The most powerful pcs? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Tingel

2009-02-21, 04:42 PM

Based on how the 3rd edition of D&D works, one would have to assume that Vaarsuvius and Durkon would clearly be the most powerful members of the party. The characters in the comic are generally not optimzied however, and Mister Burlew is not exactly meticulous in representing the rule set in his story-telling anyway (which is a good thing in my opinion), so naming elf and dwarf the most powerful simply because of their classes might be overhasty.

Despite this, I still believe that Vaarsuvius is the most powerful, mainly because he is most concerned about power to begin with, and he is also the most focused member of the party - besides mastering the arcane arts, little matters to Vaarsuvius, while the other members seem to be far less narrow-minded in their interests. The elf's focus on his magical studies certainly might hurt his social capabilities or the amount of fun he has in life, but his raw power level definitely benefits from it.

I am also pretty sure that Elan is the least powerful among them. Before he became a Dashing Swordsman, he was laughable; now he seems at least adequate. The second weakest is probably Haley. She is very crafty and dependable and without a doubt useful to the party, but I don't think she could defeat any of the two warriors or the two casters in combat.

Kaytara

2009-02-21, 04:49 PM

Vaarsuvius has been pegged as 14th level by the Geek crowd, Haley as 15th level.

In terms of power, it depends on what exactly you mean by that.
If it's "If x fought y, who would win?", then it mostly depends on who gets the surprise round. For example, with Protection from Arrows and Fly cast beforehand, Vaarsuvius could easily wipe out the whole party in a few rounds. On the other hand, it would probably take Roy exactly one Power attack or Belkar just one round's worth stabbing to take out Vaarsuvius if they got the drop on him.

If, instead, we ask ourselves which PC represents the greatest fighting power by themselves, with efficacy as well as efficiency, then it's probably V. Even a non-optimized wizard like Vaarsuvius can change the course of the battle with a few spells while the rest will be tied up fighting the monsters one-by-one.
Haley probably comes second, assuming she has a safe place from which to snipe and doesn't get tied up in melee.

Whatever the order, Elan still clearly comes last. He has no significant martial or magical prowess of which to speak and regularly messes up when the situation calls for a skill monkey. He rarely influences the situation in a positive way but often does so in a negative way.

Origomar

2009-02-21, 04:53 PM

I guess it does depend on the situation i mean belkar could almost take out miko(paladin girl not sure if names right) when she took out the entire party.

busterswd

2009-02-21, 04:54 PM

In 3.5 a 13th level wizard > 16th level ranger/barbarian. No competition.

V isn't an optimized wizard though. He's a blaster.

Kaytara

2009-02-21, 04:57 PM

V isn't an optimized wizard though. He's a blaster.

And Belkar is a Small-sized creature who dual-wields two small daggers, has no animal companion and no access to healing spells due to his low wisdom. :smallamused:
Since they are approximately evenly-matched in non-optimization, it would seem V would still have the upper hand.

I guess it does depend on the situation i mean belkar could almost take out miko(paladin girl not sure if names right) when she took out the entire party.

Miko wasn't THAT powerful. Roy pretty much kicked her ass all solo.
Rather, "it does depend on the situation" is the reason she was initially able to defeat the OotS, twice. The first time, she was lucky to have circumstances that rendered almost all of the Order close to useless (Roy had to fight with a club, Durkon didn't want to fight her because he mistakenly believed that it was the will of his god, V and Haley were ineffective due to rain and Elan had sprained his wrist). The second time, if Rich's description of the off-panel fight is to be believed, she had the benefit of a surprise round, quickly taking down Belkar and V, having Windstriker Sunder Haley's bow, still not having to fight Durkon and facing a Roy who was still stuck with that club.

Nerdanel

2009-02-21, 05:10 PM

At this particular moment...

1. Durkon (He might not be played optimally, but he has it in him to become a CoDzilla.)
2. Vaarsuvius (An evoker with banned conjuration and necromancy? Bad idea. Wizards are still very strong though.)
3. Haley (Level 15, baby! See class and level geekery thread. The new bow is very powerful too.)
4. Belkar (Fighting with small daggers isn't smart, but Belkar obviously has very good physical stats to make up for it.)
5. Elan (He has actually become somewhat useful in fighting lately, and those illusions and bard song are abilities that he already had but didn't use to their full potential.)
6. Roy (Besides him being dead at the moment, standard resurrection would drop him to level 12, making him the lowest level character in the party.)

Myou

2009-02-21, 05:15 PM

Assuming they're all about equally incompetant at building their abilities and going by their performances in the comic I'd say;

Vaarsuvius > Durkon > Belkar > Roy > Haley > Banjo > Elan

1. Any wizard of V's level is very strong and he's been shown many times to be highly powerful, (almost) singlehandedly defeating more powerful enemies.

2. Durkon normally hangs back and heals but Clerics have great abilities and when he actually uses them he tends to quickly defeat his opposition.

3 & 4. A ranger who can't cast spells and may not have an animal companion and a fighter with poor feat selection seem pretty similar to me, but in the comic Belkar appears to be the more able combatant and Roy being a few levels behind clinches it.

5. As a rogue Haley generally has to rely on flanking or surprise to be effective in combat, without those she's not much use.

6. Puppets can't fight.

7. Elan is Elan.

Just my semi-serious opinion.

jeffreyac

2009-02-21, 05:22 PM

Kind of surprised to see Haley not get more love here - though, I grant you, her power is very situational (i.e. surprise, range, etc) never underestimate a rogue in the right situations. Sure, in a toe-to-toe broad daylight exchange of melee attacks, I'll take one of the heavy armor wearers - but if she has the chance to choose her battleground, say arrows out of the darkness, or otherwise starting combat hidden somehow, I'd think she'd make a pretty powerful foe.

Teatime

2009-02-21, 05:30 PM

Haley refers to V as "our most powerful member in this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html) Other than that, it's probably all up to interpretation.

Moglorosh

2009-02-21, 05:31 PM

I wouldn't discount Roy. Just from what we've seen of his time in the afterlife he's trained extensively with his grandfather and helped defeat an evil adventuring party, so he's most definitely gaining XP. Whether or not it's enough to overcome the level loss remains to be seen, but it should at least be taken into consideration.

Also, Belkar does indeed have an animal companion.

Olo Demonsbane

2009-02-21, 05:41 PM

Also, Belkar does indeed have an animal companion.

Mr Scruffy!!!!!!!11!!!1!1:belkar:!!:smallbiggrin:

Broler

2009-02-21, 06:17 PM

i never thought about Mr Scruffy being an animal companion!
he has many hd!! :smallbiggrin:

Lord Seth

2009-02-21, 06:36 PM

Miko wasn't THAT powerful. Roy pretty much kicked her ass all solo.Miko had fallen by that point though, which weakened her, and Roy had a stronger weapon.

[TS] Shadow

2009-02-21, 06:36 PM

"Power" is a very vauge term. If you're tallying power as "who can kill the most," it's either Belkar or V. However, if it's who would win in a fight, I think that V would win.

Klose_the_Sith

2009-02-21, 06:38 PM

i never thought about Mr Scruffy being an animal companion!
he has many hd!! :smallbiggrin:

And he can immobilise a caster!

(In response to V having Fly? Ring of Jumping +20)

Myou

2009-02-21, 06:57 PM

And he can immobilise a caster!

(In response to V having Fly? Ring of Jumping +20)

A ring of jumping +20 allows you to jump 5ft higher than normal. I just thought I'd clear that up. :smallwink:

Xerrik

2009-02-21, 07:05 PM

I don't know 3 or 3.5 very well(I only play 2), but I'd say V is probably at the top, with Durkon following. It's probably close-ish with Roy and Belkar(warrior classes are actually pretty good), with Haley and Elan at the back, alone. Elan, now that he's switched to dashing swordman, probably has some potential, though.

Zevox

2009-02-21, 09:06 PM

In 3.5 D&D, spellcasters are always more powerful than non-caster warriors once you get into double-digit levels. As such, its easy to peg V and Durkon as the party's most powerful individual members, probably in that order since Durkon seems to confine himself mostly to healing and a few buff spells rather than using his abilities to their fullest.

After them, Roy is the best of the non-casters, assuming he's not fallen more than a level behind the others since his death. His stats are higher than the rest of the party's for the most part (see the Class Levels & Geekery thread), he has plenty of feats boosting his skill with his greatsword, his sword is very powerful in its own right, and Belkar can't measure up to his melee prowess due to the penalties he suffers for TWF and the large difference in damage done between daggers and a greatsword (plus Belkar has a racial strength penalty to deal with to boot).

Between Belkar and Haley its debatable. Clearly Haley has the better weapon now, no contest. But if she gets into melee against a skilled warrior, shes screwed, while Belkar is not quite so easy to take down. On the other hand, Haley's sneak attack, if used on a full attack, can dish out more damage in one surprise round than Belkar can in entire fights. So which of them is more powerful is kinda circumstantial.

Elan is clearly last. Hes halfway competent since getting his Dashing Swordsman level(s), but generally still pretty close to useless in a serious fight.

Zevox

Lupy

2009-02-21, 11:11 PM

Okay. If the whole party was standing in a circle five feet apart from each other and all decided to attack each other, regardless of where they were, here is what would happen:
V would cast fly, protection from arrows, and then incinerate the all.

If Haley decided to kill them all she would hide and then sneak attack-full attack them all to death.

If Roy wanted to kill them all he would ask them to gather around, and then cleave through Haley and V, full attack Durkon next round, and then easily kill Belkar and Elan.

If Belkar wanted to kill them all he would slit their throats in their sleep.

If Durkon did he would wait for them to group together and use Thor's lightning.

If Elan wanted to he would lose. Period.

So except for with Elan it's all circumstancial.

Rae Artemi

2009-02-21, 11:22 PM

And Belkar is a Small-sized creature who dual-wields two small daggers, has no animal companion and no access to healing spells due to his low wisdom. :smallamused:

Mr. Scruffy.

I'd say, like almost everone else, that it all depends on the circumstances. If it was a free-for-all I'd say V would probably win, but if it was a series of one-on-one matches where whoever won the most won, Belkar would win

Ladorak

2009-02-21, 11:27 PM

Casters are unbalanced at higher levels, even in 3.5 unless you use the tomb of battle. That said it's all situational, as we've just seen in the current story arc anything as simple as a readied dispel magic can do a lot to nulify a caster without a tank to back them (Or rather, 'front' them).

I'd say :durkon: however, healing makes all the difference when even wizards have a sizable pool of Hps.

magic9mushroom

2009-02-21, 11:29 PM

derfenrirwolv

2009-02-22, 02:55 AM

Between Belkar and Haley its debatable. Clearly Haley has the better weapon now, no contest. But if she gets into melee against a skilled warrior, shes screwed

Bodak and Crystal leveled hailey 1 2 3. Belkar went toe to toe with both and wasn't breaking a sweat. Haileys going to get one sneak attack , and thats not nearly enough damage to put a dent in a ranger barbarians hp total.

while Belkar is not quite so easy to take down. On the other hand, Haley's sneak attack, if used on a full attack, can dish out more damage in one surprise round than Belkar can in entire fights.

In a surprise round, you can't make a full attack. You are limited to one move or one attack action. Mind you, Hailey could surprise, win initiative, and then make a full round of sneak attacks. I don't think it would stop belkar from disarming her, and the little BLEEP is coniving enought to do something like that.

So which of them is more powerful is kinda circumstantial.

At the order's level, its the casters. The first few levels the fighting types dominate, they come to par, and then the casters quicky rocket to the atmosphere.

Most of this comes from fighter regression. At around 8th level, a fighter has maxed out most combat trees.. power attack, cleave, improved cleave or dodge mobility spring attack whirlwind attack. After that, they have to go back and pick up something thats balanced for a level 1 character. It grows their versitility out a bit (allowing them to use a bow in addition to the sword) , but meanwhile casters are getting more versitility out AND pumping their power.

factotum

2009-02-22, 02:57 AM

Miko wasn't THAT powerful. Roy pretty much kicked her ass all solo.

He only did that after she'd Fallen; she'd thus lost all her Paladin powers and essentially become a fighter without bonus feats, as Belkar pointed out. In addition, Roy was using a +5 Greatsword that he was specialised in, likely a more powerful weapon than Miko's two blades put together! Oh, and even then he didn't defeat her while they were fighting directly--she had stunned him and would have escaped if not for Hinjo's intervention.

Jural

2009-02-22, 03:26 AM

This is an online comic based on the D&D ruleset... so let's not get carried away.

I'm going to define power as the most likely to meet his goals, and the likelihood of his goals becoming important enough for the order to focus on. The most powerful PC is the one the plot favors. In that manner, Elan, Haley, and Roy certainly vie for the top spot, with V making a mad grab that is doomed to fail. Durkon is "mostly off panel" and Belkar has already had his run.

The rules of the OOTS universe will bend for Roy- he needs to defeat Xykon. They'll also bend for Elan and Haley- both have compelling romantic interests with each other, Elan is promised a happy ending, and Haley's father quest will likely be resolved before all is said and done.

(Tongue firmly in cheek!)

Kish

2009-02-22, 03:27 AM

Elan would make an illusion of no cliff where there is a cliff or sth like that.
Yes, Elan is well-known for deviously brilliant uses of his illusions, especially when Vaarsuvius is actively against him rather than whispering in his ear. Oh, wait...More likely, he'd ask Vaarsuvius how to kill a group of adventurers with an illusion, purely hypothetically speaking, get the "hide a cliff" idea from V, try it, and be the only one to fall over the hidden cliff.

And does he even have Suggestion? He's never used it, although relying on Vaarsuvius failing a Will save does sound like Elan's level of competency.

magic9mushroom

2009-02-22, 04:14 AM

Yes, Elan is well-known for deviously brilliant uses of his illusions, especially when Vaarsuvius is actively against him rather than whispering in his ear. Oh, wait...More likely, he'd ask Vaarsuvius how to kill a group of adventurers with an illusion, purely hypothetically speaking, get the "hide a cliff" idea from V, try it, and be the only one to fall over the hidden cliff.

And does he even have Suggestion? He's never used it, although relying on Vaarsuvius failing a Will save does sound like Elan's level of competency.

We don't know many of Elan's spells. Major Image, and possibly Fear. It'd make sense especially plotwise for him to have many of the same spells as Nale.

werik

2009-02-22, 06:18 AM

I know that conventional interpretation of D&D 3.5 states that casters are much more powerful than non-casters once you break into the teens, but I disagree with this interpretation. I think that the system is very well set up to keep balance and parity for the large majority of classes in combat. Wizards would easily be the most powerful if they always had every spell they knew prepared ahead of time, but that is impossible. Furthermore, an attempt to balance ones spell selection from favoring one specialization or another can leave one with an insufficient number of follow up spells to finish the job. I know that last sentence isn't as clear as it could be, and I'm sorry for that.

I also think people believe that wizard is the most powerful because the spells are really great when they work. However, it only takes one successful saving throw to throw a hinge in a wizards plan. It's well and good to say, "Roy wouldn't have a chance, because Vaarsuvius could cast an enchantment and stop Roy from attacking," but what if Roy passes his save? Then V wasted a turn while Roy can land up to three hits on her.

And finally, the hit point total is a huge factor. For the sake of argument let's assume that Vaarsuvius is 13th level, with a 10 constitution (since I believe it is low but not certain), but rolled a natural 4 for his HD every time. That would leave her with 52 hit points. 52 hp! Most people have said that V could take down Roy, Belkar, etc. in 2 or 3 rounds if her spells work correctly. No argument there, bu the same could be said in the reverse. If Belkar got his stabbings in, V would be out in 2-3 rounds.

The same argument could be made for Haley. I believe someone mentioned a fight between Haley and Belkar saying something to the effect that one sneak attack would not bring Belkar down. Very true, but the fact is that Haley as an archer with many shot could land up to three sneak attacks on Belkar in her surprise round before he would have to move towards her, getting only two attacks. Furthermore, if Haley then takes a round to run off and hide (a skill in which she has many ranks) using her hide against Belkar's spot (a skill in which he may have a negative modifier) she could land more sneak attacks on the Belkster.

The one class that seems the weakest when it comes to fighting is Bard, but that's because Bards are designed to be extremely strong in social situations. I mean, if we want to be really imaginative, you could imagine that Elan would be good at recruiting more people to fight with him than Vaarsuvius who has an abysmal charisma, and Elan would have the upper hand that way. (This is also ignoring that Bards are not absolutely horrible in combat, and Elan is just a particularly ridiculous example of one).

That was all a long argument to agree with other people have already stated, that it's all situational. Wizards and Clerics have very powerful spells, however it is more than assumption to say they will always have the most useful spells prepared or that those spells will always work properly when used. If Wizards always had all of their spells and there was no chance to resist them, of course they would always win in combat, but that is not always the case.

Nerdanel

2009-02-22, 06:27 AM

Of the two full casters, I peg Durkon as more powerful than Vaarsuvius since although Durkon isn't played well he also isn't glaringly unoptimized like V. As a cleric, Durkon has automatic access to all the spells he can cast, which means he could theoretically prepare all the best ones and become an instant CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid zilla). V also has low or mediocre stats in everything except intelligence.

Power is more than being able to win fights by oneself. Elan can make his companions more powerful with his bard song, an ability that gets more powerful the bigger a party he has with him. OOTS has six members, which is above average.

Note that my power calculations are based on theoretical power, not how well the characters use that power. V is a canny player despite his unoptimized build while Elan and Durkon do not use their power to full effect.

Mr_Samedi

2009-02-22, 07:49 AM

King of Nowhere

2009-02-22, 08:47 AM

In a solo fight, casters are the most powerful, but they quickly run out of high level spells. A fighter type can cleave his way all day long, as long as he can get healing.
So even if V is the most powerful in the morning, after a few fights hir combat capability is quickly reduced to negligible. Also, an opponent who wins initiative can drop hir in one round. So, like most already said, it depends. Probably Durkon would be the best all-around: his healing takes a long time to wear out, and he can fight decently in melee.

by the way,
V isn't an optimized wizard though. He's a blaster.
how a blaster is not optimized? I mean, if you're a wizard, you need to blast your enemies to kill them, I don't see other ways.

Zevox

2009-02-22, 09:29 AM

Bodak and Crystal leveled hailey 1 2 3. Belkar went toe to toe with both and wasn't breaking a sweat. Haileys going to get one sneak attack , and thats not nearly enough damage to put a dent in a ranger barbarians hp total.
First, Bozzok, not Bodak. Second, I wasn't comparing how Haley and Belkar would do in combat with each other, but rather how they do in combat in D&D fight situations in general. Also, during the fight with Bozzok and Crystal, Haley was unarmed, a far cry from being equipped a +5 Icy Burst Bow the way she is now. After getting that bow she was doing quite well solo vs Bozzok before Belkar showed up, and I'd be willing to bet she could have beaten him without Belkar's help.

In a surprise round, you can't make a full attack. You are limited to one move or one attack action. Mind you, Hailey could surprise, win initiative, and then make a full round of sneak attacks. I don't think it would stop belkar from disarming her, and the little BLEEP is coniving enought to do something like that.
*sigh* Yes, I meant winning initiative round 1. I tend to confuse that with surprise rounds when referring to Rogues. And again, I was not comparing how Haley and Belkar would fare when fighting each other. That's not relevant to the comic, since as-is they have no reason to fight each other.

At the order's level, its the casters. The first few levels the fighting types dominate, they come to par, and then the casters quicky rocket to the atmosphere.
Er, did you read the rest of my post? I said that in the first paragraph, long before getting to my comments on Haley and Belkar that you quoted. The quote you responded to with this was about those two in particular, not the Order as a whole.

Zevox

Ladorak

2009-02-22, 09:37 AM

In a solo fight, casters are the most powerful, but they quickly run out of high level spells.

Two words; reserve feats.:smallbiggrin:

TerrickTerran

2009-02-22, 11:14 AM

by the way,
how a blaster is not optimized? I mean, if you're a wizard, you need to blast your enemies to kill them, I don't see other ways.

Ummm Save or Die spells.....or incapacitating spells are far better most of the time than blasting spells.

Nerdanel

2009-02-22, 11:41 AM

V would never have been able to kill that pit fiend by blasting away its hitpoints, but getting lucky with Prismatic Spray did the job with a single spell.

King of Nowhere

2009-02-22, 04:26 PM

Ummm Save or Die spells.....or incapacitating spells are far better most of the time than blasting spells.

I always considered save or die spells as blasts... :smalleek:
And the nastiest incapacitating spells (like hold person) as save or die... :smalleek:
In fact, I considered blast everything that harmed the opponent. But you're right on it

shadowdemon_lord

2009-02-22, 05:02 PM

It's V and Durkon with the top two spots. Sure, V has a tendency to get taken out of the big fights, but thats because given a moment to shine (s)he'd kick just as much ass as Durkon. The Pit Fiend fight is a great example, those things are CR 18 for chris sakes, Durkon and V are both estimated to be about 13 at the time of that fight, but together they brought it down before it could cause real damage. A Pit Fiend should be an overwhelming encounter for four level 13s, likely killing at least one PC and expending a huge portion of their resources. I think the reason the two are incapacitated so much and/or given a solo challenge is because if they were allowed to fight the main fight they would kill it without a problem, but the plot dictates that Roy should be the hero.

Anyway, after that I'd say it's now Belkar, it used to be Roy but with Scruffy thrown in the mix I'm not sure that Roy could take him down anymore. Also Belkars gained a few levels.

Haley next, with Elan brining up the rear. If Elan started having good tactics, I think he could jump up to possibly right behind Durkon, but he's not and he wont.

Kaytara

2009-02-24, 11:29 AM

I can't believe this is even a question.

Durkon>V. Without even trying.

Sure, V may be able to bust out some pretty powerful spells. However, s/he's also extremely fragile. Durkon is not only a crazy-powerful spellcaster, he's durable in melee and in many fights, has to be removed to ensure the Order doesn't get a boringly easy victory.

Let's look at some key fights, shall we?

Actually, by your own logic, it would seem that Vaarsuvius is the one who almost invariably gets removed from the main battle to keep the PCs from getting an easy victory.

Against Xxykon
V: Paralysed by some ghasts, spends the rest of the fight useless.
Durkon: Decimates a horde of goblins and undead with first recorded use of righteous might.
Vaarsuvius was already decimating goblins and undead left and right before he got paralysed. Story-wise, this was probably put in to keep V from dominating the fight a-la 'Arcanocalypse Now' and to give Durkon a chance to shine.

Against Samantha
V: Gets outblasted and beaten along with several of his/her teammates
Durkon: Has to be removed from the fight, beats Bandit leader with single spell
That was a purely accidental victory, as Durkon was not actually trying to knock the bandit leader out.

Against Miko
V: Is incapacitated...by a tanglefoot bag and inclement weather
Durkon: Chooses not to fight. Lampshades the fact that had he chosen to do so, the fight would have been easy.
...which is at least equally true for Vaarsuvius. If V hadn't been handicapped by circumstances, he may have ended the fight before it began. Him and Haley. Durkon says that. In here, it certainly seems like the story is conspiring to keep Vaarsuvius out of the action to keep things balanced, not Durkon.

Against Leeky Windstaff
V: Is beaten up by a tree
Durkon: Convinces Thor to break the rules for him, destroys said trees, beats Leeky almost singlehandedly.
...after he is incapacitated... by a pack of trees. In fact, he runs screaming from them, leaving Vaarsuvius to face them alone. The destruction of the trees wouldn't have been possible if V hadn't shouted out the type of damage they would be vulnerable to, cluing him in. And Durkon only dared to come back to face the druid after the trees were gone.

Battle of Azure City
V: Despite performing valiantly, ts unable to beat the Death Knight and has to be saved by dues ex machina
Durkon: Beats both the Huecuva and ninja assassin in a single hit, most of his other deeds occur offscreen.
V was unable to beat the Death Knight, but he was quite successful against three Titanium elementals as well as a wave of hobgoblins attacking the breach that was only able to be defended for so long thanks to V's creative use of buff spells.
Also, I don't understand what "other deeds" you are referring to. Helping his teammates kill one Titanium elemental? Nice, but not as nice as V killing three of them single-handedly. Other than that, Durkon was just hitting and healing.
Also note that Vaarsuvius was conspicuously absent from the party's confrontation with Xykon specifically because it would have made things a lot easier for the team. Roy even exclaims at one point "Where is the wizard with a Fly spell when you need one?!"

Based on that, my impression is that it is Vaarsuvius who often gets deliberately incapacitated or removed during important fights to balance things out, not Durkon.

Scarlet Knight

2009-02-24, 02:15 PM

I just realized how much initiative plays into who would win.

Okay. If the whole party was standing in a circle five feet apart from each other and all decided to attack each other, regardless of where they were, here is what would happen:

Everyone would turn and blast Belkar.

After that, who knows. I can't see Elan and Haley attacking each other. Haley likes V. Roy and Durkon wouldn't fight. Roy's tactical brain would turn him toward V. Would Haley flank in V's defense? Would Durkon fight, buff Roy, or try to stop everyone else from fighting & give V time? Or would the words on Hinjo's junk make him think V's a lost cause?

Now make the circle 50 feet ... and everyone will still blast Belkar!

:belkar: "Yeah ! Time for some steaming entrails!"
:vaarsuvius: "Disintegrate"
:durkon:"Call Lightning"
:roy:"Power Attack!"
:haley:"Rapid Shot!"
:elan:"Kill,kill, kill the psychotic halfling..."

Silverraptor

2009-02-24, 05:45 PM

Kish

2009-02-24, 05:55 PM

I agree on what's been previously said, it depends on the situation.

Tanks(Fighters): They are good aganst the many, not the mighty.
Strikers(Rangers/Rogues: They are good against the mighty not the many.
Healers(Clerics): Good at staying alive
Controllers(Wizards): Good at staying at a good range and fire artillary at targets.
What's with the 4ed-speak? :smalltongue: Even without looking at the obvious problems (the lack of a place there for Elan or Xykon, for example...) presuming the roles and abilities of each class are the same as they are in 4ed is entirely the wrong way to look at it.

Calmness

2009-02-24, 05:57 PM

V is pretty powerful but incredibly frail. -2 to CON with d4's for hp? Haha.

And yet, she outlasted Durkon during the Pit Fiend fight, which made little sense as Dwarves are notorious for being resistant, and dwarf clerics in full plate even more so.

Flickerdart

2009-02-24, 06:48 PM

Because combat isn't about who can hit the other guy more. It's about who can do the most impact the fastest. A single Flesh to Stone is worth several rounds of PA for full. Spellcasters are not regarded as the most powerful classes for their ability to take a hit, but for their ability to easily best the enemy before they can get any hits in or even avoid getting hit completely. Also, it's easy to jack up saves, and even normally, they present a difficult hurdle to overcome. 7th level spells from V would have DC24ish, against something like a +3 to +6 save. That means the "if Roy saves" is only a 10% chance. Nobody except Durkon has decent Will saves (Elan's Wisdom penalty is against him here) and V's penchant for blasting targets Durkon's weak save. His knowledge of Invisibility and Suggestion also means that V can manipulate the field much better than the others, and Spiked Tentacles of Forced Penetration will discourage would-be assailants (except maybe Tsukiko, but that's another story). All of these are spells V prepares daily, and Wizards have obscene amounts of spell slots, so he could out-spell Durkon if it came down to blows (or even flee from his pathetic speed).

Klose_the_Sith

2009-02-24, 06:49 PM

Vaarsuvius was already decimating goblins and undead left and right before he got paralysed. Story-wise, this was probably put in to keep V from dominating the fight a-la 'Arcanocalypse Now' and to give Durkon a chance to shine.

You would be roughly correct in this instance, because it's exactly the fight that V has been designed for. Keep in mind however that Durkon was needed to save V from being overrun, the exact problem with these wizards.

That was a purely accidental victory, as Durkon was not actually trying to knock the bandit leader out.

We both know that Durkon or V could have taken the Dad, but would likely have been beaten in single combat by Samantha.

...which is at least equally true for Vaarsuvius. If V hadn't been handicapped by circumstances, he may have ended the fight before it began. Him and Haley. Durkon says that. In here, it certainly seems like the story is conspiring to keep Vaarsuvius out of the action to keep things balanced, not Durkon.

Again, V or Durkon could have probably destroyed Miko, but I would put higher stock in Durkon's abilities here.

While V has the powerful spells, she would likely be frustrated by the Paladin's high saving throws and evasion, while Durkon just needs some Thor's might and he is an absolute beast in melee, one that could have taken Miko in any weather short of raining trees.

...after he is incapacitated... by a pack of trees. In fact, he runs screaming from them, leaving Vaarsuvius to face them alone. The destruction of the trees wouldn't have been possible if V hadn't shouted out the type of damage they would be vulnerable to, cluing him in. And Durkon only dared to come back to face the druid after the trees were gone.

Durkon returned to fight the Druid after he had taken out the trees, a feat that V was unable to match due to crippling overspecialisation in that days prepared spells. Durkon returned to beat the Druid, something that V hadn't done for ... some reason. I don't really see where this example is going, because they were both perfectly capable in this instance it's just Durkon who shines.

V was unable to beat the Death Knight, but he was quite successful against three Titanium elementals as well as a wave of hobgoblins attacking the breach that was only able to be defended for so long thanks to V's creative use of buff spells.
Also, I don't understand what "other deeds" you are referring to. Helping his teammates kill one Titanium elemental? Nice, but not as nice as V killing three of them single-handedly. Other than that, Durkon was just hitting and healing.
Also note that Vaarsuvius was conspicuously absent from the party's confrontation with Xykon specifically because it would have made things a lot easier for the team. Roy even exclaims at one point "Where is the wizard with a Fly spell when you need one?!"

V didn't actually destroy the elemental's in that example, she used dismissal on them, sending them away from the fight unharmed. On top of that, she wasn't even able to do it on her own magic, relying instead on scrolls which she may or may not have scribed herself.

On top of that we have generic Hobbo killings, and short of a kill count any further discussion of comparative power remains irrelevant. My guess would be a higher count for Durkon, seeing as is a more durable character, and able to fight in melee. Remember that he was able to continue fighting at the ship that same day.

Based on that, my impression is that it is Vaarsuvius who often gets deliberately incapacitated or removed during important fights to balance things out, not Durkon.

Actually, they're both frequently removed from fights, for committing the sin of competency. V is just more specialised then Durkon, which distorts the fact that (IMHO) they're approximately equal power wise.

Ladorak

2009-02-24, 07:20 PM

I'd say in one comic's time this debate may be redundent, I'm still calling :durkon: #1 right now tho

Mr. Pin

2009-02-24, 10:00 PM

I'd have to say that, assuming no extraordinary or cramped terrain and no time to prepare/buff:

Roy beats Hailey.
a) Her sneak attacks won't hit him because of his high flat-footed armor class, and he could take a few of them anyways.

b) once he gets into melee, she's screwed because if she fires, then AOO, and her low BAB and armor class and hit points mean she's no match for any serious greatsword punishment.

Hailey beats Vaarsuvius

a) a sneak attack with a +5 icy burst bow here and there will be more than enough to drop a low hit point caster.
b) V's only chance is to have Hailey fail the save on a one-hit-KO attack. This is unlikely, given the estimated save DC of her most powerful spells (seems to me like it'd be high 20s, at best) and Hailey's saves (insane reflex, decent fortitude and will)
c) V's damaging spells (fireball, lightning bolt) simply won't do enough damage to take out hailey before hailey takes out V
d) flight doesn't work.

V beats Roy

a) flight

b) disintegrate

c) repeat as necessary

Belkar beats Hailey

a)Hailey ain't got melee skillz, and the Belkster seems to deal some pretty sweet damage with those daggers. he can take a couple sneak attacks, and his barbarian speed bonuses mean she can't get away and then shoot.

Belkar beats Vaarsuvius

a) "flight"

b) "ring of jumping +20, you androgynous bitch!"

c) "AAAGH, my pitifully low hit points! *gurgle*"

Roy beats Belkar

a) He has the better armor class, more hit points, and he ought to be able to deal out some serious damage with that greatsword.
b) If the shoeless one rages, Roy power attacks
c) I'm not sure, but those daggers don't seem to be +5 like the good ol' greenhilt sword.

Hailey beats Durkon

a) A sneak attack here and there ought to be able to get past his AC.
b) She can subtract hit points as fast as he can heal 'em, and he's simply not fast enough to keep up with her.
c) His BAB and strength aren't good enough to really punish her in melee.

Vaarsuvius beats Durkon

a) His armor class, which he's sacrificed so much for, simply doesn't matter to her.
b) His melee attacks aren't good enough to finish her off, like Belkar's and Roy's are.
c) eventually, he'd fail a save. even his super cleric buffs won't fend off that inevitable natural 1-7 on the d20 roll, and with the number of disintegrates V is packing, he might as well go home now.

Durkon beats Roy

a) Our favorite Dwarf has a good enough armor class to avoid a number of Roy's attacks.
b) giving him time to heal himself if necessary, buff himself, and go for the kill with a Thor's Might.
c) a Thor's lightning will do wonders against Roy's mediocre reflex save.

Durkon beats Belkar

a) Belkar's suboptimal BAB and lack of +5 weapons, not to mention his not having favored enemy (Dwarf) and his -2s for the two-weapon thing, mean than in a melee, Durkon is almost equal to him even without the spells.
b) the Belkster is better than the rest of the order combined in certain circumstances. these do not include straight-up mono-a-mono melee against a buffing, healing, gigantic dwarf with an AC in the high twenties.

Elan loses

to The Game, in addition to the rest of the order. I shouldn't have to explain why.

So all in all, each of the members (excepting Elan) is more or less equally powerful, and each excels in certain situations. If I had to pick a #1, it would be Belkar Bitterleaf.

Because he is a sexy shoeless god of war.

everyone else wears shoes, so they can't be.

(No, naked elan does not count. he may be sexy and shoeless, but he is severely lacking in martial divinity.)

vincible

2009-02-24, 10:30 PM

I'd have to say that, assuming no extraordinary or cramped terrain and no time to prepare/buff:

Hailey beats Vaarsuvius

a) a sneak attack with a +5 icy burst bow here and there will be more than enough to drop a low hit point caster.
b) V's only chance is to have Hailey fail the save on a one-hit-KO attack. This is unlikely, given the estimated save DC of her most powerful spells (seems to me like it'd be high 20s, at best) and Hailey's saves (insane reflex, decent fortitude and will)
c) V's damaging spells (fireball, lightning bolt) simply won't do enough damage to take out hailey before hailey takes out V
d) flight doesn't work.

Belkar beats Vaarsuvius

a) "flight"

b) "ring of jumping +20, you androgynous bitch!"

c) "AAAGH, my pitifully low hit points! *gurgle*"

I haven't played in a loooong time, but wouldn't Forcecage (the windowless type) or maybe PW:Blind make both these fights trivial for V?

Mr. Pin

2009-02-24, 10:36 PM

I haven't played in a loooong time, but wouldn't Forcecage (the windowless type) or maybe PW:Blind make both these fights trivial for V?

You make a good point, but you're assuming that V has prepared for this exact battle. She probably has a forcecage on hand, but she has yet to use PWB, and a sneak attack for about 40 points of damage or a couple of Belkarian daggers in the spleen will wreak hell with your concentration checks to make a forcecage. and V would NOT win initiative.

anyways, they could probably fight through PWB and forcecage forces a draw, at best. :smallwink:

Lamech

2009-02-24, 10:46 PM

Lets see in straight up combat between each other?
V beats Durkon and Roy because she shoots farther and can fly; maybe Haley or Belkar if she gets the drop, but they have stealth.

Belkar beats Haley and Roy. Roy he can run faster than and since he can shoot and Roy can't; also the stealth issue makes shooting effective... Haley is a rouge who only fights with a bow probably she will go down. He might beat V if he stealthed up and struck. Belkar loses to Durkon

Durkon, beats Haley, Roy, and Belkar. Spam cleric spells, drop some lighting ect. Durkon loses to V.

Haley beats Roy. She's faster and guess who has the bow. V if she can stealth V. She loses to Durkon and Belkar

Roy beats, err... Elan, yeah he beats Elan. Umm... well Roy's actually down a couple levels sooo....
So Durkon=V>Belkar>Haley>Roy>Elan

Larspcus2

2009-02-25, 12:44 AM

In a solo fight, casters are the most powerful, but they quickly run out of high level spells.

Not really. at lvl 15 a focused specialist has these slots: 0: 6, 1: 8, 2: 8, 3: 8, 4: 8, 5: 8, 6: 6, 7: 5, 8: 4. When one sculpted freezing fog (lvl 6 spell) can provide a huge impact on a combat, you can do it 7 times per day. Even web (save doesn't do much) or glitterdust (If save is failed) can cause a huge swing in the balance of a combat.

A fighter type can cleave his way all day long, as long as he can get healing.
So even if V is the most powerful in the morning, after a few fights hir combat capability is quickly reduced to negligible. Also, an opponent who wins initiative can drop hir in one round. So, like most already said, it depends. Probably Durkon would be the best all-around: his healing takes a long time to wear out, and he can fight decently in melee.

As V isn't an optimized, min-maxed wizard, yes.

However, optimized wizards have the feat improved init (+4 to init) and the spell nerveskitter (immidiate action casting during init rolling, +5 to init) so that they win init almost always.

by the way,
how a blaster is not optimized? I mean, if you're a wizard, you need to blast your enemies to kill them, I don't see other ways.

The job of a wizard isn't to kill people. The wizard's job is to make it easier for the fighter to kill people

Kaytara

2009-02-25, 09:32 AM

Belkar beats Vaarsuvius

a) "flight"

b) "ring of jumping +20, you androgynous bitch!"

c) "AAAGH, my pitifully low hit points! *gurgle*"

I don't get it why everyone seems to be assuming that a Ring of Jumping +20 is somehow equal to a Fly spell. :smallconfused: Someone in this thread said that it only allows you to jump five feet higher than normal.
If Vaarsuvius takes to the air, he's sure to lift himself as high out of harm's way as his spells' range would allow him. So no attacks for Belkar there.

You would be roughly correct in this instance, because it's exactly the fight that V has been designed for. Keep in mind however that Durkon was needed to save V from being overrun, the exact problem with these wizards.
That's not really the exact problem with wizards. It's more of a problem with Vaarsuvius not having known Fly at that time. A dozen feet up in the air and with a Protection from Arrows going, he would've been safe from the regular melee mooks.

We both know that Durkon or V could have taken the Dad, but would likely have been beaten in single combat by Samantha.
I think the Order really screwed up on that one. XD I mean, they had Samantha outnumbered four to one, or three to one if you count the Belkar-swinging-Elan as a single entity...

Again, V or Durkon could have probably destroyed Miko, but I would put higher stock in Durkon's abilities here.
While V has the powerful spells, she would likely be frustrated by the Paladin's high saving throws and evasion, while Durkon just needs some Thor's might and he is an absolute beast in melee, one that could have taken Miko in any weather short of raining trees.
I agree with your assessment, but it would have still taken Durkon a few rounds to beat down Miko, who couldn't have kept making her saves against V's spells indefinitely. I agree, though, that V's choice of spells was not a very effective tactic against a paladin, particularly if he didn't know he was fighting a paladin.

Durkon returned to fight the Druid after he had taken out the trees, a feat that V was unable to match due to crippling overspecialisation in that days prepared spells. Durkon returned to beat the Druid, something that V hadn't done for ... some reason. I don't really see where this example is going, because they were both perfectly capable in this instance it's just Durkon who shines.
Meh, I just can't quite get over the idea of Durkon deserting a comrade in need, especially after he chastised Belkar for doing the same thing back in 111 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html).
I agree that Durkon really shines in his fight against Leeky, it's just that his behaviour directly beforehand kind of dampens it for me.
Based on that, one could argue that Vaarsuvius getting beaten up by trees because he didn't get the chance to Dispel them was Durkon's fault, for not being there to act as a tank.
So Durkon saved someone who was only in danger in the first place because of his own actions. Doesn't really do it for me.

V didn't actually destroy the elemental's in that example, she used dismissal on them, sending them away from the fight unharmed. On top of that, she wasn't even able to do it on her own magic, relying instead on scrolls which she may or may not have scribed herself.
Killed them or dismissed them to a plane where they will stay indefinitely unless summoned, it matters little. And I don't see what is wrong with using outside resources to save your own spell slots for something else. It's like arguing that adventurers should cope with sustained damage by relying on their own hitpoints, not by drinking potions or having healing spells cast on them.

On top of that we have generic Hobbo killings, and short of a kill count any further discussion of comparative power remains irrelevant. My guess would be a higher count for Durkon, seeing as is a more durable character, and able to fight in melee. Remember that he was able to continue fighting at the ship that same day.
Actually, I think Vaarsuvius might still have the higher count. His magically buffed soldiers killed a huge amount of hobgoblins, and they were only able to make those kills as the direct result of V's spells.
As for the ship, Durkon was technically able to keep killing them left and right, but his skill wasn't enough to save the ship by itself. On the other hand, Vaarsuvius instructed Elan to create an illusion that stopped all hobgoblin troops from even trying to attack the ship for a prolonged period of time, enough for Redcloak to complain about it holding the troops "at bay".
Had Durkon attempted to provide the same kind of protection for the ship for the same period of time, he would've taken down a great number of hobgoblins but may have died or at least run out of healing himself, leaving him unable to heal Hinjo at a later point.

Actually, they're both frequently removed from fights, for committing the sin of competency. V is just more specialised then Durkon, which distorts the fact that (IMHO) they're approximately equal power wise.
I agree with this. :) Vaarsuvius is more powerful in potential, but may range from powerful to almost useless depending on the circumstances. Durkon is not quite as powerful potentially, but makes up for it by being hardy and flexible.

Mr. Pin

2009-02-25, 04:20 PM

I don't get it why everyone seems to be assuming that a Ring of Jumping +20 is somehow equal to a Fly spell. :smallconfused: Someone in this thread said that it only allows you to jump five feet higher than normal.
If Vaarsuvius takes to the air, he's sure to lift himself as high out of harm's way as his spells' range would allow him. So no attacks for Belkar there.

Look, V can only move up to her base land speed when flying, right? this ought to be only thirty feet, and we've already established that the Shoeless One can move more than his base land speed on a jump (he did it in #176 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)), and since he's got that barbarian bonus to footspeed, his ought to also be 30ft. anyways, he'd probably win initiative, charge her, and then smack her down with AOO's if she tried to cast or run.

if V has a +0 to con, which is really the best she can hope for, she has around thirty HP. even if we say that she has some kind of armor-buffing item (which I doubt) she has an AC of 15 or so, which means that Belkar will hit, pretty much regardless. so, two rounds of combat for the Belkster to take her out. I seriously doubt that she can deny him that.

Mr. Pin

2009-02-25, 06:15 PM

. The Pit Fiend fight is a great example, those things are CR 18 for chris sakes, Durkon and V are both estimated to be about 13 at the time of that fight, but together they brought it down before it could cause real damage.

Just FYI, Pit Fiends are CR 20 in 3.5. V and Durkon got lucky; V could take out literally anyone in the comic one-hit if they failed a save, but the fact is that when that save is passed, as it will be most of the time by most of the order, V and her thirty-something hit points and under-fifteen AC are deader than Xykon's pet puppy.

derfenrirwolv

2009-02-25, 06:55 PM

Second, I wasn't comparing how Haley and Belkar would do in combat with each other, but rather how they do in combat in D&D fight situations in general.

There's two ways to deal with "who's stronger in D&D" you seemed to argue via both methods. My bad.

Also, during the fight with Bozzok and Crystal, Haley was unarmed, a far cry from being equipped a +5 Icy Burst Bow the way she is now. After getting that bow she was doing quite well solo vs Bozzok before Belkar showed up, and I'd be willing to bet she could have beaten him without Belkar's help.

Well, now that you ARE arguing for Hailey in a duel...

*sigh* Yes, I meant winning initiative round 1. I tend to confuse that with surprise rounds when referring to Rogues.

Whats with the sigh? You said surprise round, i wrote back as if you'd said surprise round. I'm not a mind reader.

And again, I was not comparing how Haley and Belkar would fare when fighting each other. That's not relevant to the comic, since as-is they have no reason to fight each other.

No need to add "again" as this is the first response to my statement.

Er, did you read the rest of my post? I said that in the first paragraph, long before getting to my comments on Haley and Belkar that you quoted. The quote you responded to with this was about those two in particular, not the Order as a whole.

I was expounding on it for the others on the board who may not play D&D. I hear alot of "Casters are more powerfull" ... but they forget at the lower levels the meat shields are the ones cranking out the damage with cleaves.

Zevox

2009-02-25, 10:05 PM

There's two ways to deal with "who's stronger in D&D" you seemed to argue via both methods. My bad.
'Kay.

Well, now that you ARE arguing for Hailey in a duel...
No, there I'm arguing that she could have beaten Bozzok without Belkar's help, and that her initial defeat was in large part due to her utter inability to fight back - and thus that her defeat there compared to Belkar's success is not an accurate means with which to measure their relative combat prowess.

Whats with the sigh? You said surprise round, i wrote back as if you'd said surprise round. I'm not a mind reader.
It was directed at myself, for making that mistake.

No need to add "again" as this is the first response to my statement.
I used it because it was the second time in that post that I had said that.

I was expounding on it for the others on the board who may not play D&D. I hear alot of "Casters are more powerfull" ... but they forget at the lower levels the meat shields are the ones cranking out the damage with cleaves.
Ah. Since you typed it immediately after a quote from my post, it came across as a direct response to me. May want to be a little clearer when you change from addressing a particular poster to readers in general in the future.

Zevox

Berserk Monk

2009-02-25, 10:15 PM

V or Dorkon. Never underestimate a high level caster. V's got the super-awesome nuke-everything arcane spells, but Durkon's got the high hit die, not to mention he can cast more spells per day. If either of them were to join a prestige class that allowed them to continue to gain levels as a caster, then I could make a clear decision.

Klose_the_Sith

2009-02-26, 01:22 AM

I agree with this. :) Vaarsuvius is more powerful in potential, but may range from powerful to almost useless depending on the circumstances. Durkon is not quite as powerful potentially, but makes up for it by being hardy and flexible.

There is, frankly, no need for discussing the rest of it. I think we've made our point for today :smallsmile:

krossbow

2009-02-26, 01:37 AM

definitely durkon.

A good example of why is leeky in cliffport. V was beaten half to death; Durkon frankly soloed that encounter.

Raging Gene Ray

2009-02-26, 01:41 AM

A good example of why is leeky in cliffport. V was beaten half to death; Durkon frankly soloed that encounter.

Of course, if Leeky had JUST HAPPENED to have cast Protection from Sonic on his trees, Durkon's plan wouldn't have worked. Also, if V had JUST HAPPENED to have Greater Shout prepared, he would have gotten rid of the trees and then Leeky.

Success isn't necessarily about being the most powerful. It's mostly about having the right skill/magic item/prepared spell at the right time in the right situation.

krossbow

2009-02-26, 01:47 AM

Of course, if Leeky had JUST HAPPENED to have cast Protection from Sonic on his trees, Durkon's plan wouldn't have worked. Also, if V had JUST HAPPENED to have Greater Shout prepared, he would have gotten rid of the trees and then Leeky.

Success isn't necessarily about being the most powerful. It's mostly about having the right skill/magic item/prepared spell at the right time in the right situation.

Durkon would still have had heavy armor and a hammer to hit the trees with; leeky's spells wouldn't have guarded against divine power or righteous might. He wouldn't have been able to solo the situation probably, but he darn well would have still been able to tear through the trees. V on the other hand walked straight up point blank to trees. This reveals what can only be described as a crippling lack of tactics, if not complete arrogance.

The point is, Durkon has a WAY bigger margin of error than V, and V frequently has done things that for all intents and purposes should have rendered him a crimson stain.

Raging Gene Ray

2009-02-26, 01:51 AM

The point is, Durkon has a WAY bigger margin of error than V, and V frequently has done things that for all intents and purposes should have rendered him a crimson stain.

True. V surviving the fight with the Black Dragon relied solely on it making a natural 1. Again with the Devil, if Prismatic Spray had been any of the lesser effects, or if the Devil actually didn't roll a natural 1...

V relies on EXTREME luck and coincidence almost as much as Elan.

Optimystik

2009-02-26, 02:41 AM

True. V surviving the fight with the Black Dragon relied solely on it making a natural 1. Again with the Devil, if Prismatic Spray had been any of the lesser effects, or if the Devil actually didn't roll a natural 1...

V relies on EXTREME luck and coincidence almost as much as Elan.

"Extreme luck" is misleading, and quite unfair to V. He may not be optimized, but he's not praying for natural 20s and 1s, either.

For the dragon fight, An Ancient Black Dragon (huge size) does 2d8+16 (11*1.5) with its crush attack. This is well below the massive damage threshold. In addition, V had 13 or 14d4 hp. He could have survived even had the dragon rolled two 8s, much less 1s.

The Devil was even less chancy. We can assume his Prismatic Spray had a DC of at least 24 (base 17, Int bonus >= 5, GSF Evocation +2). The Pit Fiend had a modified fort save of 13 (19 base, -4 Bestow Curse, -2 Crushing Despair). This means that the devil had at least a 55% chance of failing its save, which made it more likely than not.

vrellum

2009-02-26, 02:59 AM

As the comic is written I'd say the order is:
1. V
2. Durkon
3. Roy
4. Belkar: Roy is smarter and plays smarter than Belkar (at least "old" Belkar)
5. Haley
6. Elan

Sad about Elan. Elan could easily be #3 on the list, but the character is either built really bad or the player has no idea how to play, probably both. A well designed, well played bard can be a very powerful character. Kinda sad to see him fail at (almost) everything, even the things he should be really good at. However, I guess he is pretty good at influencing people because despite being useless thus far, Belkar hasn't killed him and the party hasn't kicked him out.

Kaytara

2009-02-26, 09:08 AM

Look, V can only move up to her base land speed when flying, right? this ought to be only thirty feet, and we've already established that the Shoeless One can move more than his base land speed on a jump (he did it in #176 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)), and since he's got that barbarian bonus to footspeed, his ought to also be 30ft. anyways, he'd probably win initiative, charge her, and then smack her down with AOO's if she tried to cast or run.

Huh? Fly and Overland Flight allow the caster to move at a rate of 60 feet and 40 feet, respectively.

Also, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no DnD geek, but this doesn't make sense. If Belkar's base speed is 30 feet, are you saying it also means he can jump to a height of 30 feet? :smallconfused: That really doesn't make sense. Or maybe it somehow does, but I'm having trouble seeing it.

Moglorosh

2009-02-26, 09:24 AM

For the dragon fight, An Ancient Black Dragon (huge size) does 2d8+16 (11*1.5) with its crush attack. This is well below the massive damage threshold. In addition, V had 13 or 14d4 hp. He could have survived even had the dragon rolled two 8s, much less 1s.

He wasn't talking about that. He was referring to the original black dragon who had to roll abysmally low (and in fact was stated by V to need a natural 1) on his save vs. Suggestion in order for it to have an effect.

TreesOfDeath

2009-02-26, 01:05 PM

What is "most powerful?" The ability to do the most, or combat ability?
Wizards (even a poorly built one like V) are far more versatile than clerics. The laws of the universe bend to V's will. V can also deal out the most damage, particurly with his area of effect spells.
On the other V's frail and Durikon's a tank. If a combat boils down to lastability, Durkons going to have the edge. Healings a pretty cool power, BRINGING THE DEAD BACK TO LIFE is very cool.

Is Elan really the weakest in combat? Haley has a bunch of useful skills, but in combat shes really weak, and always seems to need soemone to bail her out. Lekeay's words stick in my mind:
"Fool I have class features more powerful than your entire class!".
I'm also not sure Belkars that good. Wow he can carve through hordes of low level enemies, just like other high level characthers. Whoopee doo.
I have no problem with Roy taking 3rd place

Mr. Pin

2009-02-26, 01:06 PM

Huh? Fly and Overland Flight allow the caster to move at a rate of 60 feet and 40 feet, respectively.

Also, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no DnD geek, but this doesn't make sense. If Belkar's base speed is 30 feet, are you saying it also means he can jump to a height of 30 feet? :smallconfused: That really doesn't make sense. Or maybe it somehow does, but I'm having trouble seeing it.

Correct about the flight, I meant that she could only move 60 feet, and Belkar could take a run action for 120 feet or a charge for 60 feet. V doesn't have these options.

Anyways, my argument is that with his dexterity, Belkar would win initiative, charge V, hit (obviously, with her armor class) and not let her cast fly by using attacks of opportunity to foil her spellcasting. after a couple of attacks, which V would be hit by, she'd be dead. nothing she can do will allow her to escape; if she uses a retreat action he charges. Simple as that.

ericgrau

2009-02-27, 11:53 PM

Flickerdart

2009-02-27, 11:58 PM

Correct about the flight, I meant that she could only move 60 feet, and Belkar could take a run action for 120 feet or a charge for 60 feet. V doesn't have these options.

Anyways, my argument is that with his dexterity, Belkar would win initiative, charge V, hit (obviously, with her armor class) and not let her cast fly by using attacks of opportunity to foil her spellcasting. after a couple of attacks, which V would be hit by, she'd be dead. nothing she can do will allow her to escape; if she uses a retreat action he charges. Simple as that.
5 foot step, Hold Person, win. Sorry, try again.

ericgrau

2009-02-27, 11:59 PM

You seriously want to target the fortitude save of a barbarian/ranger (with not one but two +2's no less) and give him another save each and every round even if the first one succeeds? Also, you can combine a readied action - say, to disrupt a spell - with a 5 foot step. It's in the ready action rules. And in OotS spellcasters have been disrupted in melee before.

I think a hold person has been pulled off once against thog but mostly for comedic effect.

And I think in an off-panel fight between Miko and the OotS, Miko likewise downs Vaarsuvius in the first round. That doesn't mean Vaarsuvius isn't the most powerful member as has in fact been made clear in the comic, but a duel scenario probably isn't the best way to test.

Flickerdart

2009-02-28, 12:06 AM

You seriously want to target the fortitude save of a barbarian/ranger (with not one but two +2's no less) and give him another save each and every round even if the first one succeeds?

I think this has been pulled off once against thog but mostly for comedic effect.

And I think in an off-panel fight between Miko and the OotS, Miko likewise downs Vaarsuvius in the first round. That doesn't mean Vaarsuvius isn't the most powerful member as has in fact been made clear in the comic, but a duel scenario probably isn't the best way to test.
You mean, do I want to target the Will save of the OotS member with the second lowest Wisdom? Yes. Yes I do. Where did you get the idea that Hold Person is Fort?

ericgrau

2009-02-28, 12:08 AM

Da'Shain

2009-02-28, 02:08 AM

Er ... will is the lowest save for rangers. And barbarians. The highest base save Belkar could have at this point is a +5, and we know he has at least a -1 WIS penalty so his will save is at most +4 unless he has an item bonus. Compare that to the DC for Hold Person (10 + 3 + INT mod for wizards which is at least +5, as Rich has described V as having at least 20 INT), and Belkar has a greater than 60% chance of failing his save. It isn't foolproof and there are better options, but Hold Person is more likely to work than not. And since it takes a full-round action to shake it off, V could easily have plenty of time to either blast him to smithereens or reapply the Hold, even if on a later initiative count.

LuisDantas

2009-02-28, 06:35 AM

Vaarsuvius > Belkar > Roy > Haley > Durkon > Elan

Roy is very unclear in the comic, but just as my opinion he goes between Belkar and Haley. The only other possibility is between Vaarsuvius and Belkar (see below). But I'm pretty hard-set on the positions of everyone else: Vaarsuvius, Haley, Durkon and Elan. Here's why:

Roy is a fighter with access to the nifty fighter feats, good armor and a +5 greatsword. No way Belkar - a particularly unoptimized ranger with perhaps a coulpe more levels than Roy - is more dangerous than him.

(...) Belkar tops the kill count, even more than V I think. Vaarsuvius, Belkar and Haley are the ones typically depicted as doing all the killing.

Not really. In the first arc, at least, Roy did perhaps the most killing, albeit much of it off-panel.

Were he outside with Belkar as opposed to facing Xykon during the Azure City siege, the psycho halfling would be green with envy.

But it's been made clear that a rogue is no match for a real warrior like Belkar (b/c of his classes). That also puts Roy above Haley.

In close combat, that would be right. Haley usually prefers ranged combat. I don't know how she compares with Belkar in martial prowess, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that she's better. Belkar is more motivated to kill, but that doesn't mean he is a better fighter than anyone else.

(...) Durkon isn't depicted as doing much fighting, just mostly being a healbot/buffer. Outside of the illegal use of Control Weather (which Thor won't do again since the other gods are P.O.'ed about it), he's only been shown using righteous might to fight well in very short bursts, which he saves for when he really needs it (and he's said so at least once). In the final fight in the dungeon of Durokan Belkar is even assigned to protect both him and Vaarsuvius from melee.

Because they're spellcasters in a melee situation, not due to lack of power per se. While I agree that the Control Weather from hell was a Deus Ex Machina (literally), Durkon has shown good use of Thor's lightning and Thor's Might. He's easily more powerful than Haley, Belkar and Elan, probably above Roy too.

He looks less powerful than he is because he is not a violent person, while the opposite holds true for Belkar.

In case you haven't noticed, this is all based on the comic. My own opinion of where each one should stand is a little bit different.

Going by comic canon, I would put V and Durkon in the top tier (a toss-up about who is mightier, although V is certainly more agressive), followed by Roy, then (grudgingly) Belkar, Haley and Elan.

I want to say that the new bow puts Haley above Belkar, but it is probably just my despise for Belkar coloring my perception.

lord_khaine

2009-02-28, 08:38 AM

Going by comic canon, I would put V and Durkon in the top tier (a toss-up about who is mightier, although V is certainly more agressive), followed by Roy, then (grudgingly) Belkar, Haley and Elan

i agree, i really cant see how anyone could put Belkar above either Durkon or V.
V has overland flight, so all he needs to do is to spend a singel round moving out of range, and then start to blast the helpless halfling with whatever he wants.
even if Belkar wins initiative it wont change anything, since V still have enough HP to survive a charge attack from belkar.
as for Durkon, then a singel Thors Might should be enough, and even if Belkar gets insanely lucky then a Heal should be enough to make a certain fight.

Zevox

2009-02-28, 01:41 PM

Oops, so it is will. It's still a big save for rangers. Even with his wis that leaves it as a so-so tactic and with the save every round that downright kills it. And does Vaarsuvius even have heightened spell? Using a 3rd level single target save-or-suck spell against a 14th-15th level character without the heighten spell feat brings the tactic to downright ridiculous.
Er, no, not at all. Rangers get good fortitude and reflex, but low will saves. And Belkar multiclassed as Barbarian, also low in the will save area. According to the Class Levels & Geekery thread, we know he's at least a level 11 Ranger. Assuming he's level 13-14 like most of the rest of the Order, the best will save he can have +4 (classes) -1 (wisdom, possibly even lower) = +3, plus any bonuses if that cloak of his is a Cloak of Resistance (which is unknown). V was recently pegged as having an intelligence of at least 22 due to the number of 6th and 7th level spells she cast, so the DC on a Hold Person from her is at minimum 19. Belkar's odds of making that save are pretty damn low - only 25% if he doesn't have a cloak of resistance.

And of course, she could always use Hold Monster instead, which is two spell levels higher, for DC 21 minimum. Or better yet, Dominate Person, also DC 21.

Yeah, will saves are Belkar's most glaring weak point, and easily exploited if you have any spells that hit them. That's why it was so easy for Nale to Charm him (with a 1st-level spell, I might add).

(Also, I can't believe someone said Belkar could use AoOs to disrupt V's casting. Ever seen the concentration modifier on a 14th-level Wizard? Even if she doesn't have a constitution modifier to add to it, she can auto-succeed at casting most spells defensively, unless she was really so stupid as to not max out the most useful combat skill for her class.)

Zevox

Mr. Pin

2009-03-01, 01:00 PM

5 foot step, Hold Person, win. Sorry, try again.

My whole argument is based on the theory that Belkar will probably be able to make a save or so. Yes, V does have spells that will win the battle for her if Belkar fails the save. But a third level spell like hold person, or even one of her higher level spells, should be very makeable for a 14th level character.

In other words: No.

Kish

2009-03-01, 01:29 PM

My whole argument is based on the theory that Belkar will probably be able to make a save or so. Yes, V does have spells that will win the battle for her if Belkar fails the save.
Considering how abysmal the Will save of a ranger/barbarian with a Wisdom penalty is, and that Vaarsuvius is fully aware of Belkar's worst save, I would venture that that sentence amounts to conceding, "If Vaarsuvius knew at the time of preparing his/her spells that s/he was going to be fighting Belkar, s/he will win, and s/he probably will anyway." If your whole argument is based on the theory that Belkar will probably be able to make the saves Vaarsuvius chooses for him, your argument doesn't work. :smalltongue:

Kaytara

2009-03-01, 01:33 PM

My whole argument is based on the theory that Belkar will probably be able to make a save or so. Yes, V does have spells that will win the battle for her if Belkar fails the save. But a third level spell like hold person, or even one of her higher level spells, should be very makeable for a 14th level character.

In other words: No.

How is the level relevant in this situation? Belkar is 14th level, but so is V, with the appropriate save DC that implies, so Belkar's level doesn't give him any particular advantage. And Belkar is still a ranger/barbarian combo, classes which both have low will saves, and has the wisdom score of a lemming, personally.

CrimsonAngel

2009-03-01, 02:07 PM

Kaytara

2009-03-01, 02:14 PM

Your all talking about belkars "strategies" Let's not forget he's as smart as a lemming and mainley charges first. Still though, if he did land a hit (say a flank) then maybe he'd have the advantage of ripping out their spine.

Technically, the short-term decisions made during a battle are tactics, not strategy.

However, you bring up an important point. From a certain point of view, it is irrelevant whether Belkar would be able to take down Vaarsuvius in a single round or not, because the trigger-happy psychotic halfling may not necessarily realise the importance of taking Vaarsuvius out quickly. Meaning that, when faced with the realisation that suddenly it's okay to kill his teammates, he may go mad with glee and simply start stabbing the closest person next to him, not necessarily the person who needs to be taken out quickly.

Spiryt

2009-03-01, 02:22 PM

Kaytara

2009-03-01, 02:30 PM

Dudes, when fighting Miko Belkar showed quite a bit of understanding how to fight enemy who is more powerful.

And his not smart as lemming. His intelligence is at least average (Clever in his brain damaged way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)). His wisdom is poor.

Um, yeah. "Wisdom score of a lemming" was what I said. Never said anything about his intelligence.
And "clever in his own brain damaged way" isn't the same thing as being clever. He has an abysmal attention span, played twice for laughs in his conversations with Roy. And he's usually unable to spot subtle details in plans, like in his plan of dealing with Miko or in Roy's plan of getting Belkar out of jail.
In short, he can be surprisingly shrewd sometimes, but strangely? enough only when it applies to killing things.

So he may or may not realise that Vaarsuvius the nuker needs to be taken out quickly. His impulse to simply kill!kill!kill! the closest living being (which may not be Vaarsuvius) could easily override what shrewdness he has, though.

CartesianDaemon

2009-03-02, 05:38 PM

My view is to ignore their likely stats, but to ask "if I were a character in the story, facing a giant evil, which single character would I most want on my side", by seeing which have had the best most awesome moments of victory, and against who.

Roy: Xykon. Miko. [Xykon again] [Thieves camp]
Vaarsuvius: Trigak the Chimera. Titanium elementals. [Devil] [Kubota]
Durkon: Leaky Windstaff.
Belkar: Army of goblins. Thieves guild.
Haley: Pursuing guard squad.
Elan: [Exposing Nale as imposter]

I think I forgot quite a few awesome moments too. I added in brackets examples that I thought were relevant but didn't really count: Xykon again (because Roy lost painfully and was killed, but I include it because he went one-to-one with a 20-ish level character.), Devil (because V did basically defeat it, with help, but I think that was more of a negative thing than a positive thing, it was the start of her current downfall), Kubota (because it wasn't exactly a challenge, but I think it was the sort of awesome moment that's relevant), Nale (because it was awesome on Elan's part, but not really a victory in battle).

Looking at it, I can't really put the first three or last three in order. In a face to face battle, I'd want either Roy, V, or Durkon rather than either Belkar, Haley or Elan. (In anything OTHER than a face to face battle, it might be different.)

rgrekejin

2009-03-02, 06:39 PM

This is something I've always wondered about 3.5 edition, and the fact that most people on this thread are naming V as the most powerful character prompts me to ask:

Why, exactly, is it Arcane spellcasters are considered unbalanced?

I haven't been playing 3.5 all that long, only three campaigns over the last three and a half years. But each of those campaigns had a wizard in it, and in each campaign, he was by far the weakest, most powerless character (with the exception of one very misguided ninja build), having little value outside of utility spells like "Knock." True, in one campaign, the wizard was limited by having taken the Mystic Theurge prestige class, but in another campaign, he was played by a lifelong gamer with a love of min-maxing. Our campaigns would typically last into the early to mid teen levels, but I just never saw the wizard outgrow his role as a toolbox that needs to hide behind the meatshield.

Frankly, the problem our wizards seemed to encounter was this: on the whole, things tend to save rather than not. A lot of wizard spells are very powerful, and woe to you if they effect you, but honestly, too many times, the save is very makeable, and the secondary effect laughable or nonexistent. Perhaps this is a side effect of the fact that the DMs I have played with tend to favor monster-heavy campaigns, rather than having us fight other humanoids, and most monsters have decent saves. But regardless, I'd like some insight as to why wizards are regarded as stronger than other classes at high levels. I've never found it to be the case.