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Urthdigger
2009-02-22, 01:31 PM
There's a few things I've done in my campaign that I have to wonder if I got away with cheap tricks, or if they would actually work in most campaigns.

First off is climbing onto an opponent. I haven't seen any rules on this, but the DM and I decided that it could work by making a touch attack roll to see if the monster dodges, followed by a climb check to climb the adversary. Opponent can make a grapple check and remove the climber by achieving a pin, or just attack him, the climber losing all dex bonuses to AC. I'm also wondering how to decide rules on the climber attacking the bigger opponent (Person being climbed loses dex bonuses as well?), as well as if it'd be possible to use the close vantage point to search for weak spots (For example, Smaug's missing scale), and how to determine extra damage from attacking said points (Treat it like a sneak attack?). I've always liked the idea of a "Shadow of the Colossus" type fight against large opponents, using whatever means necessary to overcome a smaller stature.

Second is familiar HD. In the campaign I'm in, we decided that "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher. " means that while you don't actually roll new numbers for the animal's HP, that's the only factor that doesn't go up. So, to that extent, any templates get adjusted based on the master's level and it can cast spells at the same power as the master, although it's only able to memorize spells through use of the spell-linked familiar feat so it has a much smaller battery of firepower. However, I've seen in other places people saying that a familiar should use spells that aren't based on caster level due to their HD, is there any place that explicitly says this, or is this just how some people interpret the rules?

WingedHorse
2009-02-22, 01:52 PM
There's a few things I've done in my campaign that I have to wonder if I got away with cheap tricks, or if they would actually work in most campaigns.

First off is climbing onto an opponent. I haven't seen any rules on this, but the DM and I decided that it could work by making a touch attack roll to see if the monster dodges, followed by a climb check to climb the adversary. Opponent can make a grapple check and remove the climber by achieving a pin, or just attack him, the climber losing all dex bonuses to AC. I'm also wondering how to decide rules on the climber attacking the bigger opponent (Person being climbed loses dex bonuses as well?), as well as if it'd be possible to use the close vantage point to search for weak spots (For example, Smaug's missing scale), and how to determine extra damage from attacking said points (Treat it like a sneak attack?). I've always liked the idea of a "Shadow of the Colossus" type fight against large opponents, using whatever means necessary to overcome a smaller stature.

Well... I think it should be a lot more difficult. Climber needs only touch attack and climb check to climb but the big guy needs to *pin* him?

I would at least assume that every time the big guy damages the climber, the latter needs to make a climb check (similar to the concentration check that spellcasters do when they are damaged as they cast) or fall down. And the DC to climb an opponent that does his best to hit with large pointy things should be quite high. Perhaps 20 + opponent's BAB? And the AOO provoked (like when grappling) should be quite clear...

BRC
2009-02-22, 01:55 PM
I would say that somebody being climbed should be able to make a strength or dex check to shake off the person trying to climb them. That check+10 sets the DC for a concentration or climb check by the climber to stay on.

Urthdigger
2009-02-22, 05:51 PM
Yeah, I figured AoO was a given since you'd be entering the other person's square. As for the ability to shake them off, that's a pretty good idea. I used the weasel's Attach as a basis for how to treat the climber. Though, keep in mind that anyone being climbed is going to be quite a bit bigger (2 size category difference at least, any less of a difference and it's just a hug), giving the bigger guy at least +8 modifier, not even counting his most likely bigger strength score.

As for the climbing DC, we figured a DC of 30 for the one time I've actually done this, as although handholds were readily available it was something motion, with a check needing to be made each round. Should be easy enough to have the DC increased if the opponent is actively attempting to shake the climber off (In the one case where I've used this, the bad guy was making no such attempts because he didn't consider it a threat)

bosssmiley
2009-02-23, 06:08 AM
Tome Series "Races of War" fixes the poorly written brokeness that is grapple so you can actually do colossus climbs and mumakil headshots quickly and easily.

Totally Guy
2009-02-23, 06:13 AM
What happens if the big guy decides to climb the small one?

Saph
2009-02-23, 06:20 AM
Well... I think it should be a lot more difficult. Climber needs only touch attack and climb check to climb but the big guy needs to *pin* him?

Yeah, this is a bit dubious.

I'd be fine with the touch attack + Climb check approach if you want to do a Wander impression (plus an AoO on the way in, probably), but bear in mind that the monsters in Shadow of the Colossus are slow. In D&D terms, they'd get about one action for every three of yours.

So you could climb up easily enough, but assuming the monster's got hands, it can just do a grapple check to pull you off.

I actually had a PC do this repeatedly in my Red Hand of Doom game: her signature move whenever they fought a dragon was to jump onto its back and try and stab it in the neck. It worked surprisingly well most of the time, but the final time she tried it in a cliff-face battle against a Large blue, the blue dragon put up with the slashes for a while then reached over with its claw (touch attack) grabbed her (grapple check) and then next round threw her off the cliff.

- Saph

Urthdigger
2009-02-23, 12:48 PM
Yeah, I don't think climbing a monster should be an easy feat by any means, especially if it can grab you (I can think of a few monsters where it may be possible to avoid that, none of them humanoid). I'll check out the "Races of War" as well.

So, anyone have any insight on the familiar question?