The Three Fiends Discussion (fka What the Fiends are Offering)

[kpenguin]

Clearly they are offering V a doily in return for his soul.

[Mariel Dragon]

When I saw the letter they recieved, as well as the "I've never heard of you" "We are a new organization..." or something like that, I was reminded of scammers. Is there the possibility that those three fiends are going to scam V to get her soul?

[Lazy Fat Man]

Isn't that what all fiends, especially devils, try to do. None are ever on the up and up, so to speak.

[LurkerInPlayground]

We saw these guys talking to Sabine asking her to keep an eye out for something that could tip the balance between good and evil.

They're as honest as you could expect demons/devils/daemons to be.

[Sholos]

At least one of them is Lawful, yes? So you can expect the contract to be fulfilled to the letter, if nothing else. No direct breaking or lying will take place, just very carefully worded truths.

[Palliard]

They're scammers, to be sure, but with a devil on the team I'm sure they can be trusted to adhere to the letter of any agreement they make, if not the spirit of it. OTOH, with a demon on the team as well, they can be trusted to twist the meaning of any words until you get the opposite of what you wanted.

It's like selling your soul for a monkey-paw wish. It's a bad idea, but V doesn't have a lot of options.

[Ladorak]

Or he just *said* he was a devil... Can't see him under that cowl after all.

[Masterclick]

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Either that or the whole thing is a convoluted plot, like what Devils like to do...

Okay, Black Dragons are CE. It's rather out of character for a CE character to be pulling this kind of thing. CE would be more belkar-ish... i.e. "You killed my kid, I kill you". This whole "I'm going to kill your loved ones" thing is more lawful or neutral evil in flavor.

So, this infernal trio have decided that, from the reports of the imp, that V is what they are looking for... a Good, or at least Neutral, person who is already stressing out, and can likely be tempted to the side of Evil fairly easily.

So they talk to a random black dragon and say "Hey, want to go terrorize an elf? This one killed off a young black dragon about a hundred or so strips back. So, since it is probably too stupid to tell the difference between any given black dragon and another, you can do the whole 'bla bla bla and I'll kill your loved ones too', and scare the piss out of it! Best part is, when you teleport out, we'll give you some coupons for discounts on our services, and the elf will think you're going to be munching on it's spouse! Hell, we'll even tell you later where the spouse is and go eat it anyways."

Then cue the imp again, floats the offer just as the Elf is getting desperate, and now you've got a potential for dropping this powerful wizard's alignment to Evil by going along with this deal.

The dragon is not going to be killing V's spouse, there is no time stop around the island, it's a hoax. An elaborate plot to turn the wizard to a force of evil. Because an hour in three different hells doesn't sound so bad compared to saving a spouse, but by doing so, you will be turning your alignment to Evil, because you are in effect paving the way for their ultimate plans of destroying heaven by getting all the forces of Evil to work together, and V knows it. And if V's alignment turns Evil, he belongs to one of them anyways, because that is where evil people go when they die.

So you get a powerful Wizard turned to Evil, furthering your goals, being a proven test case for your theories, AND you get to keep the soul when it dies! Well worth the price of setting up a Black Dragon to get hardcore pwnt.

[ericgrau]

Not only are they Sabine's supervisors, but Sabine told them about the gates and that the OotS was out to save them. According to Rich Roy's rez is supposed to come at a major personal cost to one of the members of the OotS or something like that. The deal offered by the 3 fiends - filling Vaarsuvius holes and offering more power than anyone has ever had - seems to fit "ultimate arcane power" pretty closely.

I think...
The 3 fiends know Vaarsuvius is out to save the gates. They want control of his soul at exactly the right moment when he is around the gates. Which she should reach with ease upon becoming the most powerful spellcaster in the world. Then they can manipulate the situation to their own purposes. And V is going to fulfill the prophecy and take the deal.

They are being careful to make the deal seem harmless and appealing to get a mortal to agree to it, otherwise Vaarsuvius would (and is) skeptical about accepting such a thing. Thing is, they are going to stick to the terms exactly as stated without twisting them to get anything more; but that's exactly what the fiends need to get the gate.

[magic9mushroom]

One hour is more than enough time to chuck someone into the Maggot Pit.

[Optimystik]

...And pull him out again.

I'm not saying they'll just give him a tour of hell's fine facilities and send him on his way, but neither will they do something in that hour that will kill or cripple V either. It might just be wishful thinking on my part, but they don't really rub me as being as bad to the bone as... say, Xykon.

[slayerx]

Okay, Black Dragons are CE. It's rather out of character for a CE character to be pulling this kind of thing. CE would be more belkar-ish... i.e. "You killed my kid, I kill you". This whole "I'm going to kill your loved ones" thing is more lawful or neutral evil in flavor.

Not necessarily... the dragon is not gonna kill V's children (two of them when V only killed one of her's) because it is the most fair thing to do, she is doing it because she understands that it is the most cruel thing she could do. In fact, she's even going the extra length to bind the children to herself so that they can not be resurrected and prevent them from moving on to the after life... hell, she even alluded that she might just turn V's spouse into a hat, even though V had nothing to do with the death of the Dragon's husband

[SirEdward]

They are evil, so I expect that the temporary trip to the Lower Planes will not be pleasant. Even so, these fiends are not looking to blindside V, as he is simply an experiment to them. They probably just need to have V balance the soul ledger.

Even so,
I think the other souls may seek to make their fusion more permanent with their epic magic. After all, tagging along with a stupid elf lowbie is immeasurably better than spending time in the Abyss.

Also
The problem with a Faustian deal is that it tends to darken one's mind. V might only be contractually destined for a finite period in each of the Lower Planes, but he might also EARN a place in one of them.

[Wraithfighter]

"Okay, your first job under my command is go kill your family. Then kill as many members of the Order of the Stick as you can, starting with Haley, Roy and Elan."

I mean, they are Evil and all. A wizard of V's power could do a whole lot of damage in the time he'll be owing.

[The Extinguisher]

Given their offer, and the title of the comic, I find myself thinking that V is going to have this Splice for a LOT longer than a week.

[Defiant]

"Okay, your first job under my command is go kill your family. Then kill as many members of the Order of the Stick as you can, starting with Haley, Roy and Elan."

I mean, they are Evil and all. A wizard of V's power could do a whole lot of damage in the time he'll be owing.

But they clearly said that she could remain in control of herself throughout the entire thing. The only thing they'd have control over is her soul. So while she spends an hour to save her family, she will have to spend three hours in hell whatever that will entail.

[Solara]

It might just be wishful thinking on my part, but they don't really rub me as being as bad to the bone as... say, Xykon.

Yeah, I'm going with wishful thinking. We don't really know anything about these guys at this point, except that they've probably got more to gain by this bargain than they're letting on...aand I'm going on the assumption that effective evil is better at disguising what it really is when it suits its purposes.

[The Minx]

But they clearly said that she could remain in control of herself throughout the entire thing. The only thing they'd have control over is her soul. So while she spends an hour to save her family, she will have to spend three hours in hell whatever that will entail.

They only said that he would be in control during the soul splice, not during the time that they get the soul in return.

[Solara]

Also
The problem with a Faustian deal is that it tends to darken one's mind. V might only be contractually destined for a finite period in each of the Lower Planes, but he might also EARN a place in one of them.

Interesting, I hadn't even considered that one, but I'm guessing it's pretty much a given at this point...especially when/if he winds up taking the deal for 'all the wrong reasons'. (thinking about the power itself instead of saving his family? ...of course this is assuming 'Disintegrate. Gust of Wind.' wasn't already it...)

I'm betting turning him evil is just a bonus though, my theory is still that this is all about the Snarl...any member of the OotS might be pre-approved, for all we know.

[theMycon]

They are evil, so I expect that the temporary trip to the Lower Planes will not be pleasant. Unless they want to get him hooked. If you've got an elf's lifetime to work with, why shoot your load in five minutes?

[Trazoi]

Given their offer, and the title of the comic, I find myself thinking that V is going to have this Splice for a LOT longer than a week.
That's my take on it too. From a narrative perspective, the sort of infernal deal I'd like to see are those without any hidden catch, save for inflaming the darkness that was already there in the first place.

That means that, I hope when it comes to V's four very famous words...
..that they won't be when V accepts the Soul Bind deal, they will be when V won't give them up.

[sum1won]

The fine print seems to be that after V loses control, you have 3 evil supercharged spellcasters running around in the same body.

[Occasional Sage]

Yes. Yes, there is certainly a chance that they are lying weasel scam artists.

[Hippoboy]

Maybe the deal itself won't damn V but what if their giving her/him a taste of power and when the deal is up (with V tasting such extreme power) that they make her a second deal, more power (but probably not the same as the current deal) but that she dedicates her/him self to evil/destruction/blowing stuff up.

But really who could refuse such godlike power?

[kusje]

So they talk to a random black dragon and say "Hey, want to go terrorize an elf? This one killed off a young black dragon about a hundred or so strips back. So, since it is probably too stupid to tell the difference between any given black dragon and another, you can do the whole 'bla bla bla and I'll kill your loved ones too', and scare the piss out of it! Best part is, when you teleport out, we'll give you some coupons for discounts on our services, and the elf will think you're going to be munching on it's spouse! Hell, we'll even tell you later where the spouse is and go eat it anyways."


Too many holes. Black dragon knew about Roy's spirit bothering the oracle and the Oracle told Roy that someone was flying in.

[kusje]

"Okay, your first job under my command is go kill your family. Then kill as many members of the Order of the Stick as you can, starting with Haley, Roy and Elan."

I mean, they are Evil and all. A wizard of V's power could do a whole lot of damage in the time he'll be owing.

I'm sure they are powerful enough to do that on their own (or through other proxies). Why bother with V if thats what they want?

[Cúchulainn]

They just outlined how they will destroy everything holy and good in the realms and you think they're scammers when they offer someone a contract for their soul? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Penquin47]

I don't think accepting the fiends' deal can be the cause of the four words.

All the wrong reasons? Somehow "saving my spouse and children" doesn't seem like a wrong reason to me.

[Hippoboy]

I'm sure they are powerful enough to do that on their own (or through other proxies). Why bother with V if thats what they want?

The Irony would be delicious, anyone who's finished KOTOR on the dark side could get what I mean.

[Sabin Marcus]

...but [the Fiends] don't really rub me as being as bad to the bone as... say, Xykon.

Um... what? I know they're being awfully cordial, and having not-quite-completely-evil fiends might serve the comedic purposes of this comic, but they're fiends. Their defining characteristic is being literally composed of the primeval essence of evil itself. Xykon might not have the patience to mind his etiquette, but as far as truly being evil goes, he's second bananas to any fiend by definition.

[Masterclick]

I don't think accepting the fiends' deal can be the cause of the four words.

All the wrong reasons? Somehow "saving my spouse and children" doesn't seem like a wrong reason to me.

Yes, but this is coming from a kobold oracle who is partial to the draconic family. He might see it as the wrong reason: killing a dragon. The kobold never said it had to be all the wrong reasons for V, just all the wrong reasons.

[Optimystik]

Um... what? I know they're being awfully cordial, and having not-quite-completely-evil fiends might serve the comedic purposes of this comic, but they're fiends. Their defining characteristic is being literally composed of the primeval essence of evil itself. Xykon might not have the patience to mind his etiquette, but as far as truly being evil goes, he's second bananas to any fiend by definition.

Having read SoD, and seeing Xykon's treatment of Right-Eye, I'm not so sure. Certainly he wasn't concerned about what was "fair." But then the Fiends are employing a classic tactic - i.e., downplaying what they get out of the pact - so it may end up far more sinister than it seems at present.

Having said that, I think Trazoi's prediction is key. V will only be in real danger if he deviates from the plan, to my mind.

[derfenrirwolv]

A few points.


1) The time doesnt appear to have to be consecutive. 1 feind could get him for 1 hour, and another fiend could get him for another hour months latter.

2) The feinds could sub divide it further , and only controll him for a minute at a time.

3) Theres the old "wishing for a million more wishes" trick , but i think thats a bit beneath even them.

4) It doesn't need to be xykon as the other half of the divine/arcane caster combo required to controll the gates and the snarl. V might step in, and then bam.. the fiends rearrange the universe to their hearts content.

[Optimystik]

4) It doesn't need to be xykon as the other half of the divine/arcane caster combo required to controll the gates and the snarl. V might step in, and then bam.. the fiends rearrange the universe to their hearts content.

Or more accurately, hold the gods hostage until they do it.

[Tempest Fennac]

What exactly does the Maggot Pit do, magic9mushroom? I'm not that familiar with D&D's evil afterlifes.

[Tubercular Ox]

A lot of you guys seem to think the fiends want to make V's life personally miserable... the maggot pit, destroy his family, stuff like that. These are guys with a plan. They're going to use their time to further their own goals. And as kusje says, they're probably a lot stronger than V h**self.

I've thought about a lot of things I could say after that statement, but they all amount to the same thing: What DO the fiends get out of this? If I thought reading Fiendish Codex II could give me the answers...

[Klose_the_Sith]

"Okay, your first job under my command is go kill your family. Then kill as many members of the Order of the Stick as you can, starting with Haley, Roy and Elan."

I mean, they are Evil and all. A wizard of V's power could do a whole lot of damage in the time he'll be owing.

V would be owned.

[Mariel Dragon]

I made this thread before the most recent strip. Now it is obvious that they are serious.

[Raging Gene Ray]

They just outlined how they will destroy everything holy and good in the realms and you think they're scammers when they offer someone a contract for their soul? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

QFT.

If there's any way at all they can screw V and the rest of Multiverse over beyond what they have already explicitly stated as part of the deal, I'd like to hear it.

[Ancalagon]

The fiends lie. They want more from Vaarsuvius.

[sleepy]

Does it stick out to anyone else that, though V stated it, the IFCC's clarification on their ownership of V's soul did not include the "after I die" clause?

And that the "complete control" clauses are for the duration of the splice, which lasts as long as you can "hold on" to it?

Kinda looks to me like losing hold on the splice might result in V's soul being immediately shunted to the lower planes, leaving the IFCC's wizards in charge of the body. For a limited duration, sure, but the IFCC has already demonstrated their fondness for stopping time when its passage is inconvenient.


ps. why do people assume that the IFCC's manners indicate *anything* about their relative evil-ness? Being socially challenged is not a requisite of evil. Self-serving manipulation is an Evil practice, according to DnD definitions. They're running a con here, of course they're beng polite.

[Aenghus]

It immediately occurs to me that since the fiends can stop time better than a Time Stop spell, apparently, one objective hour could be a very long time subjectively. Hell (sorry), if they have total control of a demiplane of Hell they can make an hour last forever if they want.

Could they splice V's soul to someone else during that duration, I wonder, potentially even Xykon.

[Sophismata]

The deal seems simple (and honest), but there seem to be a few catches.

* Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

* V is Neutral, and highly egotistical.

* While V may have control over the soul splice, she will also be sharing her soul with the three incredibly Evil mages, who may have a great deal of influence over her. Note that this does not preclude V from having "complete control".

* If she falls in alignment to Evil, then her soul goes to the Lower Planes anyway. V is hardly a paragon of virtue - it is not a stretch of the imagination that she could end up this way.

[magic9mushroom]

What exactly does the Maggot Pit do, magic9mushroom? I'm not that familiar with D&D's evil afterlifes.

Consumes you and turns you into a lemure.

[Trazoi]

It immediately occurs to me that since the fiends can stop time better than a Time Stop spell, apparently, one objective hour could be a very long time subjectively. Hell (sorry), if they have total control of a demiplane of Hell they can make an hour last forever if they want.

Could they splice V's soul to someone else during that duration, I wonder, potentially even Xykon.
It'd be a neat way to set up a pyramid scheme. Splice someone once, splice their soul three times later. :smallwink:

IMO, I doubt the IFCC want to personally torture V. I wouldn't put it above them, but I don't see them getting much out of that kind of deal. They might be evil, but they're ambitious evil. Whatever they have planned is far bigger than V.

[sleepy]

That means that, I hope when it comes to V's four very famous words...
..that they won't be when V accepts the Soul Bind deal, they will be when V won't give them up.

Interesting thought... combining your and my ideas then, suppose the 3 mages are under orders to allow V control until an order is given, then remove V from the splice and take over? And suppose then, that the 4 words are said during the power struggle for control and convert one (or more?) of the others, tipping the balance of power?

[Tempest Fennac]

:smalleek: Thanks for explaining, magic9mushroom. That is a disticnt possibility based on how they didn't say anything about V being free to go back to hos s/he was before getting the power.

[KIDS]

It depends on how the alignments and deals are treated in the author's system. I'd say that a deal with the devil is not valid if you were decieved (their purpose is to tempt), but Rich might not think the same way. Regardless, at the moment they do seem like someone V could trust...

Also reminds me of David Morgan-Mar's Irregular Webcomic:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5078/irreg0072ul1.jpg

[Iain]

It might be nothing, but - taking purple to be Chaotic Evil, orange to be Neutral Evil and yellow to be Lawful Evil, when V asks whether his soul will be in complete control - CEdric (happy to lie) is quick to just say yes, NEro (perhaps a little less likely to lie outright) says he'd get the final word (not quite the same as complete control), and LEe (honest about the letter of the rules) feels compelled to clarify that V would have complete control of the other three (not necessarily V's own?)

[factotum]

I wouldn't be surprised if the deal turns out exactly as the fiends say. However, as already pointed out in this thread, they didn't specify that V had to be dead before they got control of his soul, and these appear to be the same fiends that Sabine took the news of the Snarl and the gates to. It doesn't take a massive leap of logic to assume they'll wait for the opportune moment to take control of V so they can put their own plans for the Gate into effect.

I don't seriously think V is going to be able to hold the merge with the other three souls for more than a few minutes, incidentally--I think the "several weeks" is just a spicer to make the deal look better than it is.

[King of Nowhere]

What they want to do with V's soul once their part of the contract is fulfilled?
The contract is fair, but I think they have a big plan: they get access to the souls of a decent number of powerful spellcasters, then they take control of them all and make them open gates to invade the first material plane.
I don't think there are loopholes, no need for it. It would work perfectly for them.

A cruel possibility would be after V defeat the dragon, they take control of hir and order hir to kill the family, take the scrolls form the dead dragon, soul bind the children, teleport the gem to another plane and forget the location. That would take little time, and leave room for other uses of V.
I don't see this happening, because the fiends would take no advantage from it. If my first theory is accurate, they need good marketing for their contracts to get more clients.

[snafu]

They make it clear that V is in control of the combined entity. They don't say that the other three have no input at all. As I read it, any of the four can table a motion, but V has the casting vote and power of veto. So there's no risk of outright possession.

It still seems like the kind of experience that could change the nature of a man. What else comes in a soul-splice, besides the casting abilities? Memories, perhaps? A memory is more than a list of facts. These are spectacularly evil souls, so the memory of a particularly gruesome murder will go along with a happy and joyful emotional response. Memories of how good it felt to dismember the innocent, to put towns to fire and the sword, to rape and pillage all in your path across entire planes. Just the exposure to that kind of thing inside one's own head... that could be incredibly corrosive.

Even if V has the final word on all things, I wouldn't be surprised to find that those other three souls could be very, very persuasive in putting forward their own proposals for action.

[Undead Prince]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5809851&postcount=167) I've made some speculations on the fine print on the fiends' deal.

All-in-all, it seems surprisingly low-output considering how much they're investing. I'd bet they could achieve their goals without anything so exotic as a four-way Epic Gestalt. Dominate V, Control-Undead Xykon, maybe Resurrect a few of the mighty evil wizards - and they're rolling.

[afroakuma]

Orange is demonstrably Lee. The orange fiend is consistent with formal disclosures, fine print and other legalese manners of talking:

"We offer a trade of one good for one service"
"Each of us has the power, as duly appointed representatives of our respective planar domains..."
"As a special, limited-time offer..."
"You would be the final word on what got done, how, and when"
"Exact order of custody to be determined at a later point."

[Amon Star]

These three know about the Snarl. I'm sure this is a factor in their plans in some way.

[kpenguin]

Uh... they sort of state their goals right in the strip.

What's that you say? Fiends who are the embodiment of evil might try to hide their motivations? Oh, posh. You people are so distrusting.

[Reluctance]

Monkey-paw on the whole deal, nothing says that the fiends can't control V while the gestalt is still going. Controlling V to, amongst other things, maintain the gestalt can extend such control into perpetuity. It's also worth noting that V can dismiss one of the souls without dismissing the whole gestalt, which one of the fiends could take advantage of if they didn't mind undermining their whole IFCC scheme.

From a story standpoint, V is a PC. Being at the center of world-changing events is part of the territory. The gestalt itself should last a minute or so. We'll see the downside of the deal when V meets up with the Azurites again and we see what a high-level wizard can do to a few paladins in a minute or so. Second control-moment will come during some later plot TBD, while the last will be milked for dramatic tension right around the climactic confrontation with the snarl.

[Mando Knight]

Here's the real fine print:
They're offering more potential than any other mortal arane spellcaster who ever existed. The three spellcasters could indeed be totally useless and the fiends would still be upholding their end of the bargain, simply because there aren't any "arane" spellcasters for V to be greater than. :smalltongue:

Ganonron could have been playing RPGs and tactical games, thus qualifying for conquering world after world in the same way that Parson Gotti did. Bloodsoak may have ended the lives of vermin with nary a thought. And Jephton may just be insane and totally useless.

[Zanaril]

Don't forget, that they've already downplayed one bit of information: they said they were just waiting for the next request to come along so they could try this, but we know that they're interested in the snarl, and therfore V has probably been picked out personally. To me this really does suggest that they are not being truthfull about other things as well, and the sutuation is a lot less simple than it seems.

[MickJay]

The Fiends are disarmingly honest at explaining what their goals are - total destruction of the forces of good and conquest of eveything in existence and they explain how aiding V in his comparatively tiny problem will help them further their own goals. If the screw V over now, how would that look on their future brochures when they will be offering similar deals to other mortals, once the deals become more common? There might not even be more similar deals if this one ends poorly. I'd rather expect V to reject the offer on the grounds that accepting it might lead to destruction of all the non-evil planes rather than fearing he will get scammed (unless he accepts it, but after all that's been said, it would probaly turn him irrevocably evil).

[Calemyr]

One aspect that seems noteworthy is that I wonder if we're in another paradox scenario, and it simply isn't being recognized as such. The devil will always tell the truth but twist it to serve his purposes, the demon will lie through his teeth if he thinks he can get away with it.

As has already been discussed, Orange is likely the devil ("Lee") in this situation. However, Orange never suggests that this was a random chance. That was Yellow, who I believe to be the demon ("Cedrick"), since his provided soul was a sorceror whose presentation seemed to represent chaos. If Yellow is Cedrick, he'll lie whenever he thinks it will help his cause and his words should be trusted least of all.

So here's what I'm thinking:
1) These are the people Sabine works for (her constantly clouded affiliation seems to fit here).
2) They are no less interested in keeping the Snarl imprisoned than the Order and likely would want to keep Mr. Rule-The-World-Until-It-Bores-Me Xykon from succeeding. They likely also want that power for themselves.
3) They aren't out to torture V or even damn the elf's soul, at least, not all that much. What they really want is a wild card in this conflict, a thumb they can put on the balance any time they wish in order to get the result they want.
4) They are underestimating V's force of will... or banking on it. The longer V holds on to the Gestahlt, the more time they have to control V.
5) They will be able to take control of V at any time they desire even while V is alive. That is, in fact, the whole point of this farce. Living mortals are the key to this adventure and the fiends want to control the outcome.

Anyway, maybe not much new in this post, but I just had to say it.

[DigoDragon]

Seems almost easier to just let the spouse and kids be eaten, ressurecting them later after obtaining more loot. :smallsmile: however that makes for a boring story line so lets go get scammed!

[Undead Prince]

5) They will be able to take control of V at any time they desire even while V is alive.

I don't see how that is possible. All rules for Faustian Pacts in FCII say that the soul goes to the Hells AFTER death. V himself specifically iterates this point during negotiation. If the fiends are actually lying to him about it, the contract is null and void, because they would fail to live up to the bargain as concluded.

Moreover, there are NO rules to my knowledge in D&D to actually "control" the soul in this way while the subject is still alive. You know, free will and all.

Which is why I can't quite understand why the fiends would go to all these lengths instead of simply Dominating V and getting to the Snarl.

[Yougottawanna]

Obviously this deal is unlikely to work out well for V, but if it does go south I don't think it'll be because of some "literal genie" use of fine print. It would be more thematically and dramatically satisfying if the thing that dooms V is his own pride, not a legal loophole or creative use of time stop.

[Greep]

hey let's make this absurd again :D

So what if V, as previously suggested, doesn't want to give up the power. However, if he dies, he will eventually have to give it up, and he will be in for one heck of a hell-ride when the three demons get their way with him, because they will be pissed. IF he dies. Maybe V will really become a lich!

[Undead Prince]

IF he dies. Maybe V will really become a lich!

Becoming a lich is not the only way to be immortal. Off the top of my head: Undeath - Vampire or Necropolitan (both much easier to achieve than Lichdom, though without the useful phylactery perk). Creative use of Magic Jar or Mind Switch can give effective immortality if their numerous subsequent applications are properly treated by the DM. True Mind Switch (9th level Telepath) gives immortality with no loopholes - and not just that, but you can live your years with the body of a Great Wyrm, or a Tarrasque, or whatever other powerful monster you like.

[Greep]

Becoming a lich is not the only way to be immortal. Off the top of my head: Undeath - Vampire or Necropolitan (both much easier to achieve than Lichdom, though without the useful phylactery perk). Creative use of Magic Jar or Mind Switch can give effective immortality if their numerous subsequent applications are properly treated by the DM. True Mind Switch (9th level Telepath) gives immortality with no loopholes - and not just that, but you can live your years with the body of a Great Wyrm, or a Tarrasque, or whatever other powerful monster you like.

oh I know, it's just a play on a silly rumor that V was becoming a lich back when he was starting to fall apart.

I'm sure he could find some more creative ways for immortality than lichdom given his newfound powers.

[Mystral]

If I had to bet, I'd say that they are 3 Daemons who are doing what daemons do best, lying. I have no idea what they are up to, but thats typical for daemons too.

[Mr. Pin]

At least one of them is Lawful, yes? So you can expect the contract to be fulfilled to the letter, if nothing else. No direct breaking or lying will take place, just very carefully worded truths.

He says he is a devil. A scammer would say this. This does not mean that said scammer actually is a devil. In addition, he has already made a big deal out of his differentness from other devils (e.g. he is not killing the demon).

Although we have no way of knowing, it's a plausible theory. And I think we all know these guys are going to scam her in some way; the only question is whether they scam her and fill out their side of the contract (this is the more common Faustian pact) or just lie about everything and get her soul anyways. Personally, I think #1 would make for a better story, but with the giant, you never know.

[Morgan Wick]

Seems almost easier to just let the spouse and kids be eaten, ressurecting them later after obtaining more loot. :smallsmile: however that makes for a boring story line so lets go get scammed!

Didn't the dragon say she was going to do something with the kids' souls?

[Fjolnir]

you're dealing with 3 atypical fiends here, the only one who's really coming from a fairly normal position is the NE one, who will work for either side in the blood war, this group is clearly a NE organizaton (evil for the sake of evil) though it's being supported by these other fiends because they understand that the underlying goal (the utter annihilation of their other foes, then they can go back to warring with each other) is worth a temporary (these are immortal outsiders, ANY alliance is temporary, unless somehow creation is unmade by something[Ie: the snarl]) so it's in their best interest to have an "in" as it were to the prevention of the unmaking of reality since if they ARE sabine's bosses they would know about the order of the stick AND their names because she would probably not only mention the gates, and their ability to unmake creation, she would also likely point out the major players in the conflict (the order, xykon, redcloak's goblins, the linear guild) because anything that hinders THEIR ability to harness the power of the gates also hinders their long term plans

[Morgan Wick]

Given their offer, and the title of the comic, I find myself thinking that V is going to have this Splice for a LOT longer than a week.

I read the title as referring to the last two panels, in other words, to the IFCC itself.

[Tessa]

I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere but the fine print to the contract could lie in the fact that time moves differently on different planes.

[Tessa]

hit return by accident :smallfurious:

Anyway, say V has the power of the three splices for five hours. S/he then loses it and has to spend five hours (Prime Material Plane Time) in the Lower Planes. Sadly, five hours of PMP time is something like fifty years on the lower planes so by the time V returns, five of "our" hours later, S/he has been totally corrupted and evilized.

PS
Yes I know that "Evilized" is not a word.

[Morgan Wick]

hit return by accident :smallfurious:

You do see the "edit" button next to your posts, don't you? :smallfurious::smallfurious:

[Tessa]

Well, I do now. :smallyuk:

[Ron Miel]

Anyone remember Yamara from Dragon magazine? (My god, that must be 16 or 17 years ago. How time flies. But I digress)

There was a suspiciously similar trio of characters in that strip. Do you think there's any connection?

see here (http://www.yamara.com/yamaraclassic/index.php?date=2005-07-18) if you don't know the strip.

[Dixieboy]

Apart from looking alike there is no resemblance

[Dixieboy]

...And pull him out again.

I'm not saying they'll just give him a tour of hell's fine facilities and send him on his way, but neither will they do something in that hour that will kill or cripple V either. It might just be wishful thinking on my part, but they don't really rub me as being as bad to the bone as... say, Xykon.

Demons SPAWN from a plane of evil, they are not brought up, they just spawn from pure evilness and chaos

Daemons spawn in a similar way, however, these are not especially chaotic and are just plain evil

Devils are devils, and thus evil to the effing bone too

These are even eviler than the knights sent from the spooky wizard who lives by the coast!

[David Argall]

I don't see how that is possible. All rules for Faustian Pacts in FCII say that the soul goes to the Hells AFTER death.
FC2 is no more than supplemental text, ignored by a great many DMs, probably including our writer. A limit it imposes is not going to be allowed to get in the way of the story. Moreover FC2 can not be considered exhaustive of the types of deals possible. We would assume that alternatives exist, even if they are rare. So a deal where you get controlled right away breaks no rules.



If the fiends are actually lying to him about it, the contract is null and void, because they would fail to live up to the bargain as concluded.
That depends on the lie, among other things.


Moreover, there are NO rules to my knowledge in D&D to actually "control" the soul in this way while the subject is still alive. You know, free will and all.

Recall the Helm of Alignment Change. Soul control is entirely possible within D&D rules.


Which is why I can't quite understand why the fiends would go to all these lengths instead of simply Dominating V and getting to the Snarl.
There are at least two theories on the point.
The material planes are in some degree neutral territory, where the other planes may not act, except in certain ways, one of which is recruiting mortal agents like V.
The material planes are in some way territory where the other planes can't act, rather like fish trying to act on dry land. Again, they need mortal agents like V.
In either case, trying to dominate V is impossible or too dangerous or difficult, but if they make a deal, they may be able to achieve some goal...

[BRC]

Three tall figures in cloaks and hoods. Not quite enough, especially considering how anybody in a cloak and hood looks similar to other people in cloaks and hoods. You might as well find an earlier comic that featured a skeleton and make a thread called "Origin of Xykon"

[Mr. Pin]

I don't seriously think V is going to be able to hold the merge with the other three souls for more than a few minutes, incidentally--I think the "several weeks" is just a spicer to make the deal look better than it is.

You raise an interesting point. However, I think it likely that even if this is their intention, Vaarsuvius may surprise them with a herculean show of willpower in order to control the arcane triumvirate for weeks or even longer.

In addition, the fiends didn't specify just how the loss of control would affect V; isn't it possible that she'll be torn apart and killed by the release of mystic energy, and then be forced to spend her time in the evil afterlives?

[Iranon]

The thing that really worries me... exactly which amount of control could they exert over V's soul?

Time might be meaningless if they could do something to permanently warp her/him almost instantly.
We don't know enough about the Stickiverse cosmology to know if there will even be anything left recognisable as V once they're through.

Since we also haven't seen fiends as pure evil of the highest order in this setting either (some bits of canon D&D are beyond creepy...), this could really go any way... if V accepts.

[OldFart]

What the fiends get out of this deal is they each get to put their major arcane mortal pawn back into play on the prime material. And hide their agent in the mind/body of a mage with powerful good-aligned friends. Someone who is arguably important enough to the fate of the world (given the OotS dealings with the snarl) that the forces of good are unlikely to take him/her out.

V would probably have a hard time controlling these three at hir best, let alone in trance-deprived state. Of course, non-trance-deprived V would also likely see through this deal, which is why the fiends are appearing now.

V's ability to control won't be an issue though, because each agent will be under orders from their fiend to keep the splice running. To not allow V to dismiss it, in fact, until a certain pre-determined time has expired. That way, the fiends get control of this horrendously powerful gestalt, simply by calling in their marker and controlling V.

One use for which may be the Snarl. Which requires an arcane/divine combo. But did the fiends ever say that their pawns were solely arcane casters? Mystic Theurge, True Necromancer, and Thaumaturgist are excellent choices for those character concepts.

[Undead Prince]

IF he dies. Maybe V will really become a lich!

Becoming a lich is not the only way to be immortal. Off the top of my head: Undeath - Vampire or Necropolitan (both much easier to achieve than Lichdom, though without the useful phylactery perk). Creative use of Magic Jar or Mind Switch can give effective immortality if their numerous subsequent applications are properly treated by the DM. True Mind Switch (9th level Telepath) gives immortality with no loopholes - and not just that, but you can live your years with the body of a Great Wyrm, or a Tarrasque, or whatever other powerful monster you like.

[Corian_Aerdeth]

For the set-up, Eadric is a paladin that has been chosen to be responsible for a great spiritual task by the deity he follows, and Titivilus (as in the Nuncio of Dis) has been divinely appointed as his tempter. This post in particular really gives perspective to the deal the fiends are offering V, I think.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/story-hour/58227-tales-wyre-01-03-09-update-3.html#post1029766

This is what V is facing, and there's 3 of them.

[delguidance]

I think they're clear about their goals, but also the snarl must be involved somehow. I don't think it's in their interests to unleash the snarl. Unless they think they have someway of unleashing it in the upper planes and then controlling it again, but really I think they'd have as much interest in keeping the multiverse safe for them to defile.

[chiasaur11]

Angel's blood water coolers.

A goal all of us can appreciate.

[seedjar]

Angel's blood water coolers.

A goal all of us can appreciate.

Hehe, I liked that one, too.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if they had no ulterior motives and are being completely forward with V; the Giant seems to enjoy breaking archetypes.
~Joe

[Dixieboy]

Hehe, I liked that one, too.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if they had no ulterior motives and are being completely forward with V; the Giant seems to enjoy breaking archetypes.
~Joe
Apart from Roy not being dumb... which ones?

[Nevitan]

I read a theory somewhere {probably the 633 disscusion thread) that
the archfeinds will wait until a battle for one of the gates and take control of V then and use hir to take control of the gates and do with it what they will.

[Dixieboy]

Becoming a lich is not the only way to be immortal. Off the top of my head: Undeath - Vampire or Necropolitan (both much easier to achieve than Lichdom, though without the useful phylactery perk). Creative use of Magic Jar or Mind Switch can give effective immortality if their numerous subsequent applications are properly treated by the DM. True Mind Switch (9th level Telepath) gives immortality with no loopholes - and not just that, but you can live your years with the body of a Great Wyrm, or a Tarrasque, or whatever other powerful monster you like.
However V is a wizard

[kpenguin]

Apart from Roy not being dumb... which ones?

Four words:

WHY ISN'T HE JOLLY

[Boogastreehouse]

Apart from Roy not being dumb... which ones?

Sure, there are some common archetypes in this comic. The arcanist who's only interested in accumulating knowledge and power. The Orc barbarian who communicates in Hulk-speak. Just about every element of the dwarf's character.

But don't forget:

Redcloak, the science-minded cleric. A noble villain, with conflicting values.

Miko the paladin, who acts in accordance with many of the traits commonly associated with the paladin class, and ends up falling from grace. Lien, Hinjo and O-Chul, on the other hand, are all paladins who possess distinct personalities that manage to (mostly) avoid the Lawful-Stupid stereotype.

The late lord of Azure City and leader of said Paladins, Shojo, a chaotic aristocrat. The leader of a highly-ordered society, who feigned madness and senility in order to manipulate those of his subjects who were too corrupt, or too zealous (and to great effect, I might add).

The lunatic Halfling, mentioned above.

These are all characters who have become memorable for either distancing themselves from the qualities a reader might initially expect of them, or by embracing the stereotype in an interesting, well-developed way.

[Undead Prince]

However V is a wizard

Doesn't preclude him from taking Psionic levels. As an elf (favored class wizard), he wouldn't even have an XP penalty for multiclassing.

Also, Mind Switch works in reverse as well. Dominate a Telepath and make him Switch Minds with you, then kill your old body (where the Telepath's mind is now residing). There, you just got yourself a new, younger body.

[Undead Prince]

the archfeinds will wait until a battle for one of the gates and take control of V then and use hir to take control of the gates and do with it what they will.


Yeah. And they could take control of V NOW, effortlessly and forever, by using one of the many abilities they, as Archfiends, have at their disposal. So why bother with the Faustian Pact and the soul splice.

If they want their evil spellcasters on the Prime Material, they can just Resurrect them.

Unless they actually want to use the soul splice to make a kind of a Frankenstein Committee, with representatives from each of the Evil Alignments and a sorta-neutral Referee/Wildcard that is V...

[ref]

Did someone call? :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:

[Undead Prince]

FC2 is no more than supplemental text, ignored by a great many DMs, probably including our writer.

So far the deal seems to proceed from the assumption made by V that the soul goes to Hell AFTER death. Since it's the same in FCII, I don't see reasons to dismiss this rulebook. We might do that once we get evidence of a homebrew rule concerning soul damnation, but so far we have none.

And ignoring rulebooks is at the DM's peril. What would you do when a character actually wants to make a deal with a devil? Write up your own Tome of Homebrew just for that purpose? FCII is a well-written and thorough book officially approved by WOTC; what makes you think your DM can do much better?


We would assume that alternatives exist, even if they are rare. So a deal where you get controlled right away breaks no rules.

It would break the conditions of the contract as is is stipulated as of now (with V in control of the 3 souls and damnation only after death). If the fiends want to ignore all this and just grab control of V, they could do so much easier with more mundane means at their disposal.



Recall the Helm of Alignment Change. Soul control is entirely possible within D&D rules.

OK, that's an interesting example. There's also a spell that can temporarily change alignment as far as I know (I'll look into it). The Helm is a Curse (not much known about its nature), but the spell is probably Enchantment [Mind-Affecting], i.e. targets the Mind and not the Soul of the creature. In any case, alignment change is not "taking over" or "controlling" the soul by any means - the creature fully retains its free will, and only gains a different outlook on life. So your example is moot.



There are at least two theories on the point.
The material planes are in some degree neutral territory, where the other planes may not act, except in certain ways, one of which is recruiting mortal agents like V.
The material planes are in some way territory where the other planes can't act, rather like fish trying to act on dry land. Again, they need mortal agents like V.
In either case, trying to dominate V is impossible or too dangerous or difficult, but if they make a deal, they may be able to achieve some goal...[/

All well and good, except it ignores 1) DnD lore and rules, 2) actual events of the comic. We have Sabine, Quarr and the Huge Devil Guy (pit fiend?) wreaking havoc in the Prime Material with no limits or consequences. Quarr even used Domination on the orc chief, to further illustrate my point.

[thubby]

to get his soul forever through some clever ploy (who's hours are we working on now, "earth's" or some random plane with no time? *see heaven for example*)

to corrupt V. putting more evil in the world

to make V an addict, getting him to enter another, more sinister contract.

[Tectorman]

I'm getting the impression that since V getting the three arcane souls grafted onto hir means shi has access to their spells (for the duration of the bond, let's just say one hour for right now), the phrasing of "we each get your soul for [one hour] each" means they get to use hir spells (i.e., I don't think it just means shi has to spend some time in purgatory).

That said, one loophole I hope V remembers to avoid is how long they have to control hir body and at what level.

For instance (and I don't have the actual figures if they even exist), let's say V is 14th-level right now. The conjurer, necromancer, and sorcerer are levels 15, 17, and 16. That is what the three fiends are coming into the deal with. Even if V were to spend enough time with those souls grafted to level up, shi would level up and the three arcane souls would remain 15, 17, and 16. Ergo, when V lets go of the graft and they get a turn to use hir body, they should only be able to use hir 14th-level abilities (even if shi leveled up at some point later on) for however long V held the graft.

Otherwise, they can just wait until V hits level 30 and take over hir then (in exchange for the relatively insignificant offering of a level 15, 17, and 16).

Seems like an easily exploitable loophole that I'd fully expect the fiends to try that I also fully expect V to see coming (especially if shi takes advantage of the time stop on the island and comes to the logical conclusion of "now is the time to try and trance").

[Calemyr]

Prince, I don't think you exactly follow what I'm saying. A recurring theme of this song and dance is that this is NOT a typical Faustian arrangement. There is no "I get your soul for eternity", there is only "We do a favor for you and you do a favor for us". No damnation, not even in the fine print (though quite probable as an effect of the offered services). This is a "once in a lifetime" situation where "the lifetime in question is that of the multiverse" and "don't bother looking up" the specifics in any rule books. They don't WANT a dead V in their possession, they want a live V in their debt.

Besides, only devils are big on Faustian deals, demons only help those stronger than they are and even then only until they get a sufficient advantage. Any Faustian deal would only be with Lee, and any lies Nero and Cedrick might tell would be immaterial to it, of no more importance than the mortal failing to read all the subclauses of the contract before signing.

As for the existing fiends in the story, have you noticed anything particular about them? Sabine is paired with Nale, Qarr was paired with Kubota and now is trying to pair with V, and the big demon's appearance was readily described as technically illegal and even then only came as a summoned foe. Like the gods, the fiends seem to have limited ability to influence the world without mortal cooperation. Mortals have already been painted as the major player in the battle against the Snarl, as only they have a chance against the god killing embodiment of frustration and disorder.

Does that make more sense, now? They aren't buying V, they're renting V. This is a whole new fiendish offer based on a whole new school of fiendish thought proposed by a whole new organization of fiends who want to revolutionize the whole "damned" industry.

[Chaman]

check it out

linky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)

just thought that's neat. this means they want something done with the gates and not only V's power or their "experiment"

[Silverraptor]

Probably the reason V was pre-approved in the first place.

[Zerg Cookie]

We knew that for some time now :smalltongue:

[Silverraptor]

I wonder if any of you will care what I have to say?

No, probably not.

However, did you perhaps notice that the comic cut of down half of the page? It did it earlier during when the ABD said she was going to kill V's children. They are obviously going to talk about this deal to get rid of most of the fine prints we see.

Now, I'm sure there will be 1 fine print we never saw coming. But I think the politics involved from the lower planes will keep this a fair deal. Atleast among the archfiends.

[monsterinshadow]

Guys, the same thing happened in Hell Blazer with Constantine giving over an hour of his life to a demon in return for an hour of raw demonic power. The demon then used bits and pieces of that hour over the course of several years to father 3 or 4 demonic children with Constantine, creating a major plot device which ended in the overthrow of hell by the original demon's father. anywho, thats what i think is gonna happen. Also, Simpsons did it.

[Kaytara]

I definitely think the deal implies that they would be directly controlling Vaarsuvius, not just getting his soul after he died.
They stress the 'fair deal' part of it.
On V's part, there are four souls in one body, but only V's soul is in direct control.
The logical counterpart, then, is that when the fiends collect on it, it would be two souls (V and the fiend) sharing V's body, but the fiend would be in control.

Anyway, part of the fine print is that they're measuring the service in units of time. As already mentioned here, a powerful Archfiend with access to an advanced Time Stop spell can get many things done, up to the point where the restriction of "one hour" or "one minute" becomes completely irrelevant.
If they truly wanted a fair deal, they would have phrased it as something like "one standard action for each standard action you make during this time".

[Zeful]

I don't think accepting the fiends' deal can be the cause of the four words.

All the wrong reasons? Somehow "saving my spouse and children" doesn't seem like a wrong reason to me.

But refusing to give up the power after he's saved them, does strike me as a wrong reason.

[Silverraptor]

On V's part, there are four souls in one body, but only V's soul is in direct control.


Sort of a limited partnership in buisness right? 1 guy in charge with the others investing their power. The only difference here is that these guys are forced to invest into v's power.

Also, I just thought of something. How do we know for sure that these 3 archfiends know that the Order knows about the gate? We never saw them talk about it or at them. For all we could know, Sabine could have just told them that there were these all powerful gates holding back the snarl. Most of us just guessed that she included the Order of the stick into her find, but we have no actual "Proff".

[babaganoush]

Aren't they the exactly same fiends that appeared in comic 380 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)? I don't know if this has been brought up before, so sorry if I caused any inconveniences.

[Lira]

It hasn't exactly been confirmed in-comic that they're the same fiends, but I'm absolutely certain they are. It doesn't really make any sense otherwise. And yes, several people have pointed this out already.

[David Argall]

So far the deal seems to proceed from the assumption made by V that the soul goes to Hell AFTER death. Since it's the same in FCII, I don't see reasons to dismiss this rulebook.
Properly speaking we are not dismissing this rulebook. We are saying it is not the last and only word on the subject. In particular, your position is that there is no mention of this option. Therefore that option does not exist. But this is not the same as the rules forbidding this. The DM is much more able to add to the game when there are gaps in the rules.



What would you do when a character actually wants to make a deal with a devil?
I would likely tell him no devil is interested. Frankly the idea should be limited to NPCs.



FCII is a well-written and thorough book officially approved by WOTC; what makes you think your DM can do much better?
Definitely a reason for the DM to be careful, but official stuff has been shown to be trash any number of times. The DM does not fulfill his duties by mindlessly using official stuff.



It would break the conditions of the contract as is is stipulated as of now (with V in control of the 3 souls and damnation only after death).
Nothing in what the fiends have said means control can only happen after V dies.



alignment change is not "taking over" or "controlling" the soul by any means - the creature fully retains its free will, and only gains a different outlook on life. So your example is moot.
The difference between soul control and "gaining a different outlook" seems more semantics than anything else.



All well and good, except it ignores 1) DnD lore and rules, 2) actual events of the comic. We have Sabine, Quarr and the Huge Devil Guy (pit fiend?) wreaking havoc in the Prime Material with no limits or consequences. Quarr even used Domination on the orc chief, to further illustrate my point.
Neither theory deems the outer planes creature as totally helpless without an agent.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Several threads about the fiend's offer have been combined. Please try to adhere to the one thread per topic rule to avoid unseemly thread mergings.

[Broler]

what they're saying is extremely ominous... :smalleek:

[shadowdemon_lord]

All well and good, except it ignores 1) DnD lore and rules, 2) actual events of the comic. We have Sabine, Quarr and the Huge Devil Guy (pit fiend?) wreaking havoc in the Prime Material with no limits or consequences. Quarr even used Domination on the orc chief, to further illustrate my point.

That is a very interesting point, also I'd like to point out that the pit fiend (a creature that could have easily influenced the world directly through it's great power and intellect) was destroyed very quickly. From a rules stand point I do find it interesting that we seem to have unbound infernals freely roaming the planes. I guess it makes sense in the case of Quarr, his master died and he was not dismissed so he is now free. But how Sabine managed to start navigating the prime material plane freely is a mystery to me.

For all those who don't know outsiders must be summoned or gated into the prime material plane in order to have be physically present on it. The two types of summoning are different in key ways. Summoning an outsider means it usually has a set duration on it's presence in the prime material, it acts under the direct control of the caster, and if killed it simply returns to it's home plane uninjured. A gated creature on the other hand is on the prime material indefinitely, however is usually forced to commit to a contract of service in exchange for it's freedom. Ways exist for the outsider to be freed (such as the death of it's master usually), and it is free to roam the prime material. However, this comes with the caveat that it's soul and body are both physically present, and at least since 3rd edition a gated outsider really dies if it dies.

So in conclusion, the rules behind summoning and gating are what keeps archfiends from manifesting on the prime material in D&D. Basically they have to find a way to open a portal to the prime material from the outer planes, or they have to give someone a reason to want bring them in. Given that very powerful outsiders can sometimes break summoning circles (circles used to contain powerful gated in outsiders while the terms of contract are negotiated) through sheer force of will and are very hard to get using the summoning method people usually steer clear of the extremely powerful outisders when binding them to their service.

[imp_fireball]

It's a bad idea, but V doesn't have a lot of options.

Or he can let his children die and get over it like a man!

Suck it up V, you fall back down, you bounce right on back up! Right on back baby, right on back!

------------
Also, there's no evidence to the big devil being a pitfiend, whatsoever. Namely, it being colossal, not casting any spells, etc.

[whitelaughter]

Possibly, the only reason the fiends want V's soul for an hour/equiv each is that they intend to maintain the soul splice for that time; so that each fiend gets a superpowered wizard.
After all, even if they only get an hour, having V boosted by 3 other powerful spellcasters would be more than sufficient to, say, obliterate the refugee fleet, or overthrow a nation.

[Amon Star]

Didn't the dragon say she was going to do something with the kids' souls?

Yes she did. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html)
I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere but the fine print to the contract could lie in the fact that time moves differently on different planes.

To paraphrase :roy:'s mother and grandfather, "This isn't Sci-Fi." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0499.html)
Four words:

WHY ISN'T HE JOLLY

Wouldn't it be great if those are :vaarsuvius:'s four words? :biggrin:
But refusing to give up the power after he's saved them, does strike me as a wrong reason.

Hmm. Perhaps then the four words will be "I will keep it" or similar when offered to make it permanent by the Fiends, for certain other considerations, of course.
Sort of a limited partnership in buisness right? 1 guy in charge with the others investing their power. The only difference here is that these guys are forced to invest into v's power.

Also, I just thought of something. How do we know for sure that these 3 archfiends know that the Order knows about the gate? We never saw them talk about it or at them. For all we could know, Sabine could have just told them that there were these all powerful gates holding back the snarl. Most of us just guessed that she included the Order of the stick into her find, but we have no actual "Proff".

Good point. We are assuming that :sabine: told them everything, but that may not be the case. She is evil, after all.

[Undead Prince]

From a rules stand point I do find it interesting that we seem to have unbound infernals freely roaming the planes.

1. Nothing precludes fiends from plane shifting with aid of other creatures, their own superiors who have spellcasting, magic items etc.

2. DnD has at least one lower demon capable of plane shifting as a supernatural ability (bebilith).


But how Sabine managed to start navigating the prime material plane freely is a mystery to me.

I believe it's clear she's an agent of the IFCC, who could have easily plane shifted or gated her to the Prime Material. She also seems to be able to cast Plane shift on her own, but only for "emergency use". Probably this ability was "grafted" onto her by the IFCC with their mighty epic/homebrew powers.

[kusje]

obliterate the refugee fleet, or overthrow a nation.

Think bigger. These are souls who could single handedly destroy the fleet.

[Dixieboy]

Sure, there are some common archetypes in this comic. The arcanist who's only interested in accumulating knowledge and power. The Orc barbarian who communicates in Hulk-speak. Just about every element of the dwarf's character.

But don't forget:
[QUOTE]
A noble villain, with conflicting values.Not all that special, but science minded indeed is though


Miko the paladin, who acts in accordance with many of the traits commonly associated with the paladin class, and ends up falling from grace.She is the archetype of "Lawful stupid", and is punished for that, he is breaking no archetypes at all
Lien, Hinjo and O-Chul, on the other hand, are all paladins who possess distinct personalities that manage to (mostly) avoid the Lawful-Stupid stereotypDepending on who you're playing with that's not unusual at all, not to mention the fact that most videogames set in D&Dverses has an atleast semi-interesting paladin (Atleast those made by bioware, or in which bioware has had a hand in creating)

The late lord of Azure City and leader of said Paladins, Shojo,
a chaotic aristocrat.That is an Archetype all to itself
The leader of a highly-ordered society, who feigned madness and senility in order to manipulate those of his subjects who were too corrupt, or too zealousUnusual and original i agree


The lunatic Halfling, mentioned above.A CE guy who loves killing? :smallannoyed:

[Mr. Pin]

Anyway, part of the fine print is that they're measuring the service in units of time. As already mentioned here, a powerful Archfiend with access to an advanced Time Stop spell can get many things done, up to the point where the restriction of "one hour" or "one minute" becomes completely irrelevant.
If they truly wanted a fair deal, they would have phrased it as something like "one standard action for each standard action you make during this time".

Look, can we please stop reiterating the possibilities of a time stop as if it's a brand new idea? I must have read about six posts yammering about it. If they had gone into every possible exploitation of the contract, the comic would have been mind-numbingly wordy and boring.

[David Argall]

The fact they are Sabine's bosses gives us additional reason to assume they are lying to V and are going to try something.

[Spiky]

the comic would have been mind-numbingly wordy and boring.

And to successfully tempt V, that's what they should have done. Play to a person's weaknesses. These fiends are rookies.

[krossbow]

And to successfully tempt V, that's what they should have done. Play to a person's weaknesses. These fiends are rookies.



What do you expect from a bunch of peace loving hippies? End the blood war? Bet they're a bunch of long haired pinko commies too *grumble* grumble*

[Optimystik]

And to successfully tempt V, that's what they should have done. Play to a person's weaknesses. These fiends are rookies.

How about we wait and see what V's sojourn in the Nether will be like before we make that kind of judgment, hmm?

[littlequietguy]

The Linear guild need's to reappear sometime. Why not now?

[Starwaster]

I'm getting the impression that since V getting the three arcane souls grafted onto hir means shi has access to their spells (for the duration of the bond, let's just say one hour for right now), the phrasing of "we each get your soul for [one hour] each" means they get to use hir spells (i.e., I don't think it just means shi has to spend some time in purgatory).


I'm not quite convinced his soul will really be going very far. Quite possibly she won't even leave this plane. Either they're going to make use of it right where it is, OR something else will be occupying the body right where it is at the time they decide to 'take custody'.

As said elsewhere, that will be at a critical time during the defense of the gate and the three will use that time to gain access to the gates and....

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Oh come on. DO demons EVER make a fair trade? We all know where this is going.

[Tyrmatt]

The catch is in the wording. They get to use V's soul. At any time they should choose.
Like say when he's within a 1000ft radius of Girard's Gate?

[kusje]

The catch is in the wording. They get to use V's soul. At any time they should choose.
Like say when he's within a 1000ft radius of Girard's Gate?

How can something so bloody obvious be considered a catch?!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

How can something so bloody obvious be considered a catch?!

Because it's implied that the torments of V's soul won't happen until AFTER hir natural or otherwise death...

That's the usual deal. That the Triad has included an "anytime we want" clause makes things that much more dangerous for V, and the rest of the OotS once they reform into a group.

Or that's how some people are reading it. I need to go back and reread the terms, since I was thinking they didn't get V's soul until after hir death.

[Keris]

At any time they should choose.

While the Fiends have not yet specified when they gain possession of V's souls, it is heavily implied in the dialogue that they gain it after V's death.

When V says "You would have eternal dominion over my soul once I died?", the fiend's reactions can be taken either to the the "eternal dominion" or "once I died". As their explanatory statements in the next panel deal with the length of damnation, one would usually assume that that was the only aspect V guessed incorrectly, so the fiends will gain temporary dominion over V's soul after V dies.

This may still be an attempt by the fiends to distract V from asking exactly when they gain control over his soul, but we have seen no direct evidence of this. Let's just hope that V reads the fine print.

[Rotipher]

I agree that V's personality will probably be displaced from vir body by each of the other three souls, in turn, when the Fiends claim their payment. That's not just because it's the most plausible way for them to manipulate the Snarl -- which, incidentally, any one of the spliced souls could set free as easily as Xykon could, given a suitable divine caster's help -- but also because the Giant took the time to reveal the three souls' names, implying that they will be full-fledged characters, not just an excuse to pump up V's power.

[magic9mushroom]

I don't get what all these people are talking about with mind control. They GET her soul. They didn't say anything about getting to order her around.

[Volkov]

V would go mad from all those voices in h** head, I seriously doubt h** could remain sane from six different voices in h** head. Then V ends up doing something very very evil, maybe going back to the boat and destroying the entire fleet.

[raphfrk]

I don't get what all these people are talking about with mind control. They GET her soul. They didn't say anything about getting to order her around.

Well, V gets to control the souls that s/he is linked to, so in the interest of 'fairness', V would be under control when in the demon's possession.

Is there a reverse timestop effect? For example, could the excercise the option and then freeze time for V. They could then unfreeze - have V cast a spell - refreeze. This would get them control over V for longer than agreed.

[factotum]

And you don't think that having direct control over someone's soul would also bring with it control of their body, assuming the two are still linked?

[Kaytara]

Guys, the fiends simply couldn't have been talking about possessing V's soul AFTER V's death.

Here's why: They know about the Gates and almost certainly know that it's the Order's goal to stop them. In short, they know that Vaarsuvius will spend the next few months facing a soul-destroying monstrosity. There is no reason for them to assume that there will still BE a soul to possess after Vaarsuvius dies.

Also, the talk about a fair trade. They let V control the souls and then V will get controlled in turn. It makes sense like this.

[The Minx]

While the Fiends have not yet specified when they gain possession of V's souls, it is heavily implied in the dialogue that they gain it after V's death.

When V says "You would have eternal dominion over my soul once I died?", the fiend's reactions can be taken either to the the "eternal dominion" or "once I died". As their explanatory statements in the next panel deal with the length of damnation, one would usually assume that that was the only aspect V guessed incorrectly, so the fiends will gain temporary dominion over V's soul after V dies.

This may still be an attempt by the fiends to distract V from asking exactly when they gain control over his soul, but we have seen no direct evidence of this. Let's just hope that V reads the fine print.

They are clarifying some aspects of how V is mistaken. They needn't have explained all misunderstandings, being fiends. All we know is that they won't be getting V for eternity, they never said anything - for or against - about the accuracy of V's assumption regarding whether it would be before or after he dies.

Sounds like playing with words, but that's how fiends operate, isn't it? :smallsmile:

[Keris]

they never said anything - for or against - about the accuracy of V's assumption regarding whether it would be before or after he dies.
And hence one would assume that V's assumption was correct.


Sounds like playing with words, but that's how fiends operate, isn't it? :smallsmile:

Well, if they're being the stereotypical fiends, then how can we tell if anything they say is true? They might get V's soul for eternity anyway, or the soul's they splice with V could gain control. We have to assume that they're telling the truth here, otherwise we have nothing to base our speculations off.


They know about the Gates and almost certainly know that it's the Order's goal to stop them. In short, they know that Vaarsuvius will spend the next few months facing a soul-destroying monstrosity. There is no reason for them to assume that there will still BE a soul to possess after Vaarsuvius dies.
While it is likely they are the fiends from OotS 380, we have no concrete proof. For all we know, long hooded cloaks are the height of Lower Planes fashion right now. And if they do know about the Snarl, then we don't know their agenda concerning it. They may very well want Vaarsuvious to succeed, and that the Soul Splice will give him the means to do so.


Also, the talk about a fair trade. They let V control the souls and then V will get controlled in turn. It makes sense like this.

If the trade is "fair", then V gains control of the knowledge and ability of a set of souls for a set duration, then the owners of these souls would gain control of V's knowledge and ability for the same duration. The Fiends would still have to supply a new body for V to use, they don't gain control of that.

[The Minx]

And hence one would assume that V's assumption was correct.

Not unless you were assuming that they were trying to be wholly forthcoming.


Well, if they're being the stereotypical fiends, then how can we tell if anything they say is true? They might get V's soul for eternity anyway, or the soul's they splice with V could gain control. We have to assume that they're telling the truth here, otherwise we have nothing to base our speculations off.

Not how deals like this work, classically. The point is giving the protege exactly what he asked for, that being exactly what he didn't want. The protege has to damn himself, that's the whole point.


While it is likely they are the fiends from OotS 380, we have no concrete proof. For all we know, long hooded cloaks are the height of Lower Planes fashion right now. And if they do know about the Snarl, then we don't know their agenda concerning it. They may very well want Vaarsuvious to succeed, and that the Soul Splice will give him the means to do so.

Being trusting of fiends is never a good idea. :smallsmile: It's not something that can be known for certain, but it's about as sound an operating principle as they come.


If the trade is "fair", then V gains control of the knowledge and ability of a set of souls for a set duration, then the owners of these souls would gain control of V's knowledge and ability for the same duration. The Fiends would still have to supply a new body for V to use, they don't gain control of that.

See previous points.

[Greep]

So yeah. Not that anyone would really believe these fiends are just helping V out to help their little clique... but has anyone noticed these fiends are the same ones sabine reports to in comic 380? Same robes, eye color, speach color and everything.

Now it could be that it's just a wild coincidence, but The Giant rarely throws in such stuff as that scene in 380 without a point, and we haven't seen that point for over 250 comics yet.

This also explains why V's pre-approved. Sabine told them something specific most likely.

Edit: It could be sabine told them V has a mate, (which she finds out at the bar scene) and the whole thing was engineered by the demons. Hard to say, though.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Edit: It could be sabine told them V has a mate, (which she finds out at the bar scene) and the whole thing was engineered by the demons. Hard to say, though.

Everything else has already been noticed. But this? Far-fetched, implausible, and overly complicated. That's-a some good speculatin', Greep!

[Greep]

Everything else has already been noticed. But this? Far-fetched, implausible, and overly complicated. That's-a some good speculatin', Greep!

indeed!

Bum, the other stuff has been noticed? I need to lay off those DD slays and look at this forum more :(

[Tempest Fennac]

I never considerred that due to the dragon being likely to have tried to find V anyway. That is still an interresting theory due to how it would fit the Evil Outsider's tendancy to plan ahead. We don't know if Sabine saw them again since the bar scene, though (having said that, she had a lot of time to visit them again since then).

[Greep]

yeah but consider this: who sent the order ot the dragon cave where they would obviously kill the dragon's son?

That's right, the linear guild!

[Kaytara]

Perhaps, but "I have a mate" isn't actually enough information to go on with, is it? You need to at least know the name of the person in order to try scrying on them and whatnot.

It IS an interesting question, though... Given how tight-lipped Vaarsuvius has been about his personal life, how the hell did the dragon find out about his family in the first place, much less their exact location?

[Greep]

Perhaps, but "I have a mate" isn't actually enough information to go on with, is it? You need to at least know the name of the person in order to try scrying on them and whatnot.

It IS an interesting question, though... Given how tight-lipped Vaarsuvius has been about his personal life, how the hell did the dragon find out about his family in the first place, much less their exact location?

Well the general concensus is the dragon got the information from the oracle because he said someone was "flying in"...

OMg.. Sabine flies too.

[Zeful]

Perhaps, but "I have a mate" isn't actually enough information to go on with, is it? You need to at least know the name of the person in order to try scrying on them and whatnot.You'd think so, but no. You don't need to know anything to scry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) for a person. Knowing the name simply makes it easier (granting a +5 bonus to their saving throw rather than a +10).


It IS an interesting question, though... Given how tight-lipped Vaarsuvius has been about his personal life, how the hell did the dragon find out about his family in the first place, much less their exact location?
I'm guessing the Oracle of Tiamat. I'm figure he doesn't charge fellow scaled ones for any questions. Alternatively Scrying for "The family of the one called Vaarsuvius" which gives the kids and mate a +10 will save bonus (which means a +10-13 Will save bonus in total). Which, against the DC 14 (16 if Spell Focus: Divination is taken) save means a failure rate of 95-70%. So the Oracle likely told her.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is an excellent point, Greep. Admittedly, that was probably more to do with Sabine just trying to kill the Order due to her knowledge apparently being limited to the fact that there was something dangerous in the forest, unless she was lying during the fight with Roy, but she really had no reason to want to make Roy's weapon stronger.

[theMycon]

I don't get what all these people are talking about with mind control. They GET her soul. They didn't say anything about getting to order her around.

Common misunderstanding- I didn't get it myself 'til I was 17 or 18.
It's not that we "have" a soul. We're souls that temporarily have bodies.

[Lord_Drayakir]

I really don't see the fiends screwing V over at a point where he'll be near a Gate. It's obvious that the Snarl can destroy Gods, and can undo their creations, and it's a safe bet that even the fiends are threatened.

Therefore, they probably wouldn't make V turn against his allies, or make his concentration waver during a critical point of destroying the wards of a gate.

[Kaytara]

I really don't see the fiends screwing V over at a point where he'll be near a Gate. It's obvious that the Snarl can destroy Gods, and can undo their creations, and it's a safe bet that even the fiends are threatened.

Therefore, they probably wouldn't make V turn against his allies, or make his concentration waver during a critical point of destroying the wards of a gate.

If the fiends' goals were noble, with no potential harm to anyone, then they wouldn't rely on desperate trance-deprived Obsessed Neutral mortals to use as pawns.
They're evil. They may screw you over just for the fun of it.

And destroying the Gate is not the point. As you said, the complete destruction of the multiverse would be bad for them. That doesn't make them harmless or trustworthy. Yes, they probably want to preserve the world, but also exploit every advantage this momentary crisis could give them.
More to the point, they likely believe that they can control the Gates. Sabine certainly seemed to believe that.



While it is likely they are the fiends from OotS 380, we have no concrete proof. For all we know, long hooded cloaks are the height of Lower Planes fashion right now. And if they do know about the Snarl, then we don't know their agenda concerning it. They may very well want Vaarsuvious to succeed, and that the Soul Splice will give him the means to do so.
They don't just have the same cloaks, the also have the same eye colour and generally look completely identical in every way. The Law of Conservation of Detail indicates that it was the same group.
And wanting Vaarsuvius to succeed doesn't guarantee any amount of safety for the world, the forces of Good, or V's comrades. As I said above, they can automatically be assumed to be planning to do something sinister with the Gates.


If the trade is "fair", then V gains control of the knowledge and ability of a set of souls for a set duration, then the owners of these souls would gain control of V's knowledge and ability for the same duration. The Fiends would still have to supply a new body for V to use, they don't gain control of that.
What makes you think that? :smallconfused: They don't specify anything like that. If four souls can inhabit a single body, why would the fiends need to locate a new body for Vaarsuvius in order to gain control of his soul? Bwuh?

[magic9mushroom]

Common misunderstanding- I didn't get it myself 'til I was 17 or 18.
It's not that we "have" a soul. We're souls that temporarily have bodies.

You can't see my face, but I'm glaring at you violently.

Get a clue. You completely missed the point.

[Seffbasilisk]

Maybe it's an assurance that V will become an even more powerful epic mage...and will be one of those used for a soul-splice in the future.

[Silverraptor]

I just have a question. If this is their first offer of the "soul splice" and this thread is discussing it, why is the title, "Used Car" sale?

Because a "used car sale" is the sale of a car that had been previouly owned by some one to another at reduced price. The only connection I can make with this thread and the comic is that these souls belong to the fiends and they are being bought or leased out to V.

[David Argall]

yeah but consider this: who sent the order ot the dragon cave where they would obviously kill the dragon's son?

That's right, the linear guild!
The idea of sending the Order after the Starmetal was purely that of Nale, who had no idea the dragon existed, and serious doubt that the starmetal did. He merely felt it would keep the Order out of the way, and possibly dead. So no, the party was not set up that far back [except by the writer possibly].


the general concensus is the dragon got the information from the oracle because he said someone was "flying in"...

OMg.. Sabine flies too.
The flashback in 628 pretty much nails down that Mama dragon was the important client who was flying in.

[theMycon]

You can't see my face, but I'm glaring at you violently.

Get a clue. You completely missed the point.

*re-reads above post*
Oh, looks like I did. I hold that my interpretation* was reasonable, given the context. However, still apologize for making a misassumption. I did not mean to condescend.

However, my initial reaction to the tone of your response:
"Today, we've replaced Magic9Mushroom's coffee with pure, uncut Columbian cocaine. Let's see if (s)he notices."


*"they GET her soul" == "they command her soul", as V commands the souls during the splice.

[Alteran]

I just have a question. If this is their first offer of the "soul splice" and this thread is discussing it, why is the title, "Used Car" sale?

It's not uncommon for somebody selling a used car to hide an undesirable feature of it, so that they can make a better sale. People are speculating that the fiends are also hiding something about the soul splice deal.

[David Argall]

And hence one would assume that V's assumption was correct.
So one would assume lacking additional facts.
However the fact they are fiends is a very big additional fact, which is supplemented by our knowing they have heard about the gates, and should know about V's involvement with them.
It is a very common storyline that a deal with the devil involves the mortal making [and being encouraged to make] an assumption about the deal which is entirely wrong. So it is an automatic guess here that some detail of the deal will be a lot more favorable to the fiends than we first think. The idea that the fiends get control of V at some point while she is still alive fits nicely with the idea the devils think they can control the gate, and use it to evil purposes.
This is still all speculation, but it fits the known facts.


We have to assume that they're telling the truth here, otherwise we have nothing to base our speculations off.
We believe they are normally telling the technical truth. We are nearly as sure there are lies hidden in these truths.


While it is likely they are the fiends from OotS 380, we have no concrete proof.

True, but we are dealing with a comic and may well never get concrete proof on most of the events we consider. We need to work with reasonable guess much of the time.
And our writer is pretty big on foreshadowing, which adds to the presumption.

[Raging Gene Ray]

When I saw the title, I thought the OP meant that their powers were less than the fiends were making them out to be:

Ganonron: Spent the XP cost for Gate so many times that, although once Epic level, is now actually around level 4.

Jepthton: Yes, he's a master of flexibility...he can be useless in hundreds of different ways. It was hard finding a useless 9th level spell, but Jephton pulled it off.

Haera: Leaks coolant and transmission fluid.

[[TS] Shadow]

The problem that I have with this speculation (ie, Sabine telling her bosses about V) is that she has no reason to talk about V, or any of the specific members of the Order at all. It's implied that she just tells them about the gates. That's it.

[Silverraptor]

It's not uncommon for somebody selling a used car to hide an undesirable feature of it, so that they can make a better sale. People are speculating that the fiends are also hiding something about the soul splice deal.

Ah that would explain it.
Thank you Holiday Companion Cube.

[Eldrys]

I think that the trio is some kind of uber seer and knows exactly how long V will keep the splice, they then time it so that they will colectivley control V's life for as long as V lives

[kusje]

I think that the trio is some kind of uber seer and knows exactly how long V will keep the splice, they then time it so that they will colectivley control V's life for as long as V lives

Which isn't a catch because V chooses how long to hold on for.

[Kaytara]

Which isn't a catch because V chooses how long to hold on for.

Not exactly. The catch is that it doesn't matter how long V chooses to hold on for, because even a single round will give the fiends three rounds' worth of control over him. Add Advanced Timestops, and the fiends clearly have enough time to accomplish whatever they want, while Vaarsuvius may not be able to hold on long enough to accomplish what he wants.
Of course, with the souls of Epic casters, V will have access to Timestop himself, but we don't yet know what this "holding onto it" consists of. It's possible he'll need to roll a Will save not every second, but simply every time he accesses the powers of the spliced souls, in which case a Time Stop wouldn't help him.

[Optimystik]

yeah but consider this: who sent the order ot the dragon cave where they would obviously kill the dragon's son?

That's right, the linear guild!

Actually, they probably didn't know about the dragon either. Nale didn't even think there was anything out there to be found (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), much less that anything would be guarding it.

[kusje]

Not exactly. The catch is that it doesn't matter how long V chooses to hold on for, because even a single round will give the fiends three rounds' worth of control over him. Add Advanced Timestops, and the fiends clearly have enough time to accomplish whatever they want, while Vaarsuvius may not be able to hold on long enough to accomplish what he wants.
Of course, with the souls of Epic casters, V will have access to Timestop himself, but we don't yet know what this "holding onto it" consists of. It's possible he'll need to roll a Will save not every second, but simply every time he accesses the powers of the spliced souls, in which case a Time Stop wouldn't help him.

The guy above me said did not mention anything about time stop. In any case, I think the use of time stop is very unlikely.

[TheOtherMC]

Ok forgive me, I havnt been on the forums in a few days to check if its been brought up but i just had a brainstorm on the commode. The three fiends are offering V these three seemingly random but powerful souls to graft upon him/her in exchange of control of his/her soul. My hangover-induced insight is simple: theese are the fiends own souls they're offering. The details arnt really fleshed out yet im not even sure how a mortal could become a fiend of the lower planes but think about it. The souls they're offering all match in personality to the one offering it, as well as the souls' magical aura to their speech bubbles. More frightening is what the offer means if im even halfway right. They wont get control of V's soul, they'll get THE WHOLE GESTALT (each taking turns using four of the most powerful arcane spellcasters who may have ever walked the planet.) :smalleek:

[Tempest Fennac]

I honestly thought the auras were caused solely by the spellcaster's images being conjured up. I like your theory, but we need a lot more information on who those people were and how long ago they died (getting to the power level the Fiends seem to be at would take an age assuming standard evil afterlifes. The fact that people keep their levels and skills in the LG afterlife suggests the evil afterlives could operate in the same fashion, though).

[Chaman]

Shadow;5830843']The problem that I have with this speculation (ie, Sabine telling her bosses about V) is that she has no reason to talk about V, or any of the specific members of the Order at all. It's implied that she just tells them about the gates. That's it.

Thats ridiculous, the order is part of the information, how would you report about the gates and not mention the order or Xykon? that would be like "there are this gates so... yeah"
you pretty much have to add "and there are this two groups interested in them and that have a strong chance in coming to interact with the gates pretty soon" at least

basically, what kind of report would be talking just about the gates and not the big plot revolving around them?

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: More Fiend discussion merged in here. Please stop making multiple topics about the same thing.

[David Argall]

Shadow;5830843']The problem that I have with this speculation (ie, Sabine telling her bosses about V) is that she has no reason to talk about V, or any of the specific members of the Order at all. It's implied that she just tells them about the gates. That's it.
Sabine rushes off the very moment she hears about the gates, using the first feeble excuse she can think of. She deems the gates Important News, which makes every detail about them important. So she will be reporting in full.

Now it is possible her superiors brushed her off. Superiors do that at times. A story from the Revolutionary war is that a British general refused to hear a report from a sentry about a surprise American attack because he was busy with a poker game. However, Sabine returns in a rather good mood, not as if she had tried to report and had been denied or told she was wasting their time. So all is consistent with her reporting in full.

And in a story [except maybe in the Wheel of Time], the fact you don't read something does not mean it did not happen. There is simply not the space to cover everything, and so a lot of stuff happens offstage. Particularly the dull stuff and the details. So the comic has Sabine going off to report. We do not even see her report at all, but we are to assume she did report, and that report is to be assumed to be in full until we hear otherwise.

[SandyCaesar]

Based on the fiends' reaction to Sabine's report, I would have to assume that they know about the gates and everything that Sabine knows (unless Sabine deliberately withholds knowledge, but we don't know anything about that).

However, it's more than a bit far-fetched to assume that Sabine told them to focus on Vaarsuvius. She would have mentioned the OotS and everyone who's in it, no doubt, but it's more likely that the fiends found the report interesting, decided to do some recon on the group, and waited for their moment to make an offer that one of the party members cannot refuse...

[Faramir]

Not only are they Sabine's supervisors, but Sabine told them about the gates and that the OotS was out to save them. According to Rich Roy's rez is supposed to come at a major personal cost to one of the members of the OotS or something like that. The deal offered by the 3 fiends - filling Vaarsuvius holes and offering more power than anyone has ever had - seems to fit "ultimate arcane power" pretty closely.

I think...
The 3 fiends know Vaarsuvius is out to save the gates. They want control of his soul at exactly the right moment when he is around the gates. Which she should reach with ease upon becoming the most powerful spellcaster in the world. Then they can manipulate the situation to their own purposes. And V is going to fulfill the prophecy and take the deal.

They are being careful to make the deal seem harmless and appealing to get a mortal to agree to it, otherwise Vaarsuvius would (and is) skeptical about accepting such a thing. Thing is, they are going to stick to the terms exactly as stated without twisting them to get anything more; but that's exactly what the fiends need to get the gate.


You know, this just occurred to me and I ran to the forum to post only to discover that someone else thought of it ages ago. I agree that this makes the most sense.

[shaxberd]

I agree that the three fiends are probably scamming, but I don't think they're outright lying. The things about their ultimate goal are probably genuine, but I think the 'anyone will do' part of the scam was a lie. They chose Vaarsuvius specifically, based on Sabine's report to them. Most likely, this is not to gain ownership of Vaarsuvius' soul but to gain a foothold within the Order of the Stick for the purpose of gaining control over the power that the remaining gates represent. Control over a power capable of destroying worlds and gods? I think that's exactly the kind of asset that a grassroots organization needs to attract a lot of new devoted and fanatical followers to their cause.

[krossbow]

Huh; now that is evil. Their actions herein have trapped V in regards to the pact primordial.


His actions here are not to save his mate; they have offered him an alternative. Rather, V has chosen due to PRIDE. By causing him to take this offer due to a sin rather than a virtue, they can have synched his soul in the long term.
By using this as proof against V, the Devils/demons/ect. could charge upon his death that he willingly consorted with evil beings because of a cardinal sin, and therefore his soul would belong to them anyways, regardless of contracts.

[Undead Prince]

Huh; now that is evil. Their actions herein have trapped V in regards to the pact primordial.


His actions here are not to save his mate; they have offered him an alternative. Rather, V has chosen due to PRIDE. By causing him to take this offer due to a sin rather than a virtue, they can have synched his soul in the long term.
By using this as proof against V, the Devils/demons/ect. could charge upon his death that he willingly consorted with evil beings because of a cardinal sin, and therefore his soul would belong to them anyways, regardless of contracts.

Quoted for truth. Yellow even goes out of his way to explain the alternative (which makes him the Lawful Evil one), so that to entrap V in the Faustian Pact without any chance of backpedaling due to duress or deceit. By the DnD rules on Pacts with the Devils, by taking the deal V becomes Evil and is damned for eternity regardless of the contract's "equal" terms.

[Amon Star]

I just have a question. If this is their first offer of the "soul splice" and this thread is discussing it, why is the title, "Used Car" sale?

Just to clarify, it's not the first use of a Soul Splice. It's the first use of a triple Soul Splice. At least according to these three.

[hamishspence]

Strictly, only a Pact Certain guarantees eternal torment. This is more like a very, very souped up Pact Insidious (and V isn't being asked to commit any specific evil acts in return for this power, V is only being asked to hand soul over to them for a very short time)

In any case, its not a Devilish Pact since they aren't all devils.

It might be an evil act to make this deal, but not necessarily guaranteeing V's damnation.

[adam_antio]

ok, this is my first real post. Be gentle :smalltongue:

Necromancy and conjuration are V's prohibited schools...
...and he/she has a very low charisma.

So, why the fiends are giving hir the powers of a conjurer, a necromancer and a sorcerer? Is it a coincidence?

[Kaytara]

ok, this is my first real post. Be gentle :smalltongue:

Necromancy and conjuration are V's prohibited schools...
...and he/she has a very low charisma.

So, why the fiends are giving hir the powers of a conjurer, a necromancer and a sorcerer? Is it a coincidence?

Nope. They've deliberately picked casters whose powers they feel should "complement V's own spellcasting deficits most superbly".

[adam_antio]

Nope. They've deliberately picked casters whose powers they feel should "complement V's own spellcasting deficits most superbly".

uh-oh. I missed that balloon. Sorry :smallbiggrin: