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PrismaticPIA
2009-02-22, 02:26 PM
No LA buyout, WotC sources only, 9th level, Assume I'm taking RSoP. DMM persist is allowed. Please give me a by-level list of spells I should be taking.

Go! ^.^

Flickerdart
2009-02-22, 02:32 PM
Is your DM letting you get full spellcasting progression, or not?

PrismaticPIA
2009-02-22, 02:42 PM
Is your DM letting you get full spellcasting progression, or not?

Yes, and full casting progression is important.

PrismaticPIA
2009-02-22, 03:59 PM
Bump. Any takers?

Douglas
2009-02-22, 05:19 PM
How many spells do you have the turn attempts to persist, and do you or your party have any means of applying Reach + Chain as well? Unless you have a truly absurd number of turn attempts I can give a list that will use them all, but after a certain point they start getting less useful and/or mostly redundant and it would be tedious having to note which ones should be dropped first.

Just for a few of the best 5th level and lower, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (5th), Recitation (4th), and Mass Lesser Vigor (3rd) are all very nice whole party buffs, and Divine Power (4th) and Righteous Might (5th) are great self-only buffs.

JeminiZero
2009-02-22, 08:24 PM
Maybe go with 8 Archivist / 1 Sacred Exorcist? Buff your party with Dark Knowledge, AND persist stuff from the Druid and Domain spell list as well? (Which includes good stuff like Haste from the celerity domain).

Spellwise, there is Elation (BoED p98) which gives a MORALE bonus to Str, Dex and movement, so it will stack with the other standard buffs.

Douglas
2009-02-22, 08:30 PM
I think his class selection is already set, he's just looking for spells.

Haste is not eligible for Persistent Spell because it does not have a fixed range.

Elation's on my list, but its bonuses are fairly low so it's not one of the top selections despite the unusual bonus type.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-22, 08:32 PM
Actually, I'd go DMM Chain rather than DMM Persist. Eats fewer Turn attempts, and is more useful in general.

Take the Protection feat, it grants Mind Blank as a domain spell, which is very handy later on.

In short, Reach Spell turns a spell with a range of Touch into a spell with a range of 30'. Since it now has a range greater than Touch, it can be Chained to a number of secondary targets, although if the spell does damage, it only does half damage.

Well, we're not really worried about damage when we are using this combo...

DMM Chain Spell Greater Magic Weapon. The whole party now has higher bonuses on all their equipment. They only need +1 of xyz, and don't need to blow cash on higher bonuses. This alone probably saves the party millions in gold.

Reach Spell DMM Chain Magic Vestments. Same as above, only with everyone's armor and shields.

(when you get higher level, DMM Chain Mind Blank works very well on protecting the whole party)

Keep in reserve:

Reach Spell DMM Chain Death Ward and Reach Spell DMM Chain Freedom of Movement for "keep the party from getting hit with a You Loose button" situations.

Magic Vestments and GMW are both hours/level duration, so you can reasonably anticipate it being effective all day long. Mind Blank is a flat 24 hour duration

PrismaticPIA
2009-02-23, 12:40 AM
How many spells do you have the turn attempts to persist, and do you or your party have any means of applying Reach + Chain as well? Unless you have a truly absurd number of turn attempts I can give a list that will use them all, but after a certain point they start getting less useful and/or mostly redundant and it would be tedious having to note which ones should be dropped first.

Just for a few of the best 5th level and lower, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (5th), Recitation (4th), and Mass Lesser Vigor (3rd) are all very nice whole party buffs, and Divine Power (4th) and Righteous Might (5th) are great self-only buffs.

With feats, nightsticks, and RSoP, I'll have 38 charges, technically. I might have as many as 58 if my DM allows some foray into the shadier areas of WotC, but I'm not counting on it. I found a feat in PHB 2 which allows you to change the range of a spell from touch to close by spending a turning charge. If I'm right, I can get around the need for Reach Spell by spending a couple charges and 10 minutes per party member setting a 'ward'.

My current feat selection looks like this:

Divine Ward(PHB2)
Extra Turning
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Chain Spell
DMM Persist
DMM Chain

I agree using multiple DMM really drains my charges. I'm kinda set on RSoP, so Sun and Healing will have to be my domains. Quicken/DMM Quicken instead of Persist/DMM Persist would free up a feat and maybe be more efficient...and a little less cheesy, so I'll consider that. Thanks for the spell list btw.

Keep it coming.

Keld Denar
2009-02-23, 03:16 AM
Technically, as a RSoP, you only have to take the Sun domain. You have 3 crappy class features that only work off your domain slots (only 6 of 9 can actually be empowered/maximized). Unless you use the PHBII Spontanous Domain Alt Class Feature you spontaneously cast your Healing domain spells, which is sketchy at best for legality, then you should probably not even take the Healing domain. There are much better domains out there. Also, RSoP past level 5 is dead. Multiclass into Sacred Exorcist at level 12 for fun and profit. It continues your turning AND casting and gives you a few neato abilities like a permanent Consecrate that follows you around.

Also, how in the 9 hells are you getting that many turn undead attempts? Holy crap.

Personally, I like the feat Divine Spell Power on my caster clerics. The difference in CL can be really useful when casting buffs like GMW that have staged effects based on CL. The difference between giving your whole party a +4 GMW and a +5 GMW (and Magic Vest and other spells) is well worth a feat and a few TU attempts.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-23, 04:00 AM
With feats, nightsticks, and RSoP, I'll have 38 charges, technically. I might have as many as 58 if my DM allows some foray into the shadier areas of WotC, but I'm not counting on it.

If you're counting Extra Greater Turning, then you're mistaken in how many you have. You have X turn undead attempts with which to fuel DMM or to actually turn undead, of those Y can be Greater Turnings instead of normal turnings. With just the Sun domain Y=1, it is not an additional turn undead attempt, it is simply a separate mode for a normal turn undead attempt. RSoP makes Y=3+Cha mod, which is still a separate mode for normal turn undead attempts, not additional attempts that can be used to fuel DMM.

PrismaticPIA
2009-02-23, 01:36 PM
If you're counting Extra Greater Turning, then you're mistaken in how many you have. You have X turn undead attempts with which to fuel DMM or to actually turn undead, of those Y can be Greater Turnings instead of normal turnings. With just the Sun domain Y=1, it is not an additional turn undead attempt, it is simply a separate mode for a normal turn undead attempt. RSoP makes Y=3+Cha mod, which is still a separate mode for normal turn undead attempts, not additional attempts that can be used to fuel DMM.

Ahhhh.....You are correct. I misread that. In that case, perhaps I should hold off on DMM Persist tactics until I can afford more night sticks.

Maybe Cleric 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ RSoP 2? That way I'll get full armor evasion and still have access to Empower Healing. I was taking the PHB2 Spontaneous Domain variant so any spell I have can be a domain healing spell. If that is too sketchy, I can take the Domain Spontaneity feat which does the same thing.

Archivist would give me access to all the nifty domains, but would kill my ability to turn things. It's interesting, and I think I'll consider it for future characters, but I think it's too big a deviation for the character I'm making now.

Thank you for all the feedback thus far. Keep it coming ^.^

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-23, 02:14 PM
Persist is overrated for what you are trying to accomplish.

Persist is good for making a personal CoDzilla, but lacks oomph for party buffer. Specifically, most of the spells you are wanting to buff your party with have a duration of Hours/Level, which means even at level 9, is pretty much all day long. If you are worried about it, simply Extend it and you have it for 18 hours, more than enough. Extend is only a +1, not enough to need to DMM it.

Chain is better, it lets you blow turn attempts to turn any spell into a 'mass' version of that spell.

The PhB II variant for the Healing Domain is standard tactics, I'd allow it as a GM, as you are basically blowing a domain to improve a class ability. It also allows for spontaneous Heal spells, which is very nifty.

You can also use Chain DMM to Chain Reach Heal when you get the appropriate level of spell. Technically, by the definition of Chain Spell, only DAMAGE is halved on secondary targets, it says nothing about healing. So here's a heal on the whole party for a 6th level spell slot.

Keld Denar
2009-02-23, 02:22 PM
Both the ACF and the feat are sketchy. The big shady area is the definition of a domain spell. What consitutes as a domain spell. Is it a spell on your domain spell list? Or a spell cast from a domain spell slot? Or some combination of the 2?

The way I see it, is that a domain spell slot is completely different from a normal slot, similar to how a character with 2 different spellcasting classes has different spellcasting slots for each. A domain spell slot can ONLY be filled by a spell on your domain spell list, and it can NOT be converted spontaneously for a cure (or anything else). It is completely independant of your normal cleric spellcasting. Even if you memorize a domain spell in your normal cleric slots (if you are able), its still not a domain spell any more than Magic Weapon is an arcane spell for you, even though its on the wizard spell list. Thus, if you spontaneously convert a prepared spell to a spell on your domain list by either means, its still not a domain spell. It never was, and never will be. Its a cleric spell that happens to be the same spell as a spell on your domain list.

Thats why I believe that RSoP + spontaneous domain casting doesn't work by RAW. Now, would it be OP? No. Healing is generally a suboptimal strategy, especially at higher levels. If you pigeonhole yourself into the healer role, you are gonna fall woefully short in time. But, just because it can be fixed, doesn't mean its right.

(I use similar logic to denounce Shadow Miracles, being that domain spells gained via Arcane Discipe are only part of YOUR spell list, not THE wiz/sorc spell list as presented in the books and explicitly called out in the Shadow Illusion class feature of a Shadowcraft Mage)

PrismaticPIA
2009-02-23, 03:10 PM
Both the ACF and the feat are sketchy. The big shady area is the definition of a domain spell. What consitutes as a domain spell. Is it a spell on your domain spell list? Or a spell cast from a domain spell slot? Or some combination of the 2?

The way I see it, is that a domain spell slot is completely different from a normal slot, similar to how a character with 2 different spellcasting classes has different spellcasting slots for each. A domain spell slot can ONLY be filled by a spell on your domain spell list, and it can NOT be converted spontaneously for a cure (or anything else). It is completely independant of your normal cleric spellcasting. Even if you memorize a domain spell in your normal cleric slots (if you are able), its still not a domain spell any more than Magic Weapon is an arcane spell for you, even though its on the wizard spell list. Thus, if you spontaneously convert a prepared spell to a spell on your domain list by either means, its still not a domain spell. It never was, and never will be. Its a cleric spell that happens to be the same spell as a spell on your domain list.

Thats why I believe that RSoP + spontaneous domain casting doesn't work by RAW. Now, would it be OP? No. Healing is generally a suboptimal strategy, especially at higher levels. If you pigeonhole yourself into the healer role, you are gonna fall woefully short in time. But, just because it can be fixed, doesn't mean its right.

(I use similar logic to denounce Shadow Miracles, being that domain spells gained via Arcane Discipe are only part of YOUR spell list, not THE wiz/sorc spell list as presented in the books and explicitly called out in the Shadow Illusion class feature of a Shadowcraft Mage)

That's a pretty hard-line definition to what constitutes a domain spell. I happen to disagree, and my DM will too. And while I agree that healing becomes less important at higher levels, I argue that the rate this table level makes planning for epic a lower priority (My DM rules that in addition to gaining experience, a character must spend one week/level training in-game to reach the next level).