PDA

View Full Version : 20th Level Wizard takes on the Modern World



pingcode20
2009-02-21, 09:00 PM
Alright, with the closure of the Wizard vs United States thread due to politics and religion getting tangled up in it, I think it might be an idea to reapproach it in a more codified manner.

The Ground Rules:
The Wizard
The Wizard is an arcane caster of 20th Level, with PC Wealth by Level. At the outset, the Wizard is Core only, and has his normal allotment of spells. He can be of any campaign setting that he has access to - initially, the only choice is Greyhawk.

He may use any Prestige Class he pleases, and may multiclass at will, so long as he retains the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells. However, this is, as before, subject to the books he has available - at the outset, this is Core Only. He may be of any alignment, although his goal remains to attack and conquer the Modern World.

All his equipment and magic are subject to the rules of DnD 3.5e - they inflict massive damage when they cause over 50 damage, and Domination is detectable on a DC 15 Sense Motive, et cetera.

However, the Wizard has the power to alter reality to improve his own power - he may, at his own discretion, open access to any WotC DnD 3.5 Sourcebook. However, this comes at a price, as will be elaborated shortly.

The Modern World

The Modern World functions as described in D20 Modern. As with the Wizard, at the outset they are restricted to Core only. Regardless of further changes, the Modern World does not possess Magic in any form.

As with the Wizard, equipment from the Modern World follows all the rules specific to D20 Modern - for example, Modern weapons inflict Massive Damage when the damage caused is greater than the target's constitution score. Non-unique rules, such as falling from a building, have their interactions resolved in favour of D20 Modern rules where applicable.

While initially the Modern World resembles ours, each time the Wizard meddles with reality, the Modern World advances in response. The first sourcebook the wizard grants himself causes the Modern World to gain access to D20 Future, and immediately advances to PL 6. Each subsequent sourcebook opened gives the Modern World the choice of: 1) Increasing its PL by 1 to a limit of PL 8, 2) Opening a new sourcebook, or 3) Opening a new Campaign setting (subject to the requirements of the setting - for instance, Star*Drive would only be accessible if the Modern World already has a PL of 7 or 8.).

Chapters One, Two, Four, and Eight of D20 Future are initially 'unlocked' by transition to D20 Future, with all other chapters remaining closed unless opened by campaign setting.

'Planes' are considered identical to 'Dimensions' for all intents and purposes.

Victory

The Wizard wins by successfully taking over or otherwise forcing to capitulate the Modern World.

The Modern World wins by either killing the wizard or by successfully conquering the Wizard's home reality.

---

Given these ground rules, how would the wizard best go about conquering the Modern World, and how would the Modern World be able to survive said attack?

Graymayre
2009-02-21, 09:02 PM
{Scrubbed}

Siosilvar
2009-02-21, 09:06 PM
Given these ground rules, how would the wizard best go about conquering the Modern World, and how would the Modern World be able to survive said attack?

I can't say anything for strategy, but if Core Only isn't enough, the only other book I could see the Wizard needing was Spell Compendium, and maybe Complete Arcane/Mage. Sure, the others have some neat spells, but I'm sure most of them are in the Compendium.

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-21, 09:07 PM
{Scrubbed}

Graymayre, please don't. The boards are obviously extremely sensitive to any kind of political or religious talk and it seems silly to sabotage (however jokingly) an attempt to restart an interesting thread.

Shalist
2009-02-21, 09:15 PM
Straight lvl 20 bard...convert the millions (or whatever) of gold into billions of dollars to help with bribes, etc, and just go the diplomancer route. He'd have the entire UN eating out of the palm of his hand in no time, possibly without casting a single spell, much less starting any bothersome wars.

edit: (Meh, or I suppose you could sweep through the world on a wave of unstoppable destruction/etc, the various military powers and weapons of man powerless against you...just to die when you roll a natural one against the common cold on the eve of your 'victory' :P ).

Istari
2009-02-21, 09:23 PM
What situation are we starting in?
Does the wizard just suddenly appear here or starting in Greyhawk and then planeshifing, etc.

Kaihaku
2009-02-21, 09:28 PM
It's my opinion that a level 20 core-only Wizard could "take over" the modern world fairly easily from behind the scenes. Now directly "conquering" the world would be completely another matter and beyond even that level of power...but taking over through subterfuge and tactful manipulation via force, no problem.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 09:37 PM
If the Modern World gets a bead on the Wizard's location at any point, they break out the stops and drop a nuke on his location. The end.

If they never find him, then he can play hopskotch all over the map with Teleport.

As for conquering his home dimension: they have the option to again break out the nukes, then glass it.

All this assumes that they will be allowed nukes, of course. I don't recall seeing rules for them in the basic Modern rulebooks.

But how would a Modern setting go about attacking, let alone conquering an alternate reality? Is there some kind of portal technology they are granted access to, or do they have to wait for stardrives, or something?

pingcode20
2009-02-21, 09:40 PM
Plane Shift would be the logical choice for dimension hopping. Same thing with Gate and the like.

---

I'll note that Bard 20 is actually an illegal build for the Wizard - he would have to be a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 to get the requisite ninth level spells.

Also, converting the entire WBL into cash would work out to roughly 243 million USD on today's markets. It might also cause a slight dip in gold prices, but it's only 7 tonnes to the current world supply of almost 4000 tonnes. He'd get in the news, though - that's for sure.

Yahzi
2009-02-21, 09:41 PM
Now directly "conquering" the world would be completely another matter and beyond even that level of power...but taking over through subterfuge and tactful manipulation via force, no problem.
Even a 20th level wizard doesn't have the sheer firepower of an aircraft carrier (at least, when measured in damage dice). {Scrubbed}

Raw force just isn't very good. Basically, you can only control as many people as you can talk to.

Behind the scenes, however... you don't need a 20th level wizard. A 1st level wizard could do it, with Charm Person. Remember Six degrees of separation? You're only six people away from someone who knows the president personally (or Kevin Bacon, which is almost as good).

So once a day you charm somebody to give you an introduction. And on the the 7th day you charm the president. Then you charm him into giving you a key cabinet post, and you start charming the congressmen who oppose you. You don't even have to charm them permanently; just long enough to get their vote on key bills.

Rinse/repeat with every other democratic nation. And the ones that aren't democratic are even easier: you only have to charm one guy.

Pulling off a coup and gaining total dictatorial power might require more levels, though. But certainly not 20.

{scrubbed} if you want to rule by fear... a single Shadow can defeat all the world's armies.

puppyavenger
2009-02-21, 09:43 PM
If the Modern World gets a bead on the Wizard's location at any point, they break out the stops and drop a nuke on his location. The end.

If they never find him, then he can play hopskotch all over the map with Teleport.

As for conquering his home dimension: they have the option to again break out the nukes, then glass it.

All this assumes that they will be allowed nukes, of course. I don't recall seeing rules for them in the basic Modern rulebooks.

But how would a Modern setting go about attacking, let alone conquering an alternate reality? Is there some kind of portal technology they are granted access to, or do they have to wait for stardrives, or something?

foresight+time stop for avoiding nukes?


also, create a shadow, let lose in Chinese/Indian city, gain army immune to anything World has unless you use another source book for some reason.

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 09:48 PM
i would start by trying wish. i would wish i ruled earth. if it works, it took 6 seconds. if not, noone knows.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-21, 09:54 PM
i would start by trying wish. i would wish i ruled earth. if it works, it took 6 seconds. if not, noone knows.The problem is that a Wish both takes XP and can backfire completely. You don't want to end up ruling the world with a rebellion on your hands, do you?

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 09:57 PM
Plane Shift would be the logical choice for dimension hopping. Same thing with Gate and the like.

No, I meant how does the Modern world go about invading the fantasy world, since that was a legal way for them to win.


foresight+time stop for avoiding nukes?

If he gets the time to cast Time Stop, that might work. Otherwise, not so good. You might want to put Contingency on it.

OTOH, there are numerous less banal ways of dealing with a wizard. Bullets at short range for one - don't say "protection from arrows", that's only good for DR 10/-. Poison too, though that might be too obvious. Betrayal.

I fear that this thread is going to manifest as another case of Batman Syndrome, i.e. the assumption that the wizard can do whatever if he is "prepared", this being demonstrated by the wizard spokesperson explaining what he would have done after the potential threat is mentioned. The question is, will he be prepared for the particular thing which is thrown at him? Since there is a limit to what anyone can anticipate in advance (ask anyone who has lost a high-level wizard during a game). That question, I fear, cannot be answered so easily.


also, create a shadow, let lose in Chinese/Indian city, gain army immune to anything World has unless you use another source book for some reason.

In the latter case, we have MAD, unless the clerics of the Modern world have access to Turn Undead, which they would be assumed to do (unless otherwise stated).


i would start by trying wish. i would wish i ruled earth. if it works, it took 6 seconds. if not, noone knows.

There are limits to what Wish can do. If it was that easy, the first 17th+ level mage to gain that spell in their home dimension would have done so already.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 09:57 PM
Let's see....

Plane Shift (or Gate, whichever) to Earth during a Time Stop, and immediately Shapechange and go underground. Use a Silent/Stilled Disintegrate to open up a small chamber somewhere in solid stone. Turn back to normal, and use a few regular Disintegrate spells to make it sizeable. This is your work area.
Using a Circlet of Persuasion, a Cloak of Charisma, and the Moment of Prescience spell, Planar Bind a couple of Succubi. Have them replace world leaders. +19 Bluff Modifier, +27 Disguise modifier when using Alternate Form. They take 10 on their skills, and nobody can tell the difference (DC 29 Sense Motive, DC 37 or 39 Spot). While he can use Dominate Monster on them, and potentially the Succubi can Bluff away the Sense Motive to tell they're Dominated (assuming that act like the person would is reasonably within both the orders for Dominate Person and a valid use of Bluff), there is little point - this form of deception is in their nature, and he can quite easily detect and dispose of them if they don't follow his rules (Permanency Arcane Sight + Dismissal). Contingency trigger is something you can take out of turn - attempting to talk, for instance, and is simply to escape. Spend most of your time in a Magnificient Mansion, make sure to have a Ring of Invisibility, and you're golden.

Alternately, it depends on what you want to consider conquering and capitulation. Mass Suggestion, for instance, is a DC 25 Sense Motive to note (most people won't), and can quite easily be used to get most governments to do whatever you want with little to no difficulty (when used in conjunction with a Ring of Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, Greater Teleport, and whatever divinations happen to be appropriate for finding out when the ruler and his advisors will be in one place at one time). An Imp familiar (Improved Familiar feat) wouldn't be remiss (Flight, Notable DR, Fast Healing, and at-will invisibility get you a lot of very effective spying)

Enervation + Command Undead = Self-Replicating LE army.

There's a couple of different tracks, most of which never reveal the Wizard's presence.

Pie Guy
2009-02-21, 09:58 PM
Dominate person, Dominate person, Dominate person, Mind Rape.

There, dominate president, continue to blow up every nation on planet with nukes, stand victoriously atop your pile of skulls. Easy.

Ellisthion
2009-02-21, 10:02 PM
Hmm. This post ended up being a lot longer than I planned.

I'm going to try to analyze this from the perspective of the Wizard using basically no cheese whatsoever: it's not needed. He already has more than enough power to take over the world.

What the Wizard really needs is allies. It would be basically impossible to hold even a single country by force without allies. While the Wizard could use summons and the like, it would be significantly better to enlist the aid of a country. People have already commented about various cheese that could be used to accomplish this, but without cheese is more interesting.

Pretending to be a deity is a decent option, but it could go bad. I'm assuming that the Modern world will, sooner or later, understand the Wizard's power is "just" magic, which could unravel it all. However, since the Wizard can teleport around and the like, there's no reason he can't try this in addition to other methods. Another method could be infiltrating a government, and using magic to manipulate things a bit, become elected as the leader of the country. At this early stage, the Modern side really can't do much, since they aren't aware anything is happening.

However he does it, the Wizard will need to declare war: he can't subvert the whole world. Since it will be, country-wise, 1 vs many, or at least few vs many, the Wizard needs to use his own power to push the war into his favour.

The Wizard's first aim would be, I think, to create a safe sanctuary to rest in. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion might work, if there's no way that technology can get the Modern dudes in there (I don't know much about the Modern rules, I'm afraid). Otherwise, it is essential that this location cannot be found by any method, because if the Wizard can be ambushed while resting, then the Modern guys win. Simply being within his allied country is not enough, because one of the best options for the Modern side is to make extensive use of black ops.

When venturing outside, having a Contingency to escape is obviously essential, and Foresight for dangerous areas. The more protection, the better, because half the Modern world is gunning for him.

From the Modern perspective, finding the Wizard's sanctuary (if possible) is extremely important. Other than that, they need to maintain perfect communication and be able to respond to any attack as fast as possible. The Wizard should, naturally, attempt to cripple the communications network. If possible, taking down satellites and submarine cables may help. Detecting the presence of the Wizard in cast of Illusions (like Invisibility) and the like is essential for the Modern side.

For the tactics of individual encounters, traps (like anti-personnel mines) would be very useful for the Modern side, both to keep the Wizard on the edge, and use his resources, although this does require the Modern side to be aware of the Wizard's movements.

If the Wizard can ever be pinned down, he's dead. It doesn't really matter how many spells he's got, a few artillery barrages or bombs will probably work. This means he has to exploit his most important advantage: maneuverability. Using Greater Teleport, the Wizard can strike at any location in the world, and, by using the right spells, can thus take down any target in the world. Ideally, the Wizard should enlist an elite special ops team to go with him on these Teleport attacks.

The Modern side would basically have to keep all military on permanent high alert, and all aircraft ready to scramble. If the Wizard ever makes the mistake of staying in the same location for more than a few minutes, they should exploit it. The Wizard, on the other hand, should try to use Illusions to distract heavy support, and Divinations to detect if the heavy support is coming.

Overall, I think if the Wizard plays his cards right, then he can't be stopped. Probably the worst thing he can do is access other source books for more power: he's got enough, and any additional technology on the Modern side makes it easier to both detect and respond to the Wizard's strikes. If he's clever, and has a decently strong country on his side, then it would be a perfect war: the Wizard's enemies can't defend against mundane attacks if the Wizard can strike every base, airfield, missile silo, and naval base swiftly and effectively. Once the defenders' military is crushed, they will have no choice but to surrender.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 10:02 PM
Dominate person, Dominate person, Dominate person, Mind Rape.

There, dominate president, continue to blow up every nation on planet with nukes, stand victoriously atop your pile of skulls. Easy.
Not necessarily. Domination effects are a mere DC 15 Sense Motive - do you really think there won't be someone in the cabinet, senate, or congress that can't make that? Additionally, a President can be impeached or assasinated. You can't rely on Dominate Person (although Mindrape probably works - it's technically DC 25 to note, so it's a lot less likely to be found, and once found, a lot less likely to be acted upon as you'll need quite a few people to agree that the president has been suborned - of course, Mindrape also requires the Book of Vile Darkness, which puts the world up to d20 Future....).

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 10:03 PM
The problem is that a Wish both takes XP and can backfire completely. You don't want to end up ruling the world with a rebellion on your hands, do you?

the goal was to just rule the world. there is no set amount of time i need to keep control of it for. if the spell doesnt give me control of the world, then its just 5000 experience that i lose. noone would be able to tell that i cast a spell, so why not give it a shot?

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:03 PM
Let's see....

Enervation + Command Undead = Self-Replicating LE army.

There's a couple of different tracks, most of which never reveal the Wizard's presence.

A self replicating LE army which does not obey you.

As for the others, they assume that the modern world has no way to detect the wizard. Unfortunately, even the basic d20 Modern set has a range of classes geared for anti magic detective work even without magic items.


Dominate person, Dominate person, Dominate person, Mind Rape.

There, dominate president, continue to blow up every nation on planet with nukes, stand victoriously atop your pile of skulls. Easy.

Whoops, wank alert!

puppyavenger
2009-02-21, 10:03 PM
In the latter case, we have MAD, unless the clerics of the Modern world have access to Turn Undead, which they would be assumed to do (unless otherwise stated).




why do we assume that? it's explicitly stated that they have nothing supernatural.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:04 PM
Bullets do at most 2d10, and as such, cause an average of 1, and must get past AC. A value that is strangely high, as wizards have access to both magical defenses and magical equipment. Even a tank round is equivalent only to a fireball in pure damage terms, and frankly, most wizards survive that easily enough.

I'd just enervate people by the boatloads in reletive reclusion and secrecy before unleashing them on the world. Probably carry around a gun of some sort. Even without proficiency, I'd have +6 to hit with 2 attacks, which is better than 99.9% of the earths population. I'd like to point out that a wight infestation is much, much more severe than a mere zombie apocolypse.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:05 PM
the goal was to just rule the world. there is no set amount of time i need to keep control of it for. if the spell doesnt give me control of the world, then its just 5000 experience that i lose. noone would be able to tell that i cast a spell, so why not give it a shot?

How much XP do you have to burn?

And again, there is a limit to what Wish can do. Ruling a world is not one of those things which one could reasonably expect to be within its range.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:06 PM
Bullets do at most 2d10, and as such, cause an average of 1, and must get past AC. A value that is strangely high, as wizards have access to both magical defenses and magical equipment. Even a tank round is equivalent only to a fireball in pure damage terms, and frankly, most wizards survive that easily enough.

I'd just enervate people by the boatloads in reletive reclusion and secrecy before unleashing them on the world. Probably carry around a gun of some sort. Even without proficiency, I'd have +6 to hit with 2 attacks, which is better than 99.9% of the earths population. I'd like to point out that a wight infestation is much, much more severe than a mere zombie apocolypse.

Bullets do 2d10 when you fire one bullet, a simple burst does 4d10. Tank rounds do 10d12, IIRC, and don't allow a saving throw. Let's stick to the facts, here.

EDIT: again with the Enervation. How are you going to get the Wights to obey you?

puppyavenger
2009-02-21, 10:07 PM
Bullets do 2d10 when you fire one bullet, a simple burst does 4d10. Tank rounds do 10d12, IIRC, and don't allow a saving throw. Let's stick to the facts, here.

EDIT: again with the Enervation. How are you going to get the Wights to obey you?

but they do need to hit, so just use al the usual tricks wizards have.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:09 PM
why do we assume that? it's explicitly stated that they have nothing supernatural.

Not quite. He said the Modern world did not possess MAGIC. Turn Undead is a class ability.


but they do need to hit, so just use al the usual tricks wizards have.

Right, because no-one ever hit a wizard with a ranged attack roll.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:09 PM
A tank round that allows no save is 10 d6 on a hit to AC. It's a reflex for half with a near hit. The advantage of tank rounds is that they ignore 10 points of hardness on a direct hit. A tank will not be able to hit the AC of a typical wizard, if he cares. Likewise, a burstfire shot requires a feat, and gives a -4 to hit.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:10 PM
EDIT: again with the Enervation. How are you going to get the Wights to obey you?

Who cares? I'll be in Jamaica while lower Manhatten and every populated city on earth gets to go all world war Z on itself.

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 10:11 PM
How much XP do you have to burn?

And again, there is a limit to what Wish can do. Ruling a world is not one of those things which one could reasonably expect to be within its range.

buy a scroll of wish before leaving your dimesion if you dont want to pay the cost. or gain 5000 xp and use that to pay for it.

wish can also do things more powerful than what is listed. it will probably have side effects like a rebellion soon if it does succeed, or it flat out wont work.

it gives you a chance to succeed. thats worth a shot if your goal is to conquer the world and you dont care for how long you are in control of it for, or if anything happens to it immediately after you take control.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:12 PM
A tank round that allows no save is 10 d6 on a hit to AC. It's a reflex for half with a near hit. The advantage of tank rounds is that they ignore 10 points of hardness on a direct hit. A tank will not be able to hit the AC of a typical wizard, if he cares. Likewise, a burstfire shot requires a feat, and gives a -4 to hit.

A shoulder launched missile launcher deals 10d6, I am pretty sure that the tank round does more than that. Of course, I could misremember. d20 Modern is just as silly in many respects as the fantasy version, what with armor class protecting people in situations where it shouldn't. In any case, the tank was more an illustration of the damage potential and the relative uselessness of DR for defense, not as a weapon of choice.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:14 PM
buy a scroll of wish before leaving your dimesion if you dont want to pay the cost. or gain 5000 xp and use that to pay for it.

wish can also do things more powerful than what is listed. it will probably have side effects like a rebellion soon if it does succeed, or it flat out wont work.

it gives you a chance to succeed. thats worth a shot if your goal is to conquer the world and you dont care for how long you are in control of it for, or if anything happens to it immediately after you take control.

Wish cannot give you control of the world. That is way, way beyond the power of the things listed, not just a reasonable extension of the capability of the spell.



Who cares? I'll be in Jamaica while lower Manhatten and every populated city on earth gets to go all world war Z on itself.

I doubt the Wights could simply conquer things by themselves, and they would hardly allow you to claim to have conquered anything, though granted, it would soften things up mightily.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:16 PM
A DR of 10 will stop nearly all small arms fire in its tracks, will make snipers cry and can reduce to some degree a lot of missile fire. Compounded with any of the following: blur, displacement, invisibility, greater invisibility, mirror image, project image, ethereal jaunt, polymorph for earth glide, any form with superior dex and natural armour, tacked on to said ability, not to mention contingency for nuklear weaponry, and you'll see that it's not such a simple matter to dismiss a wizards ability to avoid conventional weaponry. Note as well that a wizard need not have all of those. Any one is sufficient to severely hamper enemy attacks, assuming they are all humans such as we are.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:20 PM
A DR of 10 will stop nearly all small arms fire in its tracks, will make snipers cry and can reduce to some degree a lot of missile fire. Compounded with any of the following: blur, displacement, invisibility, greater invisibility, mirror image, project image, ethereal jaunt, polymorph for earth glide, any form with superior dex and natural armour, tacked on to said ability, not to mention contingency for nuklear weaponry, and you'll see that it's not such a simple matter to dismiss a wizards ability to avoid conventional weaponry. Note as well that a wizard need not have all of those. Any one is sufficient to severely hamper enemy attacks, assuming they are all humans such as we are.

No, DR 10 will not do any such thing, and the spells you named cannot prevent things like Sonar, radio-imaging, thermal imaging, guided munitions or other gimmicks from finding their mark.

Sigh. I knew it, this thread is devolving into nothing more than a wizard-wankfest. It happens every time, people start naming a ream of spell names, ignoring technological capabilities and assuming that settles things.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 10:20 PM
A self replicating LE army which does not obey you.You have one "general" - who you keep influenced by Command Undead (Sor/Wiz-2, days/level). Per the Wight's Create Spawn ability, any wights created by a wight are under that wight's command. You're the king, the wight under Command Undead is the general of your armies (general is under your direct control, any undead your general creates - you fetch him quite a few sacrifices for this - are under his control, and so on). Basically, you set up a branching network of military might. As they're all Lawful-Evil, they'll even likely continue obeying so long as you keep their orders reasonably within their alignment. As ruling a conquering army isn't exactly out of character for an LE critter, you're not going to have much problems, really.

Alternately, you Shapechange into a Greater Shadow and go on a killing spree. Unlike most Create Spawn abilities, the Shadow/Greater Shadow entry uses "killer" rather than specifying the monster ... which means the Shadows don't go out of control until after the Wizard is dead anyway (at which point, it doesn't really matter as far as the exercise is concerned... expect that it makes for a really interesting threat...).


As for the others, they assume that the modern world has no way to detect the wizard. Unfortunately, even the basic d20 Modern set has a range of classes geared for anti magic detective work even without magic items.
This might pose some difficulties, but they also require people know to look, and as most anti-magic detective-work stuff is somewhat lacking in the legal department, you're going to have a really hard time making use of the twelve-second IR video of an invisible presence in the Oval Office saying something to the president's cabinet and vanishing.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:25 PM
You have one "general" - who you keep influenced by Command Undead (Sor/Wiz-2, days/level). Per the Wight's Create Spawn ability, any wights created by a wight are under that wight's command. You're the king, the wight under Command Undead is the general of your armies (general is under your direct control, any undead your general creates - you fetch him quite a few sacrifices for this - are under his control, and so on). Basically, you set up a branching network of military might. As they're all Lawful-Evil, they'll even likely continue obeying so long as you keep their orders reasonably within their alignment. As ruling a conquering army isn't exactly out of character for an LE critter, you're not going to have much problems, really.

I seemed to remember that the Create Spawn had a limit to the number of spawn a given wight could control, but apparently, the designers hadn't factored that into their considerations. I wonder how they expected the fantasy world itself to survive.

Anyhow: we have 4HD bruisers who can kill with a touch, but don't use any items. They can still be killed by a spray of bullets half the time, since a burst deals 4D10 damage. It's all a matter of whether the Modern World can organize proper quarantines, and whether they can reciprocate and glass the home dimension, then.

As for the Shadows, we have as yet no word on whether the Modern world has access to Turn Undead or not.

ocato
2009-02-21, 10:27 PM
Pretending to be a deity is a decent option, but it could go bad. I'm assuming that the Modern world will, sooner or later, understand the Wizard's power is "just" magic, which could unravel it all.

In the real world, if someone had magical powers, they would probably pass for a god. Think about it. If someone could fly, disintegrate material, and magically alter someone's attitude by way of their own will-power, then I can see a lot of people being willing to call that person a god/angel/genie/monster/whatever regardless of how they have the ability.

Oh, he's flying through the city disintegrating tanks and buildings with magic? Meh.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:28 PM
No, DR 10 will not do any such thing, and the spells you named cannot prevent things like Sonar, radio-imaging, thermal imaging, guided munitions or other gimmicks from finding their mark.

Sigh. I knew it, this thread is devolving into nothing more than a wizard-wankfest. It happens every time, people start naming a ream of spell names, ignoring technological capabilities and assuming that settles things.

Blink defeats sonar thermal and radio, actually. You fail to exist for brief periods of time, meaning that any shot fired has just as low a chance of hitting as visual targetting. Project image defeats all of them. Polymorph can defeat all of them. Ethereal jaunt defeats all of them. It isn't mere fandom for wizards. Can you seriously account for those spells? Or more if I were to think harder about it? Not really.

I'll point out as well that the rules do not allow you to target visually obscured targets with unerring accuracy using any of the above mentioned methods. So while you could in fact target an invisible wizard with any weapon that is attached to said device (which will inevitably be a larger piece, not a gun, thus allowing reflex for half) you won't be able to use bullets or the majority of tank guns. The question then becomes answering the other methods, as you assume that our technology can handle them. Well, we have pretty much no answer to polymorph, and we certainly have no direct answer to ethereal jaunt.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:28 PM
In the real world, if someone had magical powers, they would probably pass for a god. Think about it. If someone could fly, disintegrate material, and magically alter someone's attitude by way of their own will-power, then I can see a lot of people being willing to call that person a god/angel/genie/monster/whatever regardless of how they have the ability.

Oh, he's flying through the city disintegrating tanks and buildings with magic? Meh.

Many would also assume that he was a demon and seek to kill him. Or that he was using Roswell tech of some kind and try to capture him. Or that what the hell, he is a danger, eliminate no matter the cost.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 10:29 PM
I seemed to remember that the Create Spawn had a limit to the number of spawn a given wight could control, but apparently, the designers hadn't factored that into their considerations. I wonder how they expected the fantasy world itself to survive.

The Vampire's Create Spawn ability has a control limit in Core. None of the other self-replicating undead do. The Vampire, curiously, also happens to be the only self-replicating Core undead that has a level adjustment. You'd almost think the designers left it up to the DM, assuming that Wights, Shadows, Spectres, and Wraiths wouldn't be under player control.


Anyhow: we have 4HD bruisers who can kill with a touch, but don't use any items. They can still be killed by a spray of bullets half the time, since a burst deals 4D10 damage. It's all a matter of whether the Modern World can organize proper quarantines, and whether they can reciprocate and glass the home dimension, then.
As was "discovered" in the Korean and Vietnam wars, in order of importance, you have:

1) Military Concepts
2) People
3) Technology

A high-INT wizard does concepts really, really well, and with the use of the Wight Apocolypse (combined with Teleporting a few around to make sure it's very widespread and quarantine doesn't work well) you're liable to run out of bullets if the Wizard takes this particular route hardcore.

If the Wizard goes the Shapechange/Shadow route, rather than the Enervation/Wight route, bullets are going to have some difficulties (as is quarantine - hard to trap something that can fly and walk through walls), but as they are Chaotic-Evil and low int, there could be problems. Spectre's would be the ideal choice (Lawful-Evil, Int-14), except for the little issue that they are harder to make, and their Create Spawn entry includes the creatures name, rather than the "killer" line the Shadow uses; a "hostile" DM means that you lose control of the spawn Spectre's when the Shapechange runs out.

Of course, you can create a Spectre with Create Greater Undead, and Command Undead will work on that one just as well. Hmm....

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:32 PM
Blink defeats sonar thermal and radio, actually. You fail to exist for brief periods of time, meaning that any shot fired has just as low a chance of hitting as visual targetting. Project image defeats all of them. Polymorph can defeat all of them. Ethereal jaunt defeats all of them. It isn't mere fandom for wizards. Can you seriously account for those spells? Or more if I were to think harder about it? Not really.

Project image does not defeat sonar or radar because it is a projected image, not a solid object which creates sound. This IS fandom of wizards, and I find I have little patience with it.


I'll point out as well that the rules do not allow you to target visually obscured targets with unerring accuracy using any of the above mentioned methods. So while you could in fact target an invisible wizard with any weapon that is attached to said device (which will inevitably be a larger piece, not a gun, thus allowing reflex for half) you won't be able to use bullets or the majority of tank guns. The question then becomes answering the other methods, as you assume that our technology can handle them. Well, we have pretty much no answer to polymorph, and we certainly have no direct answer to ethereal jaunt.

An Ethereal Jaunt and Polymorph, which is always active? What was that again? Yes, assumption that the spells you name would always be active after the fact. Wizard Wank.

pingcode20
2009-02-21, 10:32 PM
Ah, right - Modern World Invasion can only happen at 3 Sourcebooks and up - at that point, the Modern World can achieve Progress Level 7 and enter the Dimension X campaign setting, which unlocks technology allowing them to jump parallel worlds.

And yeah, opening sourcebooks is an act with seriously diminishing returns due to the tit-for-tat rules. It'd be worse if it was just sourcebook-for-sourcebook.

---

Rocket Launchers would demolish attempts to use Protection from Arrows simply by virtue of the immense damage that is being dealt out. In addition, the Protection effect would be defeated simply by massed fire, which would rapidly expire its 100 damage limit.

Also, I get the feeling that without superior invisibility, the wizard would be perfectly detectable thanks to the visual-only effects of illusions.

---

The trouble with using Wights is that they're fully killable by automatic weapons. Autofire can do an area attack if you hit an AC 10, and everyone inside needs to make a reflex vs DC 15 or take the damage.

Nightson
2009-02-21, 10:32 PM
Use wish to cast dominate person with a harder to detect DC.

I mean really, the wizard would win hands down. If the wizard was ever stupid enough to to stand around and duke it out against modern technology sure he'd go down, but a smart wizard would take control of the world without anyone even knowing.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 10:32 PM
I think what we do now is have someone make a wizard using just core rules, and see what we can logically throw at them.

Very important note: You have to say what spells you have cast, and what spells you have prepared.

32 point buy seems fair, and obviously you can only use the three core books.

puppyavenger
2009-02-21, 10:33 PM
Not quite. He said the Modern world did not possess MAGIC. Turn Undead is a class ability.


yes, but I sincerely doubt that the average priest/minister/iman/philosipher/rabid athiest would be able to turn undead. are you seriously saying that it's not supernatural in nature?

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 10:33 PM
Wish cannot give you control of the world. That is way, way beyond the power of the things listed, not just a reasonable extension of the capability of the spell.


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

i can wish for it. if it works, it will be twisted against me. but i have succeeded in conquering the world. it might not be longer than a second, but i have succeeded in conquering it.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:34 PM
As was "discovered" in the Korean and Vietnam wars, in order of importance, you have:

1) Military Concepts
2) People
3) Technology

A high-INT wizard does concepts really, really well, and with the use of the Wight Apocolypse (combined with Teleporting a few around to make sure it's very widespread and quarantine doesn't work well) you're liable to run out of bullets if the Wizard takes this particular route hardcore.

Yes, of course. I completely forgot that wizards have a monopoly on concepts. But are we not assuming that he can do whatever simply because he is a wizard? I do believe so.


i can wish for it. if it works, it will be twisted against me. but i have succeeded in conquering the world. it might not be longer than a second, but i have succeeded in conquering it.

"Greater effect" does not mean "RAARR!! Unlimited power!!!" :smallamused:

EDIT:


yes, but I sincerely doubt that the average priest/minister/iman/philosipher/rabid athiest would be able to turn undead. are you seriously saying that it's not supernatural in nature?

I am saying nothing of the sort. I am pointing out that MAGIC is one thing, and SUPERNATURAL is a broader definition.

Prometheus
2009-02-21, 10:36 PM
The real question is what does a nigh-epic wizard want from the world.

If he is content with money and power granting access to all the interesting things in the world, we can all be pretty certain he can arrange that (by selling any of his more valuable magic services: Wish->Resurrection,Polymorph Other,Teleport,Plane Shift, Spell+Permanency, or using any of his powers to take what he wants). But how much of the modern world does a wizard really care to have when he can duplicate so much with magic?

If he wants to take the office of the Presidency, than all he really needs is Dominate Person,Power Word:Kill + Alter Self, or even the prudent use of illusions (but wouldn't magic be more efficient than politics).

If he wants to kill everyone, that's where the wight-bombs, ghost-form tricks, and batman-ing come in. We can debate this for a while, but my gut tells me it has to do with whether the wizard figures out the rules of the world first or whether the world figures out the rules of the wizard first. Weighing this question is important regardless of what the rules of interaction really are, whether the battle starts immediately or not, and what beginning knowledge each side has of the other.

If he wants to impose a world order (for the purposes of refusing to discuss politics, lets just assume it something that some of the world supports but most it doesn't), than that will be a real challenge. He can't kill his way into it and he can't charm his way into it. If he tricks and subtly influences it to happen, he will be sure to have a profound effect, but it will take time and it will certainly lack the punch of "conquering". This game, than, becomes about victory conditions and wizardly patience.

Collin152
2009-02-21, 10:36 PM
Well, I'll admit I'm not putting too much thought into it, but a Simalcrum of yourself has half your spellcasting ability, right? I figure a wizard might see if he can't get the job done through a Simalcrum while observing in either a Magnificent Mansion or on the Ethereal Plane. The thing would be less capable or wreaking magical destruction, but he can see how and why it fails and plan accordingly, removing a little bit of the Batman-is-psychic taste, you know?
He'll lose the element of surprise, sure, but has that helped him so much hitherto?

Armads
2009-02-21, 10:38 PM
Shadows would be untouchable - no magic weapons means they can't be hurt.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:39 PM
Shadows would be untouchable - no magic weapons means they can't be hurt.

Which is why the question of whether Turn Undead is permitted, since it is not "magic", but a [Su] ability.

If they truly cannot be hurt, there is a "win" permitted by the OP which is the conquest of the wizard's home dimension (nukes ahoy).


that's kind of breaking the spirit of it, don't you think?

Not really, it's a distinction made in the rules: [Su] vs [Sp] and magic casting. :/

puppyavenger
2009-02-21, 10:39 PM
I am saying nothing of the sort. I am pointing out that MAGIC is one thing, and SUPERNATURAL is a broader definition.

that's kind of breaking the spirit of it, don't you think?

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:39 PM
Project image does not defeat sonar or radar because it is a projected image, not a solid object which creates sound. This IS fandom of wizards, and I find I have little patience with it.

It still casts spells however. That's the problem. You can do whatever you want as a wizard, and they can't retaliate in a meaningful manner, because they are being shot at by smoke an mirrors.


An Ethereal Jaunt and Polymorph, which is always active? What was that again? Yes, assumption that the spells you name would always be active after the fact. Wizard Wank.

Unlimited ethereal jaunt is gained by planar binding a nightmare. Polymorph has a duration allowing full day access. Alternatively, polymorph any object has a duration of as long as you need in most cases. Shapechange as well will last for an acceptable duration. If you don't have any of these options on your wizard, obviously, use a different option, but I've yet to see a wizard that has no access to polymorph spells of some sort. So your basically just ignorant of what you can in fact do in this game, and anyone that knows more about it is simply wizard wanking. :smallsigh:

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 10:40 PM
"Greater effect" does not mean "RAARR!! Unlimited power!!!" :smallamused:


ok, can you show me where it says what wishes maximum power is? i havent found anything in the spell.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 10:40 PM
Yes, of course. I completely forgot that wizards have a monopoly on concepts. But are we not assuming that he can do whatever simply because he is a wizard? I do believe so.Monopoly? No - but you also can't assume that the modern world will wipe the floor with him in that regard, either. I was actually considering that aspect a draw. Sorry I forgot to make that explicit.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:41 PM
I think what we do now is have someone make a wizard using just core rules, and see what we can logically throw at them.

Very important note: You have to say what spells you have cast, and what spells you have prepared.

32 point buy seems fair, and obviously you can only use the three core books.

As always, I'm up for this. Will be done in a few.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 10:41 PM
Shadows would be untouchable - no magic weapons means they can't be hurt.

Holy water.:smallmad:

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:41 PM
It still casts spells however. That's the problem. You can do whatever you want as a wizard, and they can't retaliate in a meaningful manner, because they are being shot at by smoke an mirrors.

Unlimited ethereal jaunt is gained by planar binding a nightmare. Polymorph has a duration allowing full day access. Alternatively, polymorph any object has a duration of as long as you need in most cases. Shapechange as well will last for an acceptable duration. If you don't have any of these options on your wizard, obviously, use a different option, but I've yet to see a wizard that has no access to polymorph spells of some sort. So your basically just ignorant of what you can in fact do in this game, and anyone that knows more about it is simply wizard wanking. :smallsigh:

{Scrubbed}
EDIT:


ok, can you show me where it says what wishes maximum power is? i havent found anything in the spell.

The general guidelines in the DM's guide would be the closest thing I could think of. However, the more obvious observation that we never see that fly in any game ever played that wasn't made to stroke the player's ego would be more telling. :smallamused:

Seriously, if we were to allow this as a "win" - controlling the world for a brief instant, then what is the point of the thread again?

pingcode20
2009-02-21, 10:42 PM
I think what we do now is have someone make a wizard using just core rules, and see what we can logically throw at them.

Very important note: You have to say what spells you have cast, and what spells you have prepared.

32 point buy seems fair, and obviously you can only use the three core books.

Well, not necessarily - it just opens up how much firepower we can throw back.


yes, but I sincerely doubt that the average priest/minister/iman/philosipher/rabid athiest would be able to turn undead. are you seriously saying that it's not supernatural in nature?

One Word: LARPers. :smallbiggrin:

But to be serious, we could probably get away with Holy Water blessed by religious leaders. That, and Firetrucks.

It would prevent use of an army, at least.


Use wish to cast dominate person with a harder to detect DC.

Doesn't work - the detection DC is part of sense motive, not the spell.

Shalist
2009-02-21, 10:42 PM
Heh, some of these schemes sound like classic BBEG schemes...the kind that, after years of work and with victory within grasp, are always thwarted by an unlikely band of heroes, an overlooked detail, etc. Alternately, you could bungle it and end up with the next Omega Man or Dawn of the Dead.

And while there's nothing supernatural in the world, nothing in the OP suggest that there isn't nerds who play dungeons and dragons in it. Everything the wizard could possibly do they'd already know about. All it'd take is one good nerd speaking to the right people to get the guns pointed in the right direction...Even failing that, cleverness and ingenuity do work both ways, and at least some of the 6 billion people are going to do something surprising or clever. *shrug*.

Just a few thoughts. However you do it, subtlety is definitely your friend, and I still say 'KISS.' A bit of bribery and few diplomacy checks and you're golden, without any elaborate schemes to be foiled or anything.

On a side note, isn't there already an entire setting devoted to this concept--an incursion by a buncha githyanki or some such?

On another sidenote, thanks for the corrections on the bard 20 thing, and GP value...I think you could get more just selling gold coins to collectors, than gold bars to investors...but yeah, simplicity = good.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:44 PM
{Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:46 PM
Monopoly? No - but you also can't assume that the modern world will wipe the floor with him in that regard, either. I was actually considering that aspect a draw. Sorry I forgot to make that explicit.

Ah, OK, I never meant to claim that the modern world would wipe the floor with him. As I mentioned above, I agree that a MAD is a quite plausible outcome.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-21, 10:47 PM
I think what we do now is have someone make a wizard using just core rules, and see what we can logically throw at them.

Very important note: You have to say what spells you have cast, and what spells you have prepared.

32 point buy seems fair, and obviously you can only use the three core books.Spend several months using Alter/Disguise Self and Charm Person to learn about the world. Then, replace the president with a Planar Bound Succubus through use of Superior Invisibility and Greater Teleport. Repeat with every other major nation. Yes, some well-trained people will spot the difference, but really, what are they going to say? The number of people who can make DC 37+ checks is startlingly few. Who would believe them? And even if they do find out, you're using Telepathic Bond to give commands, so there's no trail back to you if it is found out, and you havn't risked anything but time in the process.

Nohwl
2009-02-21, 10:53 PM
The general guidelines in the DM's guide would be the closest thing I could think of. However, the more obvious observation that we never see that fly in any game ever played that wasn't made to stroke the player's ego would be more telling. :smallamused:

Seriously, if we were to allow this as a "win" - controlling the world for a brief instant, then what is the point of the thread again?

i can think of 3 people that would allow it, but would twist it against me. why its not done is probably because there will be severe consequenses if it works. and those would be annoying to deal with.

whats the point of this thread? i dont know. there are other ways to take control of the world using a level 20 wizard. using wish is just the first thing i would try.

Armads
2009-02-21, 10:54 PM
Superior Invisibility isn't core

EDIT: Regarding Holy Water, it is created via the Create Holy Water spell. Since the modern world has no magic, holy water can't be used. Also, turn undead is countered by having way too many hit dice of shadows to turn properly (kill commoners massively?)

EDIT again:

A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
(This is assuming holy water can be made somehow)
So, using a firetruck to shoot holy water at incorporeal creatures will not work, so the only alternative is to arm citizens with holy water and ready actions to pour it over shadows as they approach. Unfortunately, greater invisibility can be used on the shadows and shadows, having no physical body and being undead, do not trigger sonar, do not produce heat from friction/metabolism, and can also walk through walls to poke commoners. And 2d4 damage isn't enough to kill a shadow.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:54 PM
And people that completely ignore the rules when discussing theory of occurance are called "in denial." I'll agree that we have nothing else to say, unless you want to concede that what I'm saying has merit, via the actual rules.

Listen up, buddy: I am NOT "completely ignoring" anything. I demonstrated several ways in which your claims were false, more to the point you openly admitted that you were going by the assumption that the wizard "could do anything". What you said had little merit, unless these were meant to be encounters set up to fail for one side.

puppyavenger
2009-02-21, 10:55 PM
Superior Invisibility isn't core

greater invisibility is, isn't that what were talking about?

Roland St. Jude
2009-02-21, 10:55 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't restart locked threads without permission.


Re-starting a Previously Locked Thread Without Permission
Certain threads will be locked by Mods for a variety of reasons, including excessive flaming, inappropriate subject matter, or simple redundancy. If a poster decides to start a new thread on the exact same discussion topic without first gaining permission from the Mods, the thread will be deleted or locked and they will be issued an Infraction—even if the new thread does not, in and of itself, violate any other rule! Which means that if a Mod decides to lock a heated debate over a subject, starting a new thread with a calmer, more well-reasoned point of view is STILL breaking the rules. Re-posting is only allowed if a Moderator gives express permission beforehand.

That said, I'll allow this if it stays away from the merest reference to RL politics or religion.

Prometheus
2009-02-21, 10:55 PM
Spend several months using Alter/Disguise Self and Charm Person to learn about the world. Then, replace the president with...Repeat with every other major nation. Yes, some well-trained people will spot the difference, but really, what are they going to say?
That is so funny. It reminds me of those conspiracy theorists who think all the world leaders have been replaced by shape-shifting alien reptiles (http://www.reptoids.com/). Those people are real wackos: everyone knows the world has already been conquered by yakfolk (who by the way, have something to say to that meddling wizard).

Armads
2009-02-21, 10:57 PM
greater invisibility is, isn't that what were talking about?

I was referring to Sstoopidtallkid's post earlier. Greater invisibility can be countered by sonar, heat detection, flour, etc.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 10:57 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't restart locked threads without permission.



That said, I'll allow this if it stays away from the merest reference to RL politics or religion.

Danm, I had totally forgotten about the old thread on this subject.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to set up a sticky post with a list of subjects of previously locked threads.

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 10:59 PM
Listen up, kiddo. I am NOT "completely ignoring" anything. I demonstrated several ways in which your claims were false, more to the point you openly admitted that you were going by the assumption that the wizard "could do anything". What you said had no merit, unless these were meant to be encounters set up to fail for one side.

And I refuted those claims with other assertions that as of yet have not been touched other than with the abusive ad hominum attacks of "wizard wank" and "kiddo" which frankly has made me a tad cross. Can you think of anything that can deal with unlimited access to etherealness, astral travel, polymorph effects, project image? Thus far, you haven't. Nor can you quote a statement made by myself that a wizard "could do anything". That was in fact stated by you to counter my point that a wizard can have full day access to ethereal jaunt and polymorph.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 11:00 PM
i can think of 3 people that would allow it, but would twist it against me. why its not done is probably because there will be severe consequenses if it works. and those would be annoying to deal with.

whats the point of this thread? i dont know. there are other ways to take control of the world using a level 20 wizard. using wish is just the first thing i would try.

Your DMs are too lenient. :smallsmile: No way that would fly with me, in any case, or any DM I can think of.

The point of this thread is, I think, to come up with interesting ways of solving the problem presented in the OP. Just using Wish seems like a cop-out, if nothing else.

Roland St. Jude
2009-02-21, 11:01 PM
Danm, I had totally forgotten about the old thread on this subject.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to set up a sticky post with a list of subjects of previously locked threads.

The one I was thinking of (as was the OP) was the one that I locked at 7 o'clock tonight. :smallamused: A subject list wouldn't really help much as a topic like this is acceptable if it stays away from problematic topics (and isn't the restart of a thread just locked).

Kroy
2009-02-21, 11:01 PM
How about the wizard has to be able to retain control of the world for a week, limiting Wish abuse.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 11:04 PM
i can think of 3 people that would allow it, but would twist it against me. why its not done is probably because there will be severe consequenses if it works. and those would be annoying to deal with.

whats the point of this thread? i dont know. there are other ways to take control of the world using a level 20 wizard. using wish is just the first thing i would try.

Your DMs are too lenient. :smallsmile: No way that would fly with me, in any case, or any DM I can think of.

The point of this thread is, I think, to come up with interesting ways of solving the problem presented in the OP. Just using Wish seems like a cop-out, if nothing else.


And I refuted those claims with other assertions that as of yet have not been touched other than with the abusive ad hominum attacks of "wizard wank" and "kiddo" which frankly has made me a tad cross. Can you think of anything that can deal with unlimited access to etherealness, astral travel, polymorph effects, project image? Thus far, you haven't. Nor can you quote a statement made by myself that a wizard "could do anything". That was in fact stated by you to counter my point that a wizard can have full day access to ethereal jaunt and polymorph.

I have answered your questions regarding Projected Image, as has the one who posted the OP. Polymorph only gives a +10 on disguise checks, and as I have already pointed out, it has a finite duration. Etherealness too has a finite duration.

I call them as I see them, to me "wizard wank" is hardly worthy of getting cross over. BTW: you posted this:


It still casts spells however. That's the problem. You can do whatever you want as a wizard, and they can't retaliate in a meaningful manner, because they are being shot at by smoke an mirrors

"You can do whatever you want as a wizard".

wadledo
2009-02-21, 11:05 PM
Spend several months using Alter/Disguise Self and Charm Person to learn about the world. Then, replace the president with a Planar Bound Succubus through use of Superior Invisibility and Greater Teleport. Repeat with every other major nation. Yes, some well-trained people will spot the difference, but really, what are they going to say? The number of people who can make DC 37+ checks is startlingly few. Who would believe them? And even if they do find out, you're using Telepathic Bond to give commands, so there's no trail back to you if it is found out, and you havn't risked anything but time in the process.

2 things:
1. How will the Succubus deal with the fact that it knows nothing of the culture and has just been thrust into a position of vast power? It doesn't know anything about our world, nor anything about the position you just put it into.

2. Wouldn't you have to deal with an angry Succubus that's gone "wild" every 1 out of 20 times you use Planar Binding?

LordZarth
2009-02-21, 11:06 PM
I think the 'God hath returned' route is the best. And coolest.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 11:09 PM
I think the 'God hath returned' route is the best. And coolest.

Certainly sounds cool. Alas, You might run into a snag when you are expected to heal the sick and have to use Limited Wish a lot. :smallsmile:

Perhaps the Mystic Theurge would at last find some use: Wiz7/Cle3/MT10 can use 9th level Arcane spells, so would be kosher, presumably.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 11:09 PM
Ah, OK, I never meant to claim that the modern world would wipe the floor with him. As I mentioned above, I agree that a MAD is a quite plausible outcome.
Mutually Assured Distruction? Hardly. Wizard uses Shapechange and a Silent/Stilled Disintegrate to make a base of operations that's completely encased in granite somewhere, and doesn't disturb the surrounding terrain. He accesses this only by way of Greater Teleport, and mostly only uses it for a location to base his Magnificient Mansion.

Any work he does in person in potentially securable locations is a variation on Scry/Buff/Teleport. Sight the target, put up any defensive buffs he likes, go Greater Invisible, 'port in, mess with people's heads (Mass Suggestion, usually, although Mass Charm Monster or Dominate Person are also possibilities in certain instances), 'port out. He's really, really hard to find, and really hard to kill, as he only spends 12 seconds, tops, in observable and securable locations ... and even then, he's invisible. Six seconds, if he includes a Greater Rod of Quicken Spell in his repetoir. A contingent Teleport for, say, "max range straight up if anyone detects my presence" keeps him reasonably safe (have fun pinning him down when he's suddenly 2,000 miles straight up as soon as you know where he is). Alternately, a Contingent Resilient Sphere on similar criteria is a good choice. Even at that, it's only when he's doing a "social" version of conquering (converting rulers) that he needs to go into preparable territory. If he's setting up a Wight Apocolypse (or the Shadow Apocolypse, or the Spectre Apocolypse, or the Wraith Apocolypse), he's hitting slums in the middle of nowhere.

Asking for an exact spell list is somewhat silly - it depends on:
1) A few rulings from the DM, which the Wizard would get from Knoweledge checks fairly readily (e.g.: Does the control of a shadow/spectre/wight/wraith created through the Create Spawn ability gained through a Shapechange go away when the caster changes forms?)
2) What exactly he's planning on doing that day (unlike a Sorcerer, a Wizard can change spells prepared out on a daily basis - and can keep some slots un-prepared for later use).
3) Which method he chooses to try and conquer the world (Undead armies, mind control, et cetera).


Certainly sounds cool. Alas, You might run into a snag when you are expected to heal the sick and have to use Limited Wish a lot. :smallsmile:

Nah - Shapechange + Veil. Turn into something that gets Lay on of Hands as a Su ability. Keep your healing to the injured, and you're fine. Alternately...


Perhaps the Mystic Theurge would at last find some use: Wiz7/Cle3/MT10 can use 9th level Arcane spells, so would be kosher, presumably.
You can go with this - it's actually explicitly kosher per the OP.

pingcode20
2009-02-21, 11:14 PM
Whoops, that's egg on my face. Sorry - I'll remember to ask in future. :smallredface:

At least now I'll have that little widget to remind me to double check the rules when in doubt.

Damn, and I was so pleased it had gone in the right direction, too.

---

Greater Invisibility doesn't help - it only lets you do stuff while invisible without breaking it. You need Superior Invis to render yourself invisible to all those funny old gadgets we've got these days to find people when it's hard to see them.

Splatbooking for it also ends up negating a number of the Wizard's defences - Wind Wall and Protection From Arrows are not useful defences against Lasers.

Naihal
2009-02-21, 11:15 PM
EDIT: again with the Enervation. How are you going to get the Wights to obey you?

Wights probably aren't the best idea; they can be killed by nonmagical attacks. The ideal Zombie Apocalypse route is to find an undead that can't be killed conventionally either at all or without a lot of difficulty, and that can replicate. Just glancing at the Monster Manuel, shadows and wraiths seem to fit the bill.

Shadows are incorporeal, rendering them immune to any mundane means of attack - and lucky us, that's all Earth has! Even a nuke won't kill them. I'm sure that a scientist could rig something that would affect even immaterial creatures (possibly something like the Active Denial System, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) which uses millimeter waves) but even then, any attack that comes from a corporeal source has only a 50% chance to hit it.

Of course, by the time the government has any idea of what to do to fight an incorporeal being, the shadow will have had plenty of time to raise plenty of people under its control. All you need to do is to drop a shadow in a heavily-populated area with instructions to kill everyone it can find (and to repeat those instructions to the spawn it creates) and watch as the entire city becomes a haven for the undead. Shadows can fly and pass through walls, so no one is going to be able to hide.

Wraiths are pretty much as above.

The drawback is that controlling an undead army is difficult - otherwise every wannabe necromancer would be doing it. Casting Command Undead on the original shadow and telling it to command all its spawn to listen to you won't work; the spell specifies that only simple orders can be given. If you have a method that allows you to affect undead with mind-affecting spells, then use Dominate Monster and go to town. An alternative method is Control Undead, which is effectively Dominate Monster for the undead. While it only has a minute/level duration, you have two options with it. One is to use cheese to extend it to a more reasonable duration, while the other is legal by RAW as far as I can tell but I'm not entirely sure. Use Control Undead on your original shadow and command it to give its spawn the instructions to obey you absolutely as they would their makers and to pass on these instructions to their spawn. Once this is done, you can either place the original shadow under Command Undead or kill it if you fear it getting free. In any case, if none of the above methods are possible or practical, remember: a Zombie Apocalypse that kills everything but that you have no control over isn't as good as a Zombie Apocalypse that you have full control over but is better than no undead apocalypse at all.

A few last words: shadows and wraiths do have one weakness, holy water. Still, the damage is pathetic, it only has a 50% chance of affecting them to begin with, and mass producing it and using it as a weapon is likely to be ineffective. By the time anyone considers using holy water and deems it an effective weapon, the undead army will be so large that killing a few of them isn't going to do any good. A bigger problem is that wraiths lose all their powers in sunlight. The most practical solution is to use shadows, but if you need to use wraiths for some reason, find a building large enough to house all the wraiths during the daylight.

Shovah
2009-02-21, 11:18 PM
nothing more than a wizard-wankfest. It happens every time, people start naming a ream of spell names, ignoring technological capabilities and assuming that settles things.


Hardly.
Given that it's all too easy for the Wizard to avoid ever being detected by the world at all, considering he can;

Be under the effects of Greater Invisibility while acting.

Rest/work on projects far away from civilization.

Sustain himself with magic if too paranoid to eat etc in public for whatever reason

Take on any number of magical disguises if he has to reveal himself for whatever reason.

Establish a base-of-operations anywhere in the world such as the previously-mentioned underground cavern carved via desintigrate. Summoned creatures could also create/teleport materials into such an area and/or help carve it out, and with a Lyre of Building (not terribly expensive at level 20) those materials could be turned into any number of things (polymorph any object and such could make further changes). While your resting place (or resting places - more would be safer. Perhaps some reachable and some not?) should be safe enough that no real buildings should be needed, there's no harm in including them in (Having one resting place being just a cavern small enough to sleep in with a spare spellbook would help incase the larger bases can be detected).

Act mostly (or even entirely) through proxys; summoned creatures, dominated (or mind-raped, if willing to deal with D20 Future. I have no idea what capabilities that gives to the world) people like world leaders, possibly astral projections, etc.

Etc. No to mention that the combination of Foresight, Time Stop, (Greater) Teleport, the occasional Divination, all the things listed above,and possibly even Contingencies should mean that any time the Wizard would potentially be in any kind of trouble, he can get out of it pretty much instantly.
And buffs that the Wizard could easily have up (if you really want some heavy cheese, go Incantrix and persist a bunch of them) should also protect him against any random threats, not that he should ever have to face them.

Basically, unless he goes on the offensive (in which case, Shapechange into a powerful form, add in a huge number of buffs, and go to town.
Just be flying, invisible, foresight-ed, and have a contingent greater teleport to get you out of there if things turn nasty and you should be relatively safe. More buffs should probably be added, but don't seem terribly neccesary now) the Wizard shouldn't even be known about, let-alone targeted, and repeated use of Mind-control magics (and possibly illusions and summoned monsters? There are certain Gated creatures that could do 'alot' of damage before any response to them could be brought in. High-level devil teleported to major city, anyone?) should make the actual take-over fairly easy.

Either get various World-leaders (and the important people close to them) under your control, or just get very chummy with everyone and get yourself (or your false Identity. Disguises are fun like that) elected. Or whatever. Once you're definitely safe - and you should be safe, as out-lined above- you can do just about anything you want with all your magic.
Even just spending most of your daily spell-slots on Summoning monsters and having them go around trashing anything important could be worth some "luls", and should soften the world up nicely, and create enough problems that your subtle-manipulation of world-politics are less noticed. Should you decide to go this route, which I, in all honesty, probably wouldn't. But hey, it's an option.



Sorry if this comes of as a Wall-of-text.

tl;dr: Any reasonably intelligent wizard should be completely safe, and then taking over shouldn't be too difficult (mind control is just that good in a world that is otherwise without magic).



Wow.. that took a while to write (with breaks). Hope it isn't completely irrelevant by the time I post it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-21, 11:19 PM
2 things:
1. How will the Succubus deal with the fact that it knows nothing of the culture and has just been thrust into a position of vast power? It doesn't know anything about our world, nor anything about the position you just put it into.

2. Wouldn't you have to deal with an angry Succubus that's gone "wild" every 1 out of 20 times you use Planar Binding?1: You are controlling the Succubus via Telepathic Bond and have the HoS Dominated and answering your questions. As the Succubus learns it's role(reasonable given the Int and bluff scores) it takes on the day-to-day lies and all you do is make decisions on major issues.

2: The spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) is...oddly worded. If the Succubus resists the initial save, it has no clue where you are, how to find you, or what you want. Once you catch it, though, some of them may escape. Those you have a Contingency set up to kill immediately.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 11:19 PM
Asking for an exact spell list is somewhat silly - it depends on:
1) A few rulings from the DM, which the Wizard would get from Knoweledge checks fairly readily (e.g.: Does the control of a shadow/spectre/wight/wraith created through the Create Spawn ability gained through a Shapechange go away when the caster changes forms?)
2) What exactly he's planning on doing that day (unlike a Sorcerer, a Wizard can change spells prepared out on a daily basis - and can keep some slots un-prepared for later use).
3) Which method he chooses to try and conquer the world (Undead armies, mind control, et cetera).

If we don't though, it becomes more of an exercise of who can post faster,
the person looking up the spells that will counteract the ways the person trying to refute it comes up with,
or
the person trying to refute it,
or
the person who calmly points out that there is a very small chance of your wizard having more than 804 spells per day of 7th level and above.:smallannoyed:

horseboy
2009-02-21, 11:24 PM
On a side note, isn't there already an entire setting devoted to this concept--an incursion by a buncha githyanki or some such?
Well, there's Torg, but I think it's a bit old for most of this crowd. :smallwink:

Let me know when I can break out a character with a D.E.W. weapon with radiation rules and a quantum science based sensor. I built a soldier with a high enough tech level a while back to take down Batman, course, it's not d20 though. :smallyuk:

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 11:24 PM
Mutually Assured Distruction? Hardly. Wizard uses Shapechange and a Silent/Stilled Disintegrate to make a base of operations that's completely encased in granite somewhere, and doesn't disturb the surrounding terrain. He accesses this only by way of Greater Teleport, and mostly only uses it for a location to base his Magnificient Mansion.

The MAD referred to the counter-attack on the home plane. And you yourself were speaking of a draw a moment ago. Did you mean something other than MAD?

As for the MMM you describe: bunker busters for when the wizard returns.


Any work he does in person in potentially securable locations is a variation on Scry/Buff/Teleport. <snipped for space>

Port in, mess with people's heads, port out is hard to stop, but it does not add up to world domination. After the world leaders wise up (assuming that they don't know what's up as per the initial conditions of the scenario), important decision makers will be under constant scrutiny by every means possible, so Invisibility will be of limited use.

I think we have covered the Wraith apocalypse; automatic weapons. We would have to add 24/7 surveillance of population centers too, to deal with the teleportation.


Asking for an exact spell list is somewhat silly - it depends on:
1) A few rulings from the DM, which the Wizard would get from Knoweledge checks fairly readily (e.g.: Does the control of a shadow/spectre/wight/wraith created through the Create Spawn ability gained through a Shapechange go away when the caster changes forms?)
2) What exactly he's planning on doing that day (unlike a Sorcerer, a Wizard can change spells prepared out on a daily basis - and can keep some slots un-prepared for later use).
3) Which method he chooses to try and conquer the world (Undead armies, mind control, et cetera).

An exact spell list is hardly silly, since not every wizard knows every spell in the book. I mean, how are we planning on judging anything. EDIT: ninja'd


Nah - Shapechange + Veil. Turn into something that gets Lay on of Hands as a Su ability. Keep your healing to the injured, and you're fine.

Too limited in scope. And no Resurrections.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 11:27 PM
1: You are controlling the Succubus via Telepathic Bond and have the HoS Dominated and answering your questions. As the Succubus learns it's role(reasonable given the Int and bluff scores) it takes on the day-to-day lies and all you do is make decisions on major issues. So that's oh, more than 300(Are you going all the powerful people or just all the world leaders, because I'd like some people in the major corporations and such to even things out, which would add another 500) or so Succubus asking you questions on a near constant basis, directly into your head, who are always CE, and probably don't like that your forcing them to do things that are normally considered Lawful?


2: The spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) is...oddly worded. If the Succubus resists the initial save, it has no clue where you are, how to find you, or what you want. Once you catch it, though, some of them may escape. Those you have a Contingency set up to kill immediately.
What spells exactly, please.
I'd like to know if there would be that one in 20 chance of a demon succeeding on a save or die.

(Actualy, is 1 an auto fail?
I'm starting to think not, but what does 20 and 1 do too rolls?)

Yukitsu
2009-02-21, 11:31 PM
{Scrubbed}

Collin152
2009-02-21, 11:36 PM
Hm. Suppose one simply uses such spells as Sending, Dream, and Nightmare to coerce world leaders into doing your dirty work for you. If they don't comply with your telepathic requests, you hit them with a Nightmare a few nights in a row. It'll kill most normal humans pretty quickly. Maybe demonstrate on some of their staff before you kill them.

wadledo
2009-02-21, 11:40 PM
Hm. Suppose one simply uses such spells as Sending, Dream, and Nightmare to coerce world leaders into doing your dirty work for you. If they don't comply with your telepathic requests, you hit them with a Nightmare a few nights in a row. It'll kill most normal humans pretty quickly. Maybe demonstrate on some of their staff before you kill them.

I actually can't find any obvious flaw in this.
There would probably be a few people who would just go without sleep, and there's probably have to be a ruling about lead lined rooms eventually, but that would work, at least in the short term.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 11:41 PM
Hardly.
Given that it's all too easy for the Wizard to avoid ever being detected by the world at all

The "wizard wank" was directed at the specific responses which pertained to the wizard simply using basic encounter spells, not the idea in general that he would prevail.

Many of the ideas you have floated have been mentioned already, I'll have to sift through it all and see what new ideas there are.


Sorry if this comes of as a Wall-of-text.

tl;dr: Any reasonably intelligent wizard should be completely safe, and then taking over shouldn't be too difficult (mind control is just that good in a world that is otherwise without magic).

It does come off that way. :smalltongue:

Anyway, Domination can be spotted by a DC 15 Sense Motive. Easy to do, easy to counter. The Shadow Army was probably better.

Renegade Paladin
2009-02-21, 11:47 PM
Who cares? I'll be in Jamaica while lower Manhatten and every populated city on earth gets to go all world war Z on itself.
This doesn't win the scenario for you; you need to rule the world, not destroy it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-21, 11:49 PM
So that's oh, more than 300(Are you going all the powerful people or just all the world leaders, because I'd like some people in the major corporations and such to even things out, which would add another 500) or so Succubus asking you questions on a near constant basis, directly into your head, who are always CE, and probably don't like that your forcing them to do things that are normally considered Lawful?The number of nations that are actually influential on the world stage is much smaller than 300. Control the right ones and the others will follow your lead. Though maybe for the purposes of this thread we need to define "Rule the World". There are countries out there right now that no one controls in any real sense. Those countries don't obey anyone now. Does the Wizard have to control them, or could he Wight-Apocalypse those countries and then sell the real estate?
What spells exactly, please.
I'd like to know if there would be that one in 20 chance of a demon succeeding on a save or die.

(Actualy, is 1 an auto fail?
I'm starting to think not, but what does 20 and 1 do too rolls?)1 is an auto-fail. Of course, that assumes you allow a saving throw. Dimensional Anchor is a touch attack. It's easier to get a way to reroll attack rolls than it is to get one to make saves not auto-fail(since twin spell apparently isn't core), and then it's just you v a CR 7. Combine with traps for loads of fun.

Collin152
2009-02-21, 11:50 PM
I actually can't find any obvious flaw in this.
There would probably be a few people who would just go without sleep, and there's probably have to be a ruling about lead lined rooms eventually, but that would work, at least in the short term.

They can only go without sleep so long before they die, so the effect still hits. Eventually.
Also, it seems all these spells can be cast from other dimensions, though sending has a 5% chance of failing in such an event.
Hmm... KISS indeed. Just start with countries where the power is bottlenecked so you don't have to hit quite so many people with your magical form of The Oldest Form of Diplomacy.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-21, 11:52 PM
Alter self gives a +10 on disguise. Polymorph grants the physical statistics of said creature, important features including dexterity and natural armour. Polymorph has a long lasting limited duration, long enough to last a day's battle, or alternatively, through polymorph any object, an entire conquering. Etherealness, despite having a minutes per level duration, can be active all day long given the method I mentioned previously.

+10 is not going to save your ass against sophisticated detection methods like genetic fingerprinting. Polymorph any object will not last long enough for an entire conquering, or did you have some specific form in mind?


For me it is frankly, and that matters more than your opinion on the matter unless you would agree that I could call you essentially whatever I want without it being worth complaining about.

And going by that standard, I could complain about any wording you choose and presume to be offended.


Go on, post that in its full context. I already know that you're taking a fragment of a sentance as opposed to saying anything meaningful here. In fact, I'll do it myself.

See how this has nothing to do with an omni-statement of omniscience? They can do any wizardly action that they want, and there will be no retaliation, which is coincidently a problem that you haven't countered, save by saying that technology doesn't detect it. The fact that technology can't really detect it in any special way is just saying that the wizard that uses it is even more invincible than normal.

It came off as precisely that and you know it, so kindly don't suggest that I quoted you out of context, as I posted the exact same section you just did.

The claim that technology cannot detect magic in any special way is just silly. The concept was that it can detect the effects of magic as something other, and several methods of this have been mentioned.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-21, 11:53 PM
If we don't though, it becomes more of an exercise of who can post faster, he person looking up the spells that will counteract the ways the person trying to refute it, or the person trying to refute it, or the person who calmly points out that there is a very small chance of your wizard having more than 804 spells per day of 7th level and above.:smallannoyed:
True, but my wizard is generally running out for one encounter in a day, for which he's prepared explicitly, which he is running as a surgical strike, and is considering "teleport retreat" to be plan-A for anything unexpected. Most days, he spends something like three rounds on the mortal plane, fully buffed. It's VERY easy to have all those defenses up in such a scenario.

Mind you, even if we do make an explicit spell list, there's a problem: it'll still become circular. See, opponents for whatever method the Wizard is trying will pore over it, find something that would take quite some time to figure out without full knowledge of the Wizard's spell list, capabilities, and tactics, and post counters... forgetting that the Wizard's biggest strength is that he can adapt to an altered situation. Then they'll call Schroedinger's Wizard on the wizard proponent.

The Minx
2009-02-21, 11:58 PM
Establish a base-of-operations anywhere in the world such as the previously-mentioned underground cavern carved via desintigrate. Summoned creatures could also create/teleport materials into such an area and/or help carve it out, and with a Lyre of Building (not terribly expensive at level 20) those materials could be turned into any number of things (polymorph any object and such could make further changes). While your resting place (or resting places - more would be safer. Perhaps some reachable and some not?) should be safe enough that no real buildings should be needed, there's no harm in including them in (Having one resting place being just a cavern small enough to sleep in with a spare spellbook would help incase the larger bases can be detected).

This lacks imagination. :smallsmile:

What would I do? Go incognito, buy a telescope and study the moon. Why? So I can polymorph to something which does not breathe, Greater Teleport to the moon and establish my base of operations there, in a MMM, underground. Not much that can be done to that.

Or better yet, Dominate Person on some staff at NASA to point it at Mars. Study the surface for a while, then Greater Teleport there as before. No chance of counter attack.

As for the lack of air, carve a cave out, and if I have to, set up permanent walls of force to keep some air in.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-22, 12:02 AM
True, but my wizard is generally running out for one encounter in a day, for which he's prepared explicitly, which he is running as a surgical strike, and is considering "teleport retreat" to be plan-A for anything unexpected. Most days, he spends something like three rounds on the mortal plane, fully buffed. It's VERY easy to have all those defenses up in such a scenario.

Mind you, even if we do make an explicit spell list, there's a problem: it'll still become circular. See, opponents for whatever method the Wizard is trying will pore over it, find something that would take quite some time to figure out without full knowledge of the Wizard's spell list, capabilities, and tactics, and post counters... forgetting that the Wizard's biggest strength is that he can adapt to an altered situation. Then they'll call Schroedinger's Wizard on the wizard proponent.

What, exactly, is wrong with calling Schroedinger's Wizard? That is exactly what the problem is with wizard vs whatever threads like these: you get to make up combos to whatever the other guy says AFTER the fact. At best, you can call these contests meaningless since there is no agreed-upon standard to what may or may not be done.


What would I do? Go incognito, buy a telescope and study the moon. Why? So I can polymorph to something which does not breathe, Greater Teleport to the moon and establish my base of operations there, in a MMM, underground. Not much that can be done to that.

Traitor. :smallannoyed:

Yukitsu
2009-02-22, 12:03 AM
+10 is not going to save your ass against sophisticated detection methods like genetic fingerprinting. Polymorph any object will not last long enough for an entire conquering, or did you have some specific form in mind?

The duration of polymorph any object is permanent for many forms. Polymorph is not alter self. Alter self gives +10. Polymorph changes your body into another form, so say, a stone golem that the radar picks up as a chunk of inert rock, or as a tree that it detects as an inert tree, or any entity that is too hard via natural armour and dexterity for conventional weaponry to effect. Shapechange, which is not as long lasting can even include immunity to unconventional weaponry, as it allows for incorporeal forms.


And going by that standard, I could complain about any wording you choose and presume to be offended.

And if you do, I'll stop within reason as opposed to presuming that no one should be offended by the insults I let out. If I'm accusing you of doing something, you can't deny that using disgusting terms is different from typical conversational terms.


It came off as precisely that and you know it, so kindly don't suggest that I quoted you out of context, as I posted the exact same section you just did.

With a lack of the others. My claim is that a wizard can do anything that a wizard can do, and that no one can retalliate, and if you can't get that from the full sentance or paragraph, as opposed from half of the sentance then that's your reading comprehension at fault, not my writing.


The claim that technology cannot detect magic in any special way is just silly. The concept was that it can detect the effects of magic as something other, and several methods of this have been mentioned.

As of yet, we can't detect ghosts. If they do exist, then we don't have the technology, and if they don't, it's up in the air. We can't detect where a wizard is when all we can see is his projected image. Note that a projected image can fight, that's why it's a relevant spell. Our technology can't detect an individual that has literally become a creature of rock, and discern it from surrounding rock, and military technology does not come equipped with the necessary tools to find an earthglider.

wadledo
2009-02-22, 12:03 AM
Mind you, even if we do make an explicit spell list, there's a problem: it'll still become circular. See, opponents for whatever method the Wizard is trying will pore over it, find something that would take quite some time to figure out without full knowledge of the Wizard's spell list, capabilities, and tactics, and post counters... forgetting that the Wizard's biggest strength is that he can adapt to an altered situation. Then they'll call Schroedinger's Wizard on the wizard proponent.

I think one of the problems is that it is the wizard against the world.
All of them.

So there's the slightest chance that someone in a position of power will do the perfect thing to stop the wizard.
That is a very small chance that the perfect set of circumstances will happen, but otherwise, there is no chance for the wizard to lose.
I admit that at least.

Renegade Paladin
2009-02-22, 12:04 AM
So, using a firetruck to shoot holy water at incorporeal creatures will not work, so the only alternative is to arm citizens with holy water and ready actions to pour it over shadows as they approach.
Ummm... No? It says the flask won't break if you throw it at an incorporeal creature. The flask breaking isn't what causes the harm; the holy water is. If the holy water is sprayed out of a fire hose, then the holy water is touching the shadow.

Shovah
2009-02-22, 12:06 AM
It does come off that way. :smalltongue:

Anyway, Domination can be spotted by a DC 15 Sense Motive. Easy to do, easy to counter. The Shadow Army was probably better.

Guess I should try to ramble less then :smallredface:.

But in a world with no magic, what would it be spotted as? Even if it was spotted and considered serious enough to get your leader kicked out, why not just dominate the next guy?
Or if that one's too much work, the Disguised-succubus idea could work nicely too. Or getting yourself into power instead?

A succubus servant with an at-will item of Glibness (anyone know what this would cost?) could bluff anyone into believing pretty much anything, and would be very helpful in alot of situations. Heck, use that item yourself. +30 from the Glibness, a reasonable Cha-score, some cross-class ranks (hey, with that massive int you should have plenty of points to spare), maybe an item to help, +items to increase your Charisma score itself and you can do pretty much the same thing yourself. Never under-estimate a good bluff.

Collin152
2009-02-22, 12:07 AM
Do you think Misdirection could fool the super-technologies that get past invisibility?
Assuming you're out in the open long enough for those to be useful and they know it's you doing it, considering how many remote spells like Nightmare for political assasinations and illusion spells for looking differant every time you show up somewhere there are. I mean, it's not like we're popping into Time Square and blasting fire from our hands. THat'd be plain nutty.

wadledo
2009-02-22, 12:08 AM
The number of nations that are actually influential on the world stage is much smaller than 300. Control the right ones and the others will follow your lead. Though maybe for the purposes of this thread we need to define "Rule the World". There are countries out there right now that no one controls in any real sense. Those countries don't obey anyone now. Does the Wizard have to control them, or could he Wight-Apocalypse those countries and then sell the real estate?But what about senates, parlaments, advisers, and other people who keep everything in check?
A good number of world governments are set up so that no one person will have enough power to screw us all over.

1 is an auto-fail. Of course, that assumes you allow a saving throw. Dimensional Anchor is a touch attack. It's easier to get a way to reroll attack rolls than it is to get one to make saves not auto-fail(since twin spell apparently isn't core), and then it's just you v a CR 7. Combine with traps for loads of fun.I apologize for repeating myself a hundred and two times(:smallredface:) but I need something concrete or all I can say to that is since you don't post anything, I can only assumed by traps you mean a banana peel on the floor.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-22, 12:09 AM
Ummm... No? It says the flask won't break if you throw it at an incorporeal creature. The flask breaking isn't what causes the harm; the holy water is. If the holy water is sprayed out of a fire hose, then the holy water is touching the shadow.

Why do I suddenly have the hilarious mental image of a *insert religious official of choice here* standing in the back of a firetruck, waving one hand and frantically chanting words from *insert holy book of choice here* to bless the water as firefighters are pumping it out at an army of shadows?

Renegade Paladin
2009-02-22, 12:09 AM
A contingent Teleport for, say, "max range straight up if anyone detects my presence" keeps him reasonably safe (have fun pinning him down when he's suddenly 2,000 miles straight up as soon as you know where he is).
That would make it ludicrously easy to deal with him, actually; locate him and he dies of explosive decompression. :smallsmile:

Lord Zentei
2009-02-22, 12:11 AM
The duration of polymorph any object is permanent for many forms. Polymorph is not alter self. Alter self gives +10. Polymorph changes your body into another form, so say, a stone golem that the radar picks up as a chunk of inert rock, or as a tree that it detects as an inert tree, or any entity that is too hard via natural armour and dexterity for conventional weaponry to effect. Shapechange, which is not as long lasting can even include immunity to unconventional weaponry, as it allows for incorporeal forms.

For many forms, not all, specifically ones that are less powerful. The description for polymorph explicitly states that it is like Alter Self, except as noted, hence it gives +10 to disguise.


And if you do, I'll stop within reason as opposed to presuming that no one should be offended by the insults I let out. If I'm accusing you of doing something, you can't deny that using disgusting terms is different from typical conversational terms.

"Disgusting terms", eh? Perhaps you should be less sensitive. No insult was intended, certainly.


With a lack of the others. My claim is that a wizard can do anything that a wizard can do, and that no one can retalliate, and if you can't get that from the full sentance or paragraph, as opposed from half of the sentance then that's your reading comprehension at fault, not my writing.

"The others", indeed. You stated yourself that I had snipped a sentence out of context, and then proceeded to post the exact same snipped I did.


As of yet, we can't detect ghosts. If they do exist, then we don't have the technology, and if they don't, it's up in the air. We can't detect where a wizard is when all we can see is his projected image. Note that a projected image can fight, that's why it's a relevant spell. Our technology can't detect an individual that has literally become a creature of rock, and discern it from surrounding rock, and military technology does not come equipped with the necessary tools to find an earthglider.

As of yet, we have no confirmation that ghosts even exist, so that is irrelevant. Projected image is just that: an image, it won't detect as an actual body on detection methods such as active sonar, etc.

Collin152
2009-02-22, 12:14 AM
As of yet, we have no confirmation that ghosts even exist, so that is irrelevant. Projected image is just that: an image, it won't detect as an actual body on detection methods such as active sonar, etc.

If ghosts don't exist, how would we have technology capable of detecting them?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-22, 12:16 AM
But what about senates, parlaments, advisers, and other people who keep everything in check?
A good number of world governments are set up so that no one person will have enough power to screw us all over. My opinion of parlimentary systems would get the thread locked for political, so I'm skipping that point. :smallfrown:
I apologize for repeating myself a hundred and two times(:smallredface:) but I need something concrete or all I can say to that is since you don't post anything, I can only assumed by traps you mean a banana peel on the floor.It's after midnight here and I'm lazy, sorry. I was thinking things like Dominate Monster and Dimension Lock traps under the Magic Circle. After all, all traps need is cash, and the Wizard should be able to get that fairly easily.

Yahzi
2009-02-22, 12:18 AM
Can I have a cleric? 3rd level. Give me Augury and a day-trader stock account.

:smallbiggrin:

Lord Zentei
2009-02-22, 12:18 AM
If ghosts don't exist, how would we have technology capable of detecting them?

Heh, nice point. Counter: if ghosts don't exist, why would that even be relevant?

Anyway it's not "we" who are the issue, it's d20 Modern. We could put in a call to Dr Benkman, Dr Stantz, Dr Spengler and Mr Tully. :smallwink:

Collin152
2009-02-22, 12:19 AM
It's late here, but let me throw this out before I retire: Control Weather. As irecall, Really, Really bad weather really messes with a country's economy, and therefore, political stability, doesn't it?

Yukitsu
2009-02-22, 12:19 AM
For many forms, not all, specifically ones that are less powerful. The description for polymorph explicitly states that it is like Alter Self, except as noted, hence it gives +10 to disguise.

And that +10 is entirely irrelevant compared to say, the +25 AC that a horned devil could grant for a full week.


"Disgusting terms", eh? Perhaps you should be less sensitive. No insult was intended, certainly.

I think it would be best if you not press the matter and simply not use the term again.


"The others", indeed. You stated yourself that I had snipped a sentence out of context, and then proceeded to post the exact same snipped I did.

I suggest you read it again. I posted the entire paragraph in that quote, while you quoted "wizards can do anything they want" which has nothing to do with the full statement of the paragraph.


As of yet, we have no confirmation that ghosts even exist, so that is irrelevant. Projected image is just that: an image, it won't detect as an actual body on detection methods such as active sonar, etc.

Yes, the projected image is more powerful because it can nuke people with enervate and none of our fancy targeting equipment can get a bead on it. Exactly my point. As for ghosts, what Collin said.

Lord Zentei
2009-02-22, 12:24 AM
And that +10 is entirely irrelevant compared to say, the +25 AC that a horned devil could grant for a full week.

Flamethrowers. Anyway, why have we discussed the disguise for so long if it was not your intention to use it?


I think it would be best if you not press the matter and simply not use the term again.

Wow, look what's that? Is it a bird? Is is a plane? Is it a moderator?

Oh, no. It's Yukitsu. Never mind.


I suggest you read it again. I posted the entire paragraph in that quote, while you quoted "wizards can do anything they want" which has nothing to do with the full statement of the paragraph

Bollocks. I posted your entire quote when you pressed the issue, as can be clearly seen above.


Yes, the projected image is more powerful because it can nuke people with enervate and none of our fancy targeting equipment can get a bead on it. Exactly my point. As for ghosts, what Collin said.

I have answered Colin. And your point totally misses mine: you can tell what the projected image is because it is visible, but does not register as solid. BTW, you need line of sight for projected image to even work. You are using your wizard as a front-liner. That is no way to operate.

wadledo
2009-02-22, 12:28 AM
On politics: We'll agree to disagree.
Unlike other people........>.>

It's after midnight here and I'm lazy, sorry. I was thinking things like Dominate Monster and Dimension Lock traps under the Magic Circle. After all, all traps need is cash, and the Wizard should be able to get that fairly easily.

Well, aside from the fact of what are you going to do with a dominated Succubus, I................
Please give me a moment, I think I need to go take a cold shower.:smalltongue:

pingcode20
2009-02-22, 12:29 AM
The problem with Projected Image is that you need to maintain Line of Effect - in other words, you need to be both within 300' (or 91 metres) from the projection, and a straight, unbroken line must be available between you and the image.

This means that by using Project Image, you're risking getting your Wizard discovered quite easily and stomped - especially considering that even a window blocks line of effect.

Roland St. Jude
2009-02-22, 12:36 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Apparently, I was incorrect. This is a not a topic that can be discussed in a civil manner within the rules. Please do not restart it.