Need Help on a Magic System (3.X)

[Chokuto]

Okay, so I've been toiling away at a homebrew for awhile now, and am almost finished. I decided to make new base classes that play much more specific roles since they will be custom tailored to my setting and won't need to have that "generic" feel that published classes have.

I took a cue from the DMG and most of my classes are simply "modified" base classes. However, I hit a stumbling block when I came around to do spellcasters. See, I want to do away with the "spells-per-day" system, but also don't really want a spell point system either. Generally, I'm opposed to
4e, but one of the few things I liked about it was the "At-will-ability, 1/encounter, 1/day ability" set up. My main problem is that in fantasy lore, you never really see a spellcaster say "I've used up all my magic", it more along the lines of they fail because their exhausted, are overwhelmed, etc., so that's why I shying away from Per day, or even a point system.

That said, as I've tried to implement the 4e style into 3.X, I've failed utterly. either the class ends up overpowered or nigh useless compared to a melee or mundane ranged warrior. And the non-offensive spells such as Fly, Bull's Strength, Knock, Levitate, Dimesion Door, etc, are impossible to fit into this system. 4e has some of these spells in the form of some sort of ritual Spell/Feat/Thingy (didn't look into it to much, 4e still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth :smalltongue: ) But I don't want these to be accessible to anyone, nor do I like the idea of having to perform a ritual to use them.


Basically I've hit a Homebrew block, and am scrounging for ideas. Any help out there?

[Pyrusticia]

If you're going for a lore approach, try doing something along these lines:

Every time a magic-user casts a spell, they make a save (probably will) vs a DC of 10 + 2x level of the spell. Failure means they become fatigued (or if already fatigued, they become exhausted).

A magic-user can cast a spell no higher than 1/2 his caster level (same as normal). Metamagic applied to a spell not only increases the DC of the save, but also means that a failed save exhausts the caster, instead of fatiguing them.

To balance this, I'd also recommend a caster-only feat that gives a bonus to will saves for casting purposes only...or perhaps just make it a class feature, that they get a +1 every other level, or something.

An exhausted magic-user cannot cast spells (they are not capable of the necessary concentration). Or, you could tie it to the Concentration skill...a skill of Concentration (5 ranks) is required to cast at Fatigued, Concentration (10 ranks) is required to cast at Exhausted.

Just some brainstorming...let me know what you do with it. It sounds like a nice idea, and I might end up using it myself, after you develop it! :smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

I've thought of doing a Magic Points system, but with points awarded on a per-encounter basis, rather than a per-day basis.

Mind you, recovering points doesn't happen automatically in between encounters. Rather, you have to declare when you take a short rest that you're recovering your Magic Points ... at which point you have to make a Will save (or Fortitude save?) to avoid losing a Reserve Point. (Reserve Points are kind of like 4e's Healing Surges, and represent fatigue that goes away daily.)

If you really wanted Daily abilities to still exist, along with something like this, you could just rule that Daily-type spells directly drain your Reserve Points, instead of or in addition to costing Magic Points.

What I've just written is pretty much as far as I've gotten, though. So I don't really know yet if it can actually work well with designing specific spells, etc.

If you use any of my idea, though, be sure to let me know how it works! :smallwink:

[Tempest Fennac]

I like Draz's idea. I think making spellcasters exhausted is a bit harsh (and possibly unrealistic if the fact that chanelling Reiki makes me feel good is any indication*). I'd be tempted just to limit spellcasters to a few spells known which are roughly equal in power with them being able to cast a certain number of spells/day.

*The fact that Reiki is an unlimited source of energy which doesn;t use my own life force may be relevant here.

[TheGrimace]

A slight variant. Give them a number of spellpoints (say, Con Mod + half of caster level) per day.

Every time they cast a spell, they must make a saving throw (Fort or Will, depending on the flavor) or lose one spellpoint. Once they have exhausted one third of their spell points, they are fatigued. Two thirds makes them exhausted, and when they are all out, they are no longer capable of spellcasting for the day.

DC's are based on spell level. These are assuming you are using a Will Save, and should be adjusted (lowered) if you're using Fort instead. also, I'm assuming a 16 wisdom, raised to 18 at 8th level and 20 at 16th. I also consider 85% success rate to be the level at which they can throw the spells "at will"

0 = 9 (80% at first)
1 = 12 (65% chance at first level)(at will at 6th)
2 = 15 (55% chance at third level)(at will at 10th)
3 = 18 (45% chance at fifth level)(at will at 16th (90%))
4 = 21 (35% chance at seventh level)

I think you can see the pattern.

Note that this system works much better when the spells of a given level don't scale significantly with caster level (inspired a la psionics handbook)

edit: I may have been ninja'd by draz, I am far too tired to tell.

[Pyrusticia]

A slight variant. Give them a number of spellpoints (say, Con Mod + half of caster level) per day.

Every time they cast a spell, they must make a saving throw (Fort or Will, depending on the flavor) or lose one spellpoint. Once they have exhausted one third of their spell points, they are fatigued. Two thirds makes them exhausted, and when they are all out, they are no longer capable of spellcasting for the day.

DC's are based on spell level. These are assuming you are using a Will Save, and should be adjusted (lowered) if you're using Fort instead. also, I'm assuming a 16 wisdom, raised to 18 at 8th level and 20 at 16th. I also consider 85% success rate to be the level at which they can throw the spells "at will"

0 = 9 (80% at first)
1 = 12 (65% chance at first level)(at will at 6th)
2 = 15 (55% chance at third level)(at will at 10th)
3 = 18 (45% chance at fifth level)(at will at 16th (90%))
4 = 21 (35% chance at seventh level)

I think you can see the pattern.

Note that this system works much better when the spells of a given level don't scale significantly with caster level (inspired a la psionics handbook)


This sounds really good, actually. This biggest problem with what I proposed is that with unlucky rolls, a caster could be limited to two (or even one, with metamagic) spell in a day. Grimace's idea of giving them spell points and rolling saves to keep from spending a point means that casters are a lot less subject to the whim of the dice.

As he mentioned, the idea (as stated) works best with spells that aren't varied too widely in power. If you want to use the existing spell list (which would simplify things greatly), perhaps the idea could be refined as follows:

Every time they cast a spell, they must make a saving throw (Fort or Will, depending on the flavor) or lose one spellpoint per level of the spell (i.e., a failed save while casting Fireball would result in the loss of 3 spell points).

I'd still stick a limit of spell level = 1/2 caster level in there, though, to keep a novice mage with high Con from slinging fireballs and lightning bolts from first level.