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AgentPaper
2009-02-22, 03:34 PM
I know there's a way to do it, but I don't know what it is, or even what to search for. Sorry if this is a simple question, but what feats and such can I use to allow sneak attack and critical damage against things like undead and constructs?

My class is a homebrew one that gets 1d4 SA damage per level, and can crit with it. This is pretty much my main schtick, without it I'm pretty much useless. I haven't run into a creature this wouldn't work on yet, but I doubt it will be long. I've just turned level 6, so it'd be nice if I could get something for this as my level 6 feat. Race is whisper gnome if that matters, and a quirk of this class is that I can't multiclass at all, so no 1 level dips for a class feature, either.

Eldariel
2009-02-22, 03:36 PM
Rogue has an alternative class feature on level 3 called Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) that allows ½ SA to normally immune creatures when flanking. Trades away Trap Sense.

Other than that, your best bet are spells and items; Golembane, and the other Bane-spells allow you to SA one critical-immune creature type. Then there're the Crystals for each type in Magic Item Compendium.

RebelRogue
2009-02-22, 03:38 PM
The easiest way to get around it is spells. IIRC the Feat(s) that makes you Sneak Attack creatures otherwise immune also requires them to be your favored enemy. It's been a long time since I last looked into it, though.

AgentPaper
2009-02-22, 04:23 PM
Hmm, guess I'll bring this up with the DM, since it's his homebrew class, see if I can get something like being able to spend a Ki point to use my SA and critical attacks against immune creatures. Otherwise, I'll look at those crystals, and probably end up just having wands and such so I can UMD in battles where SA isn't useful.

And I realize I didn't mention that I have Ki point in this class. There any special feats or such that use that to do stuff like this? Otherwise, what are some of the more common immune creature types? Should I just get a crystal of undead-bane and golem-bane?

Darrin
2009-02-22, 11:43 PM
There any special feats or such that use that to do stuff like this? Otherwise, what are some of the more common immune creature types? Should I just get a crystal of undead-bane and golem-bane?

There is a better way. Requires two feats: Dragontouched and Dragonfire Strike (from Dragon Magic). You can also pick up Dragontouched with a 1-level dip into Dragonfire Adept, useful if you don't have Cha 13. This converts your sneak attack damage into energy damage (default is Fire, but you can switch it to something less common like Force or Sonic by picking up Draconic Heritage).

As energy damage, this works normally against most constructs, plants, and undead when you flank them. However, elementals and oozes can't be flanked, so you'll have to deny their dex bonus somehow to qualify for the extra damage. Easiest way to do that is to get someone else to grapple them... if no one will volunteer, buy a few mules and train them the Pin trick.

Draz74
2009-02-23, 12:09 AM
There is a better way. Requires two feats: Dragontouched and Dragonfire Strike (from Dragon Magic). You can also pick up Dragontouched with a 1-level dip into Dragonfire Adept, useful if you don't have Cha 13. This converts your sneak attack damage into energy damage (default is Fire, but you can switch it to something less common like Force or Sonic by picking up Draconic Heritage).

As energy damage, this works normally against most constructs, plants, and undead when you flank them. However, elementals and oozes can't be flanked, so you'll have to deny their dex bonus somehow to qualify for the extra damage. Easiest way to do that is to get someone else to grapple them... if no one will volunteer, buy a few mules and train them the Pin trick.

Three feats is a HUGE investment (and if you read the OP, no, he can't dip DFA). I'd say stick with the Truedeath and Demolition Crystals, and just hope you don't run into too many plants, oozes, and elementals.

Unless the DM allows you to homebrew some equivalent to Penetrating Strike, of course. That's the ideal.

The Crystals option will cost you 16k gold, after all, per weapon. Yikes.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-23, 01:44 AM
There's also the Death's Ruin alternative class feature (Complete Champion) where you trade trap sense to do 1/2 sneak attack damage against undead. This isn't as broad as Penetrating Strike, but Death's Ruin works on all types of sneak attack while Penetrating Strike is limited to flanking only.

lsfreak
2009-02-23, 02:08 AM
From Complete Adventurer, clerics/paladins get a 1st-level spell that lets you hit undead for one round, and sorcerers/wizards one for golems. You'd need scrolls or the like to do it, and that eats up a standard action, but depending on exactly how dependent you are it might be worth it. You might be able to talk your DM into using those as a basis for weapon crystals rather than disintegrate and consecrate as the base spells, but I'm too rusty on magic item creation to know how much cheaper that would be (also note that you can only have one weapon crystal per weapon).
EDIT: Oh, and you need +3 weapons in order to attach the crystals that let you sneak attack golems/undead, which is rather problematic early on.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-23, 02:55 AM
From Complete Adventurer, clerics/paladins get a 1st-level spell that lets you hit undead for one round, and sorcerers/wizards one for golems. Both Grave Strike and Golem Strike have their most current version in Spell Compendium.

Brock Samson
2009-03-06, 07:13 AM
It's pretty simple, 2 feats. First, take Power Attack. Second, there is a feat (I think in either Dragon Compendium or Draconomicon, should be in the crystalkeep) that allows you to trade xd6's worth of sneak attack bonus dice for a +2 to hit per d6 sacrificed. Make sure you're using a 2-handed weapon and Power Attack accordingly. Even if you only use a 1-handed you'll still get a +2 damage for what would've been 1d6 sneak attack, 2-handed you'll get +4 damage, even better than an average actually sneak attack roll. They're immune to the extra damage of a sneak attack because they lack vital organs, but the feat is about improved precision when attacking, perfectly lent to Power Attacking. Plus, say you've got 10d6 sneak attack, maybe you encounter someone who's NOT immune to sneak attacks but has a high AC, trade 5d6 for a +10 to hit, per attack, and still get 5d6 left to sneak attack on. For example.

Swooper
2009-03-06, 07:37 AM
Both Grave Strike and Golem Strike have their most current version in Spell Compendium.
There's also one for plants. Vine Strike if I'm not mistaken? I don't think they come in elemental or ooze flavour, though.

Sadly, wands of these spells are completely useless since they only last one round, and wands take a standard action to activate, so you can't actually attack anything while the spell lasts. Unless you can get them to provoke an AoO that qualifies for SA, of course.

Since you're using a homebrew class and can't take the Precision Strike ACF, your best bet short of massive feat investment is probably to work something out with your DM.

Fjolnir
2009-03-06, 07:38 AM
In the Xcrawl guild source book there was a rogue specific PrC that every level gave SA progression, AND every other level gave you a list in which you could choose a type of creature that was NOT immune to your SA's due to your rediculous training

Curmudgeon
2009-03-06, 10:31 AM
Sadly, wands of these spells are completely useless since they only last one round, and wands take a standard action to activate, so you can't actually attack anything while the spell lasts.
Actually, that's one of the rule changes introduced in Rules Compendium (which was supposed to be just a collection of existing rules, but didn't turn out that way):
Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item stores, but activating the item doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. You should note that you can get wands with metamagic effects pre-applied (as long as the spell level stays 4 or lower), so a wand of Extended Grave Strike is perfectly legitimate. Nice to have two rounds of full attacks with sneak damage.

Person_Man
2009-03-06, 10:56 AM
I'm with Darrin on this. Dragontouched + Dragonfire Strike for energy damage is the most reliable way to go. Take flaws if you need to.

Otherwise, invest in UMD or Arcane Schooling (feat from Races of Faerun) and buy scrolls of Grave Strike, Vine Strike, and Golem Strike. That will suffice for most enemies. But that won't help you against oozes and enemies with Fortification.

It's also helpful to find stategies that have nothing to do with Sneak Attack. This is particularly important at ECL 6ish, when you don't have a lot of class abilities, and cheap equipment is still useful. Nets, tanglefoot bags, alchemical items, traps, etc. And you can always use Skills in unconventional ways - Diplomacy to talk your way out of a fight, Sleight of Hand to steal the caster's spell component pouch or holy symbol, Disguise and Bluff and Forgery to get enemies to work for you, Handle Animal to train animals or a magical beast to fight with you, etc. A canny DM will always seek to mix things up in order to challenge the party, so do your best to be creative.

Bugbeartrap
2009-03-06, 02:02 PM
Well, theres always Deathstrike Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium. I'm away from books so I don't know the price, but its not too expensive for 3/day sneak attack a creature that is normally immune.


Edit: Hold on, its 5,000 gp and the effect works all round. Sucka Punch!

Brock Samson
2009-03-09, 04:28 AM
Did anybody notice my post? Would that not be the most reliable way to make Sneak Attack work for you on creatures normally immune, plus providing other benefits as well? Costs 2 feats, no gold, and will work every time you'd otherwise be able to sneak attack.

jcsw
2009-03-09, 04:55 AM
I'm with Darrin on this. Dragontouched + Dragonfire Strike for energy damage is the most reliable way to go. Take flaws if you need to.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. Just because the weapon damage has become fire damage doesn't mean it's not precision damage.

CthulhuM
2009-03-09, 06:01 AM
Yeah, the feat specifically says it functions "When you gain extra damage from sneak attack." You don't gain extra damage from sneak attack if what you're attacking is immune to it. Arguing that you do is basically saying "This attack could potentially have done sneak attack damage if conditions were different," and that logic could apply to any attack you make. If the feat was intended to allow sneak attacks on immune creatures, I think it would have made it clear that it did so, rather than sortof maybe implying it.


Did anybody notice my post? Would that not be the most reliable way to make Sneak Attack work for you on creatures normally immune, plus providing other benefits as well? Costs 2 feats, no gold, and will work every time you'd otherwise be able to sneak attack.

I at least have never seen that ambush feat you mentioned. Any chance you could supply a source on that? It seems kinda overpowered, frankly.

Darrin
2009-03-09, 07:46 AM
I'm pretty sure this doesn't work. Just because the weapon damage has become fire damage doesn't mean it's not precision damage.

Under such an interpreation, Dragonfire Strike would become almost completely useless. If the creature you're attacking is already vulnerable to sneak attack damage, then there'd be no reason to change it to fire damage.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-09, 08:50 AM
Under such an interpreation, Dragonfire Strike would become almost completely useless. If the creature you're attacking is already vulnerable to sneak attack damage, then there'd be no reason to change it to fire damage.Or if the enemy has the Cold Subtype or something. Or if you were already Draconic, so you only had to spend one feat on the flavor.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-09, 09:24 AM
Rogue has an alternative class feature on level 3 called Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) that allows ½ SA to normally immune creatures when flanking. Trades away Trap Sense.



I recommend this. For the rogue player of my current campaing, solved a lot of problems. Remember that some creature can be inmmune to flanking anyway.

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 09:29 AM
I recommend this. For the rogue player of my current campaing, solved a lot of problems. Remember that some creature can be inmmune to flanking anyway.

Darkstalker gets around that pretty much always though. The combination of the two feats pretty much ensures you being able to Sneak things

jcsw
2009-03-09, 10:05 AM
Under such an interpreation, Dragonfire Strike would become almost completely useless. If the creature you're attacking is already vulnerable to sneak attack damage, then there'd be no reason to change it to fire damage.

It still gives +1d6 damage. Also if you had the feats to spend you could get silly things like force damage sneak attacks.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-09, 10:33 AM
Darkstalker gets around that pretty much always though. The combination of the two feats pretty much ensures you being able to Sneak things

The one from LoM? Prereqs? Isn't it against blindsighted creatures, IIRC?

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-09, 10:42 AM
And I realize I didn't mention that I have Ki point in this class. There any special feats or such that use that to do stuff like this? Otherwise, what are some of the more common immune creature types? Should I just get a crystal of undead-bane and golem-bane?

In dragon magazine there are Ki points feats for ninjas. They don't seem to me so good, but maybe there is some good for you.

IIRC, Ki smite allow you to expend a ki point and deal additional damage equal to you level + your remaing ki points.

Maybe you can use it as a base for homebrew.

Eldariel
2009-03-09, 10:52 AM
The one from LoM? Prereqs? Isn't it against blindsighted creatures, IIRC?

It doesn't have prerequisites. It basically means that "Special senses are useless against you." Creatures with Scent/Tremorsense/Blindsense/Blindsight have to make Listen/Spot vs. your Hide/Move Silently just like everyone, and you can flank creatures with all-around vision (in my experience the most common reason for being unable to flank something). It does leave Oozes though. Those things are so annoying for Rogues.