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Atsu333
2009-02-22, 03:49 PM
I'm trying to create a monstrous humanoid or goblinoid with crazy AC.
So far I'm between a Centaur and Minotaur as the race, I know it will have Vow of Poverty(giving more AC and stats) and I'm thinking of taking Dragon Disciple(nat. armor bonus, wings, more stats, and breath weapon)

I might have to throw some monk in there for flurry and wis bonus on AC. Overall, it's going to be a lvl 20 build(Using it for arena http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5805481&posted=1#post5805481)

What do you guys think? What can I do better?

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-22, 03:56 PM
I'm trying to create a monstrous humanoid or goblinoid with crazy AC.
So far I'm between a Centaur and Minotaur as the race, I know it will have Vow of Poverty(giving more AC and stats) and I'm thinking of taking Dragon Disciple(nat. armor bonus, wings, more stats, and breath weapon)

I might have to throw some monk in there for flurry and wis bonus on AC.

What do you guys think? What can I do better?

The Sword Sage Unarmed Variant is also a good candidate. It loses fast movement but it gains maneuvers. There are plenty of counters that can make you a huge pain in the ass to kill. Plus, Pouncing Mongoose gives you more swings which is always nice.

Eldariel
2009-02-22, 04:07 PM
The trick to AC maxing is stacking a single stat many times to AC. Con is easy for this, and you naturally get Dex. Cha, Wis and Int can all also be acquired in a variety of ways, but they probably aren't that high for most Monstrous Humanoids, save mayhap Wis.

You could get:
-Fist of the Forests (Con to AC)
-Monk/Unarmed Swordsage/Whatever (Wis to AC)
-Stoneblessed > Deepwarden (Con instead of Dex to AC)

Con/Wis/Dex seems like the easiest setup for a Centaur. Vow of Povery is a possibility, but unfortunately a tad sucky; you can get better with your cash. Spellcasting classes and Wildshape obviously get the best AC, but without it, you can acquire decent stats. Magic items are the next best thing.

Do note that things like Defensive Fighting really help with the AC; a Dervish (not necessarily TWF; you can be a Power Attack Dervish just fine) gets Elaborate Parry on 7, which adds 7 to your AC when fighting defensively, giving you something ridiculous with Tumble-ranks like +11 for -4, and way, way more with Total Defense (which you can maintain always out of combat).

Alleine
2009-02-22, 04:31 PM
Being level 20 gains you access to massive mounds of cash, which can either be carted in front of you to provide armor, you could trade it in for boosts to armor. Natural armor is a wonderful thing, and ridiculously easy to get. I'm not 100% clear on the exact rules, but wording suggests things.

There are two grafts in the Fiend Folio that each state they increase the bonus, by +4 and +3 respectively. Not sure if I'm correct in this, but those sound like they could stack. There is also the half-golem template that can be applied for a tidy sum of cash, but I believe that replaces your Natural Armor with the new score. The only problem is you have to make a will save or go insane.

Eldariel nailed it on the head though. Cheapest and most widely used(to my knowledge) method for gaining natural armor is through classes that give X ability bonus to AC. If you go that way then there's this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread that should be useful to you. Gives a listing of most types of bonuses that you can get from a stat.

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 06:29 PM
Its been said before, but I'll say it again. VoP is BAD. VERY BAD. One might even say its a pitfall of sorts, disguised to give the illusion of safety, but really intended to cripple or impede you. Aww hell, lets not beat around the bush...ITS A TRAP!

Check out the things you get. +8 to one stat. While thats 2 points higher than you'd get with an item, its also only to 1 stat. With items, you could get a +6 to 2 stats, or 3 stats, or all 6 stats! You also get an Enhancement bonus to hit. Easily replicated by a 3rd level wizard or 4th level cleric spell. Totally not worth it. And NA, well, considering AC is only one of the minor things you get from armor (better things like Fortitude, resistances, Death Ward, etc). Plus, you can get the NA from items as well, if you really wanted it.

What you lose out on is immense. Freedom of Movement, Flight, Teleportation items, mobility enhancers, protections from various bad things, and a host of other things I can't think of atm.

Its just VERY BAD. Heed the words of the wise Admiral.

Also, AC is generally the worst form of protection. You'd be bette off making yourself unreachable, or gain some form of miss chance or such.

Best thing you could do in this situation would be to play some type of caster blend. A fighter/mage "gish" character would fit more with your origional design, while a rogue/mage type character would be very difficult to locate and kill, all the while you are kickin ass from afar.

Atsu333
2009-02-22, 08:01 PM
Check out the things you get. +8 to one stat. While thats 2 points higher than you'd get with an item, its also only to 1 stat. With items, you could get a +6 to 2 stats, or 3 stats, or all 6 stats! You also get an Enhancement bonus to hit. Easily replicated by a 3rd level wizard or 4th level cleric spell. Totally not worth it. And NA, well, considering AC is only one of the minor things you get from armor (better things like Fortitude, resistances, Death Ward, etc). Plus, you can get the NA from items as well, if you really wanted it.

What you lose out on is immense. Freedom of Movement, Flight, Teleportation items, mobility enhancers, protections from various bad things, and a host of other things I can't think of atm.

Also, AC is generally the worst form of protection. You'd be bette off making yourself unreachable, or gain some form of miss chance or such.


well I have to point out a couple things, though I am now considering the rogue... The ability boosts would give me +8 to one, +6 to one, +4 to one, and +2 to one, and the AC bonuses outnumber what I could get from items.

I never really use the special ability items too much, especially since this is for an arena, and staying out of reach is impossible for my highest goal for this character. Which is defeating RavKal's druid(He says he's going to be able to be an elemental with a T-rex companion, and summon an elemental and another T-rex, all huge.)

AmberVael
2009-02-22, 08:21 PM
...and the AC bonuses outnumber what I could get from items.

AC bonus +10
Deflection +3
Natural Armor +2

That's your level 20 bonus from VoP
...

Ring of Force Shield (+2)
Ring of Deflection +3
Gloves of Dexterity +2
Bracers of Armor +6
Amulet of Natural Armor +3

94,500 gp.

And that's not including that you could, you know, buy real armor or get better bonuses elsewhere from other books and the like (or a monk's belt). Those are just straight up core armor boosting items off of the top of my head.
You still have plenty of gold to spare after that, too, which will more than make up for all the other things Vow of Poverty has to offer.

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 08:38 PM
If hes really gonna do the whole druid thing, you are gonna need more than AC. If I was him, I'd WS into a Huge Air Elemental and force you to start making reflex saves or be totally boned. His DC is gonna be incredible. You need something to counter of appropriate power.

Now, you've got to ask yourself, do you want to lose this? Or do you want to have a shot to win? Winning requires using the resources available to you, and not cutting off your right foot by taking VoP. Trust me, and the boards, we wouldn't lie to you about VoP. Its BAD.

So, you like the rogue idea, I'd recommend:
Rogue1/FocusedSpecialistConjourer4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5

Take Darkstalker and keep your Hide/MS maxed out. Cast Ebon Eyes and surround yourself with Deeper Darkness (continuous item if possible). You'll be pretty close to completely undetectable since your deception will be a combination of magical and mundane which is very hard to defeat. Persist Hunter's Eye (Spell Compendium) to get a bunch of extra SA dice, then use Death Strike Bracers (MIC) to bypass his elementally immunity to Sneak Attack. Hit him with an Empowered Orb of Acid or similar, and stack on all those extra dice. You'll be able to kill him at your leasure at that point, since nothing he can do will be able to locate you.

Abstruse
2009-02-22, 09:04 PM
So, you like the rogue idea, I'd recommend:
Rogue1/FocusedSpecialistConjourer4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5

Take Darkstalker and keep your Hide/MS maxed out. Cast Ebon Eyes and surround yourself with Deeper Darkness (continuous item if possible). You'll be pretty close to completely undetectable since your deception will be a combination of magical and mundane which is very hard to defeat. Persist Hunter's Eye (Spell Compendium) to get a bunch of extra SA dice, then use Death Strike Bracers (MIC) to bypass his elementally immunity to Sneak Attack. Hit him with an Empowered Orb of Acid or similar, and stack on all those extra dice. You'll be able to kill him at your leisure at that point, since nothing he can do will be able to locate you.

What spell is that, from the Compendium? I went to look it up, and there's nothing even remotely by that name. Deeper Darkness isn't a bad thought, but it is a clerical spell, so it'd have to be a continuous item rather than a wand (which, short of plenty of UMD, might not work under stressful situations). Besides which, if the arena is big enough, what's to stop your opponent from falling back a bit after the first acid barrage?

Sure, Darkstalker would most likely prevent him from spotting your precise location. But spells like murderous mist (SpC/145; hard to sneak attack if you're blind), entangle, and the like don't require a precise location -- just a general one. Short of that, there's always a druidic dispel magic, since your effective caster level will suck because of all those level-downs from Unseen Seer. And if the darkness moves with you... congratulations, you just made your precise location pretty obvious.

However, the base point stands -- don't take Vow of Poverty. You can accomplish far more without it than with.

Keld Denar
2009-02-22, 09:19 PM
UMD is a class skill for your first level of Rogue. If you take the Able Learner feat at 1, you'd be able to keep it maxed out throughout your whole carreer. With Int focus, and USS's 6 SP per level, you should have no trouble keeping that, Hide, Move Silent, Tumble, Slight of Hand, and a few others maxed out.

And an USS typically has a BETTER CL than a standard wizard. Taking Practiced Spellcaster (duh...) negates the 3 losses from USS, and the 1 lost to rogue. That means for most spells, you'll have a CL of 20, and for Divinations, you'll have a CL of 23 at level 20.

A quick Google search proves that Ebon Eyes is in Spell Compendium. I'd suggest looking again or I'll post a page number in about an hour when I get back to my books.

And yea, Acid Orb is a great threat, but he also casts 19/20 as a wizard. He's still got Time Stop, Shapechange, Teleport, and all those other goodies that make wizards sooooooo good. I just recommended the Orb because its practically unresistable, delivers SA, and has a 2ndary status effect. You could kill him with Magic Missiles if you were patient enough and difficult enough to pin down.

If you want to go all out, there is a 4th level Blackguard spell from Heros of Battle that is a darkness spell for the entire battlefield. You could get a scroll of that or some such and really rig the battlefield in your favor.

arguskos
2009-02-22, 09:37 PM
Ebon Eyes is on pg 77 of the Spell Compendium. :smallcool:

only1doug
2009-02-23, 05:41 AM
Persist Hunter's Eye (Spell Compendium) to get a bunch of extra SA dice, then use Death Strike Bracers (MIC) to bypass his elementally immunity to Sneak Attack.

What spell is that, from the Compendium? I went to look it up, and there's nothing even remotely by that name.

Hunters Eye is PHII pg114-115.
ranger 2, duration 1 round, 1d6 sneak attack/3 caster levels, stacks with existing sneak attack.

Person_Man
2009-02-23, 10:30 AM
I'm a big fan of Inertial Armor (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm). It scales very well (goes up to +14 AC, which you can get at ECL 17 with Overchannel. You only need 13 levels of a psionic class with Practiced Manifester), and counts for touch AC. It also saves you a bunch of money, which you can then spend on a powerful animated shield, amulet of natural armor, etc.

And then there's the Divine Shield feat from Complete Warrior, which lets you burn a turn undead use add your Cha bonus to your shield bonus for 1/2 character level rounds.

Eldariel already posted the crux of my Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588) build - Fist of the Forest + Deepwarden. It actually works best with Totemist mixed in, as they have a bunch of Con based abilities. Something like Dwarf Monk 2/Totemist 4/Fist of the Forest 2/Deepwarden 2.

Anywho, remember that the key to good defense is to have multiple defenses - AC, Saves, Miss Chance, healing, DR, temporary hit points, Evasion, Mettle, Tumble, SR, battlefield control, Dimension Door, etc. Don't bother trying to optimize just AC or just Saves or whatnot, as your DM can always target you where you're weak.

wadledo
2009-02-23, 10:36 AM
Totemists are like peanut butter, everything is better with a little mixed in.