progression when in actuality they end up with the best saves in the game. A Cleric or Druid would have 5 points higher, but let's face it - barring Cloudkill, or poisoned creature poison caps out at around DC 20. So the difference between a +24 save and a +29 save is purely academic - both are only failing on a natural 1, assuming they are not immune outright. Regardless of whether the Artificer is human or warforged, poison is still basically irrelevant accordingly. Also, most of the poisonous creatures are one trick ponies... like the scorpion for example. Stay out of melee reach, perhaps by flight, and proceed to do anything you want to it to kill it, as it can't touch you.


As far as the Golem goes, creator can always command it as long as it's within 60' and speaking is a free action so if the Artificer is around, the Golem is unlike to be running into pits or anything else dumb any time soon.

The whole XP-part is pretty much non-associated; I agree with you that the DM should allow willing players to pay their own XP costs (the suggestion also exists in UA among others), but even if he doesn't, it's still cheaper to use items to pay for the XP than to actually buy items. Ultimately though, if an Artificer exists in the party, he should craft all of party's gear somehow as that's a net gain for everyone and buying stuff is just dumb.


A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weighs around 32,000 pounds.

I think a 16 ton creature is going to be making plenty of pits. Also, Retain Essence takes a while. But yeah. Because the DM agreed about the XP cost thing, we have an Artificer making just about everything for just about everyone.

Eldariel
2009-02-23, 09:41 AM
I dunno. But you did try to claim they had bad saves, simply based on their 'bad' base progression when in actuality they end up with the best saves in the game. A Cleric or Druid would have 5 points higher, but let's face it - barring Cloudkill, or poisoned creature poison caps out at around DC 20. So the difference between a +24 save and a +29 save is purely academic - both are only failing on a natural 1, assuming they are not immune outright. Regardless of whether the Artificer is human or warforged, poison is still basically irrelevant accordingly. Also, most of the poisonous creatures are one trick ponies... like the scorpion for example. Stay out of melee reach, perhaps by flight, and proceed to do anything you want to it to kill it, as it can't touch you.

Well, Dungeonscape includes an extended listing of more powerful poisons (mostly tougher creature poisons in standard poison form) with DCs up to 44, so it's possible for it all to be relevant. Those are mostly creature poisons, but available in weapon/trap form (the DC 44 poison is Megapede poison with 2d6 Con + 1d4 Dex primary and secondary damage, costs 24k a dose). If running into someone making use of such poisons, poison immunity can really be a blessing.


I think a 16 ton creature is going to be making plenty of pits.

Hmm, indeed. Ah well, it still has +17 Climb and +13 Jump, I suppose, so it should usually be able to get out of there.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 10:06 AM
Thing about Dungeonscape is it falls into the 'same things, bigger numbers' fallacy for the most part. Some of the ACFs are useful (Dungeoncrasher, anyone?), and a few other things, but when it gets into the talk of dungeons themselves it assumes you're still screwing around doing the same thing you were 10-15 levels ago, except now everyone has much better stats. As a result I don't really take it that seriously, especially when it comes to traps. Seriously, 24k just to load one trap once? By the time you get to a point in the game where that's actually appropriate you're discussing how to rule the multiverse, not screwing around in a dungeon getting hit by non magical traps. Not to mention, 9th level spells cost a sixth that amount. I'd be far more scared of the guy who used his 24k out of the 'guard the dungeon' fund to call up a few Gates.

Also, being the obscure book that it is, the chance that it will actually be used is very low.

Even if you actually are the same as you were at level 1 but with much better numbers... by the time you get hit by those sorts of traps you're up to around +30 to +40 saves, even if the whole party wasn't Heroes Feasted for the last 10 levels.

Eldariel
2009-02-23, 10:38 AM
That's the market value. You can just summon a Megapede (or Colossal Scorpion or whatever) and and make a DC 30 Handle Animal-check to have it bestow you with the venom (skill use defined in Drow of the Underdark). Or grow some ordinary creatures with the whatever growth spell. Or whatever. Bottomline being, there's little need to ever actually pay for the venom so it's not that tremendous for it to be used.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 11:26 AM
That's the market value. You can just summon a Megapede (or Colossal Scorpion or whatever) and and make a DC 30 Handle Animal-check to have it bestow you with the venom (skill use defined in Drow of the Underdark). Or grow some ordinary creatures with the whatever growth spell. Or whatever. Bottomline being, there's little need to ever actually pay for the venom so it's not that tremendous for it to be used.

With what spell?

Eldariel
2009-02-23, 02:04 PM
Well, there's Giant Vermin. I suppose you can't get Megapede, but Colossal Monstrous Scorpion Venom is still DC33 (and thanks to Beads of Karma & Ioun Stone, it's trivially available on level 15 for a Druid). Summon Monster-line has access to Fiendish versions. Once again, I suppose Megapede is out of your reach so you have to make do with the next best thing. Obviously you could trivially Gate Fiendish or Celestial versions of Megapede; sure, there's the XP cost, but there're ways to bypass that. I'm sure I'm forgetting some more obscure spells, but those are the Core-ones off the top of my head.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 02:14 PM
That begs the question though - if you're going to get into summoning poisonous creatures, why not just leave them there? Surely they would sting more than once this way, and this also saves you the trouble of getting the venom out and making a trap with it.

See, that's the mundane trap flaw. After a certain point, even if they still work at all they're so impractical you're better off just using spells.

Eldariel
2009-02-23, 02:26 PM
That begs the question though - if you're going to get into summoning poisonous creatures, why not just leave them there? Surely they would sting more than once this way, and this also saves you the trouble of getting the venom out and making a trap with it.

See, that's the mundane trap flaw. After a certain point, even if they still work at all they're so impractical you're better off just using spells.

Summoned creatures go away in a certain amount of time. Their poison doesn't. Also, Vermins aren't exactly the most intelligent creatures as far as using their abilities goes; a creature with an intelligence score can certainly do much more devious things with the poison than something that doesn't think. Certainly, the poison need not be limited to traps; it makes a fine arrow coating, among other things. Or a nice "present" in someone's trail ratios.

Graymayre
2009-02-23, 03:34 PM
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w29/Vittles_Real/forged.jpg

Devils_Advocate
2009-02-25, 09:50 AM
I like dwarven artificers, personally. As a race, dwarves basically excel at crafting stuff and fighting stuff. And while there are plenty of ways to fight stuff in D&D, the Artificer is the one class that really specializes in making things. It's easy to see artifice as dwarves' primary tradition of arcane-ish magic, along with wizardry for gnomes and bardic magic for elves (if you want to go with what actually fits each race).

Advocate
2009-02-25, 10:16 AM
Summoned creatures go away in a certain amount of time. Their poison doesn't. Also, Vermins aren't exactly the most intelligent creatures as far as using their abilities goes; a creature with an intelligence score can certainly do much more devious things with the poison than something that doesn't think. Certainly, the poison need not be limited to traps; it makes a fine arrow coating, among other things. Or a nice "present" in someone's trail ratios.

Hm. Could have sworn there was a rule somewhere about parts removed from the whole disappear when the whole does. I can't find it. In any case, all you really need is something good at attacking to deliver it. Creatures do better than traps at this, because they have a higher attack bonus. As for poisoning food... well the first question is what food? The second question is how are they getting that close for that long? It sounds good on paper, but it just isn't practical at all.