Star Wars Fans: Come See The Heresy!

[afroakuma]

Heresy Alert!!!

I was watching A New Hope again the other day, when all of a sudden a thought so chilling, so wrong, so sacreligious came to me that I knew I had to have my sin purged by the benevolent light of answers.

Assuming this is 1977, and the first movie exists in a vacuum, devoid of EU, sequels, prequels or the Star Wars Holiday Special, what in fact is Vader's narrative function?

Consider:

• He is depicted as a specialist of a weapon the hero owns but never uses in combat.

• He is depicted as a right-hand man, not the Big Bad.

• He wields his dramatic magical power all of once, and only against a fellow Imperial. For that matter, so does Obi-wan.

• He doesn't actually confront or even really notice the heroes in the Death Star, and apart from Leia, doesn't even know their names.

• His interaction with Leia could have been filled by any ranking officer, or even Tarkin himself.

• After making Obi-wan vanish, the sum of his response to this extremely unusual happening is to trod on his robe a few times, then stalk off, then stalk back, have the doors cut him off from whatever he was about to do, and not express the slightest concern that Obi-wan may have pulled a fast one.

• Despite being set up to fight Luke (for having killed his father), Luke never actually encounters him.

• In the end sequence, he randomly shows up as the ace enemy pilot, which is not brought up earlier and seems fairly improbable given how utterly breakable TIE fighters are shown to be.

• Also in the end sequence, due to the trench setup he can't be attacked or even faced by Luke; rather, Luke simply has to evade Faceless Tenacious TIE #27.

• While closing on Luke, he falls prey to the same tactic he was using, which is obviously a dangerous enough proposition that he should have had some cleverer, more on-the-ball reaction than "WHAT???"

Someone please purge the sacrilege from my mind, with good, comforting answers. :smallfrown:

[TheBST]

Heresy Alert!!!
Someone please purge the sacrilege from my mind, with good, comforting answers. :smallfrown:

George Lucas

is not

a good writer.

[An Enemy Spy]

He's flipping awesome. Sacrilage purged.

[Rogue 7]

He's a big, dark evil guy. He's there to be scary and menacing. And I think he pulls it off pretty good. Not deep, but scary.

[rankrath]

wasn't the "New Hope" written with the sequels in mind?

[Rutskarn]

Darth Vader in A New Hope is there to be menacing. He represents a force of evil, overseeing the conflict without really directly interfering.

His presence as a waiting, brooding observer is there to make his actual actions all the more dramatic.

Consider the point in ESB where he confronts Han, Leia, Chewie and Lando on Cloud City. Previously, except for his interactions with Leia, Darth Vader had operated on a separate wavelength from everyone else. He was peripheral to the heroes, conducting events but not actually getting down to their level. When on Cloud City, they open a door and BAM, he's there, it's that much more terrifying.

It's like only seeing glimpses of zombies on security monitors and news programs, and then suddenly turning a corner and being face to face with one.

[Raroy]

wasn't the "New Hope" written with the sequels in mind?

Yes it was.

Stop over analyzing it, you have nothing to fear. This isn't high school literature class.

[afroakuma]

That is a full evasion. No evading: fix the sacrilege!

[thegurullamen]

George Lucas is not a good writer.

This times a thousand, but for ANH, Lucas had the benefit of criticism. (He wasn't so full of himself by this point that he actually made changes to the script because other people told him it sucked and he listened.)

Anyway, Vader's role in ANH is to stand as a representation of the evil Empire which we also never see outside of the Death Star. He is their face. Without him, the idea of this big menacing Empire would fall apart the moment the torpedoes went down the shaft and blew the not-a-moon sky high. That he survives at the end shows us how bad ass the Empire will continue to be, even without their uber-cool toy.

As for inferred abilities like his prowess with a lightsaber, just think of Boba Fett. He never used half of the things he wore in TESB, but the fact that he had them on him at all times spoke a lot about his character. Enough so that he was hailed as one of the coolest things in the trilogy even before ROTJ came out.

A lot of the other traits you've presented--incompetence in the trench, ignorance of the main characters--might be characterizations of the Empire as a whole. Arrogant, far removed from the basic elements of life, inefficient, uncreative and outright stupid (sometimes). Since Lucas only had this one film guaranteed to him at the time, he probably wanted to force as much of the Empire's personality onto the screen as he could and Vader just happened to be the perfect AWESOME MONSTER mouthpiece for it. This is all just speculation on my part, but it makes a certain amount of sense.

Did that help exorcise the demons?

[Raroy]

If your stubborn about it, you can look for an answer through the documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGo7kYQC_mU

I'm too lazy to look through it myself, the answer is in there.

[afroakuma]

No, it didn't, because the argument hinges on Vader being sheer awesome in ANH, which the sacrilege tells me he wasn't. I mean, he wasn't often on screen, was clearly subordinate to the guy who ordered someone to blow up a planet, only whipped out his "sorcerer's ways" to peevishly discomfort a bureaucrat, and dressed like a high-ranking stormtrooper instead of a member of the actual command structure. Tarkin was pretty definitively the face and mouthpiece of the empire; Vader was Ubiquitous Grunt #1. Need a lightsaber-er? Vader. Need an "agressive negotiator?" Vader. TIE commander? Vader. Interrogations officer? Vader. Liaison between the white-armored troops and the greencap COs? Vader.

And it's not about being "stubborn," the question was stated: given a viewing of it in 1977, when this information would not have been available, what is Darth Vader's role really about?

[leafman]

The emperor never made an appearence in A New Hope, so Vader served as the big bad guy. He made us more fearful of his master that he had refered to several times because if Vader can kill people without touching them and dispatch the teacher of our hero, then how much more powerful is his master?

The reason Vader was surprised about getting attacked from behind was that there weren't supposed to be any more rebel fighters to be able to flank him.

Other than that Vader's appearence in the movie was to kill off Obi-wan and introduce him as a major threat for the later films so we didn't waste time setting him up and convincing the veiwer that he was powerful in ESB only to kill him off in RotJ.

[afroakuma]

The emperor never made an appearence in A New Hope, so Vader served as the big bad guy.

Tarkin was the Big Bad. Tarkin was "holding Vader's leash." Tarkin could tell the black-armored sorcerer to stop killing someone and he would do it. Tarkin ordered the "demonstration" on Alderaan.


He made us more fearful of his master that he had refered to several times

Does Vader even mention the Emperor in ANH? Tarkin does, once, that I can recall, but that's it.


because if Vader can kill people without touching them

Not actually depicted. It looked like extreme discomfort, acted like extreme discomfort...


and dispatch the teacher of our hero

who had just finished saying, "Yes, do it. Play right into my hands. Here, I'll help you by giving you this ridiculously obvious opening."


then how much more powerful is his master?

Considering at the time that Tarkin displayed no lightsaber and no sorcery, there was no reason in ANH to conjecture that the Emperor was anything more than the top bureaucrat.


The reason Vader was surprised about getting attacked from behind was that there weren't supposed to be any more rebel fighters to be able to flank him.

There. That right there, that is how to dissipate the sacrilege. Thank you for that.


Other than that Vader's appearence in the movie was to kill off Obi-wan and introduce him as a major threat for the later films

Sure, but that's his narrative role in the overall story.

[adanedhel9]

I think part of his role was as proof that the Force was not exclusive to the good guys. If Obi-wan and Luke were the only Force users in the movie, then the Force would have become The Weapon of Good. With Vader in place, the Force becomes a more generic tool. Which, in terms of symbolism and imagery, dilutes the Force, but improves its role in the good/evil dichotomy.

[Zeta Kai]

Although my 2¢ will probably fail to bring you any comfort, I must respond thusly: Darth Vader's role in the original Star Wars was entirely one of style of substance. He's the big dark bogeyman, the hound that Tarkin sets upon the protagonists, the audiences' cue to boo & hiss & not think that the Empire deserves pity for being set upon by anti-government terrorists. Vader is the face of Big Brother, even if O'Brien/Tarkin is the one actually pulling the strings.

[Tam_OConnor]

Heresy? This is blasphemy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0rwG39Jzk) Edit: Bit of a language warning on the video.

Other than that? Tarkin looks cadaverous and evil, but the inhumanity of Vader gives him +2 on Intimidate checks.

[thegurullamen]

Tarkin wasn't the BBEG, he was just a placeholder, the capt. of the ESS Death Star. He was just a basic baddie. Vader, on the other hand, was a colorful, forceful, literally magical bad guy who served as an opposite to the two protagonists, Obi and Luke.

I digress. Tarkin wasn't so much holding Vader's leash as Vader was observing the proper protocol. You don't murder a man on his own ship, even if you outrank him in a Sith-run Empire. Well, not without cause. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouHaveFailedMe) Vader restrained himself and obeyed Tarkin while on the Death Star because it was Tarkin's ship and dammit all, LE counts for nothing if you don't observe protocol.

It's easy to see that they could have been equals or that Tarkin had an ace in the hole (how else do you come to run the single most powerful force in the galaxy unless you're chummy with the higher-ups?) But as for outranking Vader? No. Just no. Vader walked around that place like he owned it and spoke to Tarkin with contempt in front of both of their underlings. I'd argue Vader never agreed to do anything Tarkin said that Vader wasn't already willing to do.

My (current) guess in view of all of this evidence is that Vader is an admiral figure; powerful, but not in direct command of the immediate situation unless he wanted to be.

[Dienekes]

Technically Vader did outrank Tarkin, though it's not really depicted in TNH. The best we get is the implied "As you wish," instead of "As you command"

But i digress. The discomfort thing doesn't really hold true as he was obviously was struggling to breathe and thus could kill him. I think this shows how evil and powerful he was. Here was the man who was obviously high ranking and powerful, and Vader just starts choking him magically. Without thought of consequences or anything. Only when he is ordered to stop does he, still wistfully so that the everyone knows that he's doing it because he can, and that one way or the other it didn't really matter to him.

Overall he exudes pure apathy to everything around him. Sure he gets angry once or twice but he is a literal interpretation of "the machine" that is the empire. He just doesn't care who he hurts or kills as long as it doesn't trouble him. The only one who seems able to reign him in is Tarkin.

So for TNH and the entire series in general he is depicted as The Dragon of the Empire.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Very simple

Because ANH was filmed in a time where film writers and storytellers knew one big truth:

The unseen is much more powerful than the seen

It is implied that Vader is powerful. It is implied that Vader is the darkest thing you can ever encounter. He is the bogeyman you don't want to face. He is the one you flee at all cost. You don't face him, you avoid him. He has killed the Jedi Knights...

When power and danger is hinted rather than merely throw thousands of dollar in CGI and martial art combat, it sometimes has much more impact in the subconscious of the viewers, because you play on their imagination.

[Dervag]

No, it didn't, because the argument hinges on Vader being sheer awesome in ANH, which the sacrilege tells me he wasn't.First of all, I suggest you poll people who actually saw the movie in theaters when it came out thirty years ago. My understanding is that most of them were quite impressed by Vader.

Vader's awesomeness was established in part by cinematography (camera angles, menacing music). That's a very real part of a movie- it's not all about the script and the plot. You can create very different scenes by filming the same event from different angles or with different background sound.
________

Another part of it came from the opening scene. This happens before you even really know who is who; all you know about the plot are the big expository words floating into space at the beginning. You see Leia's ship getting chased down by this enormous battleship, getting stopped, and boarded by a team of stormtroopers. Remember that at this point, the stormtroopers look like badass special forces types, not random mooks. They are dangerous and well armed. They blast through the Rebel ship easily, taking few casualties.

Then Darth Vader shows up. He is obviously the leader of this detachment of elite troops. He knows exactly what he's looking for, and he's not at all afraid or reluctant to kill people to get it. He's big, he's armored, he's tough looking, and the first human interaction we see Vader have involves him picking a guy up by the neck and choking him to death.

This is supposed to establish Vader as a dangerous man, independent of any skills he may have with weapons, vehicles, or the Force. You are probably familiar with the saying that there are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people. Vader is a dangerous person. You can fight him, you can delay him, you can maybe even beat him or outwit him, but you can't discount or ignore him because he'll lightsaber you in half or break your neck.
_______

Vader is not obviously portrayed as the Emperor's right hand man, but he doesn't need to be. He's clearly regarded as being of roughly equal rank to high Imperial officers by those very officers. Maybe he's just the Imperial equivalent of a large unit of secret police... still kind of frightening, in my book. Also, if that were true, then Empire would probably have more people like him, which is a very alarming thought.
______

Now, you might come away from all this thinking Vader sucks because he is not effective (he is often foiled by the heroes, or by bad luck). But in real life, dangerous badass types sometimes do fail due to bad luck.
______


And it's not about being "stubborn," the question was stated: given a viewing of it in 1977, when this information would not have been available, what is Darth Vader's role really about?In 1977, just knowing what happens in the movie, you know that Vader is ruthless. He's competent at just about everything he attempts, even if he isn't always successful. He nearly defeats the Rebel fighters attacking the Death Star, which would have spelled certain death for the Rebellion and certain victory for his side.

On top of all that, he's physically tough enough to beat Obi-Wan Kenobi in single combat. Even if Obi-Wan is right about the whole "if you strike me down..." thing, the point remains that Obi-Wan would probably have killed him if he could. And Obi-Wan is no pushover; violent savages flee from his very approach, and he can teach Luke to deflect bullets in a matter of no more than a few days. If he can teach Luke to parry blaster shots with his eyes shut, how much more than that does he know?

In 1977, no one knew the full answer to that question.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Here's the simple fact:

You're right, Darth Vader is unimportant in A New Hope.

This is because his status as the Chosen One or Anakin Skywalker has not been retconned in yet.

He was never supposed to be an important minion until after A New Hope was filmed and work started on Empire Strikes Back.

[Oregano]

Well Vader's role was significantly cut as was Obi-Wans as the plot of A New Hope starts about half way through Lucas originally intended. A lot of the badass was cut down.

Also Star Wars is the Heros Journey, a fairy tale. Vader is the invincible black knight, even being shot by the Millenium Falcon and drifting off into space didn't kill him and that was clear in the original film.

[Jerthanis]

Here's the simple fact:

You're right, Darth Vader is unimportant in A New Hope.

This is because his status as the Chosen One or Anakin Skywalker has not been retconned in yet.

He was never supposed to be an important minion until after A New Hope was filmed and work started on Empire Strikes Back.

Darth Vater means "Dark Father" in German, so either it's an enormous coincidence, or you're wrong.

[afroakuma]

Untrue. Dunkel would be "dark." And Dunkel Vater wouldn't be in the least bit intimidating. Furthermore, the name in the original script was used for a normal Imperial general.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Darth Vater means "Dark Father" in German, so either it's an enormous coincidence, or you're wrong.

No it doesn't. That's a popular rumor but like all rumors it isn't true until it is checked.

Vader means father in Dutch.

Darth means NOTHING in Dutch.

George Lucas DOES NOT SPEAK DUTCH.

There are drafts of Star Wars that are nothing like the finished product that are available on the Internet.

The name Darth Vader first appears in these drafts for a minor character who isn't a Sith (or whatever prototype Sith were in this draft) but just an Imperial General (another character who was cut entirely, Prince Valorum has a role closer to Darth Vader's in the final film), the Luke character is called Annikin Starkiller (Obi Wan is called Luke Skywalker oddly enough) who has a father who actually appears in the story but dies early, called Kane Starkiller.

The name Darth Vader was later re-used by Lucas for a differant character (the mentor character being called Luke is clear proof that this was done) but when Lucas came up with it then it was for an unimportant character.

edit:

Untrue. Dunkel would be "dark." And Dunkel Vater wouldn't be in the least bit intimidating. Furthermore, the name in the original script was used for a normal Imperial general.

ninja'd

But saying "original" script isn't acurate since there are a lot of drafts and I don't think Vader appears in the first one.

[Trog]

Heresy Alert!!!

I was watching A New Hope again the other day, when all of a sudden a thought so chilling, so wrong, so sacreligious came to me that I knew I had to have my sin purged by the benevolent light of answers.

Assuming this is 1977, and the first movie exists in a vacuum, devoid of EU, sequels, prequels or the Star Wars Holiday Special, what in fact is Vader's narrative function?

Consider:

• He is depicted as a specialist of a weapon the hero owns but never uses in combat.

• He is depicted as a right-hand man, not the Big Bad.

• He wields his dramatic magical power all of once, and only against a fellow Imperial. For that matter, so does Obi-wan.

• He doesn't actually confront or even really notice the heroes in the Death Star, and apart from Leia, doesn't even know their names.

• His interaction with Leia could have been filled by any ranking officer, or even Tarkin himself.

• After making Obi-wan vanish, the sum of his response to this extremely unusual happening is to trod on his robe a few times, then stalk off, then stalk back, have the doors cut him off from whatever he was about to do, and not express the slightest concern that Obi-wan may have pulled a fast one.

• Despite being set up to fight Luke (for having killed his father), Luke never actually encounters him.

• In the end sequence, he randomly shows up as the ace enemy pilot, which is not brought up earlier and seems fairly improbable given how utterly breakable TIE fighters are shown to be.

• Also in the end sequence, due to the trench setup he can't be attacked or even faced by Luke; rather, Luke simply has to evade Faceless Tenacious TIE #27.

• While closing on Luke, he falls prey to the same tactic he was using, which is obviously a dangerous enough proposition that he should have had some cleverer, more on-the-ball reaction than "WHAT???"

Someone please purge the sacrilege from my mind, with good, comforting answers. :smallfrown:

None of this constitutes heresy. Let's say that Star Wars IV came out for the very first time this weekend. Push the entire release dates back 30 years or so, in other words. These would all be legitimate concerns. By the way I -did- see the movie in the theaters as a kid on its original release. Dozens of times, in fact. Did the writing matter to me very much? Like the answer you will get from most 7 year olds the answer was: "Huh? What writing? I want action figures!"

Vader may not have appeared to be in charge, as it were, of the death star but he did serve the function of "the heavy" meaning he was the most intimidating guy in a fight and was there to be aggressive and powerful and scary. All things he accomplished well enough to become iconic even before any of the other movies were filmed and released.

As to the lack of drama in the fight between him and obi-wan you can blame that on the time period in which it was filmed. The epic lightsaber duels in episodes II and III are the result of the movie-going public's desire for more intensity and showmanship in the fights (a la John Woo, Jackie Chan, Kill Bill, etc.).

The lack of a direct confrontation between Vader and Luke was probably unavoidable. Luke was woefully unprepared to confront Vader. Having Vader be in one of the ships gunning for Luke helped establish his escape from the explosion of the Death Star and ramp up the tension for the scene. Blame the lack of a good dogfight on the special effects budget limitations and the period of time when it was filmed, again.

Also the lack of hot Luke on Vader action totally sets the movie up for a sequel as fans will want to see that happen. Probably a handy thing to do if you are a director/writer/producer if you want future employment.

Anyways that's how I see it. Ultimately, if your feelings about seeing flaws in the movie bothers you, that's something you'll have to settle from within. Not our job to fix that for you or make up your mind for you. Not everyone likes the Star Wars movies, you know. *shrug*

[Haven]

Vader's awesomeness was established in part by cinematography (camera angles, menacing music). That's a very real part of a movie- it's not all about the script and the plot. You can create very different scenes by filming the same event from different angles or with different background sound.

This, and


Although my 2¢ will probably fail to bring you any comfort, I must respond thusly: Darth Vader's role in the original Star Wars was entirely one of style of substance.

this. Assuming that's supposed to be style over substance, which: if you have a problem accepting that, Star Wars may not be the franchise for you.

[Dervag]

The lack of a direct confrontation between Vader and Luke was probably unavoidable. Luke was woefully unprepared to confront Vader. Having Vader be in one of the ships gunning for Luke helped establish his escape from the explosion of the Death Star and ramp up the tension for the scene. Blame the lack of a good dogfight on the special effects budget limitations and the period of time when it was filmed, again.Also, Luke was flying a torpedo bombing mission. Dogfighting would be a very dangerous exercise, even assuming he had the piloting skills to do it. And that his X-Wing could dogfight TIE fighters, which is something we now take for granted but wasn't obvious just from watching the first movie. Sure, they can cover each other, and they can shoot down TIEs with their blaster cannon, but that doesn't prove they have the speed and agility to engage a skilled TIE pilot.

In fact, until at least Episode VI we never see any evidence that X-Wings are effective dogfighters. Maybe not even then, I'm not sure. Most of their screen time has them going up against capital ships, or being used as escorts and personal transports. Given that the Rebels obviously have a shoestring budget, it's quite possible that the best escort fighter they have available is a really bad fighter.

[afroakuma]

Assuming that's supposed to be style over substance, which: if you have a problem accepting that, Star Wars may not be the franchise for you.

Oh, no, I think you (and a couple of others) have misunderstood: I love Star Wars. It's one of my favorite series (the original trilogy, at least...)

The thing is, as a young child I was first shown Return of the Jedi, since my father is an idiot. So for me, Vader was always the right hand of the Emperor, the Dark Lord given deference by all Imperial forces, the scary sorcerer with the red lightsaber and the mad dueling skills. It was only this latest viewing of the first movie and the stray thought of, "In isolation, he's missing a lot..." that got me to this point in the first place.

[KillianHawkeye]

• He is depicted as a specialist of a weapon the hero owns but never uses in combat.

• He wields his dramatic magical power all of once, and only against a fellow Imperial. For that matter, so does Obi-wan.

• Despite being set up to fight Luke (for having killed his father), Luke never actually encounters him.

Okay, these points reinforce Vader as being the "dark mirror" of the main heroes (Luke and Obi-wan). He is the same as they are, with the same powers and skills, only he matches their goodness with his own evilness. This point is made by Obi-wan during Luke's brief crash course in the backstory and the nature of the Force.


• He is depicted as a right-hand man, not the Big Bad.

• He doesn't actually confront or even really notice the heroes in the Death Star, and apart from Leia, doesn't even know their names.

These points are more definititive of Vader's role in the story of A New Hope. In this movie, he is an aggressive, dangerous, unpredictable, and uncaring killer with no conscience or remorse. In essence, evil incarnate, completely lacking any notable "human" traits.

His job is to deprive Luke of his mentor, Obi-wan. From Vader's perspective, all he cares about is recovering the Death Star plans from Princess Leia and destroying the Rebellion. Aside from Obi-wan, the other heroes are too weak and irrelevant for him to be bothered with. Which is a good thing for them, since Vader would absolutely destroy any of them without even trying. Obi-wan was the only one who might have stood against him and the audience knew it. (This is also why Vader diverted his attention to Obi-wan as soon as he detected him. As soon as he had dealt with that situation, he immediately resumed his activities, never realizing that Obi-wan was merely acting as a decoy by then.)

Finally, despite the fact that Tarkin is clearly in command of the Death Star, Vader succeeds in being the Big Bad by sheer virtue of being bigger and badder than everybody else combined. He's the only one who people visibly fear. The fact that he's the only bad guy to survive cements this fact in the audience's mind.


• After making Obi-wan vanish, the sum of his response to this extremely unusual happening is to trod on his robe a few times, then stalk off, then stalk back, have the doors cut him off from whatever he was about to do, and not express the slightest concern that Obi-wan may have pulled a fast one.

The way I always interpreted this scene was that Vader was checking to make sure Obi-wan was truly dead and gone, after which he emotionlessly turns back to the next matter on his agenda. As for getting cut off by the closing doors, he did that on purpose. Remember that his plan was to allow the heroes to escape so that they could lead him to their secret headquarters. He just has to make it look like he's giving pursuit. Or perhaps he just didn't anticipate Luke shooting the door controls.

As for Obi-wan pulling a fast one? Come on. Of course we know that Obi-wan comes back in a spiritual form after his death, but Vader could not have known about that nor would he have believed it. He simply lacks the human imaginative capacity to believe in any form of life after death. Everybody else he has ever killed has stayed that way.


• His interaction with Leia could have been filled by any ranking officer, or even Tarkin himself.

Actually, Vader's interaction with Leia is a point of contrast between himself and Tarkin. Tarkin believes that Leia can be tricked or coerced into betraying the Rebel Alliance, while Vader states that she will never knowingly do so. As for that role being filled by another officer? Well, Tarkin and Vader are basically the only Imperials in the movie who have faces. (I know there's a room full of generals in one scene, but we never see any of them again. And the only one who really says anything gets choked by Vader.)


• In the end sequence, he randomly shows up as the ace enemy pilot, which is not brought up earlier and seems fairly improbable given how utterly breakable TIE fighters are shown to be.

• Also in the end sequence, due to the trench setup he can't be attacked or even faced by Luke; rather, Luke simply has to evade Faceless Tenacious TIE #27.

Vader's reapperance in the trench scene happens for two reasons. First is to keep him in the movie and set up his survival. Second is, since the Rebel ships are too small to be destroyed by turbolasers, fighters need to be launched, and Vader takes it upon himself to lead the attack since he is the best Imperial pilot. Remember that Obi-wan recalls his great piloting skill earlier in the movie. Also note that Vader's ship was supposed to be equipped with shields, unlike regular TIEs, which helps explain how his ship survived.

As far as his final interaction with Luke, it again does two things. It allows Vader to comment on how strong the Force is in Luke, which is an important point of Luke's character. (And if Darth Vader says somebody is strong, they must be really strong.) It is also the last in a long showcase of actions designed to prove that Vader is EVIL. It shows Vader fighting unfairly, attacking from behind where the Rebels have no shields. He just comes up behind them and picks them off one by one. All of this happens without Luke even needing to know exactly who it is behind him.


• While closing on Luke, he falls prey to the same tactic he was using, which is obviously a dangerous enough proposition that he should have had some cleverer, more on-the-ball reaction than "WHAT???"

First of all, it isn't quite the same tactic. The Millennium Falcon comes from out of freakin' nowhere, which is genuinely surprising to Vader. Secondly, Vader maintains his cool. It is, rather, his wingman who panics and crashes into Vader's ship, causing him to fly out of control and into deep space where he doesn't regain control of his ship until after the Death Star has been destroyed. This is totally not Vader's fault and is simply bad luck/destiny screwing him over. This is a good defeat for Vader because it is really only a temporary setback, and was the result of bad luck rather than incompetence on his part.

---===---

Okay, I hope some part of all that is helpful. I tried to justify things from both a meta-story perspective and Vader's own in-character perspective wherever possible.

[afroakuma]

Okay, these points reinforce Vader as being the "dark mirror" of the main heroes (Luke and Obi-wan). He is the same as they are, with the same powers and skills, only he matches their goodness with his own evilness. This point is made by Obi-wan during Luke's brief crash course in the backstory and the nature of the Force.

But Luke has no powers or skills. He doesn't ever use the lightsaber except to practice with the little zapper droid, and never actively uses the Force.


His job is to deprive Luke of his mentor, Obi-wan.

That's a very good point. I think that may actually be the key. Thank you!


The fact that he's the only bad guy to survive cements this fact in the audience's mind.

Kind of after the fact, though.


The way I always interpreted this scene was that Vader was checking to make sure Obi-wan was truly dead and gone, after which he emotionlessly turns back to the next matter on his agenda.

Still: the guy disappeared. Past lightsaberings very demonstrably did not cause disappearance. One would think Vader might have held at lest some minor concern.


Or perhaps he just didn't anticipate Luke shooting the door controls.

Yeah, probably just that.


Of course we know that Obi-wan comes back in a spiritual form after his death, but Vader could not have known about that nor would he have believed it.

Sure, but he vanished. No corpse. Nothing. And right beforehand, he'd started some weird meditation and stated that Darth would be playing right into his hands. Vader may not be imaginative, but he can probably do enough of the math to realize that things may not have added up entirely as planned.


Vader takes it upon himself to lead the attack since he is the best Imperial pilot. Remember that Obi-wan recalls his great piloting skill earlier in the movie.

Within the scope of the first film only: no he doesn't. He says that Anakin Skywalker, a completely different character, had great piloting skill.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

That's what you get for overthinking things Afro.

[afroakuma]

Really though. That said, I still vastly enjoy them. And Vader is still umpity kinds of awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Oregano]

Really though. That said, I still vastly enjoy them. And Vader is still umpity kinds of awesome. :smallbiggrin:

About Obi Wan, Vader would have felt his force disperse or something and thus deduced he's dead especially considering hiding your force capabilities is a EU thing. He did kill Obi Wan and he knew that but he was still confused as to where his body went, hence kicking the cloak but then he realised there was more important things going on.

[KillianHawkeye]

But Luke has no powers or skills. He doesn't ever use the lightsaber except to practice with the little zapper droid, and never actively uses the Force.

While this is technically true, it is still obvious that Obi-wan is taking Luke as his protege. They have a clear mentor-student relationship. And they state that Luke has a strong potential, such that with the proper training he will have the same skills and powers. The only thing is that he doesn't have time to actually learn anything.

I always thought it was funny that Luke gets so emotional about Obi-wan's death, when if you think about it, they only new each other for barely a day at most.


Still: the guy disappeared. Past lightsaberings very demonstrably did not cause disappearance. One would think Vader might have held at lest some minor concern.

Sure, but he vanished. No corpse. Nothing. And right beforehand, he'd started some weird meditation and stated that Darth would be playing right into his hands. Vader may not be imaginative, but he can probably do enough of the math to realize that things may not have added up entirely as planned.

I still maintain that Vader can't conceptualize the possibility of an afterlife, based on his portrayal as an uncaring, (nearly) emotionless avatar of evil. From what we can see, he seems to satisfy himself that Obi-wan is dead, or at least gone (literally). I guess he figured that was good enough. Not that we have any way of knowing what exactly is going on inside his head at that point.


Within the scope of the first film only: no he doesn't. He says that Anakin Skywalker, a completely different character, had great piloting skill.

Ack! You are totally right! This is what I get for posting and not sleeping. :smallsigh::smallsigh:

Still, I think the points about him being the most badass and the fact that he has a different (and presumably better) ship makes the whole sequence plausible enough. And like I said, it keeps Vader in the movie. And there had to be some kind of complication to make the battle more dramatic and interesting. It's also really the only kind of victory the heroes can get against a villain with as much implied power as Vader has: i.e. merely surviving long enough to get bailed out of danger is an accomplishment at this point.

[afroakuma]

I always thought it was funny that Luke gets so emotional about Obi-wan's death, when if you think about it, they only new each other for barely a day at most.

I always figured they'd met a few times before, and it was 'cause the last link to his entire life had just been cut down.

[KillianHawkeye]

I hadn't gotten the impression that they'd really met, just that he knew of him by reputation. And old stories his uncle used to tell him, or something along those lines. I guess it could go either way, though.

[Oregano]

May be the force had intertwined their destinies?:smallwink:

And I think it was established they did vaguely know each other but hadn't really spoke or anything.

[SmartAlec]

I hadn't gotten the impression that they'd really met, just that he knew of him by reputation. And old stories his uncle used to tell him, or something along those lines. I guess it could go either way, though.

Luke recognises him on sight.

"Ben Kenobi? Am I glad to see you!"

[KillianHawkeye]

You can recognize someone based on reputation. I mean, it's not like there's a lot of people wandering the desert in Jedi-style robes. But maybe you're right. Lack of sleep strikes again! :smallannoyed:

[afroakuma]

For some reason, every time I look at the thread title I am tempted to change it to "Come And See The Violence Inherent In The System!"

I am feeling rather reassured, though; I've pieced together an answer from multiple respondents.

[Attilargh]

I'm a bit late to the party, so I'll just make a few comments.


Okay, these points reinforce Vader as being the "dark mirror" of the main heroes (Luke and Obi-wan). He is the same as they are, with the same powers and skills, only he matches their goodness with his own evilness.
Not really a dark mirror of what they are now, as as afroakuma pointed out, they don't really show much powers or skills. Rather, it's foreshadowing: "This dude killed Luke's father. They will fight. Luke shall be as badass as this dude by the end of things." If you want to get deep, he's also the image of what Luke could become, if he made the wrong choices.


Past lightsaberings very demonstrably did not cause disappearance. One would think Vader might have held at lest some minor concern.
Remember, there had been no past lightsaberings. Back when I first watched the movie, I faintly recall thinking that disappearing is a Jedi way to go.

[Dervag]

(This is also why Vader diverted his attention to Obi-wan as soon as he detected him. As soon as he had dealt with that situation, he immediately resumed his activities, never realizing that Obi-wan was merely acting as a decoy by then.)

The way I always interpreted this scene was that Vader was checking to make sure Obi-wan was truly dead and gone, after which he emotionlessly turns back to the next matter on his agenda.Sounds right. Moreover, look at it from Vader's point of view as a tactical problem. If Obi-Wan really did have some kind of "my death is only the beginning" thing going, there's nothing Vader can do about it. What's he going to do, kill him again? Burn the body?

Vader is busy. His troops are in the middle of a firefight as they herd the rebels back to the Millenium Falcon. He's got to make sure that goes according to plan, then take care of any decisions that need to be made in the mopup and explain his plan with the tracking device to Tarkin. He's got rebels to crush and people to oppress.

He doesn't have time to spend hours figuring out why Obi-Wan Kenobi's body vanished.
________


As far as his final interaction with Luke, it again does two things. It allows Vader to comment on how strong the Force is in Luke, which is an important point of Luke's character. (And if Darth Vader says somebody is strong, they must be really strong.)Also, we don't really know how powerful Luke is in the Force based on this movie. Does he have the potential to become as wise as Kenobi? As powerful and dangerous as, God help us, Vader? We don't know. The exposition Vader provides by saying "the Force is strong with this one" helps fill in that gap.


This is totally not Vader's fault and is simply bad luck/destiny screwing him over. This is a good defeat for Vader because it is really only a temporary setback, and was the result of bad luck rather than incompetence on his part.Of course, Vader was probably making a mistake flying side by side with two wingmen in such a confined space...
__________


But Luke has no powers or skills. He doesn't ever use the lightsaber except to practice with the little zapper droid, and never actively uses the Force.No, but it's clear that Obi-Wan taught him something, and that he's probably going to try and learn some more.

With respect to the "dark mirror" thing, Luke's only real talent is his piloting skills at this point. Vader turns out to be a very skilled pilot, an ace even (if he wasn't before, he is now, having made "ace in a day" by scoring more than five fighter kills). In that sense, Vader is a mirror to Luke in that he possesses the only significant skill Luke has... and also the skills of Luke's mentor.

Vader is a dark mirror to Luke's personality as much as to his skills. Luke is naive, emotional, and idealistic. Vader is experienced. The only emotion we see him express is rage. And Vader is the embodiment of all the evil Luke's idealism is rebelling against.
________


Still: the guy disappeared. Past lightsaberings very demonstrably did not cause disappearance. One would think Vader might have held at lest some minor concern.He does, but there isn't time for him to express that concern on screen except by stirring Obi-Wan's robes with his foot.
_______


While this is technically true, it is still obvious that Obi-wan is taking Luke as his protege. They have a clear mentor-student relationship. And they state that Luke has a strong potential, such that with the proper training he will have the same skills and powers. The only thing is that he doesn't have time to actually learn anything.

I always thought it was funny that Luke gets so emotional about Obi-wan's death, when if you think about it, they only new each other for barely a day at most.I'm pretty sure that it was more than that, if not a lot more. You're right that it's remarkable, though.

On the other hand, Obi-Wan very quickly takes Luke under his wing in the best tradition of surrogate father figures. He gives Luke access to parts of the world Luke had only dreamed of seeing, or had never even imagined. Especially with Luke's existing foster family dead, it's not surprising that he latches on to this new mentor figure. And that seeing him get bisected by Darth Vader is traumatic.


I still maintain that Vader can't conceptualize the possibility of an afterlife, based on his portrayal as an uncaring, (nearly) emotionless avatar of evil. From what we can see, he seems to satisfy himself that Obi-wan is dead, or at least gone (literally). I guess he figured that was good enough.Hey, from Vader's point of view, he must have been at least somewhat worried that Obi-Wan would jump out from behind a bush and finish what he started by the banks of that lava flow on Mustafar. For the past twenty years. Finally getting the chance to exorcise that particular ghost in his psyche probably takes priority over finding out what happened to the body.
_______


Remember, there had been no past lightsaberings. Back when I first watched the movie, I faintly recall thinking that disappearing is a Jedi way to go.Of course, we do know Vader has lightsabered many people in the past. And his body language on seeing Obi-Wan disappear expresses surprise. So even going by only Episode IV, it seems likely that whatever Obi-Wan did was something Vader had not expected, even though he has certainly killed Jedi before (we know he was instrumental in betraying the old Jedi).

[KillianHawkeye]

Not really a dark mirror of what they are now, as as afroakuma pointed out, they don't really show much powers or skills. Rather, it's foreshadowing: "This dude killed Luke's father. They will fight. Luke shall be as badass as this dude by the end of things." If you want to get deep, he's also the image of what Luke could become, if he made the wrong choices.

Vader is a dark mirror of the heroes because he is the antithesis of what Kenobi was, and what Luke is set on the course of becoming. Even without the knowledge of other Star Wars movies, it seems certain that Luke has begun the training to become a Jedi Knight, and there isn't anything that would make us think that he won't eventually accomplish that goal.

Yes, there is the "we'll have an inevitable showdown" factor, but that doesn't detract from the parallels between Vader and Luke/Obi-wan. In fact, I'd say that it enhances the duality because it's pretty obvious that the only people capable of defeating Vader are the Jedi characters. That is a classic Good vs Evil battle that doesn't get resolved in A New Hope, but is something the audience expects to happen when the later movies got made.

[hamishspence]

I liked the novel Death Star- gave a lot of Vader's point of view in the event in ANH.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader handles it a bit differently- suggesting Tarkin is actually insane.

[turkishproverb]

Remember, there had been no past lightsaberings. Back when I first watched the movie, I faintly recall thinking that disappearing is a Jedi way to go.

Wrong. The cantina. Past lightsabering, the guy didn't dissapear.

[Philistine]

Guy also didn't die, so far as we know. And guy certainly wasn't a Jedi.

[Muz]

And guy certainly wasn't a Jedi.

Not until Lucas retcons that he WAS in the live action TV show, anyway. :smallwink:

[chiasaur11]

Not until Lucas retcons that he WAS in the live action TV show, anyway. :smallwink:

So we see the storm trooper predecessors killed a NEGATIVE number of Jedi.

Thus restoring balance to the force.

[TengYt]

That's one thing I hate about the EU. According to Wookiepedia the number of Jedi that survived Order 66 has been retconned to be in the several dozens in total, through videogames, novels, comics etc. Surely such a large number would have posed much more of a threat to the Empire? I mean I know Vader and Pals steadily hunted them all down but couldn't all those Jedi organise themselves better rather than running and hiding?

[Dervag]

I don't think there's a problem.

Of the surviving Jedi, many of them were in complete isolation and in no position to pose any real threat to the Empire.

Even when the survivors did manage to link up with other survivors, they still faced major problems. Chief among them was that the more openly they acted, the more visible they were to Imperial intelligence and to Palpatine's foresight. A random hermit Jedi could hope to keep his head down for decades; a group of Jedi that met and decided to attempt a coup wouldn't do so well.

The first wave of the purges had already seen most of the leadership cadre destroyed, the Temple itself destroyed, and Palpatine working as hard as possible to make the Jedi persona non grata. Under all those disadvantages, a few guys with lightsabers just aren't going to be able to bring down a galaxy-spanning Empire. Certainly not if their identities and where they went before the purge are well known facts to the government- which they are, because the clonetroopers managed to capture the Jedi Archives.
_________

The idea that the clones manage to kill all but two of the (several hundred? thousands?) of Jedi Knights in a matter of a day or two once the purge is declared strikes me as unrealistic. With the war being prosecuted so firmly, most of the Jedi would have been off Coruscant, where Vader's attack on the Temple couldn't reach them. Surely some of them would have been on detached duty away from clonetrooper units; some of the masters would have managed to survive the attack as Obi-Wan or Yoda did.

One of the things it's easiest to forget when talking about Star Wars is just how big galaxies are. For plot simplicity, people tend to want to boil it all down to a few significant planets and a few dozen significant characters (at most). Within the movies themselves that's reasonable, but that doesn't mean the movies portray everything significant that's going on.
_________

Of course, if content creation in the EU proceeds at the same pace it has for the past several years, this could become a problem eventually. The total number of Jedi survivors of the purge should still be a tiny minority of the total order. 100 survivors only make sense if there were something like 1000 Jedi in the first place.

And since the canonical size of the old Jedi order is conveniently unstated but implied to be on the order of a thousand, I agree that there can be too many survivors portrayed in the EU.

[BlueWizard]

Actually I thought it was about moisture farming.