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Myou
2009-02-22, 01:16 PM
I'm going to be DMing a solo campaign for a friend and I'd appreciate some feedback on the houserules I plan to use. (All sources are open but anything totally broken is out.)

Are any of them going to cause problems? Would you be unhappy playing with any of them?

Edited;

1. Your Hit Dice always give maximum HP.

2. Healing spells that restore HP have their dice doubled.

3. There is no massive damage rule.

4. You die at the half the additive inverse of your HP. If your HP is x you die at 0.5*-x.

5. Player characters get a bonus feat at level 1.

6. There are no vorpal effects or enhancements.

7. Players cannot be evil.

8. The Blasphemy spell uses your class level not your caster level.

9. Candles of Invocation and Sarrukhs do not exist.

10. Wish and Miracle have the same experience cost when cast as a spell-like ability as when cast as a spell.

11. You cannot force a creature to expend experience when you summon it via a Gate spell.

12. There are no class alignment restrictions.

13. Psionics do no exist.

14. There is no multiclassing penalty.

15. Level 20 is not the limit for character or class levels; there are custom epic level rules.

16. Character flaws and traits are not allowed.

17. Ability points that have been permanently drained or lost being raised from the dead can be restored by Wish or Miracle. In cases where the ability in question provides benefits at each level (such as bonus HP from Constitution) those benefits are recalculated with the new ability score.

18. Full spellcasters who can cast a limited number of 0th level spells per day now have an infinite number of 0th level slots and the ability to cast 0th level spells without preparation (and to freely apply metamagic enhancements they know at the time of casting as long as doing so does not raise the level of the spell slot required), even if they couldn't do so before. If they wish to enhance a 0th level spell with any metamagic that raises the slot level this houserule does not apply.

19. Fighters get their bonus feats at the following class levels; 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, and 20. This helps remove dead levels from the class, gives them two more feats than they would otherwise gain, and prevents them being used as a 'dip' class.

20. You cannot artificially increase your caser level beyond 1.5 times its natural level. (E.g. at level 10 a sorcerer cannot have a caster level beyond 15.)

21. When a character gains a permanent Intelligence increase he gains skill points retroactively. He gains appropriate skill points for all of his character levels rather than just for current and future levels. For example a wizard who begins play with 17 Intelligence and uses his 4th level ability boost to increase his score to 18 immediately gains seven skill points rather than just one. Remember that items which boost ability modifiers do not give extra skill points/hit points, etc.

MisterSaturnine
2009-02-22, 01:24 PM
You die at the additive inverse of your HP. If your HP is x you die at -x.

This is the one I find iffy. Other stuff I wouldn't do (like banning psionics) just for flavor reasons, but I'd ban it, too, if it didn't fit the world. This is the only one that I could see causing mechanical difficulties. Namely, at high levels with a lot of HP, it could get very, very hard to kill anything.

Everything else looks pretty solid to me, though I do doubt that giving different feat spacing will raise the fighter beyond a dip class. You can still take it to 2nd and then drop it.

Ravens_cry
2009-02-22, 01:30 PM
2. You die at the additive inverse of your HP. If your HP is x you die at -x.
Is this just the PC, or does it include NPC monsters and such?
If it's just the PC, it's not exactly 'fair',but it is a way to make the campaign more survivable. Surrounding the players character with a cadre of DMPC's would also 'work' but wouldn't be as fun, I would imagine, for the player.

AgentPaper
2009-02-22, 01:51 PM
For fighter, I would give it 1.5 BAB per level and a bonus fighter feat every level. I also might double how effective the weapon focus/specialization line works. (at least the PHB ones) Whether this will break fighters depends on your group, though.

For the negative HP thing, I would use half your HP in negatives to die, instead of full, or even 1/4th. Not a bad idea, though. Be careful, though, because this makes Diehard more powerful, effectively giving you double HP with your system.

Myou
2009-02-22, 01:55 PM
This is the one I find iffy. Other stuff I wouldn't do (like banning psionics) just for flavor reasons, but I'd ban it, too, if it didn't fit the world. This is the only one that I could see causing mechanical difficulties. Namely, at high levels with a lot of HP, it could get very, very hard to kill anything.

Everything else looks pretty solid to me, though I do doubt that giving different feat spacing will raise the fighter beyond a dip class. You can still take it to 2nd and then drop it.

Well the idea is to avoid the instant deaths that you get at higher levels, where your 9hp buffer is just useless and you go from alive and fine to dead in a single blow. But once you have a foe dow to negative HP you can coup-de-grace them easily. Is it still too much?

I'm not trying to stop fighter dips, just make them pay off a little less and make the class slightly more useable without major chnages. Plus it's more fun for a straight fighter if he at least gets a feat every level.


Is this just the PC, or does it include NPC monsters and such?
If it's just the PC, it's not exactly 'fair',but it is a way to make the campaign more survivable. Surrounding the players character with a cadre of DMPC's would also 'work' but wouldn't be as fun, I would imagine, for the player.

It's everyone, PC and NPC.

Myou
2009-02-22, 01:59 PM
For fighter, I would give it 1.5 BAB per level and a bonus fighter feat every level. I also might double how effective the weapon focus/specialization line works. (at least the PHB ones) Whether this will break fighters depends on your group, though.

For the negative HP thing, I would use half your HP in negatives to die, instead of full, or even 1/4th. Not a bad idea, though. Be careful, though, because this makes Diehard more powerful, effectively giving you double HP with your system.

1.5 BAB would be more of a complication than I want, since it's nonstandard.

I don't mind fighters being a bit underpowered, your changes sound like they could unbalance things in the other way to me. Thanks for the suggestions though.

I was primarily worried about abilities that let you keep fighting into negative HP, yeah, perhaps a proportion of your HP is a better idea. I'll see what others say, but I think you're probably right.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-22, 02:02 PM
Apart from the negative HP rule I like them. What will your friend be playing as?

Random NPC
2009-02-22, 02:04 PM
Every time someone bans Psionics from a campaign, a tentacle monster is deprived of a Japanese school girl. Please, think of the tentacle monsters :smallfrown:

aje8
2009-02-22, 02:10 PM
Full spellcasters who can cast a limited number of 0th level spells per day now have an infinite number of 0th level slots and the ability to cast 0th level spells without preparation (and to freely apply metamagic enhancements they know at the time of casting as long as doing so does not raise the level of the spell slot required), even if they couldn't do so before. If they wish to enhance a 0th level spell with any metamagic that raises the slot level this houserule does not apply.
Um this is really overpowered.

Create Water floods a Dungeon, no need to fight monsters!

Detect Magic is on basically contiually, magical hidden doors or locks will ALWAYS be found.

If the Wizard has nothing to do in any given round, he'll down some Caltorps.

Speaking of which, make an infinite number of caltrops if you fell like it!

The Wizard also has Mage Hand on contiually. In fact scrath that, he casts like 20 and has them all lift something really heavy. Telekensis at-will??!!!

Trust me, many others have tried this rule before you. It doesn't work.

KIDS
2009-02-22, 02:11 PM
It looks great! It deals with several horrible things in D&D (alignment restrictions) and does an ok job to rebalance fighters and basic casting. The Retroactive skill points are a very much need addition too. All in all, 10/10 and I'd be glad if my DMs used that.

I like playing with psionics and don't like people banning them but there is plenty to play apart from them too...

p.s. 12 - Fighter level 1 should have some kind of bonus that is dependant on your fighter level so that while it's not dippable, a 1st level fighter has at least some kind of ability.
Maybe a 3/day bonus to a save or attack roll equal to 1/2 your Fighter level (min 1) which works in the same manner as action points (reactive).

RandomLunatic
2009-02-22, 02:12 PM
The rule my group uses is that death occurs at -(10+1/2 HD+CON modifier) hit points.

The only thing besides that I see is determing how to spend the retroactive skill points from 14. Any multiclassed character is going to need some way to determine what skills are class skils and which are CC. I would recommend for expedience's sake that any skill granted as a class skill by any class the character has be treated as a class skill for the purposes of retroactive skill points.

Myou
2009-02-22, 02:12 PM
Apart from the negative HP rule I like them. What will your friend be playing as?

Thanks. :3

He's a furry so he's looking at a variety of anthropomorphic races. I suggested Yuan-Ti and he's also considering Lizardfolk, Merfolk, Triton and a few others.


Every time someone bans Psionics from a campaign, a tentacle monster is deprived of a Japanese school girl. Please, think of the tentacle monsters :smallfrown:

Ewww, as a gay man I'd rather not see tentacle monsters raping schoolgirls. xD

Seriously though, I hate the psionics fluff and the whole tone of psionics just clashes horribly with the rest of the game for me.

Also, you don't have to be psionic to rape people with tentacles. ;D

Lamech
2009-02-22, 02:16 PM
Agreed infinite 0-th spells is a bad idea unless you balance for it. For starters cure minor spamming?

NEO|Phyte
2009-02-22, 02:16 PM
Also, you don't have to be psionic to rape people with tentacles. ;D
But it helps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/formofDoom.htm)!

UserClone
2009-02-22, 02:16 PM
If you want to make it so a PC probably won't get killed instantly, here's what you do:

If the hit takes them into the negatives (any negative), have the player roll a d10 and subtract that number from 0. This becomes their current HP. Is there a 10% chance of death? Yes. Is it better than just dying anyway. Yes. Is it better than making people with diehard nigh-impossible to kill? Yes.:smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2009-02-22, 02:20 PM
Thanks. :3

He's a furry so he's looking at a variety of anthropomorphic races. I suggested Yuan-Ti and he's also considering Lizardfolk, Merfolk, Triton and a few others.



Ewww, as a gay man I'd rather not see tentacle monsters raping schoolgirls. xD

Seriously though, I hate the psionics fluff and the whole tone of psionics just clashes horribly with the rest of the game for me.

Also, you don't have to be psionic to rape people with tentacles. ;D

At least it's not "PSIONICS R BR0KENZ!!1 AND TOTALLY OP!!". Dislike of the fluff/flavor is a perfectly valid reason, though there is always the option to refluff mechanics - I've done just that in my homebrew world, where 'psionics' is a person's innate link to the freeflowing magical energy of the world. YMMV though.

For the others, previous comments would sum my opinions up - #1,4,6,8,12,14 are all nice; 2 and 11 could have drastically unforseen consequences and should be looked at; #3,5,7,9 are personal world-building choices, others don't really have much to comment on.

Myou
2009-02-22, 02:28 PM
Um this is really overpowered.

Create Water floods a Dungeon, no need to fight monsters!

Detect Magic is on basically contiually, magical hidden doors or locks will ALWAYS be found.

If the Wizard has nothing to do in any given round, he'll down some Caltorps.

Speaking of which, make an infinite number of caltrops if you fell like it!

The Wizard also has Mage Hand on contiually. In fact scrath that, he casts like 20 and has them all lift something really heavy. Telekensis at-will??!!!

Trust me, many others have tried this rule before you. It doesn't work.

Well flooding dungeons is just silly, I'd have to be a pretty incompetant DM to allow that.

I think that someone who spends their life learning to control magic should be able to detect it. It's not like you can't get an item for about 1000gp with the same effect.

Caltorps? Cantrips? I really have no problem with that, what's he going to do, deal 1d3 cold damage?

What's wrong with making lots of caltrops? It's not like he can sell them - no-one wants a ton of caltrops.

Mage Hand does not work that way. XD


It looks great! It deals with several horrible things in D&D (alignment restrictions) and does an ok job to rebalance fighters and basic casting. The Retroactive skill points are a very much need addition too. All in all, 10/10 and I'd be glad if my DMs used that.

I like playing with psionics and don't like people banning them but there is plenty to play apart from them too...

p.s. 12 - Fighter level 1 should have some kind of bonus that is dependant on your fighter level so that while it's not dippable, a 1st level fighter has at least some kind of ability.
Maybe a 3/day bonus to a save or attack roll equal to 1/2 your Fighter level (min 1) which works in the same manner as action points (reactive).

Why thank you, that's very kind of you to say! ^^

I'll give the fighter suggestion some thought, it's a little more complicated than I like house rules to be, but it's a good idea, thank you.


The rule my group uses is that death occurs at -(10+1/2 HD+CON modifier) hit points.

The only thing besides that I see is determing how to spend the retroactive skill points from 14. Any multiclassed character is going to need some way to determine what skills are class skils and which are CC. I would recommend for expedience's sake that any skill granted as a class skill by any class the character has be treated as a class skill for the purposes of retroactive skill points.

That rule's just a little too complex, I don't like complicated house rules.

I'm slightly confused, wouldn't they just be able to spend 1 rank in a skill for every level they have that has it as a C skill, and 1/2 a rank for every level they have that has it as a CC skill?

ericgrau
2009-02-22, 02:39 PM
Anything not listed below is too minor to worry about. So sure, go for it if you want.

2. Makes smart cleric healing obsolete. He'll just wait until after battle to do any healing of incapacitated allies. Which means a CLW wand is all he needs, which means anyone with just 1 level in ranger/bard/paladin/cleric/druid can replace his healing.

6, 8. Won't really fix anything, but not that big of a deal anyway. The real purpose of the orginal rule 6 is to prevent abusive dipping, not to slap everyone with an xp penalty. If it makes you feel better you could ban this kind of multiclassing altogether, or just manually keep tabs on abusive multiclassing yourself (which will help you watch prestiging too). Rule 8 is a band-aid on a much larger problem that stems as much from players as from the system. For this an intimate understanding of the skill rules are the best answer. Otherwise you're better off just ditching skills than misusing them IMO.

11. Just make sure to disallow infinite cure minor wounds. Pathfinder changes the spell to "Stabilize", which should work.

12. Hot topic, too in depth; I don't feel like touching this one today.

Myou
2009-02-22, 02:41 PM
But it helps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/formofDoom.htm)!

Rofl! xD
Ok, I'm making that into an arcane spell.


If you want to make it so a PC probably won't get killed instantly, here's what you do:

If the hit takes them into the negatives (any negative), have the player roll a d10 and subtract that number from 0. This becomes their current HP. Is there a 10% chance of death? Yes. Is it better than just dying anyway. Yes. Is it better than making people with diehard nigh-impossible to kill? Yes.:smallwink:

That is a very clever way to do it, good idea.

I'm leaning more towards half your max HP though.


At least it's not "PSIONICS R BR0KENZ!!1 AND TOTALLY OP!!". Dislike of the fluff/flavor is a perfectly valid reason, though there is always the option to refluff mechanics - I've done just that in my homebrew world, where 'psionics' is a person's innate link to the freeflowing magical energy of the world. YMMV though.

For the others, previous comments would sum my opinions up - #1,4,6,8,12,14 are all nice; 2 and 11 could have drastically unforseen consequences and should be looked at; #3,5,7,9 are personal world-building choices, others don't really have much to comment on.

Yeah, psionics are more balanced than magic in 3.5, that's certainly not a problem for me.

Refluffing would help, but I also just don't like the ethos, psionic powers are too dark and horror-themed for me.

2 and 11 are certainly the ones people have raised, yes, I'm still considering them.

Thanks for the detailed response. :3


Agreed infinite 0-th spells is a bad idea unless you balance for it. For starters cure minor spamming?

Hmmm, possibly, I'm still not convinced that there's a problem with infinite 0th level spells. What would you consider to be the danger and how would you cure it?

Starbuck_II
2009-02-22, 02:43 PM
There are few issues I have:
1) I'm not big on psionics being banned, but I can survive if they must be. I still have other classes I haven't played.

2) Bards at level 1 will love you (as they only have 0 level spells at level 1).
Only Cure Minor means infinite healing from Clerics out of battle.

3) Inverse hps mean it is realy heard to kill a Troll:
I mean, sure you can knock them unconscious and bleeding, but someone might walk by and heal the thing.

But I guess in general, the players will Coup De Grace the thing.

4) Monks will thank you.

Mostly good houserules.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-22, 02:49 PM
If he's a furry, he may like some of the races I made:
Vulpines. (http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,136.0.html)
Fenneckin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104140)
Apefolk. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104827)

If you wanted to nerf any races down to LA 0 (not that there's a need in this game), I'd be willing to help. :smallsmile: (I have an LA 0 Lizardfolk already.)

Infinite healing is probably the only real issue with infinite Cantrips. Which class does your friend want to use?

woodenbandman
2009-02-22, 02:51 PM
Anything not listed below is too minor to worry about. So sure, go for it if you want.

2. Makes smart cleric healing obsolete. He'll just wait until after battle to do any healing of incapacitated allies. Which means a CLW wand is all he needs, which means anyone with just 1 level in ranger/bard/paladin/cleric/druid can replace his healing.

6, 8. Won't really fix anything, but not that big of a deal anyway. The real purpose of the orginal rule 6 is to prevent abusive dipping, not to slap everyone with an xp penalty. If it makes you feel better you could ban this kind of multiclassing altogether, or just manually keep tabs on abusive multiclassing yourself (which will help you watch prestiging too). Rule 8 is a band-aid on a much larger problem that stems as much from players as from the system. For this an intimate understanding of the skill rules are the best answer. Otherwise you're better off just ditching skills than misusing them IMO.

11. Just make sure to disallow infinite cure minor wounds. Pathfinder changes the spell to "Stabilize", which should work.

12. Hot topic, too in depth; I don't feel like touching this one today.

2 is true of normal DnD. A SMART cleric will not heal you. A smart cleric will tell you to go die. A bleeding heart cleric will go over and heal you. This house rule doesn't really change that aspect, though the death at -hp is a little iffy. It means you kind of need to kill things with a coup de grace from now on.

6 and 8 are great house rules. There is no such dip as an "abusive dip." Anything that relies on dipping a bunch of different abilities is, unfortunately, strictly inferior to a normal spellcaster. When you really dig deep into the spellcasters (and it's a common mistake not to, since their class feature list is exactly 1 line long), you get the most deliciously cheesy and abusive things in the game.

11. No, don't disallow endless cure minor wounds. Let them spend 100 rounds healing, that's fine. A smart cleric won't heal you.

12. Good, but not a perfect fix.

Myou
2009-02-22, 03:03 PM
Anything not listed below is too minor to worry about. So sure, go for it if you want.

2. Makes smart cleric healing obsolete. He'll just wait until after battle to do any healing of incapacitated allies. Which means a CLW wand is all he needs, which means anyone with just 1 level in ranger/bard/paladin/cleric/druid can replace his healing.

6, 8. Won't really fix anything, but not that big of a deal anyway. The real purpose of the orginal rule 6 is to prevent abusive dipping, not to slap everyone with an xp penalty. If it makes you feel better you could ban this kind of multiclassing altogether, or just manually keep tabs on abusive multiclassing yourself (which will help you watch prestiging too). Rule 8 is a band-aid on a much larger problem that stems as much from players as from the system. For this an intimate understanding of the skill rules are the best answer. Otherwise you're better off just ditching skills than misusing them IMO.

11. Just make sure to disallow infinite cure minor wounds. Pathfinder changes the spell to "Stabilize", which should work.

12. Hot topic, too in depth; I don't feel like touching this one today.

2. That's only if the party can win without healing during battle though, surely if a battle is tough they're going to want to heal more than a few HP at a time?

6. I'm not really worried about abusive dipping, since I can always just refuse a build that gets too silly. The multiclassing rules are just another thing to remember.

8. It's just a way to simplify things a little, I don't really see how it's misuse. o.O

11. Is infinite CMW a problem? It's just 1HP/round, I don't see a problem with letting players recover HP more easily outside of battle, am I missing something?

12. Err, odd, I didn't think that anyone would object to that one, is there really any danger of a monk getting overpowered just with full BAB?

Saintjebus
2009-02-22, 03:04 PM
You want to give the spellcasters more flexibility and use out of cantrips, right? This is what I would do. Make all cantrips cast spontaneously, and you can know all cantrips on your spell list. You have double the listed per day use of cantrips for your class, i.e., wizards have a max of 6, now they have a max of 12. That gives them flexibility without giving them the chance to spam the cantrips.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-22, 03:12 PM
Point 12 was a reference due to how heated Monk threads can get around here (it's a controversial topic).

Myou
2009-02-22, 03:18 PM
There are few issues I have:
1) I'm not big on psionics being banned, but I can survive if they must be. I still have other classes I haven't played.

2) Bards at level 1 will love you (as they only have 0 level spells at level 1).
Only Cure Minor means infinite healing from Clerics out of battle.

3) Inverse hps mean it is realy heard to kill a Troll:
I mean, sure you can knock them unconscious and bleeding, but someone might walk by and heal the thing.

But I guess in general, the players will Coup De Grace the thing.

4) Monks will thank you.

Mostly good houserules.

1. I've already talked to my friend about that one and he's fine with it. ^^
If he really wanted to be a psion or something I'd let him, but since he doesn't....

2. Actually, they won't. They're not full spellasters. xD

3. I think I'm decided on half instead of full inverse. Unless anyone disagrees.

Thank you!


If he's a furry, he may like some of the races I made:
Vulpines. (http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,136.0.html)
Fenneckin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104140)
Apefolk. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104827)

If you wanted to nerf any races down to LA 0 (not that there's a need in this game), I'd be willing to help. :smallsmile: (I have an LA 0 Lizardfolk already.)

Infinite healing is probably the only real issue with infinite Cantrips. Which class does your friend want to use?

He's actually already played a few races like yours, although not as well-made mechanically. He's looking for something outside of mammals at the moment. Thanks though!

He's not yet sure on class.


2 is true of normal DnD. A SMART cleric will not heal you. A smart cleric will tell you to go die. A bleeding heart cleric will go over and heal you. This house rule doesn't really change that aspect, though the death at -hp is a little iffy. It means you kind of need to kill things with a coup de grace from now on.

6 and 8 are great house rules. There is no such dip as an "abusive dip." Anything that relies on dipping a bunch of different abilities is, unfortunately, strictly inferior to a normal spellcaster. When you really dig deep into the spellcasters (and it's a common mistake not to, since their class feature list is exactly 1 line long), you get the most deliciously cheesy and abusive things in the game.

11. No, don't disallow endless cure minor wounds. Let them spend 100 rounds healing, that's fine. A smart cleric won't heal you.

12. Good, but not a perfect fix.

That was my thinking on CMW too, if they want to spend all day healing they can, I can always interrupt them if I want them on low HP.
Thanks for your comments!

RTGoodman
2009-02-22, 03:20 PM
For the HP/dying thing, here's a couple of suggestions. If you don't want to use negative HP as the death limit, how about either the negative value of 1/2 your HP (your "negative bloodied value" in 4E terms), or even the negative version of your Constitution score. People with average Con still die at -10, but Fighters/Barbarians/whatever can survive to -20 or more.

The only other I don't really like is the Fighter fix. Just giving 'em more feats probably won't help. I'd prefer to give them, you know, actual class features. You can find a bajillion Fighter "fixes" online here and on the WotC forums, among other places, that do just that if you want some ideas.

Myou
2009-02-22, 03:23 PM
Point 12 was a reference due to how heated Monk threads can get around here (it's a controversial topic).

Ahhh, I see. I've yet to view a monk thread. xD


You want to give the spellcasters more flexibility and use out of cantrips, right? This is what I would do. Make all cantrips cast spontaneously, and you can know all cantrips on your spell list. You have double the listed per day use of cantrips for your class, i.e., wizards have a max of 6, now they have a max of 12. That gives them flexibility without giving them the chance to spam the cantrips.

Actually, I also want to avoid the eventualiy at low levels of casters running out of spells and having to fire crossbows and the like. I want casters to always be able to cast something even if it's just for a few points of damage.

Myou
2009-02-22, 03:26 PM
For the HP/dying thing, here's a couple of suggestions. If you don't want to use negative HP as the death limit, how about either the negative value of 1/2 your HP (your "negative bloodied value" in 4E terms), or even the negative version of your Constitution score. People with average Con still die at -10, but Fighters/Barbarians/whatever can survive to -20 or more.

The only other I don't really like is the Fighter fix. Just giving 'em more feats probably won't help. I'd prefer to give them, you know, actual class features. You can find a bajillion Fighter "fixes" online here and on the WotC forums, among other places, that do just that if you want some ideas.

I am indeed going for half HP like you say.

The thing is that I'm not that worried anout them being underpowered, it's more about making them less of a 2-level dip and getting rid of all the dead levels for a dedicated fighter.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-22, 03:35 PM
Do you have links to the races he's used please? I'm pleased you liked mine.:smallsmile:

Myou
2009-02-22, 03:42 PM
Do you have links to the races he's used please? I'm pleased you liked mine.:smallsmile:

I'm afraid they were races that the DM he came up with for him. He's told me about them but I don't have the specifics, sorry! D:

Mad Wizard
2009-02-22, 03:42 PM
On the topic of 0th level spells: The only real issue that I see here is that clerics can just spend cure minors to heal people instead of anything bigger. If you don't see this as a problem, that's fine, but it will change how clerics heal a bit.

Myou
2009-02-22, 03:51 PM
On the topic of 0th level spells: The only real issue that I see here is that clerics can just spend cure minors to heal people instead of anything bigger. If you don't see this as a problem, that's fine, but it will change how clerics heal a bit.

I agree they'll want to use CMW out of battle, but I don't see that replacing more powerful healing, since in battle that's almost useless other than for stabilising someone.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-22, 03:51 PM
Create Water floods a Dungeon, no need to fight monsters!
That's going take quite a while ... hell I'd think the drainage system (which every dungeon should have of course) should be able to handle it even.

Detect Magic is on basically contiually, magical hidden doors or locks will ALWAYS be found.
Lot of ways to get continuous detect magic anyway, Nystul's Magic Aura can still hide those.

Speaking of which, make an infinite number of caltrops if you fell like it!
Not infinite.

The Wizard also has Mage Hand on contiually. In fact scrath that, he casts like 20 and has them all lift something really heavy. Telekensis at-will??!!!
There is a cheap item of at will mage hand, also it takes concentration ... so you can only use one.

AgentPaper
2009-02-22, 04:03 PM
Another thing you could pull in straight from 4E, is death saving throws. Basically, make a fortitude save every round you're unconscious, unless you're stable. The DC of the save is trickier, but you might just use the "roll a d20, higher than 15 and you're stable" method that 4E uses. (not sure on exact numbers there, actually)

And for negative value you can get to, you can use your constitution score as the value you have to reach before you die, or double that if that seems too low. Makes con even more important.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-22, 04:07 PM
1. There is no massive damage rule.

2. You die at the half the additive inverse of your HP. If your HP is x you die at 0.5*-x.

4. There are no class alignment restrictions.

10. Ability points that have been permanently drained or lost being raised from the dead can be restored by Wish or Miracle. In cases where the ability in question provides benefits at each level (such as bonus HP from Constitution) those benefits are recalculated with the new ability score.

12. Monks gain full BAB progression.



Be careful with number 12. Monks can get to 12d8 very easily and it would make them beasts if they were given more attacks. Of course, you can always change it if Monks begin to overshadow Rogues. I would advice keep them at the same Multiple Attack Progression (1 extra attack at level 9 instead of 6) because Monks get loads of attacks through FoB already.

I agree with 1. I've seen too many massive BBEG fights end because the Fighter does 51 points of damage and the BBEG rolls a 1.

2 is nice. But be sure to scrape the rule that any heal at negative puts you at 0, otherwise the Barbarian with 200 HP is going to be negative -150 and go to full with a Cure Minor.

Be careful with 4; it may allow some combinations that are too powerful.

10 makes sense, Miracle and Wish are crazy high level so they should have powerful affects.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-22, 04:20 PM
Be careful with number 12. Monks can get to 12d8 very easily and it would make them beasts if they were given more attacks.
I think there should be a cap on how many size increases you can stack on a weapon ... at least depending on the size of the target. A fist from a huge creature is already the same size as a medium creature ... how is it going to hit a medium creature harder by becoming even bigger?

Myou
2009-02-22, 04:28 PM
Another thing you could pull in straight from 4E, is death saving throws. Basically, make a fortitude save every round you're unconscious, unless you're stable. The DC of the save is trickier, but you might just use the "roll a d20, higher than 15 and you're stable" method that 4E uses. (not sure on exact numbers there, actually)

And for negative value you can get to, you can use your constitution score as the value you have to reach before you die, or double that if that seems too low. Makes con even more important.

Isn't that how things work already? Roll an 18 to stabilise and lose 1hp each time you fail?
Although the once/round does sound better.

I like adding to the value of Con, but it scales very inconsistantly, unlike HP. And Con will affect it either way.


Be careful with number 12. Monks can get to 12d8 very easily and it would make them beasts if they were given more attacks. Of course, you can always change it if Monks begin to overshadow Rogues. I would advice keep them at the same Multiple Attack Progression (1 extra attack at level 9 instead of 6) because Monks get loads of attacks through FoB already.

I agree with 1. I've seen too many massive BBEG fights end because the Fighter does 51 points of damage and the BBEG rolls a 1.

2 is nice. But be sure to scrape the rule that any heal at negative puts you at 0, otherwise the Barbarian with 200 HP is going to be negative -150 and go to full with a Cure Minor.

Be careful with 4; it may allow some combinations that are too powerful.

10 makes sense, Miracle and Wish are crazy high level so they should have powerful affects.

Well I can change it if it becomes an inssue, but they suck so much already that it seems like it's not too powerful.

Yeah, that's why I've banned vorpal weapons too, it can really spoil a good plot when the BBEG that isn't meant to die for ten levels dies from a singe lucky sword swing.

I've not seen that rule, I was pretty sure you just gain the normal HP healed and stabilise when at negative HP.

On the topic of 4, is that what the rules were there for? I thought they were just fluff. The classes with alignment restrictions are weaker ones to begin with.

That was my thinking as well, and ability drains are really cruel too, why punish players like that?


Thanks for all the replies so far everyone. ^^

ericgrau
2009-02-22, 05:27 PM
2. That's only if the party can win without healing during battle though, surely if a battle is tough they're going to want to heal more than a few HP at a time?

6. I'm not really worried about abusive dipping, since I can always just refuse a build that gets too silly. The multiclassing rules are just another thing to remember.

8. It's just a way to simplify things a little, I don't really see how it's misuse. o.O

11. Is infinite CMW a problem? It's just 1HP/round, I don't see a problem with letting players recover HP more easily outside of battle, am I missing something?

12. Err, odd, I didn't think that anyone would object to that one, is there really any danger of a monk getting overpowered just with full BAB?
2. A smart cleric saves healing for emergencies as this takes a round and the cleric can spend it being an okay enough fighter/etc. himself. For example he could lay down a harm instead of a heal. No death = no emergency. Unless the party needs that particular ally for something.

6. Alright no worries then.

8. I meant misusing skills in general, not due to the house rule. The house rule seems to only be fixing something that comes from misuse anyway. That's why I suggested a through reading & understanding of the skill system, or else just ad hoc'ing the whole thing and doing w/o the skill system.

11. Free between battle healing from a cantrip is supposed to be the problem, yeah. If you don't mind it I guess you could just give the party a little less treasure to compensate. Dunno if they'll still find some way to abuse it like healing an entire village/army or something though.

12. EDIT: Covered by others. Basically for a direct damage monk it's not enough and may tempt & trap players into playing one. And for a different kind of monk, well that's the big debate.

Myou
2009-02-22, 05:50 PM
2. A smart cleric saves healing for emergencies as this takes a round and the cleric can spend it being an okay enough fighter/etc. himself. For example he could lay down a harm instead of a heal. No death = no emergency. Unless the party needs that particular ally for something.

6. Alright no worries then.

8. I meant misusing them in general, not due to the house rule. The house rule seems to only be fixing something that comes from misuse anyway. That's why I suggested a through reading & understanding of the skill system, or else just ad hoc'ing the whole thing and doing w/o the skill system.

11. Free between battle healing from a cantrip is supposed to be the problem, yeah. If you don't mind it I guess you could just give the party a little less treasure to compensate. Dunno if they'll still find some way to abuse it like healing an entire village/army or something though.

12. Not necessarily overpowered or underpowered, just a rather in depth subject matter. Use it if you want, but IMO for those who play monks in a way that they need it (direct damage only) then it won't be enough and it'll be a weak & bland trap for your players. BAB will still only be par and yet w/o any AB boosting class abilities or weapons, AC poor, damage less than TWFer, number of attacks same as TWFer. The NPC class warrior could do better. As for monks not using only "direct damage", I'm not gonna get into the monk debate right now.

2. Ah, I see what you mean now. But a heal allows his team to take an extra standard and move action each turn, the harm is just a standard action on one turn. It seems to me that reviving a fallen ally is a far better idea than just hurting an enemy. It won't be an emergency but it'll still be a good idea. (Feel free to tell me where I'm mistaken, I'm not the most experienced player. xD )

8. Ah, I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean by misuse then, how do players misuse them? ^^;

11. The thing is that it's so slow that I can't really see it being an issue. And I like the idea of free healing anyway, it encourages them to heal up and move on instead of resting every 15 minutes. If players do abuse it then hey, guess what? While they sit about touching eachother a group of monsters wander across them. xD
Reduced treasure will also help offset it, good idea.

12. Well, I'm not looking to perfectly balance them, it's a simple and logical change that can help at least.

UserClone
2009-02-22, 06:03 PM
You could just do what Pathfinder did (and I like): turn CMW into "Stabilize." Same thing, but no HP change. Inflict minor becomes "bleed," which causes a stable creature in the negatives to lose 1hp and start bleeding out again. So you couldn't spam CMW on living creatures or IMW on undead to keep healing them all day.

Myou
2009-02-22, 08:21 PM
You could just do what Pathfinder did (and I like): turn CMW into "Stabilize." Same thing, but no HP change. Inflict minor becomes "bleed," which causes a stable creature in the negatives to lose 1hp and start bleeding out again. So you couldn't spam CMW on living creatures or IMW on undead to keep healing them all day.

But you'd only be doing 1 damage at a time, isn't it easier to just attack them normally anyway?

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-23, 02:43 AM
Attacking would definitly be easier; the potential problem is limited to being able to heal undead infinitly (to be fair, Dread Necromancers can do that as well with Charnel Touch).

Curmudgeon
2009-02-23, 02:53 AM
7. Level 20 is not the limit for character or class levels. This isn't a house rule. This is RAW.

Satyr
2009-02-23, 03:43 AM
1. There is no massive damage rule.

2. You die at the half the additive inverse of your HP. If your HP is x you die at 0.5*-x.

[...]

10. Ability points that have been permanently drained or lost being raised from the dead can be restored by Wish or Miracle. In cases where the ability in question provides benefits at each level (such as bonus HP from Constitution) those benefits are recalculated with the new ability score.

I would recommend against these rules, as cheapening death even further will do nothing do the game but kill another part of the game's suspense. Injury and pain become even less significant, heavy wounds have even less meaning to the game, which leads to a very undesirable effect: combats and risky situations get duller and much less interesting, as the dedication of the less risky confrontations pull the danger's teeth.
If you want to make the game more suspenseful, you should find a way to increase the survivability without crippling the suspense.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-23, 03:46 AM
If it's a solo game, would the player be able to revive himself easily, though? Also, Wish and Miracle are 9th level spells so it's not as if they will be easily accessible unless the game starts at a really high level.

Myou
2009-02-23, 05:41 AM
Attacking would definitly be easier; the potential problem is limited to being able to heal undead infinitly (to be fair, Dread Necromancers can do that as well with Charnel Touch).

When it's for 1HP at a time I don't really think it's something worth worrying about. xD


This isn't a house rule. This is RAW.

That depends on which books you use I guess. Without using the Epic Level handbook it certainly is a houserule, and we're not using the ELH's progresion.


I would recommend against these rules, as cheapening death even further will do nothing do the game but kill another part of the game's suspense. Injury and pain become even less significant, heavy wounds have even less meaning to the game, which leads to a very undesirable effect: combats and risky situations get duller and much less interesting, as the dedication of the less risky confrontations pull the danger's teeth.
If you want to make the game more suspenseful, you should find a way to increase the survivability without crippling the suspense.

As Tempest Fennac, 1st level players will have to wait a long time before they can get a Wish.

And the massive damage rule is inane, it really is. You just have to make fortitude saves every time you get attacked, and even the most powerful characters die on a 1, it's like getting Vorpal on all your weapons for free only they roll instead of you.

I don't see how these rules will make the game more survivable, you still die when your party get beaten and you still live as long as the cleric is ok so I really don't see a problem.

Also, endless player death wil cheapen not only death but the player's characters, I prefer death to be rare but a threat.


If it's a solo game, would the player be able to revive himself easily, though? Also, Wish and Miracle are 9th level spells so it's not as if they will be easily accessible unless the game starts at a really high level.

And yes, in this game it's even less of an issue, and we're starting at level 1.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-23, 07:12 AM
That depends on which books you use I guess. Without using the Epic Level handbook it certainly is a houserule, and we're not using the ELH's progresion. You're wrong. Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 source. The basics for Epic level characters in 3.5 are in the Dungeon Master's Guide on pages 206-210. Epic progressions for all the PH classes are part of the 3.5 core rules.

Myou
2009-02-23, 08:17 AM
You're wrong. Epic Level Handbook is a 3.0 source. The basics for Epic level characters in 3.5 are in the Dungeon Master's Guide on pages 206-210. Epic progressions for all the PH classes are part of the 3.5 core rules.

Oh, my mistake.

I guess I should say we're not using the official epic rules then.

Tonkarz
2009-02-23, 08:24 AM
11. Sorcerers are already outclassed by Wizards in some major ways. The last thing they need is spontaneous casting Wizards even if it is only cantrips. Maybe wizards and sorcerers have all 0th level spells as spells known? At least this way there is some respect for class balance. Don't forget that spontaneous metamagic takes a full-round-action.

ericgrau
2009-02-23, 09:13 AM
2. Ah, I see what you mean now. But a heal allows his team to take an extra standard and move action each turn, the harm is just a standard action on one turn. It seems to me that reviving a fallen ally is a far better idea than just hurting an enemy. It won't be an emergency but it'll still be a good idea. (Feel free to tell me where I'm mistaken, I'm not the most experienced player. xD )

8. Ah, I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean by misuse then, how do players misuse them? ^^;

2. Depends. The harm could also take down a monster and prevent his standard actions and move actions. Often the cleric can do more with damage than healing, and monsters could just as easily drop the healed guy again. Or sometimes the baddies can do more damage than the healing, which just makes the healing a counter-productive use of an action.

8. I mean "misuse" as in "misunderstand" / "misapply" skill rules. As in stemming from having not read them and not really knowing much about them. If you check the skill descriptions most skills have fixed DC's that can be used at any level, so there is still a lot you can do without maxed out ranks. So players don't need this house-rule, and really it just makes the skill-monkeys less special.

But if the DM is upping the DCs as PCs level up, then that's what created the issue you're trying to solve in the first place. It also greatly nerfs the skillmonkey since he continues to fail on some of his checks regardless of his level and because this same DM tends to ignore the existence of half the skills. I've seen it reach the point and I've also heard of it reaching the point where players just say "screw it", play a non-skillmonkey and intentionally fail on skills while eating the consequences. And do better.

Solution: read the skill rules, allow skills to apply only when they say they apply, use the DCs given, allow taking 10's and 20's when appropriate and remember there's no such thing as a natural 1 or 20. If PCs then get automatic success on a lot of low or medium DC tasks even without maxed out ranks, then that's good.

Myou
2009-02-23, 09:31 AM
11. Sorcerers are already outclassed by Wizards in some major ways. The last thing they need is spontaneous casting Wizards even if it is only cantrips. Maybe wizards and sorcerers have all 0th level spells as spells known? At least this way there is some respect for class balance. Don't forget that spontaneous metamagic takes a full-round-action.

Considering how weak cantrips are, I'm not too worried about sorcerers losing out slightly, come higher levels it really won't matter and at lower levels sorcerers are stronger since they haven't yet fallen much behind in spells but can cast quite a few more than wizards.

Spontanious metamagic with a 0 cost is now free to apply to cantrips, not a full-round action.

Cantrips are so weak that I can't really see how that can be a problem.


2. Depends. Often he can do more with damage than healing, and monsters could just as easily drop the healed guy again. Sometimes the baddies can do more damage than the healing, which just makes the healing a counter-productive use of an action.

8. I mean "misuse" as in "misunderstand" / "misapply" skill rules. As in stemming from having not read them and not really knowing much about them. If you check the skill descriptions most skills have fixed DC's that can be used at any level, so there is still a lot you can do without maxed out ranks. So players don't need this house-rule, and really it just makes the skill-monkeys less special. But if the DM is upping the DCs as PCs level up, then that's what created the issue you're trying to solve in the first place. It also greatly nerfs the skillmonkey since he continues to fail on some of his checks regardless of his level and because this same DM tends to ignore the existence of half the skills. I've seen it reach the point and I've also heard of it reaching the point where players just say "screw it", play a non-skillmonkey and intentionally fail on skills while eating the consequences. And do better. Solution: read the skill rules, allow skills to apply only when they say they apply, use the DCs given, allow taking 10's and 20's when appropriate and remember there's no such thing as a natural 1 or 20.

2. It seem like it's not really a problem, it just shifts the balance of actions a little. Sometimes the cleric can restore more HP than the villains can take away (with higher level healing) and if you revive a caster he may be able to avoid coming under attack at all.

8. I'm not trying to fix anything here. o.O
I'm just making things less complicated. Skillmonkeys still get far more skill points.

Dragonsdoom
2009-02-23, 02:41 PM
14. Retroactive Skill Points
When a character gains a permanent Intelligence increase he gains appropriate skill points for all of his their character levels rather than just for current and future levels. For example a wizard who begins play with a 17 Intelligence uses his 4th level ability boost to increase his score to 18. Therefore he immediately gains seven skill points rather than just one. Remember that items which boost ability modifiers do not give extra skill points/hit points, etc.

I like that rule, it never occurred to me to use it until you mentioned it here.

May I post my house rules as well in this thread to get some feedback on them before I drop them on my players please?
I just don't want to clog up the forums with more threads if I can help it.

Full BAB for monks can get really really deadly in the hands of someone with the right books; if my monk from the last game I played had full BAB I would have been incredibly broken for sure.
I did not have full BAB and still surpassed everyone else in the party including the barbarian and the batman wizard when it came to damage output.

Of course, the d8 hit dice slowed me down a bit...

Person_Man
2009-02-23, 03:28 PM
2. You die at the half the additive inverse of your HP. If your HP is x you die at 0.5*-x.

Really a moot point in a solo campaign. Unless he has NPC friends to help him, then unconscious = dead.

And as a house rule for general campaigns, I wouldn't use it. Death needs to be a real threat for PCs to care about their decisions. If death is nearly impossible, then they can do almost anything without consequences.


3. There are no Vorpal effects or enhancements.

Why? I never use "Your dead, no matter what" effects on the PC. And if the PCs use it on enemies, it's use is generally quite rare.


The Able Learner feat can be taken by any race but only at first level, and makes all skills class skills.

Negates much of the value of playing a Skill Monkey class or human.


Everything else seems pretty reasonable.

Myou
2009-02-24, 07:00 PM
Thank you to everyone who's posted, I've been thinking over all the advice so far and also just mulling things over, and I've made a few changes, additions and subtractions.

I updated my first post, any further advice would be much appreciated.

Everyone who said that Able Lerner was a bad idea was right. :3