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Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-22, 01:50 AM
The Sink spell in Spell Compendium makes 1 creature per 3 levels decend 100ft in a liquid in one turn. This is a 3rd level cleric/druid spell.

As I was reading this, it hit me. Air is classified as a liquid. Therefore, this makes this spell able to do 10d6 damage to flying things easily. And leave them on the ground. And, it affects multiple creatures.

arguskos
2009-02-22, 01:51 AM
Uh... air is a gas, if I recall my states of matter correctly. Though, that WOULD be amusing to see. :smallbiggrin:

Innis Cabal
2009-02-22, 01:54 AM
Air contains Water Vapor, but air is and of itself has not ever been considered a liquid. It is a gas.

Crow
2009-02-22, 01:54 AM
Yeah. Get that one past your DM.

Seriously folks. :smallsigh:

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 02:00 AM
Actually, from an engineering point of view (aka, mine) air is a fluid, but not a liquid. Sorry, doesn't work.

arguskos
2009-02-22, 02:02 AM
Even if the most generous DM on the face of the Earth called it a fluid, air is still in the gas form of matter. Sink clearly calls for something to be in the liquid state. This is just creative flubbing, not something that base reason would permit. :smallsigh:

Gotta say though, it's a hilarious idea, and I approve heartily of the effort in twisting it to perverted purposes, but WOOOOOOOOW. :smallbiggrin:

Innis Cabal
2009-02-22, 02:04 AM
I think at this level of word twisting the DM should take the person's dice, melt them down and make a small statue of the letters N and O and give them back to the player.

No matter what RAW says, there always will be RAI

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 02:06 AM
Check out Wingbind in the Spell Compendium. Does what you want it to do, although it is a 4th level spell, and only affacts a single creature, IIRC.

Otherwise, if you are fighting something with average or lower maneuverability, a well placed Solid Fog will induce a stall, causing the flying creature to fall. Best part about this trick is that there is NO SAVE and no SR CHECK. Just fail and fall. Very limited though, only really works against Wyverns and similar clumsy flyers, and only those who don't spend a feat on Hover. Anything with Good+ maneuverability can automatically hover.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-22, 02:39 AM
Oh no, I mixed up my definitions for liquid and fluid. Sorry...

arguskos
2009-02-22, 02:40 AM
No biggie dude. That's why we're here, to set folk straight and keep the Power Level Express from derailing into Crazy Overpowered Town. :smallwink:

Draz74
2009-02-22, 03:05 AM
No matter what RAW says, there always will be RAI


if you are fighting something with average or lower maneuverability, a well placed Solid Fog will induce a stall, causing the flying creature to fall. Best part about this trick is that there is NO SAVE and no SR CHECK. Just fail and fall. Very limited though, only really works against Wyverns and similar clumsy flyers, and only those who don't spend a feat on Hover. Anything with Good+ maneuverability can automatically hover.

Ironic that these happened directly in a row ...

Keld, your trick works just fine by RAW. But if I were the DM, I would rule it invalid by RAI for several reasons.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-22, 03:11 AM
It's perfectly reasonable that a really thick cloud could stall a flyer. Why wouldn't an impediment stall a big thing and cause it to fall?

Lots of things have good or perfect manoeuverability though. Which won't fall victim to it therefore.

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 03:21 AM
Just curious, but why? Its like pulling on the tail of bird or something. If it can't fly forward, it falls. Solid Fog would slow its forward movement, essentially "pulling on its tail", which, after momentum is lost, would induce a stall. Depending on height, the stalled target wouldn't have enough room to pull out of the stall thus impacting the ground like a proverbial cloth sack filled with masonary blocks.

The physics works out and the RAW works out. The only problem you have with it is a player using a creative solution to a given problem. Thats generally called "railroading", since no matter what creative solutions the players come up with, they will always fail because they don't align with your perceived solution. Improv happens.

And how many flying monsters are there out there with average or worse maneuverability? I can only think of Wyverns, Manitcores, Sphinxes, and Dragons. Dragons easily have the intelligence, magical prowass, and spare feats to improve their mobility or gain Freedom of Movement, negating the tactic.

Plus, there is the fact that Solid Fog is a Range: Close spell. That means you pretty much already have to be flying to be able to use it effectively. Now you've burned a 3rd level slot and a 4th level slot to ground a flying foe. You could have just as easily cast fly on your fighter friend and then Enervated the flying guy so he can PA for more. I think you are just having a knee-jerk reaction to something you perceive as OP, but really is still in line with its opportunity cost, if the player is even clever enough to come up with it on their own.

RebelRogue
2009-02-22, 09:32 AM
Plus, there is the fact that Solid Fog is a Range: Close spell. That means you pretty much already have to be flying to be able to use it effectively.
Unless you happen to be an Arcane Archer... :smallamused:

martyboy74
2009-02-22, 10:47 AM
Wouldn't the solid fog prevent the creature from moving more than 5 feet downwards per round? The text says "any creature attempting to move through it progresses at a speed of 5 feet, regardless of its normal speed [...]" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidfog.htm)

Knaight
2009-02-22, 01:29 PM
Thats the main issue with it. If its impossible to fly forward quickly with solid fog, then you probably can't fall too quickly either. That said, when it comes to dropping flying creatures, I'm a fan of readied walls of force.

kjones
2009-02-22, 03:28 PM
Thats the main issue with it. If its impossible to fly forward quickly with solid fog, then you probably can't fall too quickly either. That said, when it comes to dropping flying creatures, I'm a fan of readied walls of force.

That would be my interpretation. However, there is still the matter of what happens when you get to the bottom.

Still, this doesn't seem to be all that much of an issue. Either it's a long fall, and they have enough time to pull out, or it's a short fall, and they don't take very much damage.

Although I must take issue with Keld Denar's assertion that this spell is useless against most flying foes. Take dragons, for example. A Level 7 wizard has access to the spell - he could cast it at a range of 40 feet. A reasonable encounter for a party with a level 7 wizard would be a young adult black dragon (CR 9). If the dragon tries to close to melee (how else is he going to deal damage when not breathing acid?) the wizard can ready an action to cast solid fog once within range. And a CR 9 monster should not have access to freedom of movement - he can't cast it himself, and a ring is 40k GP.

I suppose the fall wouldn't kill it, if it were that close, but it would certainly buy you a few rounds.

RebelRogue
2009-02-22, 03:35 PM
That would be my interpretation. However, there is still the matter of what happens when you get to the bottom.
The spell description states:

A creature or object that falls into solid fog is slowed, so that each 10 feet of vapor that it passes through reduces falling damage by 1d6.
But as has been mentioned, there's no rules for how slow you fall though the affected area.

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 07:56 PM
The exact trick is not to center the cloud on the dragon (or whatever) but to put it above and behind it so that only 10' of the cloud overlap wit the target. With low mobility, a flying creature has to fly a certain amount forward before it can turn, and it can't stop, thus is restricted to moving forward or moving down. It takes 1 action in either direction, so that only 5' of the cloud overlap, then takes its 2nd movement breaking free of the cloud. Unfortunately, the creature is then out of movement and hasn't fulfilled the minimum forward flight amount based on its maneuverability class and stalls. Since its no longer in the cloud, its free to freefall.

And the goal isn't to 1shot the dragon (or whatever) but instead to ground it where your non-caster support can actually participate in the fight. A 2nd application of Solid Fog would trap it on the ground, as would a Web or Wall of Thorns or similar spell.

Its not intended to be a foolproof "ZOMG HEAD SHOT" solution to every flying encounter, just a way to get a little more milage out of argueably one of the most useful 4th level spells in the game. Any caster I make around 7th level carries at least one every day, and more at higher levels because it remains decent all the way to level 20. Not perfect, but still pretty useful.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-22, 08:26 PM
Yay, Ill use solid fog instead.

It has a lot more use anyway, so it won't be wasted (far from it) if I fight non flying creatures.

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 08:44 PM
Yay, Ill use solid fog instead.

It has a lot more use anyway, so it won't be wasted (far from it) if I fight non flying creatures.

Exactly. Thats the point. Its just so darn useful. Its like having a gun, but knowing how to pistol whip someone with it. 9/10 times, you are just gonna shoot the sucker, but is some situations, you can also use it for more.

Remember the limitations, though. Its short range and requires your flying foe to have an average or worse manevuerability class, not have the Hover feat, and not have Freedom of Movement of some sort running.